Artifice [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Artifice [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
androkguz
12-07-07, 03:02 PM A good story has a main theme.

Magic is a very interesting addition to any story. It can make a story both, better or worse, depending on how it's to be taken.

Magic can ruin a story if it can do anything, because that would mean there would be no challenges. I mean, if a wizard could do as much as Wanda in "Faerie Godfathers" then there would be no game (I still can't understand how they get in so many troubles).

But of course, that's not DnD.
In dnd magic is got limits... for each magic-wielder.

But magic must also have it's general limits in order to explain many in-game stuff: A spell that rebuilds a building doesn't make any challenge for the PCs any less challenging, but it does mean that the glass tower in Sharn can't be down. Such spell can't possibly be in the hands of any mortal (perhaps one or two).

But more than just a necesity to have a coherent game, magic should be strongly defined to have a good story.
Defined in what sense? Defined in limits for one. There should be many things that everyone knows that can't simply be done by magic (reviving someone who died of old age, knowing what happened between Siberis and Khyber, returning in time). This is important because it gives PCs a confidence that they can at least understand things in the world, that they can be certain that a castle isn't really a polymorphed sheep, or that all humans are really doppelgangers that are treated as humans and that ignore true seeing. They should be able to trust their true seeing. Because if they don't take some things as imposible, how do we expect them to be surprised when they find out they are not?
But magic should also be defined in another aspect: they way it works. Is it like a science or an art? Where does the power comes? How can it change?

In Eberron there are a lot of types of magic, so I have decided to run a campaing where the main topic is one of those types: Artifice.
What I want is PC to begin to understand to certain level artifice and it's secrets just as we get to understand alchemy all the way through Fullmetal Alchemist, learning some of it's laws, the ways it's aplied and finnally it's greatest secret that breaks the "law" of equivalence: the philosopher's stone.

I want my plots to be solvable. I want my PC to be able to guess right what is going on, and that can't happen unless there's some logic in artifice.

So I want artifice defined:

What is artifice good for? What can't it do? How does it work?

I want my PC to be able to expect eldrich machines to have certain vulnerability. The most tipical is just, being broken. Is there more ideas?

I want my PC to get into the mystery of the warforged (but that can be done in another thread).

For now, my thoughts:

-I think that artificers are just too general. Any artificer can do anything. That is not good. I would prefer artificers to be different from each other in some way.
-I think that magic items should have more arquetipes of functionallity. I mean, the only thing here that tells you where it's power comes from, how to destroy it (in a way different than the obvious), what does it needs to be made and some other fluff things that can actually manner in-game are the elemental vessels. I want more stuff like that. The rest sometimes tell you how they work, and that almost never means anything in-game.
-Artifice can do everything!! that's not good. Artificers making any scroll is not a good thing. In fact, I would really like a substitute to scrolls (schemas are better, but they do everything too)
-Artifice's strong spot should be constructs.
-It shouldn't be able to create life, just intelligence.

Important ideas that should be asociated with artifice:
-Constructs
-Infusions
-Schemas
-Artificers (duh)
-Alchemy
-Artifacts
-House Cannith
-Xen'drik

And I don't know, post something and help me here.
naturax
12-08-07, 10:33 AM Artifice in my game is the ability to create connections between Eberron on the planes, drawing energy from them to create effects. Artifice cannot create intelligence (as constructs have no thoughts of their own) but can bind elementals from other planes to things with Khyber shards.
Stingrey
12-08-07, 02:01 PM Artifice in my game is the ability to create connections between Eberron on the planes, drawing energy from them to create effects. Artifice cannot create intelligence (as constructs have no thoughts of their own) but can bind elementals from other planes to things with Khyber shards.

Hey, that's nice. I've never thought of that. Bu there's a problem, artifice can create intelligence. Just look at warforgeds.

I for one, think that the artificer should be able to do Animate Object infusions and Transmute Rock to mud infusions.
naturax
12-08-07, 05:01 PM Hey, that's nice. I've never thought of that. Bu there's a problem, artifice can create intelligence. Just look at warforgeds.

I for one, think that the artificer should be able to do Animate Object infusions and Transmute Rock to mud infusions.

Who says Cannith invented the warforged? In my game they build them, but stole the technology from the giants of Xen'drik - and even then, the intelligence was not created.

And yeah, the artificer infusion list is a bit sparse (especially at 5th level!), and I wouldn't have any qualms about adding things that one feels they ought to be able to do.
Stingrey
12-09-07, 07:15 PM Who says Cannith invented the warforged? In my game they build them, but stole the technology from the giants of Xen'drik - and even then, the intelligence was not created.

Nobody says Cannith invented the warforged, just that they make them. And they create them with intelligence via artifice, so artifice can create intelligence just as artifice can create intelligent items.

Unless...

...Artifice can't create intelligence, just bind it. So then, the docents are really bound Quori, the warforged have the soul of death people and any other intelligent ring, staff or whatever actually has a spirit bound inside, even if the item itself doesn't realize it. Sweet. I like that. It's the kind of things I'm looking for.

Keep posting.
Stingrey
12-09-07, 07:23 PM Artifice in my game is the ability to create connections between Eberron on the planes, drawing energy from them to create effects. Artifice cannot create intelligence (as constructs have no thoughts of their own) but can bind elementals from other planes to things with Khyber shards.

Well now, that's a very interesting idea.
However, what planes do you think that this items are linked to:
-Ring of the Ram
-Scroll of Invisibility
-Potion of Bull's Strenght
-Cloak of Carisma
-Universal Solvent
-Eternal Wand of Magecraft
-Spellshard
-Schema of personal weapon augmentation
-Inmovable Rod
-Dragonmark focus
-Keen Rapier

Or don't you count this items as the result of artifice? (that's an option)
naturax
12-10-07, 12:39 PM Well now, that's a very interesting idea.
However, what planes do you think that this items are linked to:
-Ring of the Ram
-Scroll of Invisibility
-Potion of Bull's Strenght
-Cloak of Carisma
-Universal Solvent
-Eternal Wand of Magecraft
-Spellshard
-Schema of personal weapon augmentation
-Inmovable Rod
-Dragonmark focus
-Keen Rapier

Or don't you count this items as the result of artifice? (that's an option)

I don't have any books at work with me so I'll do the ones I know off the top of my head:

Ring of the Ram: Syrania (air blast)
Scroll of Invisibility: Thelanis (trickery magic)
Potion of Bull's Strength: Lamannia
Cloak of Charisma: Thelanis
Universal Solvent: alchemy can be more "chemical" in nature, so this isn't necessarily a "magic" item so much as really expensive alchemy
Spellshard: natural property of Eberron shards (I'm assuming you mean Aureon's spellshard here)
Schema of personal weapon augmentation: this is a meta-infusion type artifact, so it isn't tied to the planes directly, but each weapon augmentation will use a different plane (flaming - Fernia, frost - Risia, etc.)
Immovable Rod: Syrania (stuck in the air) or Daanvi
Keen Rapier: Shavarath for sure

Nobody says Cannith invented the warforged, just that they make them. And they create them with intelligence via artifice, so artifice can create intelligence just as artifice can create intelligent items.

Unless...

...Artifice can't create intelligence, just bind it. So then, the docents are really bound Quori, the warforged have the soul of death people and any other intelligent ring, staff or whatever actually has a spirit bound inside, even if the item itself doesn't realize it. Sweet. I like that. It's the kind of things I'm looking for.

Keep posting.

I like the way you think! I have lots of Big Ideas about Eberron which I haven't fully written up on the boards yet because I'm running games on www.myth-weavers.com and I don't want it to leak to the players. However, my Deviations from Canon might be of interest to you:
http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=22526
androkguz
12-10-07, 11:14 PM I don't have any books at work with me so I'll do the ones I know off the top of my head:

Ring of the Ram: Syrania (air blast)
Scroll of Invisibility: Thelanis (trickery magic)
Potion of Bull's Strength: Lamannia
Cloak of Charisma: Thelanis
Universal Solvent: alchemy can be more "chemical" in nature, so this isn't necessarily a "magic" item so much as really expensive alchemy
Spellshard: natural property of Eberron shards (I'm assuming you mean Aureon's spellshard here)
Schema of personal weapon augmentation: this is a meta-infusion type artifact, so it isn't tied to the planes directly, but each weapon augmentation will use a different plane (flaming - Fernia, frost - Risia, etc.)
Immovable Rod: Syrania (stuck in the air) or Daanvi
Keen Rapier: Shavarath for sure
[/url]

Nah, that doesn't work. You see, the problem there is that there's still no limit if you can say that a Ring of the Ram is Syrarian.
I liked the idea but for it to work I would have to remove many items so that players can actually see a limit.

I would have to make (or keep) items that clearly relate to Syrania, Fernia, the Astral Plane, Khyber and the other planes. That's a problem with wands and scrolls of alarm.

But that's nice. I think that I'm gonna take a look at those posts.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
androkguz 12-07-07, 03:02 PM	A good story has a main theme. Magic is a very interesting addition to any story. It can make a story both, better or worse, depending on how it's to be taken. Magic can ruin a story if it can do anything, because that would mean there would be no challenges. I mean, if a wizard could do as much as Wanda in "Faerie Godfathers" then there would be no game (I still can't understand how they get in so many troubles). But of course, that's not DnD. In dnd magic is got limits... for each magic-wielder. But magic must also have it's general limits in order to explain many in-game stuff: A spell that rebuilds a building doesn't make any challenge for the PCs any less challenging, but it does mean that the glass tower in Sharn can't be down. Such spell can't possibly be in the hands of any mortal (perhaps one or two). But more than just a necesity to have a coherent game, magic should be strongly defined to have a good story. Defined in what sense? Defined in limits for one. There should be many things that everyone knows that can't simply be done by magic (reviving someone who died of old age, knowing what happened between Siberis and Khyber, returning in time). This is important because it gives PCs a confidence that they can at least understand things in the world, that they can be certain that a castle isn't really a polymorphed sheep, or that all humans are really doppelgangers that are treated as humans and that ignore true seeing. They should be able to trust their true seeing. Because if they don't take some things as imposible, how do we expect them to be surprised when they find out they are not? But magic should also be defined in another aspect: they way it works. Is it like a science or an art? Where does the power comes? How can it change? In Eberron there are a lot of types of magic, so I have decided to run a campaing where the main topic is one of those types: Artifice. What I want is PC to begin to understand to certain level artifice and it's secrets just as we get to understand alchemy all the way through Fullmetal Alchemist, learning some of it's laws, the ways it's aplied and finnally it's greatest secret that breaks the "law" of equivalence: the philosopher's stone. I want my plots to be solvable. I want my PC to be able to guess right what is going on, and that can't happen unless there's some logic in artifice. So I want artifice defined: What is artifice good for? What can't it do? How does it work? I want my PC to be able to expect eldrich machines to have certain vulnerability. The most tipical is just, being broken. Is there more ideas? I want my PC to get into the mystery of the warforged (but that can be done in another thread). For now, my thoughts: -I think that artificers are just too general. Any artificer can do anything. That is not good. I would prefer artificers to be different from each other in some way. -I think that magic items should have more arquetipes of functionallity. I mean, the only thing here that tells you where it's power comes from, how to destroy it (in a way different than the obvious), what does it needs to be made and some other fluff things that can actually manner in-game are the elemental vessels. I want more stuff like that. The rest sometimes tell you how they work, and that almost never means anything in-game. -Artifice can do everything!! that's not good. Artificers making any scroll is not a good thing. In fact, I would really like a substitute to scrolls (schemas are better, but they do everything too) -Artifice's strong spot should be constructs. -It shouldn't be able to create life, just intelligence. Important ideas that should be asociated with artifice: -Constructs -Infusions -Schemas -Artificers (duh) -Alchemy -Artifacts -House Cannith -Xen'drik And I don't know, post something and help me here.
naturax 12-08-07, 10:33 AM	Artifice in my game is the ability to create connections between Eberron on the planes, drawing energy from them to create effects. Artifice cannot create intelligence (as constructs have no thoughts of their own) but can bind elementals from other planes to things with Khyber shards.
Stingrey 12-08-07, 02:01 PM	Artifice in my game is the ability to create connections between Eberron on the planes, drawing energy from them to create effects. Artifice cannot create intelligence (as constructs have no thoughts of their own) but can bind elementals from other planes to things with Khyber shards. Hey, that's nice. I've never thought of that. Bu there's a problem, artifice can create intelligence. Just look at warforgeds. I for one, think that the artificer should be able to do Animate Object infusions and Transmute Rock to mud infusions.
naturax 12-08-07, 05:01 PM	Hey, that's nice. I've never thought of that. Bu there's a problem, artifice can create intelligence. Just look at warforgeds. I for one, think that the artificer should be able to do Animate Object infusions and Transmute Rock to mud infusions. Who says Cannith invented the warforged? In my game they build them, but stole the technology from the giants of Xen'drik - and even then, the intelligence was not created. And yeah, the artificer infusion list is a bit sparse (especially at 5th level!), and I wouldn't have any qualms about adding things that one feels they ought to be able to do.
Stingrey 12-09-07, 07:15 PM	Who says Cannith invented the warforged? In my game they build them, but stole the technology from the giants of Xen'drik - and even then, the intelligence was not created. Nobody says Cannith invented the warforged, just that they make them. And they create them with intelligence via artifice, so artifice can create intelligence just as artifice can create intelligent items. Unless... ...Artifice can't create intelligence, just bind it. So then, the docents are really bound Quori, the warforged have the soul of death people and any other intelligent ring, staff or whatever actually has a spirit bound inside, even if the item itself doesn't realize it. Sweet. I like that. It's the kind of things I'm looking for. Keep posting.
Stingrey 12-09-07, 07:23 PM	Artifice in my game is the ability to create connections between Eberron on the planes, drawing energy from them to create effects. Artifice cannot create intelligence (as constructs have no thoughts of their own) but can bind elementals from other planes to things with Khyber shards. Well now, that's a very interesting idea. However, what planes do you think that this items are linked to: -Ring of the Ram -Scroll of Invisibility -Potion of Bull's Strenght -Cloak of Carisma -Universal Solvent -Eternal Wand of Magecraft -Spellshard -Schema of personal weapon augmentation -Inmovable Rod -Dragonmark focus -Keen Rapier Or don't you count this items as the result of artifice? (that's an option)
naturax 12-10-07, 12:39 PM	Well now, that's a very interesting idea. However, what planes do you think that this items are linked to: -Ring of the Ram -Scroll of Invisibility -Potion of Bull's Strenght -Cloak of Carisma -Universal Solvent -Eternal Wand of Magecraft -Spellshard -Schema of personal weapon augmentation -Inmovable Rod -Dragonmark focus -Keen Rapier Or don't you count this items as the result of artifice? (that's an option) I don't have any books at work with me so I'll do the ones I know off the top of my head: Ring of the Ram: Syrania (air blast) Scroll of Invisibility: Thelanis (trickery magic) Potion of Bull's Strength: Lamannia Cloak of Charisma: Thelanis Universal Solvent: alchemy can be more "chemical" in nature, so this isn't necessarily a "magic" item so much as really expensive alchemy Spellshard: natural property of Eberron shards (I'm assuming you mean Aureon's spellshard here) Schema of personal weapon augmentation: this is a meta-infusion type artifact, so it isn't tied to the planes directly, but each weapon augmentation will use a different plane (flaming - Fernia, frost - Risia, etc.) Immovable Rod: Syrania (stuck in the air) or Daanvi Keen Rapier: Shavarath for sure Nobody says Cannith invented the warforged, just that they make them. And they create them with intelligence via artifice, so artifice can create intelligence just as artifice can create intelligent items. Unless... ...Artifice can't create intelligence, just bind it. So then, the docents are really bound Quori, the warforged have the soul of death people and any other intelligent ring, staff or whatever actually has a spirit bound inside, even if the item itself doesn't realize it. Sweet. I like that. It's the kind of things I'm looking for. Keep posting. I like the way you think! I have lots of Big Ideas about Eberron which I haven't fully written up on the boards yet because I'm running games on www.myth-weavers.com and I don't want it to leak to the players. However, my Deviations from Canon might be of interest to you: http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=22526
androkguz 12-10-07, 11:14 PM	I don't have any books at work with me so I'll do the ones I know off the top of my head: Ring of the Ram: Syrania (air blast) Scroll of Invisibility: Thelanis (trickery magic) Potion of Bull's Strength: Lamannia Cloak of Charisma: Thelanis Universal Solvent: alchemy can be more "chemical" in nature, so this isn't necessarily a "magic" item so much as really expensive alchemy Spellshard: natural property of Eberron shards (I'm assuming you mean Aureon's spellshard here) Schema of personal weapon augmentation: this is a meta-infusion type artifact, so it isn't tied to the planes directly, but each weapon augmentation will use a different plane (flaming - Fernia, frost - Risia, etc.) Immovable Rod: Syrania (stuck in the air) or Daanvi Keen Rapier: Shavarath for sure [/url] Nah, that doesn't work. You see, the problem there is that there's still no limit if you can say that a Ring of the Ram is Syrarian. I liked the idea but for it to work I would have to remove many items so that players can actually see a limit. I would have to make (or keep) items that clearly relate to Syrania, Fernia, the Astral Plane, Khyber and the other planes. That's a problem with wands and scrolls of alarm. But that's nice. I think that I'm gonna take a look at those posts.