15 versus 16 gods [Archive] - Wizards Community

15 versus 16 gods [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
korrick
01-27-08, 11:57 PM Does anyone remember where it mentions there being 16 gods vs the known 15 Sovereign Host gods? I believe it has something to do with the goblin empires, but I can't seem to find it.

For that matter, there are slight references to giants having different ideas about the nature of the Sovereign Host. Does anyone remember where those are?

Please feel free to post your own take on the Sovereign Host as well... I'm looking for some inspiration. Thanks!
Hellcow
01-28-08, 01:06 AM I didn't write the section, but I believe it's in PGtE. It's actually a faith that emerged among the goblins AFTER the empire fell; the Dhakaani Empire was agnostic.

As for the giants, it's in Secrets of Xen'drik - but will also be covered in more detail in the upcoming City of Stormreach.
mosaic
01-28-08, 02:08 AM Faiths of Eberron. Several references throughout the section on the Sovereign Host, with the most detailed being the sidebar on page 11. Basically it says that the original pantheon was referred to as "Nine and Six and One." Nine is the Sovereign Host, Six is the Dark Six who were originally part of the same group but kicked out, and One is a mystery. Some say a long-dead god, some say it represents the pantheon as a whole. More of a "Nine and Six are One."

I do remember reading somewhere else that the goblins believed in 16 gods and one was so terrible that no one else could handle him so he was pushed away, or something like that. Can't remember where I read that but it sounded cool. Very open for DMs to do what they wanted.
mosaic
02-12-08, 12:35 AM I just ran across the info your looking for. Keith's right, it's in the Player's Guide to Eberron. Two references actually. The section on the Dark Six has a sidebar called "Darguun and the Dark Six." It says that after the fall of the Dhakaani Empire, a coalition of tribal leaders formed a loose confederation of goblin tribes called the Ghaal'dar. They worshiped 16 gods. Humans "appropriated" 15 of these gods and called them the Sovereign Host (full pantheon). The humans favored the 9 good/neutral ones so the goblins pretty much went with the 6 that make up the Dark Six. Number 16? Nobody knows, but now that some goblins are shifting back to worshiping the full pantheon, a few are also looking for the lost god, whom they call "the Overthrown."

This idea of a lost god isn't abnormal. The real names of the Dark Six have supposedly been wiped from history. It's not that much more of a stretch to imagine a god rejected by both sides whose whole existence is banished from memory. In the second column of the p.139 (in the Sovereign Host section) it says his/her face is always chiseled out of reliefs from the era. There was a pretty successful campaign by someone.

My take? A god no one wanted around? Sounds like Tharizdun to me.

For me though, I'd personally like to see the Traveler out of the Dark Six - he seems more like a loner to me - and Number 16 in. There is no LE member of the Dark Six, so maybe somebody called the Tyrant or something.
Hellcow
02-12-08, 03:39 AM (PGtE says) Humans "appropriated" 15 of these gods and called them the Sovereign Host (full pantheon).
While Secrets of Sarlona says that most common traditions of the Sovereign Host as worshipped by the humans of Khorvaire began in the Sarlonan nation of Pyrine, and that they were spread across the Sarlonan kingdoms by Pyrinean missionaries. According to this theory, there was some exchange of ideas by the settlers who encountered the goblins of Khorvaire, but the core concepts and names as they are known to most human Vassals are based on the Pyrinean faith. As a DM, you'll have to decide where to place the weight based on the needs of your campaign.
korcheck
02-12-08, 10:29 AM The theory I like best out of the religions book is the one that had it set up that the original nine and six were seperate not by moral philosophy but by nature the nine were the gods of civilization and the six were the gods of nature when the split occured it was a split in morality. But some believe this only truly happen in the church and not in the heavens. My take is that the "lost god" was a member of one these nine and six while the traveler was the "and one" and more of a mediator or messenger. As civilization began to take root and become more prominent than wild nature there was a difference of oppinion between the gods on how to handle this that resulted in some of the nature gods siding with those of civilization and vis-a-versa. The traveler chose to side with the new six after the loss of one to keep the group together much as that godess of the drow did in faerun perhaps.
WarlockDa
02-13-08, 06:46 PM Without giving up any spoilers, Storm Dragon gives a decent bit of info into this area as well.
Fabius Maximus
02-14-08, 07:08 AM The only bit Storm Dragon offers is that it was the human settlers who scoured away all traces of the Overthrown. And that's not even canon information.
Revvecor
05-29-08, 08:16 PM Here is a theory that could explain the 16th god situation. Sorry in advance for the rambling.

The 16th god called the "Overthrown" could in fact be a collective god-like being like the Elves of Aerenal or the dragons ascending to godhood of the Sovereign Host. The collective God of the goblinoids could have caused a conflict to arise with the elves (since they could be sharing a similar manifest zone) thus explaining their long wars.

It could have also been a LE collective god since many divine beings working together would function better in a Lawful environment. The Evil element could come from the collective god would be doing what ever it could to gain strength and accomplish its goals.

This collective god would fill the gap in the Dark Six and free up the Traveler to be the "and 1". As stated above the Traveler could have been a mediator.

This version of the collective god would also explain why the humans that came to Khorvaire wanted to destroy it and purge it from the minds of the future generations. Would any of those humans want to live in relatively close proximity a being of god-like power, of course not. Thats why they destroyed all of the living parts of the god, so that it would no longer have the power of a god. It would also explain why the images of the god were destroyed, so that all memory of it would be lost to time. Also the enslavement of the goblinoids allowed the humans to control their worship to the point of ridding the mere memory of the god to the past. The slaves would only remember that one of their gods was "Overthrown".
Mystrich
05-29-08, 08:41 PM Does anyone remember where it mentions there being 16 gods vs the known 15 Sovereign Host gods? I believe it has something to do with the goblin empires, but I can't seem to find it.

For that matter, there are slight references to giants having different ideas about the nature of the Sovereign Host. Does anyone remember where those are?

Please feel free to post your own take on the Sovereign Host as well... I'm looking for some inspiration. Thanks!

No matter what their religion, it's the SH. Priests of the Host have a very "open" idea, hence why they have so many followers. Even before priests found them and sent missions, Halflings were worshiping the Host, they just didn't know it. The Giants, from long before the Host was founded, also worshipped the Host, and didn't know it. The Host adapts whatever gods a religion uses, and explains their "real" names to said culture. Hence why sahaugin, barbaric orcs, and tribal halflings worship a human god.

If there were 16, then the two's domains are found in the single deity that the Host sees (separate gods of fire and magic would both be Aureon.)
Zebastian
06-04-08, 08:48 PM Its only my personal speculation, but possible candidates for the missing 16th could be:
*Tiamat - not a deity, but was acknowledged in the stars, usually only done for divine beings.
*An ancient god of the Giants, such as Rom-Praxis.
*One of the Draconic gods of the Thir religion.

Any of these three ideas would suggest it was the Dragons which suppressed its worship.
Fabius Maximus
06-05-08, 10:17 AM Tiamat is an imprisoned Rajah. I certainly doubt she could be mistaken as a deity.

My favourite explanation: The Overthrown is in fact Tharidzun, who was imprisoned in the crystal sphere where Eberron later formed. He played around with things a bit, but the period as a god (and the overlord of the Daelkyr) wasn't just that successful.

I just wished I'd get around and write the whole thing down...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
korrick 01-27-08, 11:57 PM	Does anyone remember where it mentions there being 16 gods vs the known 15 Sovereign Host gods? I believe it has something to do with the goblin empires, but I can't seem to find it. For that matter, there are slight references to giants having different ideas about the nature of the Sovereign Host. Does anyone remember where those are? Please feel free to post your own take on the Sovereign Host as well... I'm looking for some inspiration. Thanks!
Hellcow 01-28-08, 01:06 AM	I didn't write the section, but I believe it's in PGtE. It's actually a faith that emerged among the goblins AFTER the empire fell; the Dhakaani Empire was agnostic. As for the giants, it's in Secrets of Xen'drik - but will also be covered in more detail in the upcoming City of Stormreach.
mosaic 01-28-08, 02:08 AM	Faiths of Eberron. Several references throughout the section on the Sovereign Host, with the most detailed being the sidebar on page 11. Basically it says that the original pantheon was referred to as "Nine and Six and One." Nine is the Sovereign Host, Six is the Dark Six who were originally part of the same group but kicked out, and One is a mystery. Some say a long-dead god, some say it represents the pantheon as a whole. More of a "Nine and Six are One." I do remember reading somewhere else that the goblins believed in 16 gods and one was so terrible that no one else could handle him so he was pushed away, or something like that. Can't remember where I read that but it sounded cool. Very open for DMs to do what they wanted.
mosaic 02-12-08, 12:35 AM	I just ran across the info your looking for. Keith's right, it's in the Player's Guide to Eberron. Two references actually. The section on the Dark Six has a sidebar called "Darguun and the Dark Six." It says that after the fall of the Dhakaani Empire, a coalition of tribal leaders formed a loose confederation of goblin tribes called the Ghaal'dar. They worshiped 16 gods. Humans "appropriated" 15 of these gods and called them the Sovereign Host (full pantheon). The humans favored the 9 good/neutral ones so the goblins pretty much went with the 6 that make up the Dark Six. Number 16? Nobody knows, but now that some goblins are shifting back to worshiping the full pantheon, a few are also looking for the lost god, whom they call "the Overthrown." This idea of a lost god isn't abnormal. The real names of the Dark Six have supposedly been wiped from history. It's not that much more of a stretch to imagine a god rejected by both sides whose whole existence is banished from memory. In the second column of the p.139 (in the Sovereign Host section) it says his/her face is always chiseled out of reliefs from the era. There was a pretty successful campaign by someone. My take? A god no one wanted around? Sounds like Tharizdun to me. For me though, I'd personally like to see the Traveler out of the Dark Six - he seems more like a loner to me - and Number 16 in. There is no LE member of the Dark Six, so maybe somebody called the Tyrant or something.
Hellcow 02-12-08, 03:39 AM	(PGtE says) Humans "appropriated" 15 of these gods and called them the Sovereign Host (full pantheon). While Secrets of Sarlona says that most common traditions of the Sovereign Host as worshipped by the humans of Khorvaire began in the Sarlonan nation of Pyrine, and that they were spread across the Sarlonan kingdoms by Pyrinean missionaries. According to this theory, there was some exchange of ideas by the settlers who encountered the goblins of Khorvaire, but the core concepts and names as they are known to most human Vassals are based on the Pyrinean faith. As a DM, you'll have to decide where to place the weight based on the needs of your campaign.
korcheck 02-12-08, 10:29 AM	The theory I like best out of the religions book is the one that had it set up that the original nine and six were seperate not by moral philosophy but by nature the nine were the gods of civilization and the six were the gods of nature when the split occured it was a split in morality. But some believe this only truly happen in the church and not in the heavens. My take is that the "lost god" was a member of one these nine and six while the traveler was the "and one" and more of a mediator or messenger. As civilization began to take root and become more prominent than wild nature there was a difference of oppinion between the gods on how to handle this that resulted in some of the nature gods siding with those of civilization and vis-a-versa. The traveler chose to side with the new six after the loss of one to keep the group together much as that godess of the drow did in faerun perhaps.
WarlockDa 02-13-08, 06:46 PM	Without giving up any spoilers, Storm Dragon gives a decent bit of info into this area as well.
Fabius Maximus 02-14-08, 07:08 AM	The only bit Storm Dragon offers is that it was the human settlers who scoured away all traces of the Overthrown. And that's not even canon information.
Revvecor 05-29-08, 08:16 PM	Here is a theory that could explain the 16th god situation. Sorry in advance for the rambling. The 16th god called the "Overthrown" could in fact be a collective god-like being like the Elves of Aerenal or the dragons ascending to godhood of the Sovereign Host. The collective God of the goblinoids could have caused a conflict to arise with the elves (since they could be sharing a similar manifest zone) thus explaining their long wars. It could have also been a LE collective god since many divine beings working together would function better in a Lawful environment. The Evil element could come from the collective god would be doing what ever it could to gain strength and accomplish its goals. This collective god would fill the gap in the Dark Six and free up the Traveler to be the "and 1". As stated above the Traveler could have been a mediator. This version of the collective god would also explain why the humans that came to Khorvaire wanted to destroy it and purge it from the minds of the future generations. Would any of those humans want to live in relatively close proximity a being of god-like power, of course not. Thats why they destroyed all of the living parts of the god, so that it would no longer have the power of a god. It would also explain why the images of the god were destroyed, so that all memory of it would be lost to time. Also the enslavement of the goblinoids allowed the humans to control their worship to the point of ridding the mere memory of the god to the past. The slaves would only remember that one of their gods was "Overthrown".
Mystrich 05-29-08, 08:41 PM	Does anyone remember where it mentions there being 16 gods vs the known 15 Sovereign Host gods? I believe it has something to do with the goblin empires, but I can't seem to find it. For that matter, there are slight references to giants having different ideas about the nature of the Sovereign Host. Does anyone remember where those are? Please feel free to post your own take on the Sovereign Host as well... I'm looking for some inspiration. Thanks! No matter what their religion, it's the SH. Priests of the Host have a very "open" idea, hence why they have so many followers. Even before priests found them and sent missions, Halflings were worshiping the Host, they just didn't know it. The Giants, from long before the Host was founded, also worshipped the Host, and didn't know it. The Host adapts whatever gods a religion uses, and explains their "real" names to said culture. Hence why sahaugin, barbaric orcs, and tribal halflings worship a human god. If there were 16, then the two's domains are found in the single deity that the Host sees (separate gods of fire and magic would both be Aureon.)
Zebastian 06-04-08, 08:48 PM	Its only my personal speculation, but possible candidates for the missing 16th could be: Tiamat - not a deity, but was acknowledged in the stars, usually only done for divine beings. An ancient god of the Giants, such as Rom-Praxis. *One of the Draconic gods of the Thir religion. Any of these three ideas would suggest it was the Dragons which suppressed its worship.
Fabius Maximus 06-05-08, 10:17 AM	Tiamat is an imprisoned Rajah. I certainly doubt she could be mistaken as a deity. My favourite explanation: The Overthrown is in fact Tharidzun, who was imprisoned in the crystal sphere where Eberron later formed. He played around with things a bit, but the period as a god (and the overlord of the Daelkyr) wasn't just that successful. I just wished I'd get around and write the whole thing down...