Post/Author/DateTime	Post
xXSeizeTheNightXx 03-25-07, 11:19 AM	So I'm still a little confused exactly what the CL represents for magic items. I'll soon be starting a warforged artificer and would love to know how long before I can enchant myself alla bracers of archery. Thanks a bunch 8)
Edymnion 03-25-07, 12:20 PM	So I'm still a little confused exactly what the CL represents for magic items. I'll soon be starting a warforged artificer and would love to know how long before I can enchant myself alla bracers of archery. Thanks a bunch 8)It is the caster level of the spells used to make the item. The minimum caster level is the minimum level required to cast those spells.
Pinky's brain 03-25-07, 12:59 PM	It is the caster level of the spells used to make the item. The minimum caster level is the minimum level required to cast those spells. Not true, and a simple experiment can show that fact. The creator's CL sets the item CL. Spell prerequisites can be met by scrolls or by other casters. Those scrolls or other casters can be of higher CL than you. The minimum CL of an item is in the general case not dependent on the prerequisite spells. QED. Now in the specific case for scrolls, wands and some other items which reproduce spells ... these have a caster level prerequisite which forces the CL to be equal to what the spell will be reproduced at with a minimum CL of the minimum at which the spell can be cast (which with half caster level classes as ranger/paladin and the weird prestige classes such as ur-priest can be rather lower than you might expect). In the general case though the minimum CL is essentially 1 (even item creation feats can be provided by other casters).
Edymnion 03-25-07, 03:07 PM	The creator's CL sets the item CL.And you can always choose not to cast a spell or craft an item using your maximum caster level. The minimum CL of an item is in the general case not dependent on the prerequisite spells. QED.Not true. The minimum CL of the item is the minimum CL that anybody in the world can craft it at. It doesn't matter that you can make it higher, but you cannot make it any lower, hence the term "minimum".In the general case though the minimum CL is essentially 1 (even item creation feats can be provided by other casters).Not true. A lvl 1 character cannot craft anything that requires Fireball, as there is no lvl 1 character that can cast a Fireball. It doesn't matter how much gold you have, nobody can create a Ring of Three Wishes at lvl 1 either.
goblin_pride 03-25-07, 03:45 PM	The minimum CL of the item is the minimum CL that anybody in the world can craft it at. Although in the case of the Artificer that becomes a bit fuzzy. The minimum caster level in creating an item boils down to a Use Magic Device skill check DC that has to be met to emulate the class and level needed to create any given item. The artificer blurs and breaks the CL rules when making magic items. Without being able to do so, the world wouldn't be as heavily laden with minor magic items. While it might seem a bit overpowering, the artificer is a necessary evil. Certainly a PC artificer might be able to circumvent the CL issue, but that doesn't make them all powerful. The failing of the artificer is in the sheer number of feats that they have to have in order to make the magic items for which they're known. In the example of the ring of three wishes you've made an error, Edy. The reason a first level artificer can't make one is because they don't have the feat Craft Ring yet, not due to CL of the item. A Wish spell is nothing more than a DC 29 UMD check, not terribly easy for a first level artificer, but not impossible. (max ranks, max stat, skill focus and Magical Aptitude gives you a +13 UMD) A human PC devoted solely to it could make the ring in question from that standpoint if there was some way to gain access to the Craft Ring feat, which thankfully, there isn't. It's not a money issue or a CL issue, it's a matter of the feat being far above their level.
goblin_pride 03-25-07, 03:49 PM	In the general case though the minimum CL is essentially 1 (even item creation feats can be provided by other casters). No, because if another caster provides the feat to create the item, they have to have all the prerequisites for the crafting of the item. An artificer makes items on their own using their skills and feats, not another character's. Feats are not the same as spells in the crafting of magic items, any caster can be a part of the creation of an item as a spell battery but if the other PC is providing the feat to craft an item, they're making the item in question.
Pinky's brain 03-25-07, 04:23 PM	SRD : Prerequisites Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level. A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite. It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary. If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item. Typically, a list of prerequisites includes one feat and one or more spells (or some other requirement in addition to the feat). Goblin pride, forget about the artificer for a moment. As you can see item creation feats hold no special place among prerequisites. If two casters cooperate any of the participants can provide any of the prerequisites. DMG errata : For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. Endymnion, you can meet the prerequisites at CL1 by using a wand to meet a spell prerequisite and another caster to meet the item creation feat prerequisite. You don't need to be able to cast the spell, you only need to be able to meet the prerequisites. Ring of wishes is a bit of a corner case, as are all items capable of reproducing spells directly. They really should have a caster level prerequisite, but they don't. PS. I forgot about the ultimate example ... we've been over this so many times ... and I still have to keep digging these things up only for you to ignore their existence. Items with high level spell prerequisites yet low caster level. You can dig up more if you want, but I'll leave it at just the one. Goggles of Minute Seeing The lenses of this item are made of special crystal. When placed over the eyes of the wearer, the lenses enable her to see much better than normal at distances of 1 foot or less, granting her a +5 competence bonus on Search checks to find secret doors, traps, and similar concealed objects. Both lenses must be worn for the magic to be effective. Faint divination; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, true seeing; Price 1,250 gp. QED all over again.
Edymnion 03-25-07, 05:11 PM	Endymnion, you can meet the prerequisites at CL1 by using a wand to meet a spell prerequisite and another caster to meet the item creation feat prerequisite. You don't need to be able to cast the spell, you only need to be able to meet the prerequisites.This does not matter. There is still a minimum caster level for the item that is totally independant of how you meet the other prereqs. That level is the same as the minimum level needed to cast the highest level spell used in the item's creation. It does not matter if you provide that spell by casting it yourself, making a UMD check as an Artificer, or asking somebody else to come in and cast it for you. The crafter (aka the one with the feat that is spending the xp on the item) has to be at least the minimum caster level for the item before they can make it, period. Even the Artificer is no exception, they simply have a class feature that lets them count as being 2 levels higher than they really are for determining if they qualify for that prereq or not. A lvl 1 Artificer cannot, under any circumstances, create *ANYTHING* that requires Fireball, no matter if they have +10,000 to their UMD check and a freaking mountain of gold to spend in the process. They don't meet the minimum caster level for the item, so they can't make it, period. PS. I forgot about the ultimate example ... we've been over this so many times ... and I still have to keep digging these things up only for you to ignore their existence. Items with high level spell prerequisites yet low caster level. You can dig up more if you want, but I'll leave it at just the one.Ever here the phrase "the exception that proves the rule"?. That item can get away with it because it is a specific exception, and thats mainly because the value of the service the item presents is nowhere near the value of what the formulas say it should cost. If anything, the fact that it takes True Seeing should likely be the typo, not it's CL/price, especially since True Seeing has *NOTHING* to do with giving you bonuses to Search checks.
goblin_pride 03-25-07, 05:21 PM	If anything, the fact that it takes True Seeing should likely be the typo, not it's CL/price, especially since True Seeing has *NOTHING* to do with giving you bonuses to Search checks. That item should have a Search skill prerequisite, not True Seeing. Quite a few of the items in the DMG have strange or completely unrelated prerequisites. Anything that seems odd or completely unrelated can be rule zeroed or altered to a more logical prerequisite.
goblin_pride 03-25-07, 05:25 PM	A lvl 1 Artificer cannot, under any circumstances, create *ANYTHING* that requires Fireball, no matter if they have +10,000 to their UMD check and a freaking mountain of gold to spend in the process. They don't meet the minimum caster level for the item, so they can't make it, period. A first level artificer can barely make a scroll, much less anything else. I was simply pointing out that it's the feats they get that determine what they can make, the CL doesn't figure into the equation as heavily for them as it does for other casters.
Edymnion 03-25-07, 05:35 PM	A first level artificer can barely make a scroll, much less anything else. I was simply pointing out that it's the feats they get that determine what they can make, the CL doesn't figure into the equation as heavily for them as it does for other casters.Yeah, but you get my point. The artificer wouldn't get a class feature for something that they didn't need in the first place.
Pinky's brain 03-25-07, 05:38 PM	Endymnion, has it occurred to you that not only you do not base your opinion on the rules you actively avoid trying to quote them? I have given you the rule for the minimum caster level of an item, the minimum caster level of an item is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites. That is what the rules say. You can write a dozen more paragraphs saying the minimum caster level is that which is needed to cast the prerequisite spells but that doesn't make it any more true. You are pulling that out of thin air. Cloak of Displacement, Minor This item appears to be a normal cloak, but when worn by a character its magical properties distort and warp light waves. This displacement works similar to the displacement spell except that it only grants a 20% miss chance on attacks against the wearer. It functions continually. Faint illusion; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, displacement; Price 24,000 gp;Weight 1 lb. Eyes of the Eagle These items are made of special crystal and fit over the eyes of the wearer. These lenses grant a +5 competence bonus on Spot checks. Wearing only one of the pair causes a character to become dizzy and, in effect, stunned for 1 round. Thereafter, the wearer can use the single lens without being stunned so long as she covers her other eye. Of course, she can remove the single lens and see normally at any time, or wear both lenses to end or avoid the dizziness. Faint divination; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, clairaudience/clairvoyance; Price 2,500 gp. Horseshoes of Speed These iron shoes come in sets of four like ordinary horseshoes. When affixed to an animal’s hooves, they increase the animal’s base land speed by 30 feet; this counts as an enhancement bonus. As with other effects that increase speed, jumping distances increase proportionally. All four shoes must be worn by the same animal for the magic to be effective. Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, haste; Price 3,000 gp;Weight 12 lb. (for four). That's 4 "exceptions to prove the rule" just among wondrous items with CL 3rd.
Edymnion 03-25-07, 05:48 PM	I have given you the rule for the minimum caster level of an item, the minimum caster level of an item is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites. That is what the rules say.Yes, but that doesn't mean that every item in the game has a Caster Level of 1 just because you can use a scroll or a wand to provide the prereq.
Pinky's brain 03-25-07, 06:00 PM	I didn't say they did. In game you would actually want all your items to have as high a caster level as possible, since it makes them harder to suppress with dispelling.
Edymnion 03-25-07, 06:03 PM	I didn't say they did. In game you would actually want all your items to have as high a caster level as possible, since it makes them harder to suppress with dispelling.No, but you're saying that they *CAN* all be made with a caster level of 1. Unless I'm just totally missunderstanding you (which is also possible). Which means every munchkin out there is going to try to do so to cut down on the item's price to next to nothing. I mean, its bad enough that we still have people talking about how they want to make their item only usable by "Male elf clerics between 4'7" and 4'8" tall with brown hair, blue eyes, that are missing their left pinky finger, named Bob, that were born on July 3rd" because they can get technically get price breaks out the wazzu for it.
goblin_pride 03-25-07, 06:07 PM	Yeah, but you get my point. The artificer wouldn't get a class feature for something that they didn't need in the first place. The Item Creation ability of the Artificer just limits the spells an artificer can emulate to those within 2 levels of their actual level. It looks to me like the class ability was added to balance the abilities of the artificer with other PC classes capable of making items. Certain exceptions will have to be made in order to be able to reproduce the effects of non-combat items or you'll need to have workshops full of 7-12* level artificers to make the utilitarian items that are supposed to permeate the game setting. *Leomund's secret chest seems to be the only spell to make extra-dimensional containers anymore, so bags of holding and Handy Haversacks can only be made by a seventh level artificer. Considering the average level, this seems a bit off.
Edymnion 03-25-07, 06:12 PM	Certain exceptions will have to be made in order to be able to reproduce the effects of non-combat items or you'll need to have workshops full of 7-12 level artificers to make the utilitarian items that are supposed to permeate the game setting.Yes, that is still one of the great unanswered questions of Eberron, just who exactly is making all of these items when there is almost nobody high enough level to actually do so. The general idea that I've seen (and subscribe to myself) is that there must be some way for a group of magewrights/artificers to increase their effective caster level so that these things can be made. I mean, I'm not even going to try to figure out what level you need to be to make an Airship, but I can pretty much guarentee you that there aren't enough gnomes of that level to be able to crank 'em out like they do.
goblin_pride 03-25-07, 06:15 PM	I mean, its bad enough that we still have people talking about how they want to make their item only usable by "Male elf clerics between 4'7" and 4'8" tall with brown hair, blue eyes, that are missing their left pinky finger, named Bob, that were born on July 3rd" because they can get technically get price breaks out the wazzu for it. I don't know about the rest, but I've never allowed a character to get more than one 30% price break in making a magic item, no matter how many restrictions they make. Sure, as a player I've done it myself as a guarantee that my stuff is useless to anyone that tries to steal it, but that's a different story, it still only got the price break once.
goblin_pride 03-25-07, 06:22 PM	The general idea that I've seen (and subscribe to myself) is that there must be some way for a group of magewrights/artificers to increase their effective caster level so that these things can be made. Back in the second ed, they had cooperative magic that raised the caster level by 2 for every additional caster* above the minimum level to be able to cast the spell. I would imagine it's something of that nature. * the spell was divine and it was something like fifth level so it wasn't something that you could just roll out every priest in the city to cast, it took alot of powerful priests to be able to knock one off.
Edymnion 03-25-07, 06:25 PM	I don't know about the rest, but I've never allowed a character to get more than one 30% price break in making a magic item, no matter how many restrictions they make. Sure, as a player I've done it myself as a guarantee that my stuff is useless to anyone that tries to steal it, but that's a different story, it still only got the price break once.I just make it a reduction in the market price that doesn't affect crafting price. You wanna make an item that only you can use? Sure, you pay full price to craft it, since you'll get full benefit from it, but good luck trying to sell it should you ever decide to. I mean, every other system I've played in that allows this makes you pay EXTRA for having an item that the badguy can't take and use on you.
Pinky's brain 03-25-07, 07:09 PM	No, but you're saying that they *CAN* all be made with a caster level of 1. Unless I'm just totally missunderstanding you (which is also possible). Which means every munchkin out there is going to try to do so to cut down on the item's price to next to nothing. Almost all items which have effects dependent on caster level (ie. which actually cast spells) have caster level prerequisites ... the one's which don't should have. Items which don't reproduce spell effects aren't priced according to their caster level ... so whether it's high or low only matters to dispelling, not the price. All what happens with my interpretation of the rules is that just because some items have very high level spells as prerequisites doesn't put them completely out of reach of low level artificers (although they will need to get tricky to meet the UMD check).
goblin_pride 03-26-07, 02:56 PM	All what happens with my interpretation of the rules is that just because some items have very high level spells as prerequisites doesn't put them completely out of reach of low level artificers (although they will need to get tricky to meet the UMD check). I allow the same. By dropping the CL requirement, which seems to be the lowest level to cast the spells needed in the crafting anyway, it means that even a low-level artificer can try to craft magic items aren't terribly beyond their reach. Sure there are some risks to trying to make an item that's outside of probability to make, but I think that's part of the fun of playing an adventuring artificer.
ArcTan 03-26-07, 04:07 PM	This does not matter. There is still a minimum caster level for the item that is totally independant of how you meet the other prereqs. That level is the same as the minimum level needed to cast the highest level spell used in the item's creation. Source, please? This is directly contradicted by the DMG errata. Ever here the phrase "the exception that proves the rule"?. Yes, and it's frequently misquoted. It's nonsensical to say that a rule is proven if there's an exception to it. The original context was that "proves" meant "tests". A rule is shown to be true if it *has no exceptions*. If an exception comes up, it's a "test" of the rule -- you have to show whether or not the exception is *really* an exception in order to prove how true the rule is. Generally, if an "exception proves the rule", that's because there's something obvious about the exception that shows why it alone should be the exception, and nothing else. There's no way that's true for the items you're talking about, which really are just items like any other. That item can get away with it because it is a specific exception Where does it say anywhere in the item's description that "This item specifically breaks the rules for minimum caster level"? and thats mainly because the value of the service the item presents is nowhere near the value of what the formulas say it should cost. In other words, *any* item you make that fits into that general mold -- something that takes a high-level spell to craft but isn't that powerful at what it does -- should have a lowered caster level. Just as sovereign glue is intended to be an item that has low prereqs but should be almost impossible to dispel, hence its CL 20. If anything, the fact that it takes True Seeing should likely be the typo, not it's CL/price, especially since True Seeing has *NOTHING* to do with giving you bonuses to Search checks. A mistake is different from a typo. They clearly *intended* true seeing to be the spell. You may consider that a mistake, but that's a sign that your idea of how magic item creation works is different from what the game's idea is, and you shouldn't be selling your idea as the "correct" one on the forums.
ArcTan 03-26-07, 04:10 PM	Yeah, but you get my point. The artificer wouldn't get a class feature for something that they didn't need in the first place. Er, the Artificer's class ability lets them craft something with a spell prereq they don't have, without needing to find someone to donate it to them. That's pretty good. Unless you think any character should be able to conjure a high-level spellcaster willing to help them craft something out of thin air. There's a metagame thing where this is meant to explain how Artificers can be the item crafters of the world *themselves* without constantly needing high-level Wizards to come donate spells to them. It's also useful for an adventuring party that doesn't have a Wizard with tons of spells standing there overlapping with the Artificer. (Even if it does, this is what lets the Wizard concentrate on certain kinds of spellcasting without having to dilute his spell list with things that are only useful for crafting the items the Artificer wants to craft.)
ArcTan 03-26-07, 04:13 PM	No, but you're saying that they *CAN* all be made with a caster level of 1. Unless I'm just totally missunderstanding you (which is also possible). Which means every munchkin out there is going to try to do so to cut down on the item's price to next to nothing. Sure, which means they get hit with targeted dispels all the time and regret it. What's your point? I generally houserule that you have to craft an item at the CL given to you in the DMG unless you have a really good reason, but I don't think it'd break the game not to.
Edymnion 03-26-07, 06:30 PM	Sure, which means they get hit with targeted dispels all the time and regret it. What's your point?Honestly, when was the last time you ever saw an NPC actually cast Dispel Magic on the PCs in the middle of combat? Seriously. In a normal game, when was the last time it happened in any game you were in?
goblin_pride 03-26-07, 11:18 PM	Honestly, when was the last time you ever saw an NPC actually cast Dispel Magic on the PCs in the middle of combat? Seriously. In a normal game, when was the last time it happened in any game you were in? Regularly, fortunately that DM doesn't have time to run a game for the time being.
Rice_Rurouni 03-27-07, 12:05 AM	Honestly, when was the last time you ever saw an NPC actually cast Dispel Magic on the PCs in the middle of combat? Seriously. In a normal game, when was the last time it happened in any game you were in? Er, the last time I ran a session? Moreover, the Sharn skycoach they were riding on had a CL that wasn't high enough to beat his greater dispel check, sending them screaming and tumbling downwards. It was fun. So it's not like this doesn't come up.
Tevin Kevlak 03-27-07, 02:36 AM	Honestly, when was the last time you ever saw an NPC actually cast Dispel Magic on the PCs in the middle of combat? Seriously. In a normal game, when was the last time it happened in any game you were in? Quite often actually... it's a very useful level three spell that is highly effective against clerics, druids, wizards, and bards that buff themselves or the party before or during combat.
goblin_pride 03-27-07, 07:03 AM	Quite often actually... it's a very useful level three spell that is highly effective against clerics, druids, wizards, and bards that buff themselves or the party before or during combat. And all those nifty magic weapons and armors the manual labor likes.
goblin_pride 03-30-07, 02:29 PM	I was just rereading the item creation rules this morning and something dawned on me. Those are for items that actually cast spells. For a wand of fireballs, that rule would come into effect, but for a quiver of Ehlonna, it wouldn't. I don't know why I never noticed it before, the rule uses fireball as an example because the rule itself only deals with the spell-trigger items of a damaging nature such as fireball, magic missile, lightning bolt and the like. It's a stopgap so that a first level artificer can't make scrolls of fireball that outshine a 5th level wizard. Anything that has a variable effect, anything that casts a spell, anything that the caster level is important in determining the outcome falls under this rule, everything else is just a UMD check to bypass the CL of the item's creation. I feel bloody stupid for not catching on until just now, but sometimes you have to read and reread something a dozen times before the intent hits you square in the face.
Pinky's brain 03-30-07, 02:43 PM	Heh, well maybe I should have explained it better :) But yeah, my intention was not to make spells available faster or to allow cheesy discounts ... I only want to have cheap "utility" items with high level prerequisites available a little sooner (and I think the rules back me up).
goblin_pride 03-30-07, 02:54 PM	I only want to have cheap "utility" items with high level prerequisites available a little sooner (and I think the rules back me up). I'm agreeing with you, since most of the utility items don't actually cast spells and don't have variable effects, the item creation rule in the Artificer class skills wouldn't apply. Think of it like emulating a class ability, when you make the UMD check to emulate the caster level subtract 20 from the skill-modified roll and you have the caster level you've emulated, it's virtually identical to the emulation rolls for mimicing an ability and casting spells from rods, staves, wands and scrolls.