Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Griff_Goodbeard 12-06-05, 08:33 AM	... is located here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20051205a). After reading this preview I'm even more excited than I was before about this book. I was hoping that they wouldn't use PGtE to pack a whole bunch of overpowered crunch into Eberron, and from the preview it seems like this book will be fluff focused. I loved the sample section on the Frostfell (I'm DM'ing a party that is planning an expidition there so this preveiw couldn't have come at a better time :D ). Great Preview!
Jagermeister 12-06-05, 10:37 AM	The Restless Wanderer looks fairly "blah" . That sort of fluff is useless to me. The title "Restless Wanderer" says enough to spur my own imagination. I didn't need the paragraphs that followed to vaguely tell me what a "Restless Wanderer" is, with sparse mention of anything Eberron specific to boot. Most of the description here sounds more suited to a "General Character Building Guide" than an Eberron sourcebook. If the book wastes space on stuff like that and doesn't give us more actual Eberron flunchy goodness, I'm going to be disappointed. Some of the Frostfell stuff looks interesting...some of it looks like I wouldn't use it in my games. I don't want Ice Elves, Ice Gnomes, or whatever the rest of that rot. I'm all for fleshing the location out as the possible origin of the Dwarves however, as that keeps to what has been mentioned in previous sourcebooks. It honestly looks like they tried to drop too much stuff on Frostfell, without thinking about how it pertained to pre-existing contexts. All in all, if this is a hint of what the rest of the book is going to be like, I'm bracing for a disappointment. I don't want general character archetypes with paragraphs rambling on with scarcely an Eberron subject mentioned. At the moment, I am trying to forget about this preview and just look forward to the new feats, prestige classes, spells, magic items "along with a pile of information about people, places, organizations, and more -- all from the perspective of what a character could/would/should know." As always, I'll hold my judgement until I can read it thoroughly.
cancerousmango 12-06-05, 10:56 AM	[QUOTE=Jagermeister] All in all, if this is a hint of what the rest of the book is going to be like, I'm bracing for a disappointment. I don't want general character archetypes with paragraphs rambling on with scarcely an Eberron subject mentioned. QUOTE] I don't know, that first chapter with the character building guide looks to be very brief, with the fluffy goodness encompassing most of the book, which is 100x more useful to me than yet another prestige class. I think this is a good trend that the eberron books are trying to start, more fluff, less crunch.
polt 12-06-05, 10:59 AM	I H A T E this preview. Artic versions of the normal races? That sounds like subraces to me. And did I miss something, or does it describe races living on Frostfell? Also, the archetype is very lame. Anyone with a couple of braincells could figure that one out themselves.
Jagermeister 12-06-05, 11:11 AM	[QUOTE=Jagermeister] All in all, if this is a hint of what the rest of the book is going to be like, I'm bracing for a disappointment. I don't want general character archetypes with paragraphs rambling on with scarcely an Eberron subject mentioned. QUOTE] I don't know, that first chapter with the character building guide looks to be very brief, with the fluffy goodness encompassing most of the book, which is 100x more useful to me than yet another prestige class. I think this is a good trend that the eberron books are trying to start, more fluff, less crunch. More Eberron specific fluff is great. But the "Restless Wanderer" was just General Fluff, and we don't need that do we? Not in an Eberron book at least.
cancerousmango 12-06-05, 11:13 AM	I H A T E this preview. Artic versions of the normal races? That sounds like subraces to me. And did I miss something, or does it describe races living on Frostfell? Also, the archetype is very lame. Anyone with a couple of braincells could figure that one out themselves. It is interesting to note that the earlier previews summarized it as saying "What does an orc from the shadow marches know about the elves of Aerneal" which would be intensely useful in most campaigns. When I was reading the bit on Frostfell, I was thinking, "Dang, one expedition and suddenly every PC knows this? Shouldn't the PC's know next to nothing about frostfell?" I do think a chapter of every nation and what they know about the world and how to play that race would be more interesting. How to play a Mror Dwarf...
cancerousmango 12-06-05, 11:17 AM	[QUOTE=cancerousmango] More Eberron specific fluff is great. But the "Restless Wanderer" was just General Fluff, and we don't need that do we? Not in an Eberron book at least. No sir, that's why I praised the lame first chapter for its supposed brevity and shoved it offstage to let the second chapter shine.
Jagermeister 12-06-05, 11:19 AM	It is interesting to note that the earlier previews summarized it as saying "What does an orc from the shadow marches know about the elves of Aerneal" which would be intensely useful in most campaigns. When I was reading the bit on Frostfell, I was thinking, "Dang, one expedition and suddenly every PC knows this? Shouldn't the PC's know next to nothing about frostfell?" I do think a chapter of every nation and what they know about the world and how to play that race would be more interesting. How to play a Mror Dwarf... I agree. The earlier preview made me excited about the book. It sounded like good Eberron specific crunch and fluff, or flunch as some folks say. This new preview just frustrates me.
cancerousmango 12-06-05, 11:26 AM	It's almost as if they want it to be a DM's-only book, but they are doing that stupid marketing strategy of "there's only one DM per group and 4-5 players, so let's target everything at the player" but they can't think of anything good for players so they market this book at players even though it seems more suited to the DM.
Hellcow 12-06-05, 12:36 PM	I didn't write either of these sections, and honestly, I think the Frostfell section was a strange choice to use as an example; I'm guessing it was chosen because it's the holiday season and hey, it's a snowy place. As for who the book is useful to, I do think it has something to offer both players and DMs. For example, the section I wrote on the Dreaming Dark is aimed at players: here's what you can expect to have to deal with when facing the Dreaming Dark, here's a psionic power kalashtar psywarriors developed for fighting it, here's what you know (using a Knowledge skill DC table). Of course, that information can be just as useful to a DM: What DO they know? And did you consider these common tactics? The Knowledge DC table is a necessary evil. Yes, if you read it, YOU know everything there. But you also know that your character should not, unless he could make the indicated check. Personally, I would have prefered a tabled based on ranks of skill as opposed to check DC, so when you open the book you immediately know "My character knows that" or "No he doesn't." This is a little more complicated... but if you have one rank in Knowledge (the planes) you don't know the info that requires a DC 30 check. The ECS takes things that are secret and just throws them out there. This does provide some rare information on the Knowledge tables, but it also tells you "This may be secret to you..." And it allows both player and DM to say "Sorry, that's not common knowledge." Personally, I think that's a preferable to be able to say "This is what the average guy on the street knows about the Dreaming Dark, this is what the sage knows" then to have no such guidelines. Could the Knowledge tables be saved for a special "DM's Guide to Eberron" and doled out to the PC through the DMs? Sure, but WotC's not going to make such a book... and the bulk of the information is general knowledge and character options. My suggestion is to pick it up and flip through it. I'm certainly proud of the work I did for it, and I think there's information people will be glad to have (like more on the lesser druid sects). But that doesn't mean it will be a book for everyone.
MrFilthyIke 12-06-05, 01:10 PM	Don't worry about defending the book Keith, there are some people that are never happy. I always reserve judgement for when I have the book in my hands (I buy Eberron sight unseen, and have only been let down in that I think EVERY book should be 365+ pages :D ).
Flame_Drake 12-06-05, 01:17 PM	I H A T E this preview. Artic versions of the normal races? That sounds like subraces to me. And did I miss something, or does it describe races living on Frostfell? Also, the archetype is very lame. Anyone with a couple of braincells could figure that one out themselves. I just going to quote what I said on the other thread dealing with this issue. Am I annoyed that they put all of those subraces in? A little. Do I have any doubts as to the quality of this book. No. How'd I know people would bring this up? I think in terms of the human cultures and the I dwarves both make sence. The otherrs? Meh. Its creating options. Keith's said all along that we could include the three bazillion subraces of elves if we wanted, there'd be a place for them. That's what I see this to be. As long as they don't continue to support this (through say, NPCs) I think its fine. Also place yea in thou Infernal Bovine, for he doth pen thy tome. With his Colven Hoof he shalt smote they who oppose him, and they shall feel his divine wrath for his hatred of the thrice cursed subraces :shifty: In all seriousness, I think whether this was an honest mistake, or a purposeful inclusion, it amounts to the same thing, a harmless passage that doesn't compramise the overall integraty of the campain. That's my two cents anyhow. Drake
Isran_Imrador 12-06-05, 02:46 PM	I liked that Preview! A map of Frostfell, Great! :) Hmm Everice.... :D Isran
ekomega 12-06-05, 06:50 PM	I like that the map of the Frostfell had practically nothing on it. I disliked all the subraces. Neanderthals? Give me a break. Ancient elven ice castles? It's not enough that the elves have a continent and a rich history? I like that the book is mostly informative fluff. I dislike that they decided to make two chapters, one 15 pages and the other 100+ pages. That's retarded. It as well be one chapter, with the 15 pages as an introduction or preface. Then the book can open with "Chapter One" and end in the same chapter. I'm taking a wait and see approach with this one, too. I was going to recommend it for my players, but not after the preview.
Flame_Drake 12-06-05, 07:25 PM	I disliked all the subraces. Neanderthals? Give me a break. Ancient elven ice castles? It's not enough that the elves have a continent and a rich history? The thing is that this preveiw is saying "this is how the book Frostburn could fit into Eberron", which is something that Keith's has already repeat numerous times and the preveiw hasn't even been up for 24 hours. This not a be all end all decision to include these in the campian if you want to. I am truely sorry if I sound like a jerk, but this is two pages of the book and people seem to be judging the entire thing as a complete failure just by that and its really frustrating. Drake
Griff_Goodbeard 12-06-05, 07:32 PM	I like that the map of the Frostfell had practically nothing on it. Agreed, I'm glad they're finally giving us some info on the Frostfelland plenty of room to make it our own. I disliked all the subraces. Neanderthals? Give me a break. Ancient elven ice castles? It's not enough that the elves have a continent and a rich history? I have to agree with you in regards the the elves, but I thought the fluff in Frostburn about Neanderthals was well written, and they're fing a home in my Eberron. I like Uldra's and Glacer Dwarves too. I won't be using any of the other "sub" races, but I'm not going to cry because they devoted a half a page to where these races might fit in. I also like that they stuck in Levistus as a rajah, it makes a lot of sense to me. I like that the book is mostly informative fluff. I dislike that they decided to make two chapters, one 15 pages and the other 100+ pages. That's retarded. It as well be one chapter, with the 15 pages as an introduction or preface. Then the book can open with "Chapter One" and end in the same chapter. I really couldn't care less how many chapters there are, as long as the content is good. It's almost as if they want it to be a DM's-only book, but they are doing that stupid marketing strategy of "there's only one DM per group and 4-5 players, so let's target everything at the player" but they can't think of anything good for players so they market this book at players even though it seems more suited to the DM. Who says the has to be "players only" books or "DM only" books. As a DM I encourage my players to read and have an understanding of the DM's Guide, and it's not like the ECSB doesn't lay out "DM secrets" all over the place. If I want to surprise my players I do what every good DM does, get creative and make something up. And besides, I'm guessing there will be plenty of useful information for players in this book. Also, the archetype is very lame. Anyone with a couple of braincells could figure that one out themselves. If you've spent any signifcent time surfing the D&D boards you'll see that there are plenty of people with less than a couple braincells. ;)
DBlizzard 12-06-05, 08:10 PM	I don't want Ice Elves, Ice Gnomes, or whatever the rest of that rot. I'm all for fleshing the location out as the possible origin of the Dwarves however, as that keeps to what has been mentioned in previous sourcebooks. It honestly looks like they tried to drop too much stuff on Frostfell, without thinking about how it pertained to pre-existing contexts.. Reading that preview, I got the impression that it was a "commerical" for Frostburn. I hope the whole section isn't similiar treatments. Maybe they just didn't want to create a whole bunch of rules for things that would be in Frostfell, and pointed towards Frostburn. Artic versions of the normal races? That sounds like subraces to me. And did I miss something, or does it describe races living on Frostfell? Remember, the whole anti-subraces thing is Keith's preference. WotC obviously has a different approach. If you prefer it (and I mostly do), then just ignore any bits that suggest it. However, it seems there is not official policy against subrace in Eberron.
magicmarker13 12-06-05, 10:23 PM	Alrighty, i'm going to have to side with jagermeister on this preview killing my soul. The restless wanderer is something that far more generic an adventurer description that even the hero builders book could muster up. This is a waste of space. It's pages on why someone might walk out of their house is all. And the part on the frostfell, PUHLEASE. Frostburn didn't sell that well, plz to be getting over it kthnx bye. Stop with using precious page space to tart up such a lame and generally heavily criticized book. And for goodness sakes, SNOW ELVES?! wha wha wha?! Elves originated in xen'drik, moved to aerenal. and i would imagine living in two jungle type continents and having a CON penalty would make them a very unlikely candidate for living in cold regions. Neanderthals?!?! Okay, why are we taking a page from our own evolutionary history of earth and splicing into eberron. I mean, the world is only one million years old, with many races being younger than that. Again with the frostburn, OMG THEY FINALLY GAVE US SOME INFO ON FROSTBURN ON MAKING IT WORK IN EBERRON!!!!! puhlease, how hard is it to do that. oh look a big block of ice, north! let's put the icebook there. There, that took five seconds, lets move on. And subraces?!?! subraces?!?! That is a cardinal sin in Eberron. We suddenly move every race to somewhere cold and they develop ice powers?! that's stupid! The only race mentioned that came from somewhere cold was the dwarves, and i can at least agree with the statement some stayed in the frostfell. but did they come down south and start cast cone of colds on people because they lived somewhere cold? NO! Sorry this is disjointed, but it feels like i'm about to be fed another crapfest like the RoE book. I just hope WotC has the courtesy of using the standard dnd book cover so it will be more aesthetically pleasing when put in the same shame pile as RoE.
Majorafire77 12-06-05, 10:48 PM	I honestly don't see what the big problem is with subraces in Eberron. If I remember correctly, Keith said that it takes away from their cultural identity or something like that. However, when you think about it, it makes perfect sense for elves that have been freezing their asses off in the Frostfell to have a completely different culture than those who have been tinkering around with death magic in their hot and steamy jungle environments. You could argue that they're biologically the same, but when you look at the PHB and other sources you'll notice for the most part that not all of the traits of a particular race have to do with their bodies and minds; some have to do with their culture, which is what subraces are all about. A perfect example is the Neanderthals from Frostburn. Neanderthals are biologically the same as humans (note the human subtype), and the majority of their differences are their based on how the so-called neanderthals are brought up as opposed to how a PHB human is. However, I do have a problem with how the Forgotten Realms has handled subraces. In FR, subraces are no longer exotic and instead have become the norm ("You're an elf? What kind?"), which is a problem. When a subrace is introduced in a campaign it should be exotic and interesting. Subraces absolutely suck as PC races, and in my opinion should only be used as NPCs (inhabitants of a hidden city, guardians of some ancient thing, etc). I'm perfectly happy to use a subrace of elf for an NPC who lies at the last room of an ancient ice palace and who has been there forever, but subraces should not be running around Khorvaire. magicmarker13: If you don't like the Frostfell or subraces, then don't use them. And by the way, previews don't really tell that much about how good or bad a book is going to be. After all, there's still 150+ pages left in the book that you aren't reading. If you don't like the book upon flipping through it at your FLGS, then don't buy it. We won't care. EDIT: Let me throw in that I'm perfectly happy with a book that will practically eliminate the need for Keith's Eberron Expandeds (on the off chance that the preview represents the entirety of the book well).
(Psi)SeveredHead 12-06-05, 10:56 PM	I don't run DnD anymore, but I still play. I still find DM products more useful than player products, however. I think I will like this one, but I'd like to know how they slipped subraces into the book. Was someone maybe not paying attention? Oh well, my Eberron DM will automatically ban "arctic elves" and other such nonsense.
Majorafire77 12-06-05, 10:59 PM	There is no problem with subraces themselves, only how they are implemented in a game.
ChronosCrow 12-07-05, 01:42 AM	Very nice. I'm so getting this. Actually it might be a good late C-mas present to some of my players as well.
realdm 12-07-05, 04:33 AM	we'll see, we'll see...
gaerfindel 12-07-05, 11:45 AM	It is interesting to note that the earlier previews summarized it as saying "What does an orc from the shadow marches know about the elves of Aerneal" which would be intensely useful in most campaigns. When I was reading the bit on Frostfell, I was thinking, "Dang, one expedition and suddenly every PC knows this? Shouldn't the PC's know next to nothing about frostfell?" From the thunder guide Prc description, Explorer's Handbook pages 66-67: Lionized in the Press -- Starting at 5th level, the Korranberg Chronicle, the Breland Ledger, the Aundairan Scroll, and other news chronicle sheets breathlessly recount your adventures acroos the Thunder Sea...When at the University of Wynarn, Mrograve University, or the Karrnber Library, you can present a lecture..." Serial Hero -- "At 8th level, famed Kr=orranberg Chronicle reporter Kole Naerrin writes a serialized account of your adventures appearing over the course of thirteen weeks." And from Thunder Guides in the Game, page 69: Adaptation -- "At heart, the thunder guide is an explorer, and journeying to new areas is as natural and essential to him as breathing. As such, you can easily expand the focus of the thunder guide class to include and region frequently visited in your campaing..." In short, there's no reason, outside the needs of your campaign, that PCs couldn't know something of the Frostfell.
Siran Dunmorgan 12-07-05, 12:17 PM	[Chimes in...] We have had situations where the preview has made a book look staggeringly bad, but the book as a whole turned out pretty well. Explorer's Handbook and the aberrant-marked Lyrandar crew, for example. In the preview, it came across as canonical. In the actual book, it came across as a sidebar written by the Eberron analogue of a tabloid journalist. With respect to Frostfell, if Hasbro's villeins are going to tell us that it's another continent—as opposed to a chain of large islands in an ice-capped sea, for example—then, in the pulp tradition, it's perfectly reasonable to populate it with cultures adapted to it. Now, mind you, I would rather those cultures were something other than "standard" ice-cultures: a population of rhemoraz-riding elves that farmed sulphurous fungi along lava channels through the ice, dwelling in great basalt city-states centered on volcanic vents, would feel more "Eberron", for example, than straightforward ice-elves in crystal-white palaces, not to mention providing an interesting reason why the dwarves might have left. —Siran Dunmorgan P.S.: Technical issue concerning neandertals, also: there were neandertal populations not only in Europe, but scattered throughout the Near East and central Asia. While many of them lived near the ice, we have no evidence that they lived on the ice, and indeed, have much evidence to suggest that they preferred near-tropical climates. In the context of Eberron, the imagination does not run to neandertals per se but rather to "dire humans."
a_psh 12-07-05, 01:41 PM	If you're going to throw ice-dwelling elves in at all, shouldn't they be in Eberron's southern hemisphere, much closer to Xen'drik? Really, the only two icy races I wanted to see addressed were the dwarves (who came from the Frostfell) and the frost giants (who, I would imagine, live either on the southernmost tip of Xen'drik or even on Everice, but not really in the frozen north at all). Actually, yeah, frost giants... how does one actually use these guys in an Eberron campaign? Where do they go that the PCs have any shot of meeting them? The thing about Lhazaar boats on icerunners made me a bit happy, at least.
Slayen 12-07-05, 03:12 PM	If you're going to throw ice-dwelling elves in at all, shouldn't they be in Eberron's southern hemisphere, much closer to Xen'drik? Elves: The glimmering cities of the snow elves seem now to be all fallen. On the islands of the Icemaw Sea, the ruins of these ice cities remain, suggesting that some elves fled to the freezing south to escape their giant masters, but did not survive to the present day. Snow elves may yet exist in Everice, but no explorer has returned with evidence of them. The Icemaw Sea south of the Xen'drik mainland is dotted with snow-covered islands and floating icebergs. So it would seem that, yes, they are in the region south of Xen'drik.
DarkWarriorKarg 12-07-05, 03:43 PM	This obsession with no sub-races... I don't mind them... It's rather pulply to have "lost" tribes. I agree that, on the whole, they should be not part of the mainstream. Groups in out-of-the-way locations are what I like seeing. As well, the most problems I see raised on this board is elves. I see it this way: Duergar: a lost tribe of dwarves corrupted by Khyber, is all well and good. Populating Khorvaire with 6 distinct elven subraces? No. A lost tribe of Halflings in the Jungles of Xend'rix, who developed telepathy (Ghostwise): Yes.
a_psh 12-07-05, 04:41 PM	So it would seem that, yes, they are in the region south of Xen'drik.Good catch there. The fact that they were only showing the map of the Frostfell had me confused.
Quenditar 12-07-05, 06:07 PM	So, basically, anything that would be in a Pentanational Geographic article is fair game for the PCs.
ekomega 12-07-05, 09:09 PM	...and the frost giants (who, I would imagine, live either on the southernmost tip of Xen'drik or even on Everice, but not really in the frozen north at all). Actually, yeah, frost giants... how does one actually use these guys in an Eberron campaign? Where do they go that the PCs have any shot of meeting them? I put them on mountains in xen'drik. Somewhere really high up, where it's cold. But since Xen'drik is magically affected, there can be an ice region (where normal tropics would be) full of Frost Giants. Who knows what that crazy magic did. I forgot to mention: there had better be an index in this one!
PsionicMonk 12-07-05, 11:48 PM	Is there going to be more info than just Frostfell? Cuase if there isn't I would really seriously suggest theychange the book to "Eberron: Frostfell" But really I was thinking this book was going to explain the lineages of Dragonmarked houses, of the kings/queens. So you could make a better chr, maybe also new uses for skills. And give you tips about what every Eberron chr does know about the world. And what most people do in the world. Also maybe a few more details about the Last War, and why the fact that it is over, people are still waiting for it to start up agein.
ChronosCrow 12-08-05, 09:16 AM	...Last War, and why the fact that it is over, people are still waiting for it to start up agein. I'm all about more info on battles and people and what not, but I'd think the reason it stopped would be rather ever present. Most everyone was in fear of the Mourning being somekind of supernatural retaliation against the people of Khovaire b/c of the war, a superstition really. Peace talks started from nations b/c of this fear. King Boranel, of Breland, was the first royal to reach out to the other countries and push that fact as his main agrument. Though I find it unlikely he actually believed it, out of all the royals he's the one, though still wanting the seat of Galifar, that is tired of fighting a war over the old ways that most of the royals today were never really a part of.
MrFilthyIke 12-08-05, 10:25 AM	If you've spent any signifcent time surfing the D&D boards you'll see that there are plenty of people with less than a couple braincells. ;) Quoted again for emphasis. :D
DarkWarriorKarg 12-08-05, 10:29 AM	If you've spent any signifcent time surfing the D&D boards you'll see that there are plenty of people with less than a couple braincells. ;) Sigged!
MrFilthyIke 12-08-05, 10:48 AM	Sigged! Good catch DarkWarriorKarg :)
ChronosCrow 12-10-05, 04:01 PM	Does anyone know where I can get a high resolution picture of the Player's Guide to Eberron?