Blowing out the Silver Pilot Light... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Blowing out the Silver Pilot Light... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Warforged Goblin
07-05-07, 02:12 PM Quick little breakdown/background for the character in question:

Harkanon Etelberk, Human warblade - Born Karrnathi, family moved to Thranish territory when he was very young, calls himself a paladin of the Silver Flame despite not actually being one (I use the paladin PrC from Unearthed Arcana), kicked out and (unknown to him) actively hunted by the Flame because "he is destined to unleash a great and terrible evil", and married to Kellry, the shifter barbarian (Wife IRL, think Wash and Zoe from "Firefly").

Now, long story short, the demon bound within the Flame (whoever it may be) is subtely directing the young "paladin" to release his chosen *I can't remember her name* Mirron from the Stone Ward in Dreadhold. After doing so, betrayal's shall be revealed after she whisks away to Flamekeep to beat the underage-snot outta the current Keeper and somehow "shutting off" the Silver Flame. Of course, since the paladins and clerics can't access any of their powers, the only one who can save the day is the paladin who isn't. Now, I realize that completely cutting off the source of divine energy would have massive in-game ramifications, so I'm thinking of limiting it to only just the city of Flamekeep. Has anyone ever done anything like this before and if so, how did it turn out?

Thanx in advance.
stone_dog
07-07-07, 03:37 PM Even if the character can take out an entire temple of guards, clerics and an 18th level hierophant as well as put out a fire spread throughout the world fed by the souls of thousands of coatls it will do nothing to "cut off" divine powers. The Flame is only the focus point of faith, not the source of it. No cleric who holds true to his faith will lose a drop of power.

In Eberron, gods don't grant spells.
Warforged Goblin
07-07-07, 07:35 PM Even if the character can take out an entire temple of guards, clerics and an 18th level hierophant as well as put out a fire spread throughout the world fed by the souls of thousands of coatls it will do nothing to "cut off" divine powers. The Flame is only the focus point of faith, not the source of it. No cleric who holds true to his faith will lose a drop of power.

In Eberron, gods don't grant spells.

The character wouldn't be the one taking out the Flame, the NPC that he unleashed would. In case you're wondering, the NPC that I'm talking about is Melysse Miron, the chosen of the Shadow of the Flame. I realize that the "gods" don't power Eberronian clerics and that faith is the "real" power behind a cleric, but what if that faith is shaken? What if a cleric of the Silver Flame watches the susposed font of his power gets *****-slapped by a near-demonic powerhouse? That's what I want to know. I intend to have the current Keeper get slapped around quite a bit and possibly have the Silver Flame just go out due to the demon bound within gaining more power on the outside, as represented by the fight between the two Chosen. Does that make any sense, or am I talking out my ass?
stone_dog
07-08-07, 02:09 AM You might be talking out your ass just a little, yeah. This kind of apocalyptical vision is probably outside the scope of one NPC. Flamekeep isn't even the source of the Silver Flame, just the point where it connects to the surface most obviously. There are orcs on the borders of the Demon Wastes who have worshiped the Flame for generations without even hearing about the Church as a whole.

More likely, the whispers would slowly turn more potent and the tenents of the Church would slowly take on a darker tone as the demon became more powerful. Thrane would slip into tyranny and become more like Karnnath in many negative ways.

If the flame goes out though, yes, people who witness this event may well lose their faith. People who hear may lose their faith when they see some sort of proof. What won't happen is clerics and paladins having their powers instantly winking out of existance all over the world.

Thing is, I don't think the demon in the flame WANTS the Flame to go out. It wants to take control of the flame and turn it back to Crimson the way it used to be (or the way it remembers). You may well be turning Thrane into Mordor and making them one of the villains of the setting, but I think there would still be lots of Clerics who believe the Flame could never be put out and will return again.

Question, do the PCs have a chance of realizing their mistakes and stopping this terrible fate?
Syltorian
07-08-07, 07:24 AM I agree with Stone Dog here. None of the faithful believe that the physical Silver Flame in Flamekeep Cathedral is the source of power for the clerics and paladins. Some might lose their faith, or at least have it shaken enough by the bad omen that the disappearance of the little fire would be, but many others will simply turn to fanaticism.

Besides, as Stone Dog also says, the Demon in the Flame does not want the Flame to disappear. It could, however, stop being silver. My best guess is that Melysse Miron's actions, if she beats the Keeper, would cause the Flame to turn dark again, as it did before Tira Miron charged in and bound the demon again. That'd be more consistent with canon, and perhaps even a worse sign than the Flame, disappearing. After all, the Flame is not a manifestation of the Silver Flame. It's a manifestation of the Fiend in the Flame turned silver by Tira's actions. If it disappears, some might conclude that it finally destroyed the fiend!

With that said, the return of Melysse Miron, the Flame turning dark again has potential. Jaela Daran is definitely going to lose about 15 levels of cleric, which would shake the structure of the Flame up quite a lot. Most of the High Cardinals would probably die. It won't change much to the faith of Flamekeep, but it would destroy the entire structure and prevent any coordinated response. It will leave in charge the few already corrupted members of the Church, however.

It would be bad for Flamekeep, and Thrane at large, and as Stone Dog says, it could turn Thrane into a realm of persecution, tyranny and dread.

But the loss of faith? No, except to those who were not very firm in it to begin with. Except from the Ghost Guardian orcs Stone Dog mentions, there are the Shulakassar, and a large number of Serpent Cults who never heard of any physical manifestation of the Flame and yet venerated the force the Church now calls "Silver Flame".

But many would fuel their faith with anger, and you could see a good number of people believing they could be the new Tira Miron. Adversity breads courage as much as despair, especially if you start out with a strong enough belief to create miracles (i.e. cast spells).

Melysse Miron, and the Fiend in the Flame, could, if you want to keep that element, create a special ritual that prevents any faith-based casting in the city, though. An eldritch machine would work as well. The Fiend is powerful enough that this could be conceivable. It could even make an exception for Whispering Flame members and other demon-worshippers, but this would have to be a separate thing from the disappearance of the Flame. And if this ritual/machine makes the powers disappear, that's what would cause a lot of lost faith and self-doubt, and get to the point where you don't even need it anymore.
Edymnion
07-08-07, 12:37 PM That could make a fun campaign arc, actually.
The demon successfully corrupts the Silver Flame, party fights through all the minions of mordor... I mean corrupted Thrane, and give the cleric/paladin of the party the honor of being "The one small light in the darkness" that re-purifies the flame through their own unwavering faith.
Warforged Goblin
07-09-07, 07:24 AM Excellent ideas. Thank you guys/girls very much. It's definately gonna be an eldritch machine/ritual that temporarily shuts off the clerics and paladins of Flamekeep. The demon is gonna stay bound and the silver flame will turn a nice shade of... well... some color fitting the demon inside. Once again, thank yunz very much for the help.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Warforged Goblin 07-05-07, 02:12 PM	Quick little breakdown/background for the character in question: Harkanon Etelberk, Human warblade - Born Karrnathi, family moved to Thranish territory when he was very young, calls himself a paladin of the Silver Flame despite not actually being one (I use the paladin PrC from Unearthed Arcana), kicked out and (unknown to him) actively hunted by the Flame because "he is destined to unleash a great and terrible evil", and married to Kellry, the shifter barbarian (Wife IRL, think Wash and Zoe from "Firefly"). Now, long story short, the demon bound within the Flame (whoever it may be) is subtely directing the young "paladin" to release his chosen I can't remember her name Mirron from the Stone Ward in Dreadhold. After doing so, betrayal's shall be revealed after she whisks away to Flamekeep to beat the underage-snot outta the current Keeper and somehow "shutting off" the Silver Flame. Of course, since the paladins and clerics can't access any of their powers, the only one who can save the day is the paladin who isn't. Now, I realize that completely cutting off the source of divine energy would have massive in-game ramifications, so I'm thinking of limiting it to only just the city of Flamekeep. Has anyone ever done anything like this before and if so, how did it turn out? Thanx in advance.
stone_dog 07-07-07, 03:37 PM	Even if the character can take out an entire temple of guards, clerics and an 18th level hierophant as well as put out a fire spread throughout the world fed by the souls of thousands of coatls it will do nothing to "cut off" divine powers. The Flame is only the focus point of faith, not the source of it. No cleric who holds true to his faith will lose a drop of power. In Eberron, gods don't grant spells.
Warforged Goblin 07-07-07, 07:35 PM	Even if the character can take out an entire temple of guards, clerics and an 18th level hierophant as well as put out a fire spread throughout the world fed by the souls of thousands of coatls it will do nothing to "cut off" divine powers. The Flame is only the focus point of faith, not the source of it. No cleric who holds true to his faith will lose a drop of power. In Eberron, gods don't grant spells. The character wouldn't be the one taking out the Flame, the NPC that he unleashed would. In case you're wondering, the NPC that I'm talking about is Melysse Miron, the chosen of the Shadow of the Flame. I realize that the "gods" don't power Eberronian clerics and that faith is the "real" power behind a cleric, but what if that faith is shaken? What if a cleric of the Silver Flame watches the susposed font of his power gets *****-slapped by a near-demonic powerhouse? That's what I want to know. I intend to have the current Keeper get slapped around quite a bit and possibly have the Silver Flame just go out due to the demon bound within gaining more power on the outside, as represented by the fight between the two Chosen. Does that make any sense, or am I talking out my ass?
stone_dog 07-08-07, 02:09 AM	You might be talking out your ass just a little, yeah. This kind of apocalyptical vision is probably outside the scope of one NPC. Flamekeep isn't even the source of the Silver Flame, just the point where it connects to the surface most obviously. There are orcs on the borders of the Demon Wastes who have worshiped the Flame for generations without even hearing about the Church as a whole. More likely, the whispers would slowly turn more potent and the tenents of the Church would slowly take on a darker tone as the demon became more powerful. Thrane would slip into tyranny and become more like Karnnath in many negative ways. If the flame goes out though, yes, people who witness this event may well lose their faith. People who hear may lose their faith when they see some sort of proof. What won't happen is clerics and paladins having their powers instantly winking out of existance all over the world. Thing is, I don't think the demon in the flame WANTS the Flame to go out. It wants to take control of the flame and turn it back to Crimson the way it used to be (or the way it remembers). You may well be turning Thrane into Mordor and making them one of the villains of the setting, but I think there would still be lots of Clerics who believe the Flame could never be put out and will return again. Question, do the PCs have a chance of realizing their mistakes and stopping this terrible fate?
Syltorian 07-08-07, 07:24 AM	I agree with Stone Dog here. None of the faithful believe that the physical Silver Flame in Flamekeep Cathedral is the source of power for the clerics and paladins. Some might lose their faith, or at least have it shaken enough by the bad omen that the disappearance of the little fire would be, but many others will simply turn to fanaticism. Besides, as Stone Dog also says, the Demon in the Flame does not want the Flame to disappear. It could, however, stop being silver. My best guess is that Melysse Miron's actions, if she beats the Keeper, would cause the Flame to turn dark again, as it did before Tira Miron charged in and bound the demon again. That'd be more consistent with canon, and perhaps even a worse sign than the Flame, disappearing. After all, the Flame is not a manifestation of the Silver Flame. It's a manifestation of the Fiend in the Flame turned silver by Tira's actions. If it disappears, some might conclude that it finally destroyed the fiend! With that said, the return of Melysse Miron, the Flame turning dark again has potential. Jaela Daran is definitely going to lose about 15 levels of cleric, which would shake the structure of the Flame up quite a lot. Most of the High Cardinals would probably die. It won't change much to the faith of Flamekeep, but it would destroy the entire structure and prevent any coordinated response. It will leave in charge the few already corrupted members of the Church, however. It would be bad for Flamekeep, and Thrane at large, and as Stone Dog says, it could turn Thrane into a realm of persecution, tyranny and dread. But the loss of faith? No, except to those who were not very firm in it to begin with. Except from the Ghost Guardian orcs Stone Dog mentions, there are the Shulakassar, and a large number of Serpent Cults who never heard of any physical manifestation of the Flame and yet venerated the force the Church now calls "Silver Flame". But many would fuel their faith with anger, and you could see a good number of people believing they could be the new Tira Miron. Adversity breads courage as much as despair, especially if you start out with a strong enough belief to create miracles (i.e. cast spells). Melysse Miron, and the Fiend in the Flame, could, if you want to keep that element, create a special ritual that prevents any faith-based casting in the city, though. An eldritch machine would work as well. The Fiend is powerful enough that this could be conceivable. It could even make an exception for Whispering Flame members and other demon-worshippers, but this would have to be a separate thing from the disappearance of the Flame. And if this ritual/machine makes the powers disappear, that's what would cause a lot of lost faith and self-doubt, and get to the point where you don't even need it anymore.
Edymnion 07-08-07, 12:37 PM	That could make a fun campaign arc, actually. The demon successfully corrupts the Silver Flame, party fights through all the minions of mordor... I mean corrupted Thrane, and give the cleric/paladin of the party the honor of being "The one small light in the darkness" that re-purifies the flame through their own unwavering faith.
Warforged Goblin 07-09-07, 07:24 AM	Excellent ideas. Thank you guys/girls very much. It's definately gonna be an eldritch machine/ritual that temporarily shuts off the clerics and paladins of Flamekeep. The demon is gonna stay bound and the silver flame will turn a nice shade of... well... some color fitting the demon inside. Once again, thank yunz very much for the help.