Picture perfect blackmail in a cameraless world [Archive] - Wizards Community

Picture perfect blackmail in a cameraless world [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rechan
05-23-07, 08:22 PM Blackmail is a firm staple of intrigue and noir. Which are aspects of Eberron.

Yet usually the easiest way of blackmailing someone is to get incriminating evidence on them. Basically pictures, video or audio recording. After all, Blackmail hinges on undeniable evidence.

So since Eberron lacks that, how would you go about blackmailing someone?

Even if there were some sort of magic that permitted the use of taking a "picture" or a "recording", it's so easy to tamper with in a fantasy setting. "That's not me, it's a changeling!" or "That's just an illusion messing with the (spell)!"

Since blackmail requirse solid proof, what would be good blackmail in the Eberron campaign setting? Would there be a way of testing to see who is the parents of a child via spells on the blood (to prove that aberrant heir is the result of this Dragonmarked heir)?
gelalshawr
05-23-07, 08:29 PM most Blackmail in such a setting would depend on the credibility of the person being blackmailed, and quite a bit on documented evidence. I could have a sivis marked document that the blackmailee signed when he was younger, to make money off of some necromantic dealings, but nobody else knows about. it would mostly be written proofs really, and those can be forged, but in the wonderful world of dragonmarked houses forgery becomes slightly more difficult.
Edymnion
05-23-07, 10:13 PM Historically (aka, before the invention of cameras and audio recordings), blackmail was typically restricted to two forms. Written and verbal. As in, the other guy has a letter you wrote with something incriminating on it (hence why many underhanded type characters are good forgers, to invent blackmail material when they can't get it the old fashioned way), and threatening to literally tell a secret. The idea wasn't that you needed foolproof evidence, but that just the accusation was often enough to ruin people.

Lets use a modern example.
Lets say I threaten to mail everyone on your street a "Friendly warning about the pedophile living in the third house on the right". Now, it doesn't actually matter if you are a pedophile or not, just the accusation would be enough to tarnish if not outright ruin your reputation with your neighbors, so you would go to great lengths to make sure that didn't happen.
Toloran
05-23-07, 10:35 PM Well, if the blackmail evidence was obtained from House Phiarlan then they might have made use of an Image Projector (from Magic of Eberron). It basically works like a video camera (no sound though).
_Radagast_
05-24-07, 01:44 AM Well, if the blackmail evidence was obtained from House Phiarlan then they might have made use of an Image Projector (from Magic of Eberron). It basically works like a video camera (no sound though).

Yes, but could an Image Projector capture the image of an illusion? And if so, these projectors couldn't really be too reliable considering any illusionist could make an illusion of what they wanted and record it.
Shady314
05-24-07, 04:15 AM Yet usually the easiest way of blackmailing someone is to get incriminating evidence on them. Basically pictures, video or audio recording. After all, Blackmail hinges on undeniable evidence.
As Edy pointed out blackmail does not actually hinge on "undeniable" evidence. (Undeniable evidence isn't even possible. Photos and audio recordings can be doctored even in our world) Many protest their innocence no matter how overwhelming the evidence. The important thing is to have something "incriminating" (not undeniable) that will weigh your words more heavily than his denial.

What you need is usually just enough to get an investigation opened. A letter written by the person with his special arcane seal is enough or even just a lett a Sivis official can compare and say "yep this seems to be written by him." Or his arcane signet ring left at the scene of the crime. Sure he can SAY it must have been stolen. But it's suspicious and chances are he doesn't want to be a suspect anymore than anyone else. It's about rumors and scandals. If you lose face you lose influence and power. This is especially acute with Zilargo and the gnomes in general.

Even if there were some sort of magic that permitted the use of taking a "picture" or a "recording", it's so easy to tamper with in a fantasy setting. "That's not me, it's a changeling!" or "That's just an illusion messing with the (spell)!"
Magic finds the truth as well as hides it. Remember those handy zones of truth they can make you walk on and off of repeatedly when in prison clothes. ;)

Since blackmail requirse solid proof, what would be good blackmail in the Eberron campaign setting?
Again it doesn't require solid proof. Just someone spreading unfounded rumors can ruin your life. Edyminion's pedophile scenario is the perfect example. You don't even need undeniable proof in our world to get someone thrown in jail. You just need enough to remove "reasonable" doubt. If someone is for example having an illicit affair. You don't even need "proof." Just threatening to tell the person's spouse is enough to blackmail them.

Would there be a way of testing to see who is the parents of a child via spells on the blood (to prove that aberrant heir is the result of this Dragonmarked heir)?
That's an interesting idea. I like it.
taski
05-24-07, 05:21 AM Also, if they have actually done something that would lose face, you don't even need any evidence at all. Just convince them that you have it, and they're yours. Never underestimate the effort-saving power of a good bluff check.
Splendide
05-24-07, 07:11 AM Its also important to remember that raising standards in the quality of blackmail also raised the requirements of successful blackmail.

In a world where photographic evidence is standard, then its going to take something like that for blackmail to be a serious threat - a rumour does not do so much; if it had creedence surely you'd have a photo.

But in a world where there is rarely any solid evidence of anything (one without photographic evidence), then public declarations carry more weight - what could be stronger than a man's word, after all? If you don't know, then nothing is!
Toloran
05-24-07, 11:27 AM Its also important to remember that raising standards in the quality of blackmail also raised the requirements of successful blackmail.

In a world where photographic evidence is standard, then its going to take something like that for blackmail to be a serious threat - a rumour does not do so much; if it had creedence surely you'd have a photo.

But in a world where there is rarely any solid evidence of anything (one without photographic evidence), then public declarations carry more weight - what could be stronger than a man's word, after all? If you don't know, then nothing is!

This is very true. In situations where you just can't get the usual types of evidence, whatever you can get becomes more important. Also, Blackmail doesn't HAVE to be true to ruin someone (especially if they can't prove they didn't).

Example: Secretary for important government official in Sharn gets fired. 9-ish months later, she has a kid. She then blackmails the (married) government official claiming that the child is his and he had an affair with him. They both know he didn't, but he can't prove it was someone else's child and the timing is "convenient."

Plot Hook: A group of detectives/adventurers are hired to find out who she was with at the time who could possibly be the father instead. The more proof, the merrier.

Possible Developments(?): She actually didn't have anything against the official but she is currently being threatened by the Boromar Clan for money she borrowed from them. They want the money back and she couldn't pay, so they suggested that she blackmail the official (whom they have come in to conflict with before).
Angerland
05-24-07, 01:06 PM Also remember that sometimes the person's reputation that is bringing the accusations can make the blackmail more effecttive. A few drunken commoners coming forth with a claim against someone will not have the same impact as a Dragonmarked Nobel, a well known and respected merchant, or member of the clergy.

Whether what they say is true or not.

While detect lie and Zone of Truth would work to ferret out any lies, someone would need reasonable suspicion that they are going to be lied to to use these, or question someone with these techniques.

Also don't forget about hostage taking and blackmail. If a family member is threatened a normally good person might do or say just about anything to keep them safe.
davethebrave371
05-27-07, 08:35 PM While detect lie and Zone of Truth would work to ferret out any lies, someone would need reasonable suspicion that they are going to be lied to to use these, or question someone with these techniques.

Just a side note, if you can afford to have the spell cast, it works at cross purposes to blackmail. If you're blackmailing a noble, for instance, they can afford to buy a casting of the spell on themselves in a court of law, etc, and a caster of zone of truth knows when someone resists, so you can't rely on a good Will save.

I know this because my players do that when they're accused of a crime. Cogs, the party artificer, can even make scrolls of it now, so he can just craft a scroll at his own expense and hand it to a spellcaster magistrate. Done and done.

It sucks, because it's really hard to pin stuff on them that they didn't actually do. Of course, should they do something actually illegal, fun times will abound.
RogueElement
05-28-07, 11:50 PM In the Sherlock Holmes shortstory "The Adventure of Charles Augustus Milverton" by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, a master blackmailer had an entire network of spies, pickpockets, and burglars that would bring him "indiscreet" letters written by wealthy gentlemen and ladies. He would blackmail the wealthy citizens with exposure of their indiscretions for large sums of money. Just think of how potential business partners would react to letters of marquee pointing to crooked business dealings or war profiteering. Think of how family and social peers would react if they knew a gentleman or lady of standing had a fling with a stable hand in their youth (or even worse...while they were married). In close-knit Victorian England, they were more than happy to pay (or commit suicide to prevent exposure of the scandal).

Here's a quote:

I'll tell you, Watson. He is the king of all the blackmailers. Heaven help the man, and still more the woman, whose secret and reputation come into the power of Milverton! With a smiling face and a heart of marble, he will squeeze and squeeze until he has drained them dry. The fellow is a genius in his way, and would have made his mark in some more savoury trade. His method is as follows: He allows it to be known that he is prepared to pay very high sums for letters which compromise people of wealth and position. He receives these wares not only from treacherous valets or maids, but frequently from genteel ruffians, who have gained the confidence and affection of trusting women. He deals with no *****rd hand. I happen to know that he paid seven hundred pounds to a footman for a note two lines in length, and that the ruin of a noble family was the result. Everything which is in the market goes to Milverton, and there are hundreds in this great city who turn white at his name. No one knows where his grip may fall, for he is far too rich and far too cunning to work from hand to mouth. He will hold a card back for years in order to play it at the moment when the stake is best worth winning. I have said that he is the worst man in London, and I would ask you how could one compare the ruffian, who in hot blood bludgeons his mate, with this man, who methodically and at his leisure tortures the soul and wrings the nerves in order to add to his already swollen money-bags?"

You can read the whole story here for free:
http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=DoyChar.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=1&division=div1

Happy hunting!
davethebrave371
05-29-07, 09:32 AM Simply awesome RogueElement. I especially love "no *****rd hand" being censored. hahaha

But seriously, that's sweet.
Luis_Dragunov
05-29-07, 12:27 PM Like many have already said, sometimes merely the accusation sometimes is enough. Not only that, but just like you thought up the "It wasn't me, it was a changeling!" excuse, you can bet that every guard, cheated spouse, parent and schoolteacher will say "Yeah, I've heard that one before.".

So lets say you use...

Framed Image
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Bard 1, Sorcerer/Wizard 1
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Sight
Effect: One illustration of what you see.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell ResistanceNo

By framing your index and thumbs into a rectangular shape and speaking the right incantation, you can create a thin glossy film of persistant etherstuff that soon coalesces into a perfect replica of what you were seeing when you finished the incantantion. The material is waterproof but otherwise subject to the same rules as paper.

Still, it could be a forgery, a fabrication. But it doesn't matter. People often belive their own eyes, even in a world filled with arcane magic. After all, sure, it could be fake... but it could also be true. And doubt is all that is required because some people will promptly belive it, even if it is a lie, and the subject's reputation will be forever marked.
davethebrave371
05-30-07, 09:46 AM Luis, that is worthy of a :cookie:
Luis_Dragunov
05-30-07, 10:11 AM Why thank you. Just doing my job with some magic :)
RogueElement
05-30-07, 06:00 PM Simply awesome RogueElement. I especially love "no *****rd hand" being censored. hahaha

But seriously, that's sweet.
Thanks! Glad I could help.

Hahaha, that's weird, I didn't notice the censoring. Is that a racist word? Maybe the origin of the word is racist, like "gypped" or "welshed." (EDIT: notice those racist words got through the filter! I guess the gypsies and the welsh have crappy lawyers)

I'm sure when Doyle wrote his stories over a couple of centuries ago he never meant any of his literature to be racist, sexist, or prudish. hahaha :D
Gurv
06-01-07, 12:08 AM Is that a racist word?
I'm pretty sure it isn't racist or even related to race. But that's computers for you...it saw a combination of letters and didn't much like it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rechan 05-23-07, 08:22 PM	Blackmail is a firm staple of intrigue and noir. Which are aspects of Eberron. Yet usually the easiest way of blackmailing someone is to get incriminating evidence on them. Basically pictures, video or audio recording. After all, Blackmail hinges on undeniable evidence. So since Eberron lacks that, how would you go about blackmailing someone? Even if there were some sort of magic that permitted the use of taking a "picture" or a "recording", it's so easy to tamper with in a fantasy setting. "That's not me, it's a changeling!" or "That's just an illusion messing with the (spell)!" Since blackmail requirse solid proof, what would be good blackmail in the Eberron campaign setting? Would there be a way of testing to see who is the parents of a child via spells on the blood (to prove that aberrant heir is the result of this Dragonmarked heir)?
gelalshawr 05-23-07, 08:29 PM	most Blackmail in such a setting would depend on the credibility of the person being blackmailed, and quite a bit on documented evidence. I could have a sivis marked document that the blackmailee signed when he was younger, to make money off of some necromantic dealings, but nobody else knows about. it would mostly be written proofs really, and those can be forged, but in the wonderful world of dragonmarked houses forgery becomes slightly more difficult.
Edymnion 05-23-07, 10:13 PM	Historically (aka, before the invention of cameras and audio recordings), blackmail was typically restricted to two forms. Written and verbal. As in, the other guy has a letter you wrote with something incriminating on it (hence why many underhanded type characters are good forgers, to invent blackmail material when they can't get it the old fashioned way), and threatening to literally tell a secret. The idea wasn't that you needed foolproof evidence, but that just the accusation was often enough to ruin people. Lets use a modern example. Lets say I threaten to mail everyone on your street a "Friendly warning about the pedophile living in the third house on the right". Now, it doesn't actually matter if you are a pedophile or not, just the accusation would be enough to tarnish if not outright ruin your reputation with your neighbors, so you would go to great lengths to make sure that didn't happen.
Toloran 05-23-07, 10:35 PM	Well, if the blackmail evidence was obtained from House Phiarlan then they might have made use of an Image Projector (from Magic of Eberron). It basically works like a video camera (no sound though).
_Radagast_ 05-24-07, 01:44 AM	Well, if the blackmail evidence was obtained from House Phiarlan then they might have made use of an Image Projector (from Magic of Eberron). It basically works like a video camera (no sound though). Yes, but could an Image Projector capture the image of an illusion? And if so, these projectors couldn't really be too reliable considering any illusionist could make an illusion of what they wanted and record it.
Shady314 05-24-07, 04:15 AM	Yet usually the easiest way of blackmailing someone is to get incriminating evidence on them. Basically pictures, video or audio recording. After all, Blackmail hinges on undeniable evidence. As Edy pointed out blackmail does not actually hinge on "undeniable" evidence. (Undeniable evidence isn't even possible. Photos and audio recordings can be doctored even in our world) Many protest their innocence no matter how overwhelming the evidence. The important thing is to have something "incriminating" (not undeniable) that will weigh your words more heavily than his denial. What you need is usually just enough to get an investigation opened. A letter written by the person with his special arcane seal is enough or even just a lett a Sivis official can compare and say "yep this seems to be written by him." Or his arcane signet ring left at the scene of the crime. Sure he can SAY it must have been stolen. But it's suspicious and chances are he doesn't want to be a suspect anymore than anyone else. It's about rumors and scandals. If you lose face you lose influence and power. This is especially acute with Zilargo and the gnomes in general. Even if there were some sort of magic that permitted the use of taking a "picture" or a "recording", it's so easy to tamper with in a fantasy setting. "That's not me, it's a changeling!" or "That's just an illusion messing with the (spell)!" Magic finds the truth as well as hides it. Remember those handy zones of truth they can make you walk on and off of repeatedly when in prison clothes. ;) Since blackmail requirse solid proof, what would be good blackmail in the Eberron campaign setting? Again it doesn't require solid proof. Just someone spreading unfounded rumors can ruin your life. Edyminion's pedophile scenario is the perfect example. You don't even need undeniable proof in our world to get someone thrown in jail. You just need enough to remove "reasonable" doubt. If someone is for example having an illicit affair. You don't even need "proof." Just threatening to tell the person's spouse is enough to blackmail them. Would there be a way of testing to see who is the parents of a child via spells on the blood (to prove that aberrant heir is the result of this Dragonmarked heir)? That's an interesting idea. I like it.
taski 05-24-07, 05:21 AM	Also, if they have actually done something that would lose face, you don't even need any evidence at all. Just convince them that you have it, and they're yours. Never underestimate the effort-saving power of a good bluff check.
Splendide 05-24-07, 07:11 AM	Its also important to remember that raising standards in the quality of blackmail also raised the requirements of successful blackmail. In a world where photographic evidence is standard, then its going to take something like that for blackmail to be a serious threat - a rumour does not do so much; if it had creedence surely you'd have a photo. But in a world where there is rarely any solid evidence of anything (one without photographic evidence), then public declarations carry more weight - what could be stronger than a man's word, after all? If you don't know, then nothing is!
Toloran 05-24-07, 11:27 AM	Its also important to remember that raising standards in the quality of blackmail also raised the requirements of successful blackmail. In a world where photographic evidence is standard, then its going to take something like that for blackmail to be a serious threat - a rumour does not do so much; if it had creedence surely you'd have a photo. But in a world where there is rarely any solid evidence of anything (one without photographic evidence), then public declarations carry more weight - what could be stronger than a man's word, after all? If you don't know, then nothing is! This is very true. In situations where you just can't get the usual types of evidence, whatever you can get becomes more important. Also, Blackmail doesn't HAVE to be true to ruin someone (especially if they can't prove they didn't). Example: Secretary for important government official in Sharn gets fired. 9-ish months later, she has a kid. She then blackmails the (married) government official claiming that the child is his and he had an affair with him. They both know he didn't, but he can't prove it was someone else's child and the timing is "convenient." Plot Hook: A group of detectives/adventurers are hired to find out who she was with at the time who could possibly be the father instead. The more proof, the merrier. Possible Developments(?): She actually didn't have anything against the official but she is currently being threatened by the Boromar Clan for money she borrowed from them. They want the money back and she couldn't pay, so they suggested that she blackmail the official (whom they have come in to conflict with before).
Angerland 05-24-07, 01:06 PM	Also remember that sometimes the person's reputation that is bringing the accusations can make the blackmail more effecttive. A few drunken commoners coming forth with a claim against someone will not have the same impact as a Dragonmarked Nobel, a well known and respected merchant, or member of the clergy. Whether what they say is true or not. While detect lie and Zone of Truth would work to ferret out any lies, someone would need reasonable suspicion that they are going to be lied to to use these, or question someone with these techniques. Also don't forget about hostage taking and blackmail. If a family member is threatened a normally good person might do or say just about anything to keep them safe.
davethebrave371 05-27-07, 08:35 PM	While detect lie and Zone of Truth would work to ferret out any lies, someone would need reasonable suspicion that they are going to be lied to to use these, or question someone with these techniques. Just a side note, if you can afford to have the spell cast, it works at cross purposes to blackmail. If you're blackmailing a noble, for instance, they can afford to buy a casting of the spell on themselves in a court of law, etc, and a caster of zone of truth knows when someone resists, so you can't rely on a good Will save. I know this because my players do that when they're accused of a crime. Cogs, the party artificer, can even make scrolls of it now, so he can just craft a scroll at his own expense and hand it to a spellcaster magistrate. Done and done. It sucks, because it's really hard to pin stuff on them that they didn't actually do. Of course, should they do something actually illegal, fun times will abound.
RogueElement 05-28-07, 11:50 PM	In the Sherlock Holmes shortstory "The Adventure of Charles Augustus Milverton" by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, a master blackmailer had an entire network of spies, pickpockets, and burglars that would bring him "indiscreet" letters written by wealthy gentlemen and ladies. He would blackmail the wealthy citizens with exposure of their indiscretions for large sums of money. Just think of how potential business partners would react to letters of marquee pointing to crooked business dealings or war profiteering. Think of how family and social peers would react if they knew a gentleman or lady of standing had a fling with a stable hand in their youth (or even worse...while they were married). In close-knit Victorian England, they were more than happy to pay (or commit suicide to prevent exposure of the scandal). Here's a quote: I'll tell you, Watson. He is the king of all the blackmailers. Heaven help the man, and still more the woman, whose secret and reputation come into the power of Milverton! With a smiling face and a heart of marble, he will squeeze and squeeze until he has drained them dry. The fellow is a genius in his way, and would have made his mark in some more savoury trade. His method is as follows: He allows it to be known that he is prepared to pay very high sums for letters which compromise people of wealth and position. He receives these wares not only from treacherous valets or maids, but frequently from genteel ruffians, who have gained the confidence and affection of trusting women. He deals with no *****rd hand. I happen to know that he paid seven hundred pounds to a footman for a note two lines in length, and that the ruin of a noble family was the result. Everything which is in the market goes to Milverton, and there are hundreds in this great city who turn white at his name. No one knows where his grip may fall, for he is far too rich and far too cunning to work from hand to mouth. He will hold a card back for years in order to play it at the moment when the stake is best worth winning. I have said that he is the worst man in London, and I would ask you how could one compare the ruffian, who in hot blood bludgeons his mate, with this man, who methodically and at his leisure tortures the soul and wrings the nerves in order to add to his already swollen money-bags?" You can read the whole story here for free: http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=DoyChar.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=1&division=div1 Happy hunting!
davethebrave371 05-29-07, 09:32 AM	Simply awesome RogueElement. I especially love "no *****rd hand" being censored. hahaha But seriously, that's sweet.
Luis_Dragunov 05-29-07, 12:27 PM	Like many have already said, sometimes merely the accusation sometimes is enough. Not only that, but just like you thought up the "It wasn't me, it was a changeling!" excuse, you can bet that every guard, cheated spouse, parent and schoolteacher will say "Yeah, I've heard that one before.". So lets say you use... Framed Image Conjuration (Creation) Level: Bard 1, Sorcerer/Wizard 1 Components: V,S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Sight Effect: One illustration of what you see. Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell ResistanceNo By framing your index and thumbs into a rectangular shape and speaking the right incantation, you can create a thin glossy film of persistant etherstuff that soon coalesces into a perfect replica of what you were seeing when you finished the incantantion. The material is waterproof but otherwise subject to the same rules as paper. Still, it could be a forgery, a fabrication. But it doesn't matter. People often belive their own eyes, even in a world filled with arcane magic. After all, sure, it could be fake... but it could also be true. And doubt is all that is required because some people will promptly belive it, even if it is a lie, and the subject's reputation will be forever marked.
davethebrave371 05-30-07, 09:46 AM	Luis, that is worthy of a :cookie:
Luis_Dragunov 05-30-07, 10:11 AM	Why thank you. Just doing my job with some magic :)
RogueElement 05-30-07, 06:00 PM	Simply awesome RogueElement. I especially love "no *****rd hand" being censored. hahaha But seriously, that's sweet. Thanks! Glad I could help. Hahaha, that's weird, I didn't notice the censoring. Is that a racist word? Maybe the origin of the word is racist, like "gypped" or "welshed." (EDIT: notice those racist words got through the filter! I guess the gypsies and the welsh have crappy lawyers) I'm sure when Doyle wrote his stories over a couple of centuries ago he never meant any of his literature to be racist, sexist, or prudish. hahaha :D
Gurv 06-01-07, 12:08 AM	Is that a racist word? I'm pretty sure it isn't racist or even related to race. But that's computers for you...it saw a combination of letters and didn't much like it.