Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Syltorian 04-20-07, 03:29 PM	It has just occured to me that the new druids spells in the ECS are exclusive to the Gatekeeper druids. I was wondering what this means for Archivist characters (Heroes of Horror base class). Could an archivist add these spells to his list, provided he finds something to copy them down from (befriend a Gatekeeper, join the sect, discover an ancient site were Vharaak taught the first druids) or the like? Or would the "Gatekeeper only" restriction prevail, so that the archivist might understand the magic, but lack a certain "faith" component to follow through on the ritual? On a similar note, how about the spells in the Thrane section of Five Nations that are exclusive to the Silver Flame?
Fabius Maximus 04-20-07, 04:45 PM	Yes, Archivists can cast druid spells if they find scrolls. In Eberron, Faith is not specifically tied to a certain diety.
Syltorian 04-20-07, 06:00 PM	They can cast druid spells, but how about spells that only a certain sect of druids can cast - i.e. not even every druid can cast said Gatekeeper spells if I recall correctly. Similarily, the spells on p.155 of Five Nations state that "only clerics and paladins of the Silver Flame can cast this spell" (Flamebound Symbol; Flamebound Weapon - the latter only for paladins). This is thus a bit of a different situation. A Paladin of Dol Arrah cannot cast Flamebound Symbol, so should an Archivist of Dol Arrah or an archivist of, say, the Keeper be able to? Or only an Archivist of the Silver Flame? In other words, does the fact that an archivist casts his spells virtually without Faith but by studying rituals supercede the barrier that prevents a Paladin (on whose class list the spell is) of Dol Arrah from casting this spell?
Cifer 04-20-07, 06:45 PM	Archivists are capable of learning and casting any divine spells as long as they find the proper scrolls, which of course means that people knowing the spells and knowing about archivists will make certain there are as few written versions of the spells as possible. After all, Chaos Hammer is also available purely to clerics with the Chaos domain and no other ones - this doesn't translate into the archivist being unable to learn it, does it?
Syltorian 04-20-07, 06:55 PM	Thanks, Cifer. So in essence, since archivists can use domain spells, they can also use Gatekeeper-only spells and Silver-Flame only spells, as well as spells given only to Initiates of various gods or druidic sects. As long as they find a written version somewhere, which should be suitably difficult.
Splendide 04-20-07, 09:36 PM	Better hope no-one wrote down the Create Deathless spell...
He Who Lurks 04-20-07, 11:12 PM	Artificers can't create scrolls of spells for the Archivist to learn, but Warlocks are under no such restriction :D At least, as far as I know.
Syltorian 04-21-07, 06:54 AM	Better hope no-one wrote down the Create Deathless spell... Yikes. Or Spirit Steed... Vadalis comes one step closer to creating those Valenar horsies... :D
Fabius Maximus 04-21-07, 09:16 AM	Why shouldn't Archivists be able to copy spells from scrolls artificiers created?
Syltorian 04-21-07, 10:04 AM	I'm a bit hazy on the specifics, but I believe the scrolls artificers create are not divine. Nor are they arcane... someone who did more than glance at that debate may know more specifics, however.
Fabius Maximus 04-21-07, 01:10 PM	That only means to me that both arcanists and divine casters can use them.
He Who Lurks 04-21-07, 02:18 PM	They "clarified" the artificer's ability to create magic items by saying that the scrolls that artificers create are neither arcane nor divine (this goes for all magic items created by artificers). Therefore the artificer can't just churn out spells for the other characters to learn. Other classes (and maybe even the artificer himself) has to make a UMD check to cast the spells from the scrolls, and can't record them in their spell/prayerbooks.
KidChainsaw 04-21-07, 03:07 PM	Don't have my ECS book handy but I remember something about a distinction between "spells" and "infusions" - that artificiers manipulate magic thorugh material objects but do not cast spells per se. By that logic, an artificier cant churn out scolls for other casters to copy. As far as archivists learning Gatekeeper exclusive spells, there isn't a reason why they can't - there are plenty of reasons why they won't. First, Gatekeepers are supposed to be rare and confine themselves to the deep dark corners of the world - in some cases literal gateways to a Lovecraftian Hell. Per Faiths of Eberrron most of them aren't druids. Most gatekeepers are rangers and barbarians and have quite a different worldview than our bookworm archivist. "Sure, I teach you detect aberration. You just bring me aboleth happy-stick first, and use only sacred fruit knife." -Gork the half-orc Gatekeeper druid to Mortimer Snee, Resident Archivist of Comparative Religion of Morgrave University. Of course, these are the things of which adventures are made....
Cifer 04-22-07, 05:00 PM	He-Who-Lurks is correct. RAW, Artificers can't produce scrolls other characters can learn from. However, it's a common houserule that other characters with the spell on their spell list can use it without UMDing the scroll.
Dragom 04-23-07, 12:03 AM	A possibility of a Wizard with an Artificer Cohort and a pair of Aureon's Spellshard's gathering every spell in the game was deamed both game breaking and far too obvious. Hence the excessive Nerfing of the Artificers Scrolls. In general just don't let a caster copy of the Artificers Works and ignore the requirement of a UMD roll to activate them.