Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Syltorian 03-12-07, 09:08 PM	We know that most of the Houses are not to keen on aberrant dragonmarks, especially those Houses that were leaders in the War of the Marks (which ones were that, by the way, apart from Cannith?) We also know that Khorvaire has a wide superstition about the aberrant-marked being mad and crazy, likely going back to the War of the Mark. But how do the following groups react to aberrant-marked (least through to greater): Dragonmarked Houses who did not participate to any great event in the War of the Mark (e.g. Medani, who were originally mistaken for aberrants and still begrudge Cannith having forced them into the Twelve). Also, how will Ghallanda react to aberrant marked who are not halflings - since they accept their own aberrants into their house. If anyone could make a list as to which houses actively participated in the war, I'd be grateful, too. Aerenal, the only other place beside Khorvaire where Dragonmarks can be born. If Shadow and Death surfaced there, aberrant marks should also appear. How do the Aereni react to them? They were not faced with the propaganda of the War of the Mark, but they have destroyed one House (Vol) and the other (Phiarlan) preferred to leave of its own accord. Remaining shadow-marked are often integrated into the special forces. Aberrant Marked never formed proper houses, so they are not a political problem. Would an aberrant thus be treated normally on Aerenal? Pushed into the special forces? Or ostracised? Valenar, and the Tairnadal at large. Would they see the mark as a taint (the ancestor did not have one!), or as a blessing (he has a mark that can use featherfall, his ancestor used that spell to save himself when he fell from the crumbling towers of Capa-Altac after stealing the orb that would destroy the magical bindings of elven slaves)? Could there even have been more recent aberrant marked heroes that are emulated by current elves (who might or might not have a mark themselves)? Seren Islanders seem to respect dragonmarks, if the Explorer's Handbook is right. Would they make a difference between a pure mark and an aberrant mark? For that matter, what do the dragons themselves think of this? Thanks for any opinions I can get on this.
UnderworldLord 03-12-07, 09:29 PM	I've actually come to the conclusion that the Valenar, while elves, don't bear marks. We've noticed the marks all came from Aerenal, not Valenar. A trend I've noticed, and if it comes up, I'll probably house rule on that. I don't have dragonmarked though, so I've no real clues if Wizards has put anything out on that. I tend to think the Serens would be able to recognize an aberrant mark as not being a true mark. I'm pretty sure they might fear it, perhaps respect it... but I don't think they'd like it.
Syltorian 03-13-07, 07:20 AM	Thanks for your input, Underworld Lord. I've actually come to the conclusion that the Valenar, while elves, don't bear marks. We've noticed the marks all came from Aerenal, not Valenar. A trend I've noticed, and if it comes up, I'll probably house rule on that. I don't have dragonmarked though, so I've no real clues if Wizards has put anything out on that. It's an interesting interpretation, but I wonder whether that would not be peculiar enough to have already been pointed out. They are, after all, full elves, not a subrace, and such an exception should have been stated more explicitely, even if no reason is given. The dragons and the Houses would be extremely interested in finding any such cause; it could be an interesting campaign, even. Especially since Phiarlan blood lingers on Aerenal, and the Tairnadal do accept converts: you'd have to find a reason (or at least, imply that there is one) why joining the Tairnadal suddenly breaks the bloodline. However, let's look at House Phiarlan. They are travelling performers, originally and even now in their Carnival of Shadows. They have songs about the deeds of great heroes, some of which - the heirloom performances - may only be performed by specific members. They have no great necromantic tradition, or even a wizardly one (as opposed to House Vol), and try to act in the present much more than the Aereni do. Much of this might be influence from their time of exile in Khorvaire. But perhaps a case could be made that their traditions are more Tairnadal than Aereni. But actually, little about the dragonmarks is mentioned on Aerenal to begin with, apart from House Vol (about which we know next to nothing) and House Phiarlan. No aberrant marks have been mentioned with regards to Aerenal, so far. Actually, no aberrant marks have really been mentioned in any detail outside Sharn and House Tarkannan, and to a lesser extent outside their relationship with the established Houses. Getting to know more about this is the point of this thread. I tend to think the Serens would be able to recognize an aberrant mark as not being a true mark. I'm pretty sure they might fear it, perhaps respect it... but I don't think they'd like it. Good idea: so, basically the way the "cliché" natives would try to treat a volcano on the verge of eruption? Better not anger it. If we respect it, it may just go away...
UnderworldLord 03-13-07, 12:28 PM	Well, the reason I exclude the Valenar is more because they where split from the other elves before the D'marks appeared. While its possible that a Shadow Marked could have left the family and embraced the warrior side, its just as likely to produce aberrant marks as it is true marks. What you're more going to need to explain is why a phiarlan is with the Valenar than anything else. Why just uproot and leave a culture of art and longevity for a potentially short life, and violent death? As for the second paragraph... what else do bard sing about? great losers? Nope, they sing about past heroes and glories they achieved. But back to the main point: Valenar could probably see them as either a curse or a gift, and I'd be hard pressed to rule a cultural way that anyone sees the Abberant D'marks. Not quite what I meant about the Serens either. I was meaning they may show some signs of respect, because it is a dragonmark, aberrant or not. But they would fear it, because it is an abomination of Khyber, a mark evil. They would probably refrain from killing it if they could get some response from the dragons, but I don't see the AD person surviving long if they realize there is no response forthcoming from the dragons. But, you could try to disguise the aberrant mark as a real mark, which could be interesting...
Nuclear_Buddha 03-13-07, 01:21 PM	Aberrant marks in Aerenal are probably treated with a great deal of care. Think of it this way: if you're an aberrant marked elf, that means you could very well have Mark of Death blood in you. A while back that was definitely grounds for being killed. Maybe it still is.
Syltorian 03-13-07, 01:22 PM	What you're more going to need to explain is why a phiarlan is with the Valenar than anything else. Why just uproot and leave a culture of art and longevity for a potentially short life, and violent death? It's perhaps about the choice Achilles was given in Greek myth: die young and famous, or live to old age but be unknown. He willingly chose the former. He knew he was not going to make it back alive from Troy. He did not want a long life; to some more adventurous types, the prospect of eternal life in some dusty Aereni tomb-city might sound endlessly boring (even if you do need to put some effort into actually being chosen for the Deathless state). Not an attitude most Aereni would be applauding, but it could exist amongst the younger people. As for art: the Valenar are not without that. They have great art, song and beautiful weapons, but there are also ancestors who became famous through great works of art rather than skill with a blade. Someone who wants to emulate their Xen'drik-phiarlan ancestor, travelling from tribe to tribe and sharing songs is more likely to do so amongst the Tairnadal than amongst the Aereni proper, where such exhuberance is probably frowned upon. Although the question why one would give up "longevity for a potentially short life, and violent death" is definetly one that the Aereni will ask themselves when hearing about a convert to the Tairnadal life. And I do believe that such converts will be rather rare. As for the second paragraph... what else do bard sing about? great losers? Nope, they sing about past heroes and glories they achieved. Okay, I'll grant you that one. Still - and this is my own impression, not something I can prove, of course - bardic culture seems to fit better with the glory-seeking Taernadal rather than the fairly quiet and gloomy Aereni. They don't seem the type to go beyond a dirge and a solemn chant. But back to the main point: Valenar could probably see them as either a curse or a gift, and I'd be hard pressed to rule a cultural way that anyone sees the Abberant D'marks. Mostly a case-by-case basis, then; thanks for the answer, though. :) Not quite what I meant about the Serens either. I was meaning they may show some signs of respect, because it is a dragonmark, aberrant or not. But they would fear it, because it is an abomination of Khyber, a mark evil. Small aside here, as this is something else I have been wondering about: is it actually definite that the aberrant-marks are evil and related to Khyber? It's mentioned as a common belief, yes, but how much of this is House-propaganda - or more precisely (since making it difficult to tell truth from superstition is part of what makes Eberron what it is, so we can't tell for sure) is this opinion shared by people outside Khorvaire? They would probably refrain from killing it if they could get some response from the dragons, but I don't see the AD person surviving long if they realize there is no response forthcoming from the dragons. Ah, okay. Thanks for clarifying. :) But, you could try to disguise the aberrant mark as a real mark, which could be interesting... There is a spell in dragonmarked doing that, though I am personally loathe to allow it without acess to the vaults and libraries of House Tarkannan. Unless the aberrant-marked is a genius himself.
Syltorian 03-13-07, 01:31 PM	Sorry for the double post; saw this one too late, and editting is always so confusing for people reading the thread... Aberrant marks in Aerenal are probably treated with a great deal of care. Think of it this way: if you're an aberrant marked elf, that means you could very well have Mark of Death blood in you. A while back that was definitely grounds for being killed. Maybe it still is. I had briefly thought about how an elf with a mixed mark would be treated, since, as you say, he would have to have the Mark of Death connections. Probably he would have to worry as much about a certain lich as about the Aereni, and perhaps even the Chamber. However, not every aberrant mark is a mixed mark. In fact, according to Dragonmarked, there are differences: a mixed mark actually shares the blue-green tone of the true dragonmarks, unlike the "regular" aberrant mark (Dragonmarked p.156, sidebar). Many aberrant marks, as I understand it, crop up at random, without any link to the Houses... so an aberrant marked elf might have Mark of Death blood, but not necessarily more so than any other elf in his community.
Sivis 03-13-07, 04:56 PM	On the subject of Aerenal elves having dragonmarks. They mention, I think in the Dragonmarked, that SOME elves in Aerenal gain a Mark of Shadow. They mostly become rogues and spies. And as we know from evolution if they keep on having kids the gene will be passed on. ^Sivis^
UnderworldLord 03-13-07, 06:07 PM	First thing I absolutely must address is that marks are by no means only genetic; they are magical, as much as genetic, and just because two heirs of siberys wed and have children, does not mean the child will bear a siberys mark. That being said back to a prior point. I didn't mean to say or imply the Valenar had no art, I'm just trying to substantiate the differences between the two elf cultures. The Valenar live a rough existance, often short and violent, and its wonderfully poetic thought that someone might choose short, dead, and famous, but I personally find it doubtful that an Aereni elf would become a Valenar, when he can achieve all of the above by being an adventurer, or working for the wayfinder foundation and other such organizations. And his chances of fame are higher there than with the Valenar. But I have a better question: What about the Gnomes? How would they treat the aberrant marks? Would they dissapear when the Trust found them?
Sivis 03-13-07, 06:10 PM	First thing I absolutely must address is that marks are by no means only genetic; they are magical, as much as genetic, and just because two heirs of siberys wed and have children, does not mean the child will bear a siberys mark. That being said back to a prior point. I didn't mean to say or imply the Valenar had no art, I'm just trying to substantiate the differences between the two elf cultures. The Valenar live a rough existance, often short and violent, and its wonderfully poetic thought that someone might choose short, dead, and famous, but I personally find it doubtful that an Aereni elf would become a Valenar, when he can achieve all of the above by being an adventurer, or working for the wayfinder foundation and other such organizations. And his chances of fame are higher there than with the Valenar. But I have a better question: What about the Gnomes? How would they treat the aberrant marks? Would they dissapear when the Trust found them? Yes I know, but the Dragonmark is carried genetically but chosen magically. On the thing of gnomes and the Trust: I think the gnomes would use the aberrant gnome. I havent read alot of the Trust but from what I have read I think they would use them. What about dwarves?
UnderworldLord 03-13-07, 06:29 PM	My thing is that the gnomes seem like the ones that try to keep the status quo in society. Dwarves seem like they'd be pretty neutral about it though. Really it seems like only humans and maybe half-elves have a problem with aberrant marks, but thats probably because its the easiest way to get a mixed mark. Dunno about the half orcs either come to think about it.
Syltorian 03-14-07, 07:57 AM	Regarding the Aereni-to-Tairnadal convert debate: I perfectly agree that only very few Aereni would go over to the Tairnadal, and those who remain behind will certainly shake their heads over the matter. Likewise, I can see few Valenar going over to the Aereni life, because it would seem like an eternal prison to them. Such converts will be extremely rare, for the reasons you mention: so I am by no means contradicting you. But there might also be other reasons, beside the poetic live well, die young topos. What if an Aereni falls in love with a Valenar? What if he believes he has actually been visited by the spirit of an ancestor he is to emulate (whether or not he is delusional)? Rescued by the Valenar after his family was exterminated in a draconic assault, back in the days of the war? All would be very rare, still. But back to the actual topic. ;) But I have a better question: What about the Gnomes? How would they treat the aberrant marks? Would they dissapear when the Trust found them? I would agree with Sivis: the Trust would try to recruit them pretty quickly. That takes them somewhat out of regular society, and makes them very useful. Gnomes don't squander resources. If the aberrant shows signs of actual madness, though, he'll probably disappear. If nothing else, they'd also be likely to end up in some hidden laboratory of the Korranberg Library, for research purposes. As for half-Orcs, that's another good question. House Tharashk never participated in the War of the Mark, iirc, being discovered only afterwards. A large part of them follows the Dragon Below to begin with, assuming that the marks are actually connected to Khyber. The Marchers also seem willing to accept half-daelkyr and the symbiont-using impure princes, as long as they don't get lost to the Daelkyr side. Overall, I could see that the Marches are probably one of the best places to be for an aberrant-marked.
Nuclear_Buddha 03-14-07, 01:17 PM	However, not every aberrant mark is a mixed mark. In fact, according to Dragonmarked, there are differences: a mixed mark actually shares the blue-green tone of the true dragonmarks, unlike the "regular" aberrant mark (Dragonmarked p.156, sidebar). Many aberrant marks, as I understand it, crop up at random, without any link to the Houses... so an aberrant marked elf might have Mark of Death blood, but not necessarily more so than any other elf in his community. Of course, that's why I said "may very well." Mixed or no, why take chances? It was important enough to wipe out the whole family in the first place, so... But yeah, such an elf would be doomed to lead an interesting life.
UnderworldLord 03-14-07, 01:24 PM	But yeah, such an elf would be doomed to lead an interesting life. Aren't all adventurer's though? ;)
Nuclear_Buddha 03-16-07, 06:07 PM	Some more than others. Being hunted for an accident of birth is an extra complication.
UnderworldLord 03-17-07, 11:08 AM	I always figured being an adventurer had to be an accident of birth... but thats just me ! :D
Syltorian 03-19-07, 01:08 PM	Of course, that's why I said "may very well." Mixed or no, why take chances? It was important enough to wipe out the whole family in the first place, so... True. Few people will know (or take the chance, as you say) that a mixed mark actually looks different from other aberrant marks. If it actually turns out to be a mixed mark, it can only be Shadow/Death. While not necessarily a straight death penalty (situation has changed: House Vol is no political danger anymore, and does not go cavorting with dragons), he'll draw a lot of attention and become a pawn of greater powers pretty fast... as in the novels. Some ideas/recapitulation - much of this will be highly controversial, but I'd be happy to hear any opinions: General: Stories of the aberrant marked as mad, destructive, and even boogey-men (in Sharn) lead people to react badly towards those who are so marked. The horrors of the last war and generally good laws of Galifar have blunted the impact of these stories. As a result, aberrant marked are not hunted down or burnt at the stake anymore, but the main reaction is still unfriendly (refusing services, leaving the room, getting children out of the way). Zilargo: Aberrant-marked either disappear, or serve the Trust. The Trust will look out for aberrant marked, but they do so for everyone, anway. Though Sivis holds some influence there, and may not be happy with aberrant marked, Gnome curiosity and desire to use whatever comes their way for their own advantages, as well as the desire to have Zilargo appear utterly an utopia balances the reactions to an (outwardly) indifferent attitude, which should not be trusted however. Aerenal: The Aereni do not like any of the dragonmarked. They have wiped out one House and another has fled the island. The Houses are restricted to a single port city, though some shadow-marked serve in the Deathguard or the Caerdal Blades. Some of the Aberrant Marked could be very useful there, too. However, there is no background of the War of the Mark and no propaganda against the aberrant-marked. Personally, I'd assume that aberrant dragonmarked are treated not too differently from true dragonmarked: both are probably met with unfriendly reactions. Valenar/Tairnadal: While they do not like Phiarlan/Thuranni, that is because they have betrayed Aerenal by fleeing the island, not because of the dragonmark per se. They also did not become too involved in the House Vol affair, and, like the Aereni, have no tradition of mad aberrant marked destroying entire towns. They are, despite their violent nature, more likely to give aberrant marked a chance to prove themselves as individuals. Overall, I expect the Tairnadal to be indifferent, preferring to know what you do with your mark rather than what it is. Serens: The Serens respect dragonmarks, including aberrant ones. They do not have any ideological baggage remaining from the War of the Mark, though they might fear rather than adore the aberrant marks. A decree by a dragon or the dictates of their founders might change their attitudes, but in general, Serens will be initially friendly towards aberrant-marked, as well as true-marked, if in a much more fearful way. Darguun: The goblins care little about dragonmarks to begin with, and Darguun is a haven for runaways and other people seeking to hide from the outer world. Power and strength is important in some clans, and an aberrant-marked might be able to gain some position here. The Dhakaani might see links with the Daelkyr and Khyber, though, and be unfriendly or hostile at the start; everyone else in Darguun will be indifferent. Of the Dragonmarked Houses: Deneith and Cannith are the most hostile. They were the leaders in the War of the Mark, and still keep up the greatest traditions of how evil and mad the aberrant were. Their heirs are most repulsed by the aberrant marked. Ghallanda, on the other hand, is the most friendly. They allow aberrant marked into their own house, and thus do not seem to put much weight onto the traditions of the other houses. They are likely not influenced by whether others have an aberrant mark or not, as long as they do not burn the inn down. Tharashk's part of the family that worships the Dragon Below might also be more friendly disposed towards the aberrants, but the rest of the house won't. Sivis tends towards hostile, but is too interested in dragonmarks in general to waste such resources. Aberrant marked are more likely to end up in research units than being excoriated or hunted down; though the latter might be a preferable fate. Medani is described as a bit of a rebel against the Twelve, and was actually mistaken for an aberrant mark at first; Cannith and Deneith forced them to take their current form in the War of the Mark. This might actually make them sympathetic towards the aberrant marked, if only to spite the other houses.