Attaining Godhood in Eberron? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attaining Godhood in Eberron? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Symar
07-13-07, 04:46 PM I'm curious as to whether someone, namely a BBEG, could attempt to attain godhood in the Eberron setting. It seems to me like it's not possible, due to the way religion works here, but DDO (which to my knowledge has to get things approved by WoTC) has this coming out: http://home.att.net/~cdbd3rd/risiasplash.jpg
It makes me wonder if it is possible, and if Hellcow has any input into DDO, or if Turbine (the company that made DDO) is just going off their own direction. And please, no comments on whether DDO is a good game or not, I like it, I play it, and that's that.
Kinger
07-13-07, 05:26 PM Whether it's possible or not is left to the DM, I expect, but it is implied that one can't gain Divine Rank simply by finding Aureon and killing him.

Having said that, there ARE creatures in Eberron that believe Godhood to be an achievable goal. The dragon Rhashaak (sp?) of Q'barra, for example, believes that with enough worshippers he could ascend to godhood and free himself from his station/prison. Whether it's true or not is up to you. At present there's nothing in existing Eberron canon that says "So-and-so became the new "God of Abstract Concept #35" by killing What-his-name, the previous God of Abstract Concept #35.
DarkPawn
07-13-07, 05:28 PM Aren't gods in Eberron basically merely undefined? People worship them but you can't find them. You really don't know if they exist and they aren't in the planes, like other game worlds.

So it would be realistic to become god-like, but actually becoming a god? I would initially say no, not like the gods listed. However, a DM can do whatever they want.
Rerecros
07-13-07, 05:44 PM By defalt, gods are supossed to be distant in Eberron.
They don't have any obvious form or action, they are purely abstract.
If there was a storm, it was caused by the devourer, If a business does well, it's because of kol korran.

While it might be possible to become a statless omnipresent abstract force, but if a being is looking for direct power, god hood is certainly not the way.

A DM could change this rule if they wanted, I can't imagine why.
Calling any superpowered high level outsider a "god" just gives less meaning to the word.
Hellcow
07-13-07, 11:17 PM But DDO (which to my knowledge has to get things approved by WoTC)....
I don't know if this is true or not. DDO is not exactly a canon match to the pen-and-paper game on a number of levels. I assume that WotC could simply put its foot down and threaten to yank the license, but I don't think there's a close relationship on story development...

... But I could be wrong.

and if Hellcow has any input into DDO.
No.

As for whether or not it's possible to become a god, some believe it is. The founder of the Library of Korranberg hoped to take Aureon's place. The problem is, if you DO become a true god... then what? No one's ever seen Aureon. If he exists, he exists on a higher level of reality than mortals can see. It's entirely possible that the founder of the Library of Korranberg DID replace him and no one knows it. In other words, it would make a terrible DDO module, because there's nothing to fight. The gods of Eberron, if they exist at all, do not manifest in physical forms.

HOWEVER, if you DO want a creature of godlike power that you can fight? You use a rakshasa rajah. It's already been suggested that some fiends hope to steal the power of the imprisoned rajahs for themselves. So, if *I* were writing this module, I'd say that the being in question has stolen the power of a rajah to fuel its "ascension". Thus, it IS becoming a being with godlike POWERS, who might be mistaken for a god... and when they only have a few words to work with, I could see DDO calling it a god instead of saying "Eberron's newest being with the power of a rakshasa rajah." If it IS tied to a rajah, I could even see Bill Slaviscek signing off on it - but I certainly don't see him sanctioning a "god" of the same class as Aureon walking around the world.

So: I would allow a fiend to steal the power of a rajah (though it's a huge deal and likely the work of tens of thousands of years of planning). That may be what's been planned here all along. But if they truly became an honest-to-goodness god, they would presumably vanish to whatever level of existence the rest of the gods are on... if they're out there at all.
Symar
07-13-07, 11:24 PM Oh, cool, thanks a lot Hellcow! I guess I'll have to wait and see how the story really plays out. The preliminary stuff has been out for a while, but you don't get any more info than this lich is researching something dangerous enough that the Silver Flame and the Emerald Claw are willing to put aside their differences to fight it. This conclusion won't be for over a month still, but I felt like asking while it was on my mind.
ArcTan
07-14-07, 01:56 AM Whether it's possible or not is left to the DM, I expect, but it is implied that one can't gain Divine Rank simply by finding Aureon and killing him.

Having said that, there ARE creatures in Eberron that believe Godhood to be an achievable goal. The dragon Rhashaak (sp?) of Q'barra, for example, believes that with enough worshippers he could ascend to godhood and free himself from his station/prison. Whether it's true or not is up to you. At present there's nothing in existing Eberron canon that says "So-and-so became the new "God of Abstract Concept #35" by killing What-his-name, the previous God of Abstract Concept #35.

Erandis d'Vol is hinted to believe that she may literally become a goddess by achieving her aims with the Blood of Vol (specifically, taking on the role of the Queen of the Dead, a figure in ancient Qalbarin religion).

The founder of the Library of Korranberg believed that collecting all earthly knowledge and lore would eventually enable his spirit to either supplant Aureon or merge with Aureon as the God of Knowledge, by presumably a similar process.

I would imagine there are similar beliefs all over, such as with the Lord of Blades and the Becoming God (there are probably Clerics of the Lord of Blades who acknowledge that the LoB as he is is merely another being, not a god, but believe that he can *become* one -- and perhaps bring the whole Warforged race with him).
Shady314
07-17-07, 04:38 AM Personally I allow certain creatures, perhaps one day even PCs, to theoretically attain godLIKE power. At least on a demi-god level. For example in the back of my mind I have a Prismatic Dragon in Argonessen ruthlessly pursuing class levels in the Dragon Ascendant Prestige Class who may or may not have caused the Mourning. And a bad-ass enough Rakshasa could supplant a Rajah (but would have to free one first! There's always a catch) etc. But I don't think I'd ever let anything literally go up to an Aureon level. At least never in a concrete, yeah he definitely succeeded and became the new Mockery kind of way.
Symar
07-17-07, 04:46 PM I recieved a response from a DDO dev on this topic, as I posted regarding it over there too. The lich is going after god-like powers, mainly in an attempt to beat Vol to the punch. Of course, he'll use the powers once he gets them. Once it comes out, and I run the old quests again and the new ones, I'll get the whole picture.
Edymnion
07-18-07, 08:00 PM Can you attempt to gain godhood? Sure, nothing stopping you from trying.
Can you actually SUCCEED? Thats a totally differant question. And like Keith said, even if you do, odds are you would be prevented from acting on the mortal plane or any plane the mortals can access, so no one would ever know you did it.
Hellcow
07-18-07, 09:07 PM The lich is going after god-like powers...
And you can certainly have "god-like powers" in Eberron. You just can't actually be a true god in the traditional D&D sense of the word.
Symar
07-18-07, 09:23 PM And you can certainly have "god-like powers" in Eberron. You just can't actually be a true god in the traditional D&D sense of the word.

That's how it is seeming to be, it's just with the limited space on that screen and with the wording they chose, it sounds like its the other way.
Ravenstein
07-22-07, 12:25 AM I've always found levels of divinity to con-fuzzle a game. I once played in a godhood game. A fight against Hextor ran for three hours straight; and their was no clear winner even after all that. Thus I tend to leave levels of divinity out of my games, especially ones run in Eberron. Seeing as how Eberron is all I run these days, god-levels are a thing of the past (plus its a 3.0 book, icky).

Seeing as how Eberron tends to be low-levels, a creature with enough CR in the 20's or so could appear god-like, even to some high level PC's. If it were me, I would simply see some big-bads earn god-like powers, not levels of divinity per se. Frankly, I appreciate that Eberron pretty much keeps the gods from mucking about on the material plane. One of the many reasons why I'm not a big fan of Faerun. Games are much simplier when religion is simply an obscure "well it could be..." sorta thing with the gods having no real hand in affairs. Plus it makes your clerics more authoritative if a their god doesn't swoop down and get involved. The power of the religion rests truly in the hands of its clerics, not the gods.
Dvaczilla3
07-24-07, 02:23 PM From reading the books myself, I came off with the impression that one could become a god in eberron, but the stipulation is that enough people must believe that they are indeed a god. This whole thing also depends on how you want to define the term "god". First, there is god in the in-game sense, just like everyone has been saying, they may or may not exists, they are aloof, and there is no hard evidence of their influence over eberron. Then there is the idea of god in a rules-y sense, getting at the mechanics presented in the Dieties and Demigods book. I always figured that creatures with divine ranks could be encountered or created on eberron. For instance, if your story includes that one or more of the Rajas have gotten loose, then there is your opportunity to have your players fight something that has divine ranks. However, it seems like it wouldn't make too much sense in eberron if people were gaining the rank of greater diety and hanging around alot. The books seem to hint that the concept of the Sovereign Host ect have been around for a looooooong time, so to gain enough ranks to ascend to that level of power, a particular creature would have to be pretty well established for a similar length of time. But, anyway, whatever.
ArcTan
07-24-07, 04:55 PM From reading the books myself, I came off with the impression that one could become a god in eberron, but the stipulation is that enough people must believe that they are indeed a god.

Unlike other campaign settings, there is no proof for this belief, and it may in fact be false. (The founder of the Library of Korranberg thought that it would be the Library's status as the home of all knowledge that would propel him to godhood, not other people's beliefs per se.)

This whole thing also depends on how you want to define the term "god". First, there is god in the in-game sense, just like everyone has been saying, they may or may not exists, they are aloof, and there is no hard evidence of their influence over eberron.

If you mean the way the people in the world use the word "god", not necessarily true. People will do things like call Erandis d'Vol or the Lord of Blades or a random Daelkyr a "god" despite these beings' lack of divine rank and physical reality. The Silver Flame and Undying Court both physically exist and yet are gods (though in both cases their physical forms are only supposed to be the representative of a higher reality).

Then there is the idea of god in a rules-y sense, getting at the mechanics presented in the Dieties and Demigods book. I always figured that creatures with divine ranks could be encountered or created on eberron.

No. That's the thing. Actual creatures whose stat block contain actual divine rank don't exist in Eberron.

For instance, if your story includes that one or more of the Rajas have gotten loose, then there is your opportunity to have your players fight something that has divine ranks.

Rajahs do not have DvR. They have *many of the abilities* that go with DvR. But they don't literally have DvR, because they don't actually have things like a portfolio or control over "worshippers".

However, it seems like it wouldn't make too much sense in eberron if people were gaining the rank of greater diety and hanging around alot. The books seem to hint that the concept of the Sovereign Host ect have been around for a looooooong time, so to gain enough ranks to ascend to that level of power, a particular creature would have to be pretty well established for a similar length of time. But, anyway, whatever.

That would be how it would work in Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms. In Eberron, the gods are supposed to be eternal, or at least to have existed since the beginning of the world.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Symar 07-13-07, 04:46 PM	I'm curious as to whether someone, namely a BBEG, could attempt to attain godhood in the Eberron setting. It seems to me like it's not possible, due to the way religion works here, but DDO (which to my knowledge has to get things approved by WoTC) has this coming out: http://home.att.net/~cdbd3rd/risiasplash.jpg It makes me wonder if it is possible, and if Hellcow has any input into DDO, or if Turbine (the company that made DDO) is just going off their own direction. And please, no comments on whether DDO is a good game or not, I like it, I play it, and that's that.
Kinger 07-13-07, 05:26 PM	Whether it's possible or not is left to the DM, I expect, but it is implied that one can't gain Divine Rank simply by finding Aureon and killing him. Having said that, there ARE creatures in Eberron that believe Godhood to be an achievable goal. The dragon Rhashaak (sp?) of Q'barra, for example, believes that with enough worshippers he could ascend to godhood and free himself from his station/prison. Whether it's true or not is up to you. At present there's nothing in existing Eberron canon that says "So-and-so became the new "God of Abstract Concept #35" by killing What-his-name, the previous God of Abstract Concept #35.
DarkPawn 07-13-07, 05:28 PM	Aren't gods in Eberron basically merely undefined? People worship them but you can't find them. You really don't know if they exist and they aren't in the planes, like other game worlds. So it would be realistic to become god-like, but actually becoming a god? I would initially say no, not like the gods listed. However, a DM can do whatever they want.
Rerecros 07-13-07, 05:44 PM	By defalt, gods are supossed to be distant in Eberron. They don't have any obvious form or action, they are purely abstract. If there was a storm, it was caused by the devourer, If a business does well, it's because of kol korran. While it might be possible to become a statless omnipresent abstract force, but if a being is looking for direct power, god hood is certainly not the way. A DM could change this rule if they wanted, I can't imagine why. Calling any superpowered high level outsider a "god" just gives less meaning to the word.
Hellcow 07-13-07, 11:17 PM	But DDO (which to my knowledge has to get things approved by WoTC).... I don't know if this is true or not. DDO is not exactly a canon match to the pen-and-paper game on a number of levels. I assume that WotC could simply put its foot down and threaten to yank the license, but I don't think there's a close relationship on story development... ... But I could be wrong. and if Hellcow has any input into DDO. No. As for whether or not it's possible to become a god, some believe it is. The founder of the Library of Korranberg hoped to take Aureon's place. The problem is, if you DO become a true god... then what? No one's ever seen Aureon. If he exists, he exists on a higher level of reality than mortals can see. It's entirely possible that the founder of the Library of Korranberg DID replace him and no one knows it. In other words, it would make a terrible DDO module, because there's nothing to fight. The gods of Eberron, if they exist at all, do not manifest in physical forms. HOWEVER, if you DO want a creature of godlike power that you can fight? You use a rakshasa rajah. It's already been suggested that some fiends hope to steal the power of the imprisoned rajahs for themselves. So, if I were writing this module, I'd say that the being in question has stolen the power of a rajah to fuel its "ascension". Thus, it IS becoming a being with godlike POWERS, who might be mistaken for a god... and when they only have a few words to work with, I could see DDO calling it a god instead of saying "Eberron's newest being with the power of a rakshasa rajah." If it IS tied to a rajah, I could even see Bill Slaviscek signing off on it - but I certainly don't see him sanctioning a "god" of the same class as Aureon walking around the world. So: I would allow a fiend to steal the power of a rajah (though it's a huge deal and likely the work of tens of thousands of years of planning). That may be what's been planned here all along. But if they truly became an honest-to-goodness god, they would presumably vanish to whatever level of existence the rest of the gods are on... if they're out there at all.
Symar 07-13-07, 11:24 PM	Oh, cool, thanks a lot Hellcow! I guess I'll have to wait and see how the story really plays out. The preliminary stuff has been out for a while, but you don't get any more info than this lich is researching something dangerous enough that the Silver Flame and the Emerald Claw are willing to put aside their differences to fight it. This conclusion won't be for over a month still, but I felt like asking while it was on my mind.
ArcTan 07-14-07, 01:56 AM	Whether it's possible or not is left to the DM, I expect, but it is implied that one can't gain Divine Rank simply by finding Aureon and killing him. Having said that, there ARE creatures in Eberron that believe Godhood to be an achievable goal. The dragon Rhashaak (sp?) of Q'barra, for example, believes that with enough worshippers he could ascend to godhood and free himself from his station/prison. Whether it's true or not is up to you. At present there's nothing in existing Eberron canon that says "So-and-so became the new "God of Abstract Concept #35" by killing What-his-name, the previous God of Abstract Concept #35. Erandis d'Vol is hinted to believe that she may literally become a goddess by achieving her aims with the Blood of Vol (specifically, taking on the role of the Queen of the Dead, a figure in ancient Qalbarin religion). The founder of the Library of Korranberg believed that collecting all earthly knowledge and lore would eventually enable his spirit to either supplant Aureon or merge with Aureon as the God of Knowledge, by presumably a similar process. I would imagine there are similar beliefs all over, such as with the Lord of Blades and the Becoming God (there are probably Clerics of the Lord of Blades who acknowledge that the LoB as he is is merely another being, not a god, but believe that he can become one -- and perhaps bring the whole Warforged race with him).
Shady314 07-17-07, 04:38 AM	Personally I allow certain creatures, perhaps one day even PCs, to theoretically attain godLIKE power. At least on a demi-god level. For example in the back of my mind I have a Prismatic Dragon in Argonessen ruthlessly pursuing class levels in the Dragon Ascendant Prestige Class who may or may not have caused the Mourning. And a bad-ass enough Rakshasa could supplant a Rajah (but would have to free one first! There's always a catch) etc. But I don't think I'd ever let anything literally go up to an Aureon level. At least never in a concrete, yeah he definitely succeeded and became the new Mockery kind of way.
Symar 07-17-07, 04:46 PM	I recieved a response from a DDO dev on this topic, as I posted regarding it over there too. The lich is going after god-like powers, mainly in an attempt to beat Vol to the punch. Of course, he'll use the powers once he gets them. Once it comes out, and I run the old quests again and the new ones, I'll get the whole picture.
Edymnion 07-18-07, 08:00 PM	Can you attempt to gain godhood? Sure, nothing stopping you from trying. Can you actually SUCCEED? Thats a totally differant question. And like Keith said, even if you do, odds are you would be prevented from acting on the mortal plane or any plane the mortals can access, so no one would ever know you did it.
Hellcow 07-18-07, 09:07 PM	The lich is going after god-like powers... And you can certainly have "god-like powers" in Eberron. You just can't actually be a true god in the traditional D&D sense of the word.
Symar 07-18-07, 09:23 PM	And you can certainly have "god-like powers" in Eberron. You just can't actually be a true god in the traditional D&D sense of the word. That's how it is seeming to be, it's just with the limited space on that screen and with the wording they chose, it sounds like its the other way.
Ravenstein 07-22-07, 12:25 AM	I've always found levels of divinity to con-fuzzle a game. I once played in a godhood game. A fight against Hextor ran for three hours straight; and their was no clear winner even after all that. Thus I tend to leave levels of divinity out of my games, especially ones run in Eberron. Seeing as how Eberron is all I run these days, god-levels are a thing of the past (plus its a 3.0 book, icky). Seeing as how Eberron tends to be low-levels, a creature with enough CR in the 20's or so could appear god-like, even to some high level PC's. If it were me, I would simply see some big-bads earn god-like powers, not levels of divinity per se. Frankly, I appreciate that Eberron pretty much keeps the gods from mucking about on the material plane. One of the many reasons why I'm not a big fan of Faerun. Games are much simplier when religion is simply an obscure "well it could be..." sorta thing with the gods having no real hand in affairs. Plus it makes your clerics more authoritative if a their god doesn't swoop down and get involved. The power of the religion rests truly in the hands of its clerics, not the gods.
Dvaczilla3 07-24-07, 02:23 PM	From reading the books myself, I came off with the impression that one could become a god in eberron, but the stipulation is that enough people must believe that they are indeed a god. This whole thing also depends on how you want to define the term "god". First, there is god in the in-game sense, just like everyone has been saying, they may or may not exists, they are aloof, and there is no hard evidence of their influence over eberron. Then there is the idea of god in a rules-y sense, getting at the mechanics presented in the Dieties and Demigods book. I always figured that creatures with divine ranks could be encountered or created on eberron. For instance, if your story includes that one or more of the Rajas have gotten loose, then there is your opportunity to have your players fight something that has divine ranks. However, it seems like it wouldn't make too much sense in eberron if people were gaining the rank of greater diety and hanging around alot. The books seem to hint that the concept of the Sovereign Host ect have been around for a looooooong time, so to gain enough ranks to ascend to that level of power, a particular creature would have to be pretty well established for a similar length of time. But, anyway, whatever.
ArcTan 07-24-07, 04:55 PM	From reading the books myself, I came off with the impression that one could become a god in eberron, but the stipulation is that enough people must believe that they are indeed a god. Unlike other campaign settings, there is no proof for this belief, and it may in fact be false. (The founder of the Library of Korranberg thought that it would be the Library's status as the home of all knowledge that would propel him to godhood, not other people's beliefs per se.) This whole thing also depends on how you want to define the term "god". First, there is god in the in-game sense, just like everyone has been saying, they may or may not exists, they are aloof, and there is no hard evidence of their influence over eberron. If you mean the way the people in the world use the word "god", not necessarily true. People will do things like call Erandis d'Vol or the Lord of Blades or a random Daelkyr a "god" despite these beings' lack of divine rank and physical reality. The Silver Flame and Undying Court both physically exist and yet are gods (though in both cases their physical forms are only supposed to be the representative of a higher reality). Then there is the idea of god in a rules-y sense, getting at the mechanics presented in the Dieties and Demigods book. I always figured that creatures with divine ranks could be encountered or created on eberron. No. That's the thing. Actual creatures whose stat block contain actual divine rank don't exist in Eberron. For instance, if your story includes that one or more of the Rajas have gotten loose, then there is your opportunity to have your players fight something that has divine ranks. Rajahs do not have DvR. They have many of the abilities that go with DvR. But they don't literally have DvR, because they don't actually have things like a portfolio or control over "worshippers". However, it seems like it wouldn't make too much sense in eberron if people were gaining the rank of greater diety and hanging around alot. The books seem to hint that the concept of the Sovereign Host ect have been around for a looooooong time, so to gain enough ranks to ascend to that level of power, a particular creature would have to be pretty well established for a similar length of time. But, anyway, whatever. That would be how it would work in Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms. In Eberron, the gods are supposed to be eternal, or at least to have existed since the beginning of the world.