Post/Author/DateTime	Post
heirodule 01-29-08, 03:37 PM	So Giants say that Orelon, their god, taught them magic Dragons say that one of them, Orelonastrix, taught magic to the giants. Sovereign Hosters say that Aureon, the god who sometimes appears as a blue dragon, taught magic to mortals, and Orelon is the giant name for Aureon. If you played the "tape" of a image recorder of Orelonastrix teaching the giants magic, or you similarly had time travel magic, what would a Sovereign Hoster decide? 1. His whole life is a lie, and magic was taught by a now-dead dragon (a dragon that the dragons claim IS now aureon) 2. That Aureon was the power "behind" Orelonastrix the whole time. 3. Mythic tales are mythic, and not to be taken literally? 4. Other? Or is it a key element of eberron theology that there are no ways to accurately know the distant past objectively.
vegetalss4 01-29-08, 05:01 PM	how about.*wow* i actuly sees an avatar of Aureon, i am not worthy
Darth Syntax 01-29-08, 05:14 PM	I think you are making a potentially false assumption, namely that the dragons are, at some level, correct. It is entirely possible that the dragon story is every bit as mythic and metaphorical as the others.
Amaril 01-29-08, 08:54 PM	Who's to say that Orelonastrix wasn't named after Aureon? Also, read about the religion of Thir in Dragons of Eberron.
heirodule 01-29-08, 09:56 PM	I think you are making a potentially false assumption, namely that the dragons are, at some level, correct. It is entirely possible that the dragon story is every bit as mythic and metaphorical as the others. I thought one of the adventure locales presented Orelonastrix teachings of magic as canon history, but I was wrong. The "objective history" seems to be that "decendents of Ourelonastrix" taught magic, which leaves room for them to say "hey, Ourelon, (dad), is the ascended sovereign of magic and you need to have faith in him. Still an interesting twist. So a giant watching a "tape" might still be shocked that theres no physical divine manifestation per se. That's not how the gods work anyway.
Edymnion 01-29-08, 09:57 PM	If you played the "tape" of a image recorder of Orelonastrix teaching the giants magic, or you similarly had time travel magic, what would a Sovereign Hoster decide?I think the question you really meant to ask here is how they would react if they found out, incontrovertibly, that it was a normal dragon that did this. Just because they see a tape of a dragon teaching magic doesn't necessarily mean they would see anything other than a god in draconic form doing exactly what the mythology said they did.
Gurv 01-30-08, 06:22 AM	I've found another layer. It is easy enough to see the relationship between the Thir religion, the Sovereign Host/Dark Six, and whatever the giants called their faith. Obviously, they're all the same thing, and the only question is which came first, and how legitimate is the myth. But how does the Blood of Vol tie in? There is a tendency to overlook it as a separate entity, with no ties to the established religions aside from a rejection of the gods. But the Blood of Vol is old. Almost as old as whatever myths the giants learned from the dragons. The dragon have always, it seems, been sensitive to the use of blood magic. No doubt this stems from the belief that they themselves were born from the blood of Syberis and Eberron, the couatl from the blood of Siberys alone, and their mortal enemies from the blood of Khyber. So the dragons take blood very, very seriously. "As powerful as they are, the dragons are mired in tradition, and certain paths they refuse to tread. But the giants of long-dead empires, such as the Cul'sir Empire and the Group of Eleven had no such qualms- their explorations of blood magic and other dark arts diverged wildly from the codified teachings of Orelonastrix". Right there, you have the users of blood magic rejecting Orelonastrix, rejecting Aureon. All I'm saying is that the BoV isn't separate from this bit of theology: if the dragons can ascend to become Sovereigns, then is these beings that the BoV rejects and blames for the curse of mortality. The dragons reject blood magic, and the Blood of Vol rejects them as gods.
Captain_Kobold 01-30-08, 01:34 PM	Blood magic does not necceasarily mean the same thing as the worship of the Blood of Vol religion. I was under the impression that it only became a full faith well after the creation (and destruction) of Vol herself. It is possible that the reason that the Dragons viewd her as an abomination was that the Mark of Death that she developed had powers linked to Blood Magic. Of course it is possible that there was a proto- Blood of Vol faith existing beforehand, and that Vol simply latched on to it and kept it alive in her name. However I think it is more likely that when the Giants turned to blood magic, they did not see it as an act of worship, but simply a path to power; a variation upon arcane magic. That they had not been told or taught about this form of magic when Orelonastrix taught them the other paths would probably only heighten their curiosity. Less of a rejection of its teachings, and more simply taking a route not covered in the syllabus.
heirodule 01-30-08, 11:31 PM	The qabalrin seem to qualify as a proto-blood of vol group.
OctaviusIII 01-30-08, 11:36 PM	The Blood of Vol strikes me as the anti-Thir. If someone believes in the gods but also believes that the gods are to blame for mortality and suffering, then she may seek to start a faith that both believes in the gods and thoroughly rejects them and their precepts.
Hellcow 01-31-08, 12:35 AM	Just because they see a tape of a dragon teaching magic doesn't necessarily mean they would see anything other than a god in draconic form doing exactly what the mythology said they did. This is essentially the issue I'd see. Aureon is already occasionally depicted in the form of a blue dragon. There's a SH sect that takes this further, known either as draconists or the Church of the Wyrm Ascendant, mentioned in Secrets of Xen'drik, The Shattered Land, and City of Stormreach, and that's certainly what they'd say - "What makes you this that this 'mere dragon' is anything other than Lord Aureon himself, the child of Siberys whose very blood is magic?" If you somehow offered conclusive proof that a plain ol' mundane dragon dragon did these things, they'd like react in the same many any devotely religious person in our world would to 'scientific proof' that some doctrine of faith isn't what it seems - claim that what seems the work of the mundane would never have occured without the guidance of the divine; that there is a greater truth at work you cannot understand without trusting to faith; or something similar. And as Darth Syntax points out, even if it can be conclusively proven that Ourelonastrix existed (and his deeds are certainly documented in sources the dragons consider to be pure history), it's the same as saints in our world; yes, they existed; they did certain things; and those with faith believe that they ascended after death and continue to influence the world. Maybe they do - or maybe they were simply remarkable people, now passed on. So yes, the priests of Thir and the Church of the Wyrm Ascendant will argue that the power the SH calls Aureon is in fact Ourelonastrix (though by Thir, he was simply the first to ascend to this role, and may since have moved on); but as with all the divine mysteries, it's going to be difficult to prove it right or wrong.
Gurv 01-31-08, 01:06 AM	Of course it is possible that there was a proto- Blood of Vol faith existing beforehand, and that Vol simply latched on to it and kept it alive in her name. However I think it is more likely that when the Giants turned to blood magic, they did not see it as an act of worship, but simply a path to power; a variation upon arcane magic. That they had not been told or taught about this form of magic when Orelonastrix taught them the other paths would probably only heighten their curiosity. Less of a rejection of its teachings, and more simply taking a route not covered in the syllabus. Oh, I think that is absolutely what happened. All of this evolved, in its own way. None of it seems to have sprung into existence in the current form. I think that blood magic, as well as most forms of necromancy, were rejected by the dragons. Too powerful, especially for mortals, to corrupt the fundamental creation power of the universe. The giants did not learn such from Orelonastrix or his followers: rather, they taught that it was to be avoided. It is clear that the legend of Orelonastrix led to the myth that became Ouralon Lawbringer and Aureon. When or how or even if he and the others really ascended to godhood is hard to know. But the dragons and the giants believed that these dragons had found true immortality and become gods. No doubt that some of the giants felt that they were being left out of the whole immortality-god thing. They spitefully rejected the teachings of Orelonastrix and the new Host of gods and did their own thing. Studied the forbidden necromancy and blood magic, for one thing. Not as a faith, per se. But when you're doing something because it opposes a faith, it becomes a faith itself. Eventually, arcane ritual blurs the line a bit, becoming pure ritual. Now the elves start learning magic, mostly by stealing it piecemeal. They learn it as the giants now treat it: as a religious taboo. But what is taboo for the oppressors becomes scripture for the slaves. Eventually, the giants hit hard times, and are weakened by the quori invasion. The dragons are shocked by the carelessness with which the giants blow Dal Quor off course, using bad voodoo on a grand scale. When the elves turn around and start rebelling, the giants screw up and try to do it again. The dragons get ticked off, and now Xen'drik is a ruin. Most of the giants and elves end up dead. But there are survivors. Aeren and her followers escape to Aerenal, a place rife with positive and negative energy (coincidence?). They know necromancy, learned from the giants as quasi-arcane, quasi-religious teachings. The dragons are not pleased that the knowledge escaped Xen'drik, and have warred with the elves ever since. The elves continue to reject the teachings of Thir and the Sovereigns, seeking immortality through other means, and the Undying Court is born. The elven line of Vol, major practitioners of dark necromancy of the sort most repugnant to the dragons, seeks another path. Where they were headed with the hybrid dragon-elf plan surely had more to do with this search than it did with bringing lasting piece (it was a bad peace plan, and they would have known it!). They got caught, and the line of Vol was exterminated. All except little Erandis. She was the last bearer of the ancient magic that the deity Aureon denied to the giants, who did it anyway and leaked the information to their slaves. Now she teaches something similar to what the most ancient giants might have known: the Sovereigns don't want us to achieve immortality like they did. They want us to remain mortal, to worship them and do as they tell us. But the rites of the Blood of Vol allow you to do what they don't want us to do...find the immortality inside of yourself. It wasn't until I wrote this that I thought of the connection that the Undying Court has in also rejecting the teachings of the Sovereigns and seeking immortality elsewhere. In a way, the Undying Court and the Blood of Vol came into being as alternatives to what the Thir/Sovereign deities allowed. I also suspect that when they say that Aureon accidentally created the Shadow when he invented magic, they are actually referring to how Orelonastrix spawned the study of dark magic when he brought power to the giants. All of these faiths are tied together, and have a common beginning. The strongest argument against any one faith is the existence of other seemingly valid religions. Finding that they all have the same roots might instead prove them all equally valid, as they no longer oppose one another.
Gurv 01-31-08, 01:17 AM	So yes, the priests of Thir and the Church of the Wyrm Ascendant will argue that the power the SH calls Aureon is in fact Ourelonastrix (though by Thir, he was simply the first to ascend to this role, and may since have moved on); but as with all the divine mysteries, it's going to be difficult to prove it right or wrong. I actually have a player, a favored soul of the SH, who is in Xen'drik investigating all of this, so I find the conversation very intriguing. Keith: we know what the BoV has to say about the SH. They reject them as overpowered beings unwilling to share (which could be a valid view of the ascended dragons). But what does the Undying Court have to say about it all? They think other religions have it wrong. But what do they think the forces behind the other religions are?
Hellcow 01-31-08, 01:18 AM	I also suspect that when they say that Aureon accidentally created the Shadow when he invented magic, they are actually referring to how Orelonastrix spawned the study of dark magic when he brought power to the giants. An extremely astute observation.
Hellcow 01-31-08, 01:30 AM	Keith: we know what the BoV has to say about the SH. They reject them as overpowered beings unwilling to share (which could be a valid view of the ascended dragons). But what does the Undying Court have to say about it all? "Words alone cannot help you understand the answer to this question. It is a mystery that can only be solved through the journey of the soul. Walk through the path of your life, then walk the path than lies beyond - and then, when you finally take your place among the Court, you will truly understand the nature of the divine." With that said... FoE discusses this on page 139, touching on the fact that while the individual members of the court are not "gods", the court itself is a divine force - and that some say that the Progenitors were similar collective souls of people gone before. As such, the short answer is that they do believe in the existence of divine forces - but they believe that these forces are, in all likelihood, not what you believe them to be. By this theory, Aureon isn't a single being - but rather a collective formed from many wise souls, dragons (and perhaps others) that have joined together in the time between now and the Age of Giants... essentially, that the children of Ourelonastrix were/are collectively the deity.
Captain_Kobold 01-31-08, 02:41 AM	A rather interesting thought occurred as I was thinking about why specifically the Dragons viewed Vol as an abomination. Have the Mark of Death's powers ever been codified? What if the Mark of Death had the potential not to cause death, but to transcend it?
Gurv 01-31-08, 08:26 AM	A rather interesting thought occurred as I was thinking about why specifically the Dragons viewed Vol as an abomination. Have the Mark of Death's powers ever been codified? What if the Mark of Death had the potential not to cause death, but to transcend it? This has been discussed in depth since the campaign setting came out. The powers of the Mark of Death have never been codified in canon (there are about a million threads devoted to doing so however). The dragons were upset because Erandis was a half-dragon. The fact that she had a dragonmark (and the elves were the first to have them; the dragons were still newly upset about this development of the Prophecy) most likely made this a thousandfold worse. The dragons and elves were, and still are, at war. The line of Vol claimed to have done it in an attempt to bring the two races together and prove that they were not so different after all. It backfired, and Erandis was seen as a abomination. The dragons saw nothing good in an dragonmarked elf who carried the power of their blood within her. The elves also saw betrayal, and most of them didn't like what the line of Vol taught anyway (they were negative energy necromancers by tradition). So they banded together and destroyed the line of Vol. <theory> My theory is that there was more to it. The bearers of the Mark of Death were masters of necromancy and likely knew more about life and death than anyone. I suspect they still sought the immortallity the Sovereigns denied them. Mixing their blood with the blood of dragons, combined with their knowledge and dragonmark powers, might have been the answer they sought. That might be a bigger part of why the dragons wanted them gone.</theory>
Hellcow 01-31-08, 11:32 AM	My theory is that there was more to it. A sound theory. And yes, no OFFICIAL version of the Mark of Death has been released, and as thousands of years have passed since a living heir held it (and history has been written by those who destroyed it), the nature of the mark is a mystery. What I have mentioned to some of the people who make their own versions is to bear in mind that the powers of the "pure" marks are rarely directly aggressive; a few of the marks have one or two directed powers (such as the Lyrandar storm of vengeance), but overall, aggressive powers are the hallmark of aberrant marks. So the Mark of Death may provide influence over death in the same way that the Mark of Storm allows one to influence the weather; but it's not necessarily about killing killing killing. With that said - and speaking of the origin of the term "The Blood of Vol", if not the beliefs that form the basis of the modern faith - according to this dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050124a), the sibling kings of the period claimed "that the Blood of Vol was to be completely destroyed, since even a drop could destroy all living things." Obviously this is some sort of metaphor, because if it literally had that level of deadly power, why didn't the war destroy everything? However, it certainly suggests that the elves were afraid of something more serious than the ability to use a 3rd level spell once per day.
eehamburg 01-31-08, 01:04 PM	With that said - and speaking of the origin of the term "The Blood of Vol", if not the beliefs that form the basis of the modern faith - according to this dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050124a), the sibling kings of the period claimed "that the Blood of Vol was to be completely destroyed, since even a drop could destroy all living things." Obviously this is some sort of metaphor, because if it literally had that level of deadly power, why didn't the war destroy everything? However, it certainly suggests that the elves were afraid of something more serious than the ability to use a 3rd level spell once per day. With that said ... this sounds like a campaign ready to explore. What did the mark do? Where did it come from? Brave and worthy souls need to travel and find out.
Gurv 01-31-08, 01:28 PM	A sound theory. If I lived on Eberron, I'd have, what...ten seconds to live? And I knew there was a dragonshard with info on the BoV in it. I just couldn't locate what I was looking for. "The rivalry between the Priests of the Transition and the followers of Vol had been building for thousands of years, and the appearance of the Mark of Death three thousand years ago simply made matters worse. The situation finally came to a head when the Cairdal Blades uncovered an alliance between Vol and a cabal of dragons. The extent and purpose of this alliance was never revealed to the public, but the Undying Court launched a full scale assault on the line of Vol. The Sibling Kings declared that the Blood of Vol was to be completely destroyed, since even a drop could destroy all living things. It was the first war between elves -- and the first time that dragons and elves sided against a common foe, since the forces of Argonnessen joined the Undying Court to destroy Vol and its allies." I've long noticed that the Blood of Vol and the Undying Court are essentially the flip side of the same religious coin. The differences stem more from the contrast between positive and negative energy. I now think that both systems were born from a rejection of the Thir/Sovereign religion that the dragons hoisted upon the giants...the elves just took it and ran. I think that the elves are on to the dragons to a certain degree. They have a version of the truth that the dragons consider blasphemous. The dragons want to believe that only dragons can ascend. But the Undying Court is proving otherwise, are they not? Amongst the Blood of Vol, the Sacrament of Blood that takes place on Revelations Day (which occurs on the 13th day of the 13th month in a clear example of the Baker's Dozen phenomenon) bears a remarkable resemblance to what FoE and Keith have said about the Undying Court being "collective god": FoE discusses this on page 139, touching on the fact that while the individual members of the court are not "gods", the court itself is a divine force - and that some say that the Progenitors were similar collective souls of people gone before. The fact that Revelations Day is also known as Ascension Day seems significant, doesn't it? The Seekers share blood (always with the blood, ever since the birth of the world!) and use ritual to concentrate the life energy within it. What better way to begin, if your goal is to bind the spirits and energy of the Seekers together in godhood?
Hellcow 01-31-08, 01:43 PM	With that said ... this sounds like a campaign ready to explore. You bet! ...which occurs on the 13th day of the 13th month... #@%$ this lousy Smarch weather!
Nundahl 01-31-08, 02:17 PM	lousy Smarch weather! Do not touch. -Willy
Edymnion 01-31-08, 09:40 PM	Of course, there are other branches that could be explored as to why house Vol was singled out. We more or less know that the Prophesy is a bit like psychohistory from Asimov's Foundation series. Where you can look at the big picture, see trends, and predict which way history will unfold by looking at turning points. And that the Prophesy holds multiple paths that can be manipulated if you know how and when to do so, in order to increase the odds of a desired outcome coming to pass. We also know that the Undying Court has some small ability to read the Prophesy as well, mainly given to the insanely long lifespans they poses, which gives them time to learn the basic rules us mere mortals cannot fathom. (the big sticking point here is that I'm not sure if the Undying Court was an established power at the time of the eradication of the House of Vol, or at least established enough to have a few millenia to study prophesy in). So, it could be that House Vol was not eradicated simply because she was a dragon with a dragonmark, she could have been a major turning point in the prophesy, like the birth of Hitlor in the real world. An event so huge that she (or at least a half dragon elf from the House of Vol with a dragonmark) would be the direct trigger for that it was obvious to both the undying and the dragons that she had to be stopped. Perhaps the green dragon that sired her wanted the other outcome, and was intentionally trying to guide the prophesy down the path to disaster (or whatever else it might have been). When both sides realized that Erandis existed, they went "Oh crap, the end of the world is just a few years from happening, this isn't just a prediction any more, its reality!" and decided to not only solve the current problem, but ensure that that path of the prophesy could never come to be by eradicating House Vol all together. Sort of like if the real world had known what Hitlor would have done, and went to war over him as a child, the allies trying to kill him to prevent WWII, the axis trying to save him to have their chance at domination. Only in Erandis's case, both sides went "Oh hell no!" and turned on her together.
Hellcow 01-31-08, 10:55 PM	We also know that the Undying Court has some small ability to read the Prophesy as well, mainly given to the insanely long lifespans they poses, which gives them time to learn the basic rules us mere mortals cannot fathom. (the big sticking point here is that I'm not sure if the Undying Court was an established power at the time of the eradication of the House of Vol, or at least established enough to have a few millenia to study prophesy in). You are correct. And the Court has been around for over 20,000 years, although its power and influence (both mystically and within Aereni society) have grown over that time. And the statement that (paraphrasing) "even a single drop of the Blood of Vol could destroy all living things" certainly makes more sense when viewed as a warning of the long-term consequences mapped out by the Prophecy as opposed to pure power wielded at the time by Erandis or her kin.
Edymnion 02-01-08, 08:43 AM	And the statement that (paraphrasing) "even a single drop of the Blood of Vol could destroy all living things" certainly makes more sense when viewed as a warning of the long-term consequences mapped out by the Prophecy as opposed to pure power wielded at the time by Erandis or her kin.Which would raise the idea of it not being magical or political power that is the problem, but that a member of it's bloodline would destroy the world. Which is just all the more delicious if Erandis is still the catalyst for armageddon, especially since it was the actions to prevent it that caused her to survive and become warped enough to actually carry it out.
Amaril 02-01-08, 09:43 AM	Which is just all the more delicious if Erandis is still the catalyst for armageddon, especially since it was the actions to prevent it that caused her to survive and become warped enough to actually carry it out. Oooh. Very Star Wars!
Gurv 02-01-08, 10:53 AM	Orelonastrix wasn't "just" the first Loredrake though. He was the dragon who first learned of the Draconic Prophecy. We are talking Day One of the Age of Giants here. I think that what they learned was the key to ascending, and the paths that would need to be taken. Hmmm. What he and Hezcalipa learned...led to the couatl sacrificing themselves as a race. Merging together into a "collective god" that wouldn't be known to humans as the Silver Flame for another million years. And the followers of the Silver Flame seek to join that collective themselves! Orelonastrix read in the Prophecy something about how the cycle of creation works. The greatest beings can merge their pure essences, producing "collective gods". This seems to require a combination of faith, time, and power. I think having a pretty good catalyst to get it started is important, which is why sacred shoes often fail at the task. The central doctrine of Thir suggests as much, as do the beliefs of the Undying Court. When this world ends, they hope to be the Progenitors of the next world. So, I think I've got it. The Sovereign Host is made up of dragons who seek to emulate certain archetypes. If successful, they ascend to the role of that Sovereign. I wonder if the previous dragon to hold that role ascends further at that time? I don't think so. I think that the new dragon joins the old ones, producing a stronger and greater "collective god". If the Orelonastrix who worked with Hezcalipa is the same one who taught the giants, he was over 40,000 years old by then. No doubt he had the power. The Silver Flame is composed mostly of couatl essence. When Tira Miron joined the Flame, she also joined the collective god- and was the first human to do so. This enabled the Silver Flame to more easily accept humans and similar mortals. Those who are pure enough are now able to join the collective god, as Doctrine suggests. The Undying Court is also a collective god, the most obvious one. Perhaps not as complete as the ones previously mentioned, as the elves tend to hang onto their physical bodies and individuality. But even those worshippers who are not worthy of being transformed into undying spend most of their long lives worshipping and channeling their faith to those who are. After death, it is possible that even these lesser elves contribute to the whole as spirits. The old line of Vol didn't manage to go the route that the Undying Court did. I suspect they had a similar plan though, which may or may not have gotten off the ground. I think they may have tried to get a head start by adding dragon-blood to their lines. The Mark of Death likely wasn't about killing (pure dragonmarks generally aren't), which leads one to think that they might have had resurrection-like powers, or unique abilities to stave off death. If they had a means by which to exists as pure spirit, then there was serious advantage (and who made their daughter a lich?! That isn't the way it normally goes!). Given the concern that the Sibling Kings had, I would say they were well on their way to accomplishing something that would have been, as they say "made of win". This suggests that there might be a "first to the finish-line" issue in the become-a-god race. The current incarnation, the Blood of Vol, seems to be Erandis piecing it back together. Without the power of her mark, she is encouraging her followers to purify themselves, seek the divinity within, and share it with other Seekers. The more followers the better, of course, so handing it to Karrnath was a step in that direction. If Kaius had been a better follower, Vol would likely have spread the faith across all of Galifar as he crushed the opposition under relentless undead feet. The faith's outlawed knighthood, named after her dad, is focused on recovering the power of the line of Vol and are active both in Xen'drik and on the mainland. The Cults of the Dragon Below are not left out. The demons are the oldest, and there is no question that the rajahs were powering their way into godhood. Like the couatl, they are more spirit than they are flesh. They were way ahead of everyone else, resulting in the Age of Demons. Maybe because the wounded Khyber was more able to convey what must be done than the dead Siberys. They were doing well, until the couatl got the message from the Prophecy. So there you have it. The Prophecy tells how the Progenitors did it, and guides those wise enough along a similar path. The fiends are all over it, and pretty much think they've won aside from that minor ten million year setback. The couatls formed the Silver Flame and humanity recently began joining them. The dragons started the Sovereigns and have tons of mortals adding faith to it. They try to keep us from trying the same thing, which is why they keep us in the dark about Thir and don't like us reading Prophecy, much less having it tattooed on our flesh. The elves know too much, and that's why the dragons hate them so: they've managed to start the Undying Court with the knowledge. The line of Vol had it all figured out, and with their dragonmark and dragonblood schemes, they would have left everyone else in the dust. They were stopped, but Erandis is still trying to put it back together. *takes a deep breath*
Smug 02-01-08, 03:10 PM	Orelonastrix wasn't "just" the first Loredrake though. He was the dragon who first learned of the Draconic Prophecy... I think that what they learned was the key to ascending, and the paths that would need to be taken. Sure... which would be right in line with the Undying Court being one of the other forces with an understanding of an interest in the Prophecy. After all, Thir says that the Prophecy is on some level the word of the Progenitors - and that those who ascend eventually rise to become one with the dragon gods, who themselves may be the Progenitors of the world to come. Which would be right in line with the FoE statement that the UC believes that the Progenitors were the collective force of a prior civilization. The old line of Vol didn't manage to go the route that the Undying Court did. I suspect they had a similar plan though, which may or may not have gotten off the ground. The thing to me is that I think the Blood of Vol had grander plans. I think that they see that all mortals have the potential to be part of a greater divinity - hence, the divinity within. But at least some variations of the faith hold that through the creation of death, the fearful gods have sought to stop mortals from achieving their full potential (something that is lost when one becomes undead). So as I see it, as opposed to the couatl sacrifice, or even the isolated force of the UC (which it's been said is limited in its total numbers due to its reliance on the positive energy of Irian and the worship of its living followers), the line of Vol had a plan that would have raised EVERYONE to this level of divinity - essentially transforming the world itself into a god. Hmm. Which would give us a collective god named "Eberron"... and didn't the UC say that the Progenitors were the collective force of a former age? If this is true, they could even be CORRECT in believing that the Sovereigns are against them. Because if Thir believes that their ascended will become the next Progenitors, but that there is a threat that the BoV could usurp this, naturally they'd be opposed to it. So yes, there may be a wacky metaphysical war in the shadows that we mere mortals know nothing about. Meanwhile, I'll note that there are a few other variations to this. The one that sticks in my mind is the draconic eidolon in The Gates of Night - a spiritual collective of dragons who have directed their souls to Dal Quor in order to escape the dissolution of Dolurrh. The presentation of this colletive spirit certainly seems like a similar thing to what we're discussing; I'll even note that when the eidolon spoke of arcane matters, it did so in the form of a blue dragon. The demons are the oldest, and there is no question that the rajahs were powering their way into godhood. I'm not sure I agree with this - especially given the idea that the fiends ruled Eberron for a million years, likely being the first "living" things to exist on the planet. It's also stated repeatedly that one of the main reasons that they were finally defeated is because of their overconfidence and disinterest in working together. I think that the immortal rajahs were too close to being gods already - and blinded by this near-divinity, overconfident in the power, had no interest in seeking something even greater. With that said, it strikes me that the rajahs are essentially the shattered soul of Khyber. If Khyber was once a true collective spirit of a former age, the rajahs may be archetypes of darkness splintered off from this primal consciousness. Again, this might mean that they COULD reform to recreate the primal Khyber (which might be what it would take for Khyber to "rise") - but given the passage of a million years with no progress, I think they are too bound to their individual identidies - and that is why they were ultimately defeated.
heirodule 02-04-08, 12:02 PM	What happened to "the three greatest of the progenitors were K, E and S"? In DoE, they are the only three.
Hellcow 02-04-08, 01:19 PM	What happened to "the three greatest of the progenitors were K, E and S"? In DoE, they are the only three. To begin with, everything concerning the Progenitors is myth and legend. Looking to DoE: The wisest dragons contend that the world was born in battle. According to myth, the emptiness before creation was the domain of three mighty dragons. It's all theoretical. Almost everyone knows the STORY of the Progenitors, but far fewer people take it as literal truth; few of the people of the Five Nations truly believe that they are walking around on the back of a dragon. Now in point of fact, it actually took me a while to track down the thing you were quoting (ECS p 224). Because if you check other descriptions (ECS p 129, PGtE p 30), the Progenitors are usually refered to as the three alone. Per the PGtE Creation Myths entry, they created the stars and spread life throughout the void. DoE clarifies that they created the planes. If the three of them did this alone, what role would there have been for others? And at the end, they became sky, world, and underworld - above, below, between. They weren't part of a greater society, because there was no society to be part of. WITH THAT SAID, if you look closer at the doctrine of Thir, it actually covers this exactly. What the ECS p. 224 says is that at some unknown time, "the world was one and the Progenitors ruled all." What Thir says is that you have three hierarchies: the Progenitors, who ARE the universe; the dragon gods, who govern the universe; and the Sovereigns, who oversee the lesser races. And... Eventully the draconic Prophecy will run its course, and this creation will come to an end. A new set of Progenitors will be chosen from among the Dragon Gods... and the most worthy of the ascended Sovereigns will in turn rise to become the Dragon Gods of the next creation. So essentially, the section you quoted from the ECS could be seen as refering to a previous cycle of creation. The three "mightiest" of that creation were Eberron, Siberys, and Khyber, and thus they became the Progenitors of the next creation. If you take the myths of Thir as literal truth, there WERE other dragons before... namely, Chronepsis, Bahamut, and the rest of the Dragon Gods. Now, whether those beings were the spirits of individual dragons or collective souls of ascended dragons is a completely different question; the Silver Flame and Undying Court certainly suggest that spiritual union is the path to divinity, and the Sovereigns are supposed to rise up to "join" the Dragon Gods when a new Sovereign ascends. So perhaps in the previous creation only the dragons discovered the secret... but now the Undying Court is a viable contender to become a Progenitor of the next creation!
Siran Dunmorgan 02-05-08, 04:44 AM	To provide yet another perspective on the matter, we note as follows: The Eberron Campaign Setting, in the entry found on page 158—The Demon Wastes—contains a number of oft-overlooked assertions concerning the nature and number of the Progenitors and their activities, to wit: "This was the age of the progenitor wyrms, the first and greatest of dragonkind. Of these powerful creatures, three stood above the rest—Eberron, Syberis, and Khyber." Further, they are not spoken of as having created the Planes, rather, the planes were: "bound to the world… pulled from distant locations and attached via magic of unbelievable power." There is much else in this entry regarding the very earliest history of the world, though, as has been suggested, this is all according to the sages; it is still the case that the earliest times of which we can reasonably speak to objective, verifiable fact is the Age of Demons. Now, prior to the publication of Dragons of Eberron [1], this was more or less all that had been written on the subject. The passage was suffiiciently evocative, however, particularly in reference to the planes having existed elsewhere, and having been bound to the world by the Progenitors, that the idea of the Progenitors as dragons, with draconic attitudes and practices, strongly suggests that the Planes constituted the treasure, the hoard, of the Progenitors, that they collected aspects of being the way lesser dragons collect gold and gems. The notion of the Sovereigns as ascended dragons is given some credence by the Eberron Campaign Setting entry concerning the Sorceror class, found on page 42; in particular, the name of one of the ascended, Dolleirranasha the Red, suggests the name and appearance of Dol Arrah. However, there has been mention in the works of Hellcow, the hadith, if you will, of Eberron, suggesting that the inhabitants of the other planes are aware of and in some cases, serve the Sovereigns; in particular, certain archons of Shavarath were noted as acting in the Service of Dol Arrah, particularly with reference to contact other plane spells, e.g. answering the spell on behalf of the deity. This, in turn, suggests that the genesis of the Sovereigns lies in some veiled time so long ago that not even immortals remember it, e.g., something happened to give rise to the faith in the Sovereigns, and it affected even the other planes. In concert with the notion cited above, that Eberron, Khyber and Syeris were not alone as Progenitors, this suggests that the Sovereigns were in origin Progenitors not of the stature of the Three, but still influential in the world. —Siran Dunmorgan [1] Disclaimer: I have not read Dragons of Eberron: I own a copy, and keep promising myself that I'm going to read it soon, but that hasn't happened yet.
Hellcow 02-05-08, 12:55 PM	Further, they are not spoken of as having created the Planes, rather, the planes were:"bound to the world… pulled from distant locations and attached via magic of unbelievable power." Indeed... though once again, the quoted sentence actually begins "Some legends say that the planes were bound to the world..." There are no hard facts where the progenitors are concerned; it's all myth and legend, and some of those legends contradict one another. However, there has been mention in the works of Hellcow, the hadith, if you will, of Eberron, suggesting that the inhabitants of the other planes are aware of and in some cases, serve the Sovereigns; Although to clarify, these divine servants are "aware" of the Sovereigns in the same way that mortals are; they believe in their existence, channel their power, and serve their cause. Even the celestial who serves Dol Arrah doesn't physically sit at her right hand; however, he may be more certain in his faith than any mortal could be, and tell you that he speaks with her voice and acts as her sword. He is utterly certain that he knows her will. But he can't actually physically introduce you to her.
Siran Dunmorgan 02-05-08, 04:15 PM	Although to clarify, these divine servants are "aware" of the Sovereigns in the same way that mortals are; they believe in their existence, channel their power, and serve their cause. Even the celestial who serves Dol Arrah doesn't physically sit at her right hand; however, he may be more certain in his faith than any mortal could be, and tell you that he speaks with her voice and acts as her sword. He is utterly certain that he knows her will. But he can't actually physically introduce you to her. Of course! The important point here is that the existence of celestials who serve the Sovereigns is strongly suggestive of the idea that faith in the Sovereigns is not simply a mortal, material-planar conceit. Now, if the Progenitors created the planes—as apparently suggested by Dragons of Eberron—including the outsiders that inhabit them, and the outsiders have faith in the Sovereigns, is it not a ready conclusion that the Sovereigns pre-date the outsiders of the planes? This lends some credence to the supposition that the Sovereigns, as dragons, were among the "lesser" Progenitors implied by the passage cited above. [1] It is possible, of course, that the celestials adopted their faith in the Host after the rise of civilization on Eberron, and were, however unlikely this seems, converted to the faith in merely prehistoric, as opposed to truly archaean, times. As far as we know, [2] the dragons themselves have not been active in a significant way on the other planes: their society is largely concerned with the Prophecy, which, following Hellcow's guidelines, is itself principally concerned with Eberron: it can offer guidance regarding traffic with the planes—witness Vvaraak's founding of the Gatekeepers based upon a prophesied invasion—but does not apply to the planes themselves. [3] From what source, then, would arise a belief in the Sovereigns among the outsiders of the other planes, if, as has been suggested, the Sovereigns are ascended dragons? Personally, I find that the various statements and models make most sense if the Sovereigns are regarded as "lesser" Progenitors: still of dragon-kind, but of another order of power from the dragons of today, mighty as they are. On the other hand, the idea of a kind of mendicant, missionary saint going among the celestials of the planes and converting them by word and deed to reverence of the host seems the very epitome of epic quests… Let us say, then, that it is a mystery of Eberron, a matter taken up by each Dungeon Master and resolved as she sees fit, to eke out the each full measure of enjoyment that the setting can provide to players and Dungeon Master alike. [4] —Siran Dunmorgan P.S. Though the source is not necessarily canon, it is also the case that in the setting of the computer game Dragonshard, much is made of archons who apparently adhere to the Church of the Silver Flame, suggesting that the celestials occasionally adopt faiths native to Eberron. [1] Eberron Campaign Setting, page 158. [2] Again, the disclaimer that I have not read Dragons of Eberron. [3] In a private conversation, Hellcow suggested that each of the planes might have its own Prophecy, with the possibility that a sort of meta-Prophecy unites all of them. [4] Not, mind you, that the matter cannot be more extensively discussed here, as it is, no doubt, in the coffee-houses nearby to Morgrave University or other seats of erudition.
Gurv 02-06-08, 07:11 AM	I see it like this. The world as we know it isn't the way Things Are Supposed To Be. Being an eternal cycle, it is hard to know how it began. But the proper cycle of things goes like this: Beings on a level of power similar to Io, Chronispis, (etc.) discover or create "the Prophecy". This allows them to create/become the next reality. In effect, mastering the Prophecy allows a Dragon God to become a Progenitor. <begin new cycle> The Progenitors create/become the world. Life is created in their image (dragons). Those who held the position of Sovereign previously become Dragon Gods of the new reality. The dragons worship the Dragon Gods, and learn to embody archetypes. Success results in ascending to the power of Sovereign. The more dragons that successfully achieve the archetype, the more powerful it becomes. Those who fail to master divinity are set aside in a place devoid of it (Dolurrh). Eventually, the Dragon Gods discover or create the means to create/become the next reality (the Prophecy). <repeat cycle> Note that when the Dragon Gods create/become the world, they do so as one. This is an entirely dragon-centric cycle, and it is unlikely that any other types of creatures exist. This cycle has gone on uninterrupted for all time. At the beginning of our cycle, the Dragon Gods were all curled up together like the close siblings that they were. Picture a nest of content dragons. They had just finished putting the Prophecy together, doing whatever is done to make it ready. They were about to make use of it and become the next world, the next reality. Their underlings, the Sovereigns Bahamut, Io, Chronepsis, etc., had grown as great as the Dragon Gods had once been. All was ready, as it should be. Like a seed ready to grow, it waited to transform the Dragon Gods into Progenitors. But then something happened that had never happened before. A pair of the close-knit Dragon Gods began to argue about what the next world should be like. Siberys wanted one thing, while Khyber wanted another. As mere Sovereigns (maybe a billion years ago), they had been the most revered and had grown to great size. But they could never agree, for their archetypes (what we might call good and evil) were so opposed. For the first time ever, Dragon Gods fought over control of the Prophecy. The nesting Gods (Fernia, Risia, Dal Quor, and the others) scattered to a safe distance, trying to stay out of it. After a eon or two, it was over. Khyber gave Siberys a death blow. But then Eberron intervened, not wanting the next world to be decided by only one. She shattered the Prophecy, releasing the energy and separating the two battling Gods. Shards of the shattered Prophecy embedded themselves in all three, even as Eberron wrapped Khyber in her coils. Other shards struck the other siblings orbiting nearby, unsure of what to do. As the world came into being, it was not a cohesive world formed by all the Progenitors. The Prophecy had transformed them, but separately. All except the Three, who formed the core that they all circled. Life began on each world, separate and alien from each other. The orbiting realities, the planes, could embody only simple concepts because they were formed of single Progenitors. The Three, however, produced a much more rich and complex world. But it was a world in conflict and in pain, with flaws and imperfections that never arose in previous worlds. Dragons were born, but so were demons and lesser beings. Knowledge had been lost in the chaos as well, and the Age of Demons took place before the dragons learned about the Prophecy. It was the couatl who understood it first. They became the Silver Flame, a collective divinity that bent its power to binding the children of Khyber back in the depths. With the demons dealt with, Orelonastrix worked to solve the problem of the rampant lesser beings who had no role in the cycle. Teaching them law and civilization and magic, he turned them to the worship of the Sovereigns, one of whom he became. This allowed them to channel what divine energy they had back into the cycle. But some of the lesser beings learned different ways. Orelonastrix had steered them away from necromancy and blood magic because he was afraid they would tamper with the spiritual energy that was needed for the Prophecy to unfold. He was correct. Lesser beings, such as those who created the Undying Court, learned that spiritual energy could be retained and combined into a greater divinity, even without the pure power of dragon's' blood. The dragons turned to war with them in an attempt to slow their success...perhaps not knowing the result of destroying such a divine collective. They moved quickly enough when the line of Vol mixed dragon blood into their own though. With an actual piece of the Prophecy upon them, the dragon blood made the possibility of them ascending a true threat. And a divine being so opposed to the true Sovereigns could only spell disaster. And so it goes. The pattern has been broken, and lesser beings have gotten into the gears of the cycle. The Prophecy is so scattered the mortal dragons don't know what move to make. The Sovereigns have been joined by others who are not draconic nor allied with their cause. And the Dragon Gods want only that their descendants put it right.
AlHazred 02-09-08, 12:51 PM	This thread is made of win. I will add a further wrinkle. Whence came the schism between Khyber and Siberys? The great Progenitors embodied all that would be saved of the World Before. Decisions had been made as to what would be saved and what would be discarded as dross; these decisions had molded the Prophecy. But what if, in the World Before, there had been forces every bit as rebellious and cunning as the Blood of Vol? What if they had discovered a way to Taint one of the Progenitors? Perhaps he had thought he was merely absorbing their power and might, but in actuality, this power was Tainted with their essence. The Taint may have been innocuous, whispering thoughts of balance between elements, or perhaps it was as direct as the raw promise of sole power. But this then became the Original Sin of Khyber. And when he was bound by Eberron, those Taints from the World Before were once more in their creation, Ascended (Descended?) to a new level as the previous Sovereigns had ascended to the Dragon Gods. They had become the Rajahs, and as they formed the core of the world, they had become indestructibly woven into the fabric of the new universe. Then it also becomes clear how the rakshasa Rajahs can disagree. Perhaps some believe that this is their last chance, and that the destruction of this world will herald their end -- they seek to forestall destruction. Others perhaps believe that they may Descend to further levels of divinity, beings of pure negative energy escaping the trap of Creation to whatever world the Dragon Gods ascend to after the cycle. Still others seek to infect the next group of potential Progenitors, and some of them think that the next group will include non-dragons with marks of the Prophecy upon them...
Edymnion 02-15-08, 08:41 PM	How about taking a page from Hindu mythology to set up a really kick ass framework? Eberron is Brahman, Siberys is Vishnu, Khyber is Shiva "Since the beginning of time, and even before, the holy trinity has overseen the cycle of creation. Eberron, the great creator, from who all things flow. Siberys, the preserver, guardian of all that is, and all this is to be. Khyber, the destroyer, tasked with the destruction of the world when all becomes old and worn, so that Eberron may awaken and begin the process anew. As it always has been, and as it always should be. But lo, after countless cycles of birth and death, mighty Khyber grew restless and displeased with his task, and sought to end the great cycle. In his wrath, he struck down Siberys, the defender, and turned to unmake the world while it was still in it's infancy. Enraged by this betrayal, the creator Eberron made war with Khyber, and after great struggle prevailed. Unlike the destroyer, the creator respected Khyber's place in the cycle, and did not unmake him, as Khyber had unmade Siberys. Instead, Eberron took the destroyer unto his breast, and did make him a part of himself, creator and destroyer in one. Such is the reason why our world exists in such turmoil. The land is both creator and destroyer, giving us life, and then taking it away again at a whim, while all about us is change. Where mighty Siberys was to preserve us, he is no more, and we are cursed to follow him in his fate. The great cycle has been broken, the holy trinity is no more. Should we seek to maintain this period, in constant struggle to prevent the end of all that is? Or should we hasten the turning, so that all might be put right? Will the gods be reborn along with the world when the next cycle comes, or have we reached the end of ends, beyond which there is nothing? We do not know, and by the very nature of things, we cannot know, for the next cycle cannot begin while we remain. Wise indeed is the man who realizes that he knows nothing." It even gets the Blood of Vol in there, with the idea that we are supposed to be immortal and perfect, with Siberys preserving us in unchanging glory, but the betrayal of Khyber introduced entropy and death.
Syltorian 02-16-08, 06:28 AM	Well done, Edymnion!
Siran Dunmorgan 02-16-08, 05:20 PM	It even gets the Blood of Vol in there, with the idea that we are supposed to be immortal and perfect, with Siberys preserving us in unchanging glory, but the betrayal of Khyber introduced entropy and death. Blood of Vol? Great Khyber, man! It dovetails perfectly with what the Children of Winter are trying to achieve. Now the Children are coming across less like Celtic-inspired druids, and more like Ganges-Valley-style Hindu ascetics, complete with body piercings, face painting, and that wild-haired look. There's a lot of good material there. —Siran Dunmorgan
Edymnion 02-16-08, 08:08 PM	Blood of Vol? Great Khyber, man! It dovetails perfectly with what the Children of Winter are trying to achieve.Ooh, didn't even think of them! There you go, there's their non-evil motivation, they believe this world is flawed and imperfect, and with Khyber gone, there is no one to end it so that a new, more perfect world can be born. So, roll up your sleeves boys, looks like we gotta do it ourselves!
AlHazred 02-20-08, 10:21 PM	Here's another idea that occurred to me regarding Eberron theogony. Of the invasions that have wracked Eberron, there is one which we "know" the reason for -- the Quori invasion. Supposedly, the Quori invaded to try to prevent the "Turning of the Age" when their universe undergoes a complete rebirth, becoming something new. Their invasion then makes some sense. We now postulate that perhaps the rajahs, too, seek to prevent or affect the "Turning of the Age," when the new Progenitors will make a new Universe from the wreckage of the old. What about the daelkyr invasion from Xoriat? Little mention has been made of the reasons behind this invasion. Perhaps most scholars believe that these beings are insane, and that any reasons for their invasion must be similarly beyond human comprehension. But we have seen that benevolent organizations such as the Children of Winter, the Blood of Vol, and the Lords of Dust have been vilified by the puppets of the ruling entities; perhaps this is also the case for Xoriat? Perhaps they also seek to prevent a "Turning of the Age" on their home plane? Perhaps this has happened and no one has noticed because the plane is now so difficult to reach? Perhaps the Gatekeepers actually had little to do with it, and the plane's distance is a side effect of its "Turning"?
Alter_Boy 02-21-08, 01:26 AM	So Giants say that Orelon, their god, taught them magic Dragons say that one of them, Orelonastrix, taught magic to the giants. Sovereign Hosters say that Aureon, the god who sometimes appears as a blue dragon, taught magic to mortals, and Orelon is the giant name for Aureon. If you played the "tape" of a image recorder of Orelonastrix teaching the giants magic, or you similarly had time travel magic, what would a Sovereign Hoster decide? 1. His whole life is a lie, and magic was taught by a now-dead dragon (a dragon that the dragons claim IS now aureon) 2. That Aureon was the power "behind" Orelonastrix the whole time. 3. Mythic tales are mythic, and not to be taken literally? 4. Other? Or is it a key element of eberron theology that there are no ways to accurately know the distant past objectively. I think, if you went back in time and recorded the images, it would be YOU people worshipped from then on.
Edymnion 02-21-08, 09:11 AM	I think, if you went back in time and recorded the images, it would be YOU people worshipped from then on.In soviet Eberron, dragons worship you!
Gurv 02-21-08, 07:14 PM	What about the daelkyr invasion from Xoriat? Little mention has been made of the reasons behind this invasion. Perhaps most scholars believe that these beings are insane, and that any reasons for their invasion must be similarly beyond human comprehension. But we have seen that benevolent organizations such as the Children of Winter, the Blood of Vol, and the Lords of Dust have been vilified by the puppets of the ruling entities; perhaps this is also the case for Xoriat? Perhaps they also seek to prevent a "Turning of the Age" on their home plane? Perhaps this has happened and no one has noticed because the plane is now so difficult to reach? Perhaps the Gatekeepers actually had little to do with it, and the plane's distance is a side effect of its "Turning"? I think that each plane is dealing with the same kind of spiritual evolution that we've been talking about here. The material plane is much more complex, given the combative nature of the Progenitors who merged to create it. The process seems to be one where various elements are constantly merged and tested, with the best rising to higher states of being. Dal Quor's Turning of the Age is one way this is done. Other planes may have different methods. The Prophecy guides this processes, demands it take place. The shattered nature of this age alters the way the process is supposed to go. The Progenitors should have been doing this together, with all of their energies combined into one universe. Instead, they are seperate, each seeking to evolve as best they can. I suspect that they know it to be impossible: they must contribute what they create to restore the Whole. There is evidence of brief attempts at merging: manifest zones and coterminous periods. Each allows a little of the planes power to seep back together. Xoriat's nature may simply be more aggressive than the rest, eager to contribute its glory to the whole. The fact that it was a dragon who founded the Gatekeepers cannot be overlooked. Vvaraak was a Child of Eberron. That places her squarely into exactly what we're talking about here: she must have sought to emulate Arawai.
davethebrave371 02-23-08, 01:29 PM	:OMG! This thread is amazing.
Bocamb 02-23-08, 07:43 PM	This thread is amazing - I have two PCs (one's an archivist, the other an Aereni elf) that are interested in pursuing these very questions. This is most helpful. I'll add something that I've partially thought about (after explaining my rationales). I was trying to "figure out" Thir and the relationship between Aureon and the Shadow. I had decided (as others on this thread) that the historical analogue behind the the myth of Aureon's division from his Shadow was the teaching of magic to the giants by the dragons and its subsequent corruption by the giants. I also agree that this lead to a third branch of magic, namely, the magic of the elves (a corruption of an already debased magic). To outline a "scheme" for Thir (as the archetypal faith), I came up with the following sets of correspondences: Dragons -> Aureon -> Siberys Giants -> Shadow -> Khyber Elves -> Blood of Vol -> Eberron My idea is that “Thir” has implications for explaining the occurrence of dragonmarks. According to Dragons of Eberron a popular theory among devotees to the Sovereign Host is that the Prophecy is the creation of Aureon, Sovereign of Law and Lore. There is also a theory among Zil scholars that the Prophecy is the ultimate source of magical energy since magic has the power to reshape reality, and the draconic Prophecy is the ultimate expression of this. It would stand to reason then that the occurrence of mixed and aberrant dragonmarks (which come in two types: blue-green and red marks) may have some connection to the blood-magics practiced by the giants (mixed marks) and the elves (truly aberrant marks). One might plausibly explore the origins of aberrant dragonmarks by studying texts sacred to the Blood of Vol or the Shadow. Once again, one could diagram the dragonmarks according to the three progenitors: True marks (Bluish-purple) -> associated with the Dragons and Siberys Mixed-marks (Blue-green) -> associated with the Giants and Khyber True Aberrant (Red) -> associated with the Elves and Eberron The association of the elves and Eberron makes some sense for me; after all, the elves and the halflings were the first races to show dragonmarks (ECS Timeline, p. 224).
Gurv 02-25-08, 06:18 PM	It dovetails perfectly with what the Children of Winter are trying to achieve. Hmm. The druid sects are a section of religion that I hadn't considered yet. But it makes perfect sense. It wasn't until I mentioned that the Gatekeepers were founded by Vvaraak that I started to think about the connections. Vvaraak was a Child of Eberron, part of the Thir religion that teaches that dragons can ascend to godhood, join the Sovereigns. Vvaraak was obviously more of an Arawai than a Devourer, but Thir doesn't draw much distinction between the roles. Ironically enough, that means that the druidic tradition was actually started by Arawai herself (in a manner of speaking). But look at the druids and the role they play in the Prophecy and the evolution of the planes. The Gatekeepers, the oldest and first tradition, is devoted above all else to keeping Eberron free of the influence of other planes. Specifically Xoriat. If any plane could be said to be aligned with the forces of Khyber, it would be Xoriat. Unnatural to the extreme, the masters of that plane were even defeated in a similar manner to the demons. The Ashbound are like the Gatekeepers in that they reject everything not of Eberron. They take this to a overwhelming extreme. The Gatekeepers seem willing to accept magic (souce: Siberys) while the Ashbound do not. The Children of Winter seek the end of this world so that the next one can be born. The Greensingers are strongly affiliated with the planes, especially Thelanis. They practically call for the barriers to be torn down, for all the planes to become one. To me it seems like Vvaraak (in her role as a pseudo-Arawai) wants to help the universe heal itself, to bring the planes together the way they should be. That is what Eberron wanted, to stop the fight and restore the cycle. But perhaps some of the planes are more supportive of Khyber, as Xoriat and perhaps Mabar seem to be. The Gatekeepers stopped the aggressive attack by Xoriat. The younger sects seem to have taken bits and pieces of Vvaraak's teaching and made them their own. The Greensingers know that the multiverse should be a universe, and that planes like Thelanis and Lammina need to be encouraged to take a big role in that. The Children of Winter focus on hastening the process, bringing about the end by any means and being done with it; they don't seem to care who 'wins' the battle. The Ashbound want a pure Eberron victory. Of course, none of them remember the reason behind their philosophies, if they ever really knew them. Vvaraak was a clever one, as you would expect from a dragon so advanced in the Thir cause and accomplished in the Prophecy. Not only did she plant the seed that would grow in so many needed directions, she did it in exactly the right place. It wasn't just Xoriat that was ready to invade...the Gloaming shows that there is a weak point to Mabar in the Reaches. Had the Gatekeepers not been there, the daelkyr could have had Mabaran allies. That catastrophe was averted so well that no one realizes how total Eberron's defeat would have been. With the rakshasa in the Demon Wastes, Mabar invading through the Reaches, and Xoriat marching in Dhakaan...well, it sounds like an Khyber inspired plan to me. Point? The Prophecy calls for the Progenitors to become a single universe. But some of the planes (Xoriat, Mabar) favor Khyber's dark plans, while others (Thelanis, Lammina) support Eberron. Vvaraak sought to prevent a Xoriat/Mabar/Khyber driven plot to dominate the union.
Scion_of_The_Eternal 02-27-08, 09:54 AM	This thread is really inspiring. Mind if I join? Most of the theories consider the world as it is now to be flawed. But, what if is is not? That the war among The Progenitors and the resulted chaos was something that supposed to happen instead of a mistake? If the draconic cycle of worlds did exist, how it began and how The Prophecy that guided it came into being? Harmony and perfection should not be the only part of a cycle. Perhaps the world, or what would became the world, is nothing but chaos at first. The primeval races were struggling to win their place in the world, just like the world right now. After uncountable eons, the dragons come as the victor. They claim the world to be their right and the mightiest of them became The Progenitors or the core of it, while others merge with them. The Prophecy was created to serve as guide for their children to reach ascension. The draconic cycle began. Thousand worlds created and destroyed ever since. The cycle went on perfection. Then dissension arose among the progenitors. Creating the world as it is now. A multiverse, separated into different planes, with the central one being a place of strife and wars. A new phase of chaos has started. Maybe that was meant to be. The cycle of worlds itself is a a part of a greater cycle. Reality itself is shifting between chaos and order. The perfection of the dragons' dominion has last long enough. With this world it may come into an end. But it should not be the end of everything. After the chaos, other beings shall rise to create a new order, established another Prophecy, and became the next Progenitors. Many creation myth (in our reality) tells of some conflict in primeval time, or before time, that became the source of all the bad things in the world. The flaws of the world. But, without it there will be no world at all. There is nothing wrong at all with the (Eberron) multiverse. It is just part of the process of reality. By the way, they said that the Progenitors were dragons, but how do we know that? And who said that the dragons in the world before was like they are now? In the world before, The Progenitors can be anything. Please forgive my English.
Nanyea 02-27-08, 05:55 PM	On the matter of symbology and dragons; People (races, ethnicities, etc) like to imagine a creator in their image or themselves born in their creators image hence dragons for dragons, humans for humans... and in some cases both real and fictional they will ascribe powers to forms they find as ideal (humans worshiping wolves and tigers or perhaps dragons and demons) When you take this very real element of human psychology and implement it into the hand me down nature of myth and oral traditions (with historical fact being few and far between), these tales get twisted so as to make the most sense to their audience as well as to appeal and relate to them. In all likelihood as a student of the arcane orders, I would surmise that Khyber, Eberron and Siberys are so far beyond mortal forms and beings of pure spirit that create a wrinkle of reality in the limited perceptions of mortals that they manifest as physical objects (constellations, the sky, the ground and more). While in effect all these things are actually infused with this primal essence of the creators their consciousness exists on a level so far beyond ours that we require intermediaries to communicate and interact with them. These could exist as an entire pantheon of gods, demons and celestials each at varying levels represent different ideals and concepts that the whole embodies but are far to complex in their purest form that we must muddy them up in order to gain the barest grasp of their reality. That being said, there has been much discussion on ascension to these higher levels which in all likelihood is beyond any mere mortal creature, even a dragon by herself... therefore requiring the merging of many consciousnesses, power sources, faith and more in order to bend reality and create a paradigm in which to understand these varying complex orders above our own. This can be evidenced as stated previously by the undying ones and the purified who reach out for this next level yet currently exist in a transitory state still within our comprehension but not quite evolved.
Gurv 02-28-08, 12:12 AM	In all likelihood as a student of the arcane orders, I would surmise that Khyber, Eberron and Siberys are so far beyond mortal forms and beings of pure spirit that create a wrinkle of reality in the limited perceptions of mortals that they manifest as physical objects (constellations, the sky, the ground and more). While in effect all these things are actually infused with this primal essence of the creators their consciousness exists on a level so far beyond ours that we require intermediaries to communicate and interact with them. These could exist as an entire pantheon of gods, demons and celestials each at varying levels represent different ideals and concepts that the whole embodies but are far to complex in their purest form that we must muddy them up in order to gain the barest grasp of their reality. Precisely. I suspect that reality may actually consist of many nested layers. The Progenitors are so beyond our comprehension that they completely form the reality we are a part of and exceed it. We cannot hope to imagine with any accuracy things that exceed our reality, and so the dragons personify the Progenitors as beings like themselves. Furthermore, the Progenitors themselves originated within a reality that was equally beyond their own ken. Or perhaps understanding the Prophecy is one and the same with attaining that enlightenment and comprehension. Harmony and perfection should not be the only part of a cycle. Perhaps the world, or what would became the world, is nothing but chaos at first. My suggestion of how the cycle is supposed to go was indeed a generalization. There are variable in most cycles, I imagine. The process seems similar to a chemical process in which many things are combined and the best drawn off for the next cycle. Impurities would come about much of the time, and sometimes those impurities could threaten to spoil the whole batch. But I think that this time, something has gone a great distance out of the normal parameters.
Scion_of_The_Eternal 02-28-08, 02:22 AM	On the matter of symbology and dragons; People (races, ethnicities, etc) like to imagine a creator in their image or themselves born in their creators image hence dragons for dragons, humans for humans... and in some cases both real and fictional they will ascribe powers to forms they find as ideal (humans worshiping wolves and tigers or perhaps dragons and demons) When you take this very real element of human psychology and implement it into the hand me down nature of myth and oral traditions (with historical fact being few and far between), these tales get twisted so as to make the most sense to their audience as well as to appeal and relate to them. In all likelihood as a student of the arcane orders, I would surmise that Khyber, Eberron and Siberys are so far beyond mortal forms and beings of pure spirit that create a wrinkle of reality in the limited perceptions of mortals that they manifest as physical objects (constellations, the sky, the ground and more). I agree. My suggestion of how the cycle is supposed to go was indeed a generalization. There are variable in most cycles, I imagine. The process seems similar to a chemical process in which many things are combined and the best drawn off for the next cycle. Impurities would come about much of the time, and sometimes those impurities could threaten to spoil the whole batch. But I think that this time, something has gone a great distance out of the normal parameters What is the normal parameters? Even if the world is unlike any that came before it doesn't mean that it is wrong. Maybe there was a purpose for it. And who can understand the motives of The Progenitors? Again, people consider their imperfect world to be wrong and that it is not what The Progenitors meant to be. Yes, it is flawed. But I don't think it is wrong. This is what The Progenitors wanted to create.
Gurv 02-28-08, 03:41 AM	This is what The Progenitors wanted to create. That is not what the legends suggest. They suggest that Siberys and Khyber had such differing opinions of how the world should be that they fought to the death over it. When Khyber seemed to be winning, Eberron stepped in and tried to set things right. Therefore the world is not what the Progenitors wanted to create. It is, in fact, the result of a great deal of disagreement over how existence should be shaped. What is the normal parameters? Since what we know suggests that conflict between the Progenitors is abnormal, we must assume that cooperation of some kind is normal. When I say "normal parameters", I imagine that the worlds that came before have had some conflict within them, a few flaws that had to be ironed out. But it seems that our world is far more divided than what has come before. Then again, maybe everything is exactly the way it should be. I'm sure that's what the Riedrans tell their children too.