Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mahavira 07-13-07, 06:06 PM	I've been working on a cult for a game I'm running, and am looking for some feedback. It is a Drow cult of the Silver Flame, which has been perverted into a rather different form. The idea is that the Flame requires fuel, and observing that the fuel of ordinary flames is charred and blackened, the fuel of the Flame must be spiritually burned and blackened. The cult believes that the devils of Shavarrath were originally Archons which sacrificed their purity and beauty to feed the flame, and now in their current forms are that much better at fighting the forces of Chaos (the founder subtly misread the purpose of the Flame). Would-be members dress in their funeral shrouds and lie down upon a funeral pyre, which is then set alight with magic. The resultant flames are agonizing, but primarily mental (attribute damage to int, wis and cha), though if an aspirant is 'unworthy' (has inadequate mental stats) he is burned to ashes. Once the flames have run their course, the newly baptized Pyreborn spends some time recovering, then then is admitted to the order, with the fine white ashes from their initiation fire used to tattoo their skin . Like the Silver Flame, this is a militant sect that feels duty bound to hunt and destroy supernatural threats, or at least chaotic ones (they venerate the Shavarath devils as saints), and as a result they can often be found in Khyber fighting abberations or fiends. The initiation process imbues many aspirants with the powers of a warlock, and Hellfire Warlocks or Eldritch discliples are often leaders of groups of Pyreborn. Pyreborn are often identifiable by sight, as they often paint themselves with ashes or wear funerary clothing. Their symbol, however, is exactly the same as that of the Silver Flame. Individual members tend towards asceticism and mortification of the flesh, and captured enemies may be burned alive as sacrifices to the Flame. While Pyreborn and conventional servants of the Flame might conceivably cooperate in some circumstances (fighting demons, Rakshasa, or undead), the Pyreborn hold the naive beliefs of conventional Flamers in contempt, and the groups might also come into conflict if the Pyreborn begin persecuting chaotic good fey. Game information: Alignment: lawful evil (but turns undead rather than rebuking) Domains: fire, exorcism, law, destruction Favored weapon: can't decide? Suggestions are welcome.
Rerecros 07-13-07, 06:24 PM	This is interesting, but I have some problems with it. The silver flame, as a big fire, exists solely in thrane, everywhere else it is more of something that apears in visions. The flame is a lawful good force, and I don't see it calling those who would corrupt it's cause. Like being a paladin, being called to the silver flame is destiny. So I'd still expect most adherents to be lawful good. While I like the whole self-mortification, firewalking aspect, to detriment their mental scores would turn them into an atavistic state, not worthy of the call. I'd imagine initiation to be painful and scaring, but not going to make them less effective. Like that box that guy from dune put his hand in. The Bene Gesserit Littainy against Fear. Pg 19 of Dune I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
mahavira 07-13-07, 06:41 PM	This is interesting, but I have some problems with it. The silver flame, as a big fire, exists solely in thrane, everywhere else it is more of something that apears in visions. The flame is a lawful good force, and I don't see it calling those who would corrupt it's cause. Like being a paladin, being called to the silver flame is destiny. So I'd still expect most adherents to be lawful good. While I like the whole self-mortification, firewalking aspect, to detriment their mental scores would turn them into an atavistic state, not worthy of the call. I'd imagine initiation to be painful and scaring, but not going to make them less effective. Like that box that guy from dune put his hand in. The Bene Gesserit Littainy against Fear. Pg 19 of Dune I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. Attribute -damage-, not attribute drain. A week or so of rest and they're back to full function (faster with lesser restoration). I quite agree an initiation that crippled aspirants, either mentally or physically, would be counterproductive. I'd initially thought of having it be relatively normal fire, but the aspirant is, unbeknownst to him, subject to a resist fire spell, but if everyone survived the whole risking death aspect of the process woud be lost. As to the issue of the flame not calling those who would corrupt its cause, there are lawful evil clerics of the flame in canon materials (Krozen, for example). Besides, this is Eberron: you don't have to be worshipping X deity properly, you have to THINK you're doing it properly (either that or the LoB is much more powerful than people let on...). The drow may have just read some badly translated texts from the Serpent Cults of the giant empire and missed the point (or for that matter, Tira Mirron may have missed the point, being a human spirit trying to understand an impersonal force). Orcish worship of the Binding Flame in the Demon Wastes predates the manifestation of the Flame in Thrane.
Rerecros 07-13-07, 07:20 PM	I didn't say all it's members have to be LG, but the group as a whole should have a LG lean. The members called directly would have some sort of divine connection to the flame, and are likely LG. But the rest of the followers are under no such restriction. You should loose the part about the warlocks being a big part of the operation (not that there wouldn't be any). Drow Warlocks are more associated with the khyber worshiping umbra drow. But I think shadowbane stalkers and inquisitors would work great for this group. And even if they are LG, they can still make mistakes, and wrongly kill things they believe are tainted. But LE group would purposely kill things they see as impure, and even if they found out they were wrong, they would still deem it's extermination necessary. Edit: I think you can have use actual fire, and then use magic to remove the wounds if they survive, but they gain no magical healing if they leave the fire early, or scream in pain.
mahavira 07-14-07, 12:55 AM	Well, I did mention that they would persecute CG fey. The distinction between chaos and evil can be rather subtle (read any alignment or paladin thread on the main D&D boards), and the kind of religious fanatic that voluntarily gets on a pyre to join up may not be good at the niceties. As to alignment, there doesn't seem to be any connection between the alignment of the deity (if any) and the alignment of the followers, even for divine casters (Paladins excepted, of course), and this is presuming that they actually worship the Silver Flame rather than having been led astray by a clever devil in humanoid form. As to warlocks, I am familliar with the Umbragen, but I feel that a hellfire warlock (the exemplar of Pyreborn warlocks in my vision) is sufficiently different thematically from an Umbragen shadow warlock that it's just a matter of game mechanics.
Rerecros 07-14-07, 01:13 AM	I don't give much credit to the ignorant bile produced by alignment/paladin debates, chaos is in no way, shape or form a pseudo-evil. I do agree that they don't have to be unified in alignment at all. But as an organization, it should be LG. A lawful good organization might try to destroy the fey if they were lead to believe they were somehow a threat, but a lawful evil organization would simply decide they don't like fey and systematically exterminate them for it's own sake. A LG organization need not be compossed of LG followers, or even have a LG leader, all it requires are LG goals. Oh, and about the favored weapon, I think Falchion. I like the idea of a Drow Devoted Inquisitor doing a power attack, smite, critical with added sneak attack damage from telling blow with a Falchion :D
mahavira 07-14-07, 01:51 AM	I don't give much credit to the ignorant bile produced by alignment/paladin debates, chaos is in no way, shape or form a pseudo-evil. I do agree that they don't have to be unified in alignment at all. But as an organization, it should be LG. A lawful good organization might try to destroy the fey if they were lead to believe they were somehow a threat, but a lawful evil organization would simply decide they don't like fey and systematically exterminate them for it's own sake. A LG organization need not be compossed of LG followers, or even have a LG leader, all it requires are LG goals. Oh, and about the favored weapon, I think Falchion. I like the idea of a Drow Devoted Inquisitor doing a power attack, smite, critical with added sneak attack damage from telling blow with a Falchion :D While I tend to agree with you on the subject of alignment/paladin threads, my point was actually that lots of people are incapable of distinguishing chaos and evil, and fanatics are especially prone to this. I also misunderstood what you meant about the organization being LG: if you mean at least 50% of the members are good, then definately not, if you mean the goals of the organization are good but methods somewhat dubious, I can live with that. The goals of the organization are to keep the Rajahs imprisoned, the Daelkir away from normal creatures, and dead things dead like they're supposed to be. The organization exists to protect the drow community it's from (and indirectly everyone else because of the universal nature of the threats they fight). One could certainly say this is a selfless goal, but the members of the organization believe their initiation burned the goodness and purity out of them (to feed the flame) and what remains is for them to use their remaining existence to destroy the physical manifestations of 'evil'. Goodness, purity, these are luxuries that their sacrifice allows others to have. In any case, the reason I decided to have this organization is that I usually portray the Silver Flame as genuinely good people, and thought it would be jarring to present a distorted reflection. Their presence in the campaign is to serve as possible uneasy allies: they are fighting a group of Derro who are drilling into a Rajah's prison in Khyber (the same Derro are responsible for dropping a town into a sinkhole and slave raids). While the PCs share an enemy with the Pyreborn, I want them uncomfortable with the idea of collaborating with them. Oh, and you're right about falchions being suitable: scimitars are the traditional weapons of Valenar, Aerenal, and the Sulatar drow, so it would seem to be a suitable traditional weapon.
Rerecros 07-14-07, 02:08 AM	A half-Erinye drow would make a really good leader for these guys :D Edit: Personally, the only interest in planar travel i give to the beings of Shavarath is to escape the war, or to gain fresh blood. An Erinye may have found it self in xendrik and found these brutal cunning creatures (the drow) worthy of becoming cannon fodder. So he took the role of an angel and used existing myths dealing with the dragon below. He trained and united a group of them, taught them to hate demons. While trying to return home, he fashioned a portal, but it was demons who came out and slain the Erinye. And the group went on. I imagine them as being darkage technologically. Better than the primitive tribes, but not as advanced as the other drow. Building forts out of wood and stone, with a few experts like a blacksmith and such in the village. Oh, and lets not go overboard on the fire theme, the Sulatar already have that covered.
mahavira 07-14-07, 11:38 AM	I remember reading a thread (maybe an ask Keith Baker thread, but I don't remember exactly) which talked about beliefs that the conflict in Shavarrath influenced events elsewhere and/or the converse. Whether the theory is true or not, if a group of devils believes it, it would make sense to set up a group of local proxies to fight for order on other planes. Erinyes are the most likely choice for such evangelism, as they are clearly fallen angels rather than just some other kind of demon. As for the level of technology, I think even the savage tribes are more sophisticated than they look: long knives are made of forged metal, and I would imagine scorpion chains take a fair amount of skill to make properly. I get the impression that the main reason most Xendrik drow are nomadic is that building fortifications that will keep giants out is easier said than done. In any case, I envisioned a group somewhat similar to the Sulatar (either a splinter sect of their religion, or a neighboring tribe that has taken on some of their practices the way Gaulish tribes near Roman territory took on Roman practices even before they were conquered). If nothing else, fighting supernatural threats effectively takes good metallurgy: you have to be able to forge alchemical silver, cold iron, byesk, and the like. I was going to give them the mithril substitute that the Sulatar use, but not the volcanic glass or elemental binding (to be honest, the widespread use of elemental binding is more central to the Sulatar shtick to me than fire is). As to more general fire themes, I wasn't going to have them worship fire generally or even use flaming weapons (useless against most outsiders anyway), and their ceremonial braziers and the like would have some alchemical powder that makes the fire look silver (similar to the way fireworks manufacturers make the sparks green, red or whatever). Distinct enough, or are there any tweaks you can think of?