Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Splendor 05-04-07, 06:42 PM	Whats the cost and Stats for a Air Skiff? (Whispers of the Vampires Blade Module)?
CannibalSmith 05-07-07, 03:00 PM	As far as I know, it's unstatted.
Tevin Kevlak 05-11-07, 06:03 PM	A better question would be how thy keep up with, and fly alongside, two airships when they seemingly don't have an elemental bound to them.
CannibalSmith 05-11-07, 06:32 PM	But since they're mentioned only in novels, and novels are not canon, then air skiffs themselves are not canon and thus do not exist at all. Yes?
JustX 05-11-07, 10:10 PM	But since they're mentioned only in novels, and novels are not canon, then air skiffs themselves are not canon and thus do not exist at all. Yes? Actually, they were stated in a Dragon Magazine. I believe that they are infact faster than an air ship. You can find the info in issue #329
CannibalSmith 05-12-07, 01:00 PM	Is Dragon magazine canon?
Tevin Kevlak 05-12-07, 04:44 PM	They were also introduced in the Eberron module Grasp of The Emerald Claw which, I believe, makes them quite canon.
JustX 05-12-07, 11:32 PM	Is Dragon magazine canon? Does it matter? The moment you make a character and put it into Eberron, that verson of Eberron has diverged from canon. Nothing is canon unless your game is turned into some sort of accessory to the setting.
CannibalSmith 05-13-07, 01:27 AM	Yes. If they're not canon then questions like "Whats the cost and Stats for a Air Skiff?" become moot as no definitive answer can be given. It's just that I neither read novels nor Dragon magazine. Thus I didn't even know air skiffs "exist" before this thread.
Miss_Yersinia 05-13-07, 06:03 PM	Whats the cost and Stats for a Air Skiff? (Whispers of the Vampires Blade Module (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/eberron/864300000))? Yes. If they're not canon then questions like "Whats the cost and Stats for a Air Skiff?" become moot as no definitive answer can be given. It's just that I neither read novels nor Dragon magazine. Thus I didn't even know air skiffs "exist" before this thread. But 1) this has nothing to do with "canon", because people could still have some stats... 2) They were mentioned in "Whisper of the Vampire's Blade" - an adventure (i.e. official gaming material), not a novel or Dragon magazine.
JustX 05-14-07, 01:31 PM	Yes. If they're not canon then questions like "Whats the cost and Stats for a Air Skiff?" become moot as no definitive answer can be given. It's just that I neither read novels nor Dragon magazine. Thus I didn't even know air skiffs "exist" before this thread. Wow. I don't know about your games, but in mine, new things are being created all the time and we really haven't had a problem trying to figure out a price. I don't think people come here looking or needing a definitive answer, but something that can put them on the path to what they are looking for. I'm sorry if it looks like an attack on you, but I hate when people fall into that canon or non-canon debate. The very concept of canon is anthema to those of us that started role playing to tell fantastic stories that tested the imagination of ourselves and our gamers. Sure the rules are a guide on how to apply things, but when canon became involved, it became a different monster. Homebrewed campaign worlds were not the exception, but the norm. Then one day something changed and people started to feel that they needed permission from the developers to write a story for the players in their games. Role playing became something more like choose your own adventures novels and the DMs gave up creativity for conformity. The problem with canon is that it doesn't let you expand your imagination and you become bogged down in the decisions that other people have made for a world. As you do that, how do you go about creating new worlds like Eberron in the first place? Canon is just a way for people with a lack of imagination to retell stories that happened in the world (a have a fall back that it's 'canon" so they don't take the blame if the story sucks) and a weapon to use against people that wish to use their imaginations to tell the stories in their world. Okay, rant off. Canon is just one of those button pushing issues that turns real role playing into something interchangable with MMORPGs. While as fun as online and video game RPGs can be, they couldn't and never should be able to hold a candle against the endless choice that roleplaying offered before things like canon got involved with the game.
CannibalSmith 05-14-07, 01:53 PM	It's cool. [..] and we really haven't had a problem trying to figure out a price. Share your version of the airskiff with us, please.
Alex_ 05-14-07, 02:15 PM	I don't think people come here looking or needing a definitive answer, but something that can put them on the path to what they are looking for. Quite the contrary. The first things you'll find people usually want is an answer from published material. They might not like it or use it, but it is usually is the answer they want before the endless sea of user created content. "Canon" sources tend to be more highly valued because they are published by Wizards of the Coast. As such, it is generally expected that the people creating the material have a greater understanding of the rules, the concepts and themes behind the material in question, and have probably put the material through some play-testing or have a better grasp than normal about how it might impact the game- at leas moreso than many homebrews and houserules. Not that homebrew and houserules can't work, but it is much trickier. The very concept of canon is anthema to those of us that started role playing to tell fantastic stories that tested the imagination of ourselves and our gamers. This I can't agree with. I have seen far too many Tolkien and Computer Game derivative Homebrews and more than enough interesting, imaginative, or new (to me at least) ideas in published settings. I've also seen ambitious homebrews overladden themselves with complexity and imbalance (mostly with houserules and conflicting series of events) so as to completely implode upon themselves. I've noticed this more often amongst homebrews than published settings. As you do that, how do you go about creating new worlds like Eberron in the first place? With a very good understanding of the rules, months (if not years) of thinking, rethinking, and modification, and lots pf playtesting and input from others. It is an arduous undertaking if you want to create a richer, more complex, and more internally consistent world. Canon is just a way for people with a lack of imagination to retell stories that happened in the world (a have a fall back that it's 'canon" so they don't take the blame if the story sucks) and a weapon to use against people that wish to use their imaginations to tell the stories in their world. Sometimes someone else is better at world creation. There should be no more shame in enjoying a published setting than there should be in enjoying a novel, a song, or a meal. Sure you didn't create it yourself, but that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable or even higher quality than your own. And sometimes it benefits the players.
JustX 05-14-07, 10:56 PM	Sometimes someone else is better at world creation. There should be no more shame in enjoying a published setting than there should be in enjoying a novel, a song, or a meal. Sure you didn't create it yourself, but that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable or even higher quality than your own. And sometimes it benefits the players. I agree that someone else's could be better at world creation, but the problem is that sometimes there are people that can be far better at crafting a story than what's in a published adventure. I don't think that published adventures are a bad thing at all, but I belive that every single memorable game that I have ever played in or run in the last twenty-four years were ones that were created for the characters in the story and made to test the players to bring something greater to the table. Published adventures are great for giving DMs time off to recharge their imaginations. They are also good for giving a look into one view of the world, but more times than not published adventures are written by people that have just about the same resources as anyone that has read all of the books. Just because a game company cuts them a check doesn't make them better than your local DM in telling a story. Hell, more times than not, many published adventures include something that contridicts the rules as written. Hell even the various suppliments have created conflit with the main rules. So, no I don't think that someone that writes for a company has some better understanding than someone that writes for the enjoyment of their players. Remember, the only difference between 'canon' and 'homebrew' is a paycheck and publishing.
CannibalSmith 05-15-07, 01:47 AM	Canon serves as the common ground for all of us. If you make something up you must clearly indicate it, lest your thread is devoured by offtopic debates.
Alex_ 05-16-07, 06:09 PM	I agree that someone else's could be better at world creation, but the problem is that sometimes there are people that can be far better at crafting a story than what's in a published adventure. Sure there are. Nothing about the existence of published adventures keeps people who can and are willing to do better ones from doing so. but more times than not published adventures are written by people that have just about the same resources as anyone that has read all of the books. Just because a game company cuts them a check doesn't make them better than your local DM in telling a story. No, just getting a check doesn't make them better. However, a far larger ratio of published adventure/setting writers have experience doing so than DMs. The level of quality is not guaranteed to be better than the best DM, however, it almost is guaranteed to be better than the worst. The worst DMs at the comic book store can still run their own games. They don't get published settings/adventures though. Hell, more times than not, many published adventures include something that contridicts the rules as written. Hell even the various supplements have created conflit with the main rules. So, no I don't think that someone that writes for a company has some better understanding than someone that writes for the enjoyment of their players. But the rules conflicts in published material is much less common than what occurs amongst players. Many are simply typographical in nature. Also, when you take into account the sheer amount of information in a campaign setting, mistakes are sure to happen. Remember, the only difference between 'canon' and 'homebrew' is a paycheck and publishing. I disagree. Imagine if EVERY user created feat, weapon, class, spell, race, etc you see posted on the D&D boards were actually pulled from published material. There is a big difference, and that is that the stuff that gets published undergoes a greater degree of scrutiny and quality control than much of what gets posted.
OctaviusIII 05-18-07, 08:21 PM	*ahem* Back on topic, sort of: In our campaign, we have a sort of pseudo-living construct air battleship, which is ridiculously awesome anyway. As for the airskiffs that go with it, they're essentially air speeders, although we had to give them up. Still, there's very little cooler than making a getaway from Inevitables through Sharn in one of those. (Come to think of it, that whole scene was very Star Wars-esque...)
Adamaro23 05-19-07, 03:12 AM	Air skiffs are also mentioned in the Voyage of the Golden Dragon Adventure.
Dragoloth 05-19-07, 10:58 PM	Therte is a firesled in Secrets of Xen'Drik on pg. 146. It only holds 2 people(the skiff holds eight) and costs around 75k. Although the firesled only holds two it has offensive weapons. I would price the skiff(it is elemental bound) at about 70k. Give it a speed of 120 with good manuverability, 1600 lbs. weight limit, and enough room for eight people(6 passengers and 2 crew).
OzyBurrfoot 05-29-07, 09:58 AM	Not really what I'd call a skiff, but I had previously been looking for a smaller, more managable sized airship and heres what Save vs DM wrote up for me. How does this work for ya? Airpinnace The airpinnace is a small airship that has been bound with a large air elemental. This sturdy vessel is not nearly as large as a standard airship but makes up for small size with maneuverability and speed. Legend holds that the first airpinnace was commissioned by a private Windwright Captain who wanted a small vessel he and his adventuring companions could use to traverse Khorvaire. These vessels are only made upon commission for a high price. Unlike standard airships, an airpinnace can mount two weapons. Airpinnace: Gargantuan vehicle; Airthworthiness +2; Shiphandling +2; Speed Fly 120 feet. (average); Overall AC 1; Hull sections 4 (crash 1 section); Section hp 50 (hardness 5); Section AC 3; Ram 3d6; Mounts 2 light; SA air ring; SQ resistance to fire 10, hover; Space 30 ft. by 10 ft.; Height 10 ft. (air ring has 30-ft. diameter); Complement 15; Watch 3; Cargo 30 tons; Cost 50,000 gp. Hover: Despite its maneuverability rating, an airpinnace can hover and has no minimum speed required to maintain air travel. It cannot turn in place, however. Ring: An airpinnace uses an air elemental bound into a ring, which deals 2d8 points of bludgeoning damage to any creature or object it touches. Aura: Strong conjuration, CL 15th. Construction: Bind Elemental, greater planar binding, 25,000 gp, 2,000 XP, 50 days. Price: 50,000 gp. A standard airpinnace has a lower hold that doubles as crew quarters with a tiny galley in the aft of the vessel and beams for hanging hammocks. The deck is generally kept clear but can house a few additional crew members if space is tight. The sterncastle contains cramped quarters for the captain and a tiny table used to display maps. A wheel of wind and water can be mounted atop the sterncastle for the standard price. The dragonshard holding the elemental is housed in a locked steel box in a small compartment underneath the floor of the captains quarters. The only huge vessel was little more than a glorified rowboat, I think that something modeled on a pinnace will work well enough, though. This is the perfect vessel for an adventuring windwright captain and his crew of adventuring companions. Cheers, Save vs DM
ksbsnowowl 07-09-07, 07:33 AM	Actually, they were stated in a Dragon Magazine. I believe that they are infact faster than an air ship. You can find the info in issue #329Excellent! This is the first I've heard of actual, published stats for these usful but annoying (without stats, anyway) airskiffs. I'll have to take the time to locate a copy soon. In the meantime (as I'm running Whispers of the Vampire's Blade and the Cloud's Destiny encounter tonight), could you answer one small question for me? Do these stated skiffs have bound elementals or not? Control issues I can make up myself until I get a copy of said magazine. Assuming they do have bound elementals (Medium Elemental, probably?), I was planning to use the standard opposed charisma checks listed in the ECS, perhaps with a magic rod as part of the craft's helm that granted the holder a +5 or +10 competence bonus on Charisma checks to control said elemental. I would price this rod similarly to a skill bonus item (boots of elvenkind, etc.) with a price of (Bonus)^2*100 gp, but modified to half that calculated cost because the rod only works to control bound elementals. It cannot be used for any other kind of Charisma check. So, again, if someone could just tell me if the statted airskiffs in Dragon #329 are Bound-Elemental craft or not, I'd be greatly appreciative.
Moldiver 07-11-07, 09:10 PM	Yes, the craft described in Dragon #329 is elemental bound. It's actually powered by a large fire elemental.
The White Sorcerer 07-12-07, 03:35 AM	So, again, if someone could just tell me if the statted airskiffs in Dragon #329 are Bound-Elemental craft or not, I'd be greatly appreciative. The craft in Dragon 329 is elemental-bound, but it's not an airskiff. Here's a picture of what I believe is an airskiff: http://wizards.com/dnd/images/ebw_gallery/82882.jpg So unless some text contradicts it, I'd say they're elemenal-bound.
Kobolds_rule 07-17-07, 02:40 AM	But since they're mentioned only in novels, and novels are not canon, then air skiffs themselves are not canon and thus do not exist at all. Yes? Who cares if something is "canon" or not, if you can find stats for it you may as well use it, if you can't, you can make up the stats. It's your game.