Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Snorre 04-30-07, 05:55 PM	Instead of creating a 3 different threads I gonna create 1 thread with 3 questions. These things have been bugging me for some time 1. How come the fiends and the daelkyr with their abomination don't pop up from the ground like rabbits? Ok I know they are trapped because of some sacrifice of the couatls and orc druids bla bla bla. But how are they really sealed? After all you can go down there and kill them? What if you went down to Khyber and met a beholder or worse... a balor what would prevent it from following you to the surface? Have a strange idea that the abominations are more "free" than the fiends thou 2. The terms fiends confuse me in Eberron. Fiends from Khyber that is. In the Age of Demons fiends ruled supreme with the rahajs as overlords. Did it mean that both demons, devils and rakashas were allies? Maybe they did fight against eachother in the age of demons, but managed to ally against the dragons...? No more devils and demons hate eachother if you look away from Shavarath? 3. The number of people living in Eberron just seems way to low. Let's see Karrnath has 2,5 million living there about 50% is humans, but it doesn't really matter since I guess you doesnt have to be a human to fight for karrnath. However this is the question. How were the five nations able to fight against eachother for 100 years with so small populations. When you also consider the size of khorvaire it makes me wonder why they even bothered or how they were able to fight against eachother. Can't really see the big epic battles with armies with such small populations. So my question is this. How come the population is no bigger and how were the war able to go on for about 100 years? Really hope someone here can explains these things for me, would really appriciate that. Oh and dwarves rocks! :cool:
Belabras 04-30-07, 06:08 PM	1. Up to the DM really. Supposedly there are seals. 2. They never really address it, but it's implied that Devils and Demons worked together. Infighting is a given. 3. It's been mentioned before. You are free to up the numbers if you want.
UnderworldLord 04-30-07, 06:20 PM	1) Still not sure how people are getting down into Khyber really, but Rajahs seem to be the same (Mel Alquat being my example), and the Daelkyr seem to just be sealed in Khyber in general. But remember that the underdark is as much another plane as any other plane. A teardrop on eberron may be an ocean in one part of khyber, while the Sea of Rage might be a small pond in another portion. 2) I've always considered that fiends didn't necessarily apply to demons and devils. Rakashas, Rajahs, possibly others that are outsiders (haven't exactly checked the source on them much) are all fiends. Demons and devils could be in the mix, but if you notice it seems to be mostly centered on Rakashas and the Rajahs themselves. This one is highly up to the DM. Belabras explanation is probably the common one, but I tend to have few if any demons/devils working for the Rajahs. 3) A hundred years of war does this to a population. Remember Kaius resorted to using undead bought from Vol at the price of his life (so to speak), and Aundair mercenaries were prominently used (goblinoid and Valenar mostly). And of course, there wasthe advent of the warforged. But remember that the day of mourning destroyed countless lives as well, including those fighting for other countries inside of Cyre. That would only be an extremely small percentage, but you have to realize that wars like this cost dozens of lives PER BATTLE. A hundred years of war is a lot of battles. Ask the French and the English sometime.
Vharuck 04-30-07, 08:24 PM	The daelkyr are supposedly kept in Khyber by artifact-level seals set by the Gatekeeper druids, but then again nobody's ever noticed them trying to break free.
Edymnion 04-30-07, 08:48 PM	1. How come the fiends and the daelkyr with their abomination don't pop up from the ground like rabbits? Ok I know they are trapped because of some sacrifice of the couatls and orc druids bla bla bla. But how are they really sealed? After all you can go down there and kill them? What if you went down to Khyber and met a beholder or worse... a balor what would prevent it from following you to the surface? Have a strange idea that the abominations are more "free" than the fiends thouWell, its not like Khyber is the Faerun underdark. It doesn't just have caves that open up on the surface world where anything that decided to go for a stroll could just walk out and start tearing stuff up. Really, its easier to think of Khyber as being more like another plane, with portals opening up into it only appearing deep underground. As for the seals, each one is differant and unique. I seem to remember one being an entire sacred grove of trees, where they used the power of the forest to seal the portal. Another is an actual ringlike gatestone with magical force sealing it away. Basically, each gate is an eldritch machine, each one unique and functioning in whatever way the DM needs it to function. 2. The terms fiends confuse me in Eberron. Fiends from Khyber that is. In the Age of Demons fiends ruled supreme with the rahajs as overlords. Did it mean that both demons, devils and rakashas were allies? Maybe they did fight against eachother in the age of demons, but managed to ally against the dragons...? No more devils and demons hate eachother if you look away from Shavarath?Eh, again, its easy to wrap your head around if you look at "fiend" not as a gaming term but as "evil monster". Nobody ever said they were all the same type, or that they all got along with each other, just that they were the supreme force in the world for that time. Its a lot like saying "the age of dinosaurs". Not all of them were the same species, and not all of them were reptilian (don't forget that mammals, insects, fish, and pretty much every class of life we know today was alive back then). But we still refer to it as the age of "dinosaurs", as if that one word could even come close to encompassing everything that moved beneath the primordial skies. 3. The number of people living in Eberron just seems way to low. Let's see Karrnath has 2,5 million living there about 50% is humans, but it doesn't really matter since I guess you doesnt have to be a human to fight for karrnath. However this is the question. How were the five nations able to fight against eachother for 100 years with so small populations. When you also consider the size of khorvaire it makes me wonder why they even bothered or how they were able to fight against eachother. Can't really see the big epic battles with armies with such small populations. So my question is this. How come the population is no bigger and how were the war able to go on for about 100 years?This is an acknowledged mistake. The setting was originally designed to be 10x smaller than it currently is, and somewhere along the line the scale on the maps accidentally got an extra 0 added to it. Its why if you look at the prices for travel, they're much lower in the original books than they are in the newer ones, because they got printed using the original scale, not the inflated one. You can fix the whole thing by simply multiplying the population numbers by the same scale the map got multiplied by, a factor of 10.
Snorre 04-30-07, 09:02 PM	Hard for me to see why creatures of Khyber simply can't get out. After all we know some drows live in Khyber (Umbragen) and they can walk both on Eberron and Khyber why can't the daelkyrs (abominations) they are fighting do the same? There are a few ways down to Khyber example The Black Pit in Breland and Goradra Gap in Mror Holds. Is the daelkyrs and the fiends sealed in the same way? If you ever were to have a campaign where the PCs were supposed to strengthen the seals or whatever is holding the daelkyr and fiends in khyber, how would you imagine it to be done or look like. Is there somekind of portal or simply a force that is holding them back, a force that only creatures from Eberron can walk trough? It seems the rakashas and night hags dominated in the age of demons, but there were all other kind of fiends too like demons and devils. How would they ehm... do? Were they a part of the civilizations the rakashas had?
Snorre 04-30-07, 09:13 PM	This is an acknowledged mistake. The setting was originally designed to be 10x smaller than it currently is, and somewhere along the line the scale on the maps accidentally got an extra 0 added to it. Its why if you look at the prices for travel, they're much lower in the original books than they are in the newer ones, because they got printed using the original scale, not the inflated one. You can fix the whole thing by simply multiplying the population numbers by the same scale the map got multiplied by, a factor of 10. If I understood this correct the world of Eberron were supposed to be 10 times smaller? Since they got the world to be 10 times as big the population may seem a bit small. Well I would really have disliked it if the world actually were 10 times smaller than it is now, but yeah I would really like to multiply the population with 10. Oh and how big is Eberron compared to the earth? By the way how do you know this, were did you get the information? If you multiply the population with 10, were would they be living. Am I supposed to multiply it with 10 for every city or is there supposed to be more cities?
Edymnion 04-30-07, 09:23 PM	Oh and how big is Eberron compared to the earth?Do the math. Accourding to the scale, Khovaire is roughly 4,300 miles wide. The United States is roughly 3,000 miles wide. Look at the world map on the inside cover of the ECS, and extrapolate from there. By the way how do you know this, were did you get the information? If you multiply the population with 10, were would they be living. Am I supposed to multiply it with 10 for every city or is there supposed to be more cities?Here on the boards. Eberron has been out for a few years now, and the setting's creator is a regular member of these forums. The discrepency was noticed long ago, and we got an explination on the boards. And the cities listed are only the MAJOR cities, and some sample cities. Every villiage, thorp, and hamlet aren't listed.
Vharuck 04-30-07, 09:38 PM	Oh and how big is Eberron compared to the earth? I forget where the picture is, but a poster on the boards once figured that, on a planet the size and shape of the Earth, we could fit every continent and landmass in Eberron and most of Toril (the world in the Forgotten Realms).
UnderworldLord 05-01-07, 12:38 AM	Hard for me to see why creatures of Khyber simply can't get out. After all we know some drows live in Khyber (Umbragen) and they can walk both on Eberron and Khyber why can't the daelkyrs (abominations) they are fighting do the same? There are a few ways down to Khyber example The Black Pit in Breland and Goradra Gap in Mror Holds. Is the daelkyrs and the fiends sealed in the same way? If you ever were to have a campaign where the PCs were supposed to strengthen the seals or whatever is holding the daelkyr and fiends in khyber, how would you imagine it to be done or look like. Is there somekind of portal or simply a force that is holding them back, a force that only creatures from Eberron can walk trough? It seems the rakashas and night hags dominated in the age of demons, but there were all other kind of fiends too like demons and devils. How would they ehm... do? Were they a part of the civilizations the rakashas had? I pretty well ignore the Umbragen. Its just a shameless slap at putting faerun style drow in. As for the two locations, those are 'said to lead to khyber' where inf act no information actually says they do. It could just as easily lead to the plane of shadow for all we really know. But as edy metioned, think of it as another plane. Those locations would be akin to manifest zones in this respect. And no, the Rajahs are sealed by the spiritual coils of the coatles, or something like that. The Claws of the Tiger is a good novel that covers this. On the other hand, the Dragon Below Trilogy is a good one for the Daelkyr, which are sealed each in an individual way, mostly through Eldritch Machines (ie, plot devices.)
Edymnion 05-01-07, 08:25 AM	I pretty well ignore the Umbragen. Its just a shameless slap at putting faerun style drow in.QFT. God forbid we ever have a D&D game that doesn't have its evil scheming drow in it. The fanboy revolt would be massive...
UnderworldLord 05-01-07, 10:17 AM	Hey, if planning to eat me isn't evil scheming, what is? ;)
Snorre 05-01-07, 03:09 PM	When reading Explorers handbook about Katal Hazath gateway to khyber and then read about mapping the Uluriak Tunnels it says things that indicate that khyber is simply like the underdark. Lets see: The vast majority of Uluriak is unworked stone, but a few places have carved staircases. These aren't the work of the githyanki; they represent a periodic effort by the denizens of Khyber (mostly mind flayers) to dig a new path to the surface, And later: After a dozens of miles of descending through Uluriak the twists and turns end. Now explorers are in Khyber itself Seems to me that if you had a giant drill then you could in theory dig your way to Khyber....? Dragonshard's version of Khyber also support this. Guess they are both wrong? Well guess that is the only way creatures imprisoned in Khyber stay in Khyber. Now that I now the size of khorvaire compared to Europe, then Khorvaire seems to have a lack of forests mountains and stuff. Maybe it's just me. Anyway thanks for the replies i got, really cleared up some things for me. The dinosaurs thing really helped me, thanks!:)
Edymnion 05-01-07, 06:02 PM	Seems to me that if you had a giant drill then you could in theory dig your way to Khyber....? Dragonshard's version of Khyber also support this. Guess they are both wrong? Well guess that is the only way creatures imprisoned in Khyber stay in Khyber.Well, just because they are tunnelling trying to get out doesn't necissarily mean that they will ever succeed. Khyber is "down there", but it wouldn't be a very effective prison if you could just dig a hole and get out of it. And remember, it is a prison, it is where Eberron imprisoned Khyber for all of time. You don't just bury the equivolent of an over-deity in a bunch of rock and expect it to hold, after all. Khyber is "down there", but its one of those "you can't get there from here" kind of things. Occassionally you will find what amounts to a portal that will let you access it, most of the time you will just find deep caverns that have been tainted and twisted by their proximity to Khyber (like a volcano could be situated on a portion of the surface that is in proximity to Fernia, the plane of fire, and its that proximity that makes the volcano hot). No amount of plain digging will get you into, or out of Khyber though, no more than just flying straight up will get you to Syrania. You fly straight up in the middle of a manifest zone like Sharn, with all the conditions right, and you might make it through, but its not assured.
Just another user 05-02-07, 09:39 AM	About the daelkyr I seems to remember that the seals should works as a kind of massive Antipathy effect that keep the Daelkyr (and, I suppose, the other Aberrations) down in Khyber
maollelujah 05-02-07, 10:51 AM	3. The number of people living in Eberron just seems way to low. Let's see Karrnath has 2,5 million living there about 50% is humans, but it doesn't really matter since I guess you doesnt have to be a human to fight for karrnath. However this is the question. How were the five nations able to fight against eachother for 100 years with so small populations. When you also consider the size of khorvaire it makes me wonder why they even bothered or how they were able to fight against eachother. Can't really see the big epic battles with armies with such small populations. So my question is this. How come the population is no bigger and how were the war able to go on for about 100 years? Personally I don't have a problem with the numbers. If one takes into count that probably 50% of Karrnath's population is under 18, meaning the actual population is probably 5 million it looks a little better. I also don't see the war as massive battles, but more on the lines destructive raids and smaller actions with an occasional major battle (once a decade probably less.)
Cifer 05-03-07, 09:09 AM	As for the seals, each one is differant and unique. I seem to remember one being an entire sacred grove of trees, where they used the power of the forest to seal the portal. Another is an actual ringlike gatestone with magical force sealing it away. Basically, each gate is an eldritch machine, each one unique and functioning in whatever way the DM needs it to function. And never forget: Artificers are not allowed to remain in proximity to a Seal for more than 20 minutes, since that is exactly the time until the question "I wonder how many XP I can Retain Essence from this one...?" will become irresistible.
Forgivance 05-03-07, 01:58 PM	Fiends are generally Outsiders (native) that are also evil...like tieflings, rakshasa, half fiends of all sorts, and sakah...more in many books. I picture alot of debauchery and pain, blood, violence, carnal taboo's played out over the skulls of the fallen. Darkness shrouding beauty hiding the hint of decay. The "fiends" bounding into view in massive cities made of basalt or obsidion, or bone, or sand, only to catch sight of their unholy rulers, the Rakshasa. Pilgrams spreading disease traveling far and wide to find blessing or demise at the feet of their gods, the Rajah, the now-sleeping embodiments of dietific might personified....although, I envision this with less spelling errors :p ---------------- Populations, I just make up anyway...you mean, books list that crap? Bah, the guy that used to take count got beat up in Droam...so cities like Sharn have millions and millions pre-war, and only millions post-war. If you don't like Eberron in the fluff or rules, change it...that's why I love it :) --------------- Finally, the rabbit hole...aberations are the armies of Khyber...and they do get released. Cockatrice, Gorgons, and Basalisks were unleashed on the Hobgoblin city of Cazhaak Draal. They ruined the place. Back in 600-700 or so, medusa came up from Khyber and took that city over. Now, all of those are magical beasts or monstrous humanoids...but they did come from Khyber. So, maybe all those seals retain only aberations? Of course, that's not likely either since the Daughters of Sora Kell dug up a venerable imprisoned mind flayer and made him the ruler of Graywall in Droam... My guess is that the seals disrupt or weaken the Delkyr specifically like kryptonite to superman. They loath it...perhaps a "repulsion" effect on them, maybe all of the above. So sure, the mind flayers could rally up some beholders and chokers and aboleths and dolgrims and dolgaunts, and they could make their way to the surface, but the Gatekeepers could keep their lords away at all time, maybe tune the seals to remove the special powers of the aberations, and defeat them....again... So, why not build more of the seals or make them portal and make a push? 'Cuz...just cuz...if you want to in your eberron, have portable Khyber seals rolling through the 100,000,000,000,000 miles of khyber passages, than go for it :) But down there, the aberations rule supream...
Cifer 05-03-07, 03:41 PM	I'd imagine that the power of the Daelkyr is spiritually "larger", making for an easier target for the seals which probably are not in extreme physical proximity to their prisoners. Mindflayers and other stuff is somewhat affected (which is why you don't see them in larger numbers on the surface), but not completely bound like the Daelkyr.
Edymnion 05-03-07, 06:41 PM	And never forget: Artificers are not allowed to remain in proximity to a Seal for more than 20 minutes, since that is exactly the time until the question "I wonder how many XP I can Retain Essence from this one...?" will become irresistible.Heh, funny, but not really a problem. You can't RE on anything you can't craft (aka that you don't have the appropriate crafting feat for). I don't think "Craft Eldritch Machine" is a feat any DM is going to be handing out anytime soon. ;)