Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Robot 04-12-07, 07:14 PM	After a discussion about adding more airships to Eberron by giving two or three of the 5 Nations their own fleets, my friend who is taking the reigns for our campaign while I deal with school stuff suggested bringing The Rocketeer into Eberron. My first thought was a breastplate with an eternal Fly spell stuck on it, controlled by a command word most likely. But, why not a bound Elemental...the creation of an adventure loving Zil Artificer perhapes? Reading up on binding Elementals, the process won't be hard to work out, nor will the cost, since as far as I can tell binding an Elemental is free, provided you know the correct spells and have the correct feats (this campaign is picking up at level 9.) Obviously it would be faster and more nimble than an airship. The Fly spell provides good manuverability and a speed of 60ft. I suppose I could just go with that, however, a small Elemental bound to an item like a breastplate seems like it should be faster than that if it's only carrying a small or medium character. Maybe 75 feet (good) for a small or medium character and 50 feet (good) for a large? Obviously this particular breastplate would be made for my Zil gnome, so it'd be small... Any thoughts on this? Where is there information about the cost for bound elemental armor or items? It tells you how to make them in MoE, but none are listed in the Goods and Services section of the book...
Edymnion 04-12-07, 07:25 PM	Just out of curiosity, why not use the existing flight items? Wings of Flying, Boots of Flying, etc?
korcheck 04-12-07, 07:42 PM	Just out of curiosity, why not use the existing flight items? Wings of Flying, Boots of Flying, etc? Answer: flavor text. those items are old staples true, but a bound elemental in a backpack is just so much more fun.
Creature_Mastermind 04-12-07, 08:29 PM	try looking at EH (explorers handbook) pages 25-27 maybe these will help you. I also found in ECS pages 265 and 266 have Elemental armor and weapons.
Breeder 04-12-07, 09:36 PM	I'ld rather have some sort of wonderous item like the firesled.
The_Robot 04-12-07, 10:28 PM	Answer: flavor text. those items are old staples true, but a bound elemental in a backpack is just so much more fun. Exactly! try looking at EH (explorers handbook) pages 25-27 maybe these will help you. I also found in ECS pages 265 and 266 have Elemental armor and weapons. Will do, I may have been a bit hasty in posting this...all my books are at our gaming place (aka: the coffeeshop i work volunteer at.)
AntiSean 04-13-07, 10:04 AM	Answer: flavor text. those items are old staples true, but a bound elemental in a backpack is just so much more fun. That's fine from a player/DM perspective in the context of a game; to piggyback off of Edymnion's question, though, why would someone *within the setting* seek to develop an elemental powered backpack when there are pre-existing items that provide the same effect. They'd be reinventing the wheel in some ways, when they could be researching items that would provide benefits/effects that haven't been produced yet.
korcheck 04-13-07, 11:44 AM	That's fine from a player/DM perspective in the context of a game; to piggyback off of Edymnion's question, though, why would someone *within the setting* seek to develop an elemental powered backpack when there are pre-existing items that provide the same effect. They'd be reinventing the wheel in some ways, when they could be researching items that would provide benefits/effects that haven't been produced yet. Here's how I see it, Lets say the guy doesn't have the needed requirements i.e. feats to make those items but can bind the heck out of an elemental. (Though I may be wrong by the rules I don't know, don't have the books w/me.) Heres another thought, cost, what if he can do it cheaper his way? And another, going by you're thought think about this, if our world had been fine with and settled on just this line of thought then there would be only 4 or 5 car companies if that after all every car does the same thing so why do we need more choises? answer: because we are human and a need for vast variety is in our blood. Or would you be content with the same meal everyday for the rest of your life. Ok last thought, drawn from the conclusion of the previous statements, in any industry, any business if you wish to thrive and surpass your competiters you need to stand out and be better or at least different enough to be interesting or you won't last long.
AntiSean 04-13-07, 12:10 PM	Here's how I see it, Lets say the guy doesn't have the needed requirements i.e. feats to make those items but can bind the heck out of an elemental. (Though I may be wrong by the rules I don't know, don't have the books w/me.) Heres another thought, cost, what if he can do it cheaper his way? Those two reasons work pretty well for me, especially cost-effectiveness. I'd probably be a jerk and make the player invest heavy sums of money in research, since this is a pretty uncharted path of item creation being followed, making them spend more money in the end. Such is the price of innovation! :) And another, going by you're thought think about this, if our world had been fine with and settled on just this line of thought then there would be only 4 or 5 car companies if that after all every car does the same thing so why do we need more choises? This is where your analogy stops working for me, though. As far as cars go, the internal combustion engine was settled on and standardized around fairly quickly. While there are continuing structural, saftey and cosmetic enhancements made over time, the same basic principles are there; Ford and GM don't use radically different systems of manufacturing to produce their cars, nor are the end results very different. Likewise, a pair of winged boots made by the archmage Ni'ike would function identically in game terms to a pair crafted by Rhea Bokk the artificer; they might have some cosmetic differences, though.
goblin_pride 04-13-07, 12:23 PM	Likewise, a pair of winged boots made by the archmage Ni'ike would function identically in game terms to a pair crafted by Rhea Bokk the artificer; they might have some cosmetic differences, though. And for flavor, a flight vest or whatever you'd want to call it, could be very useful in the constuction of airships. An elemental binder could spend his time apprenticed to a more experienced binder making vests for the builders to use in the yards before being tasked with the binding of a ship's elemental. Those same vests could also find their way onto some of the ships for a bit of extra cost for the crews to use when making hull repairs "at sea". A vest or whatever would be far cheaper as a learning tool for lesser-skilled binders and cost far less than the ships that would have to be scrapped if their skills weren't so good.
AntiSean 04-13-07, 12:35 PM	And for flavor, a flight vest or whatever you'd want to call it, could be very useful in the constuction of airships. An elemental binder could spend his time apprenticed to a more experienced binder making vests for the builders to use in the yards before being tasked with the binding of a ship's elemental. Those same vests could also find their way onto some of the ships for a bit of extra cost for the crews to use when making hull repairs "at sea". A vest or whatever would be far cheaper as a learning tool for lesser-skilled binders and cost far less than the ships that would have to be scrapped if their skills weren't so good. Grrr... old age must be making me into even more of a cheapskate, because my immediate thought was that vests with levitation enchantments could be cheaper, and just as effective. I'm going to start clipping coupons out of the Sunday paper before I know it...
goblin_pride 04-13-07, 12:50 PM	Grrr... old age must be making me into even more of a cheapskate, because my immediate thought was that vests with levitation enchantments could be cheaper, and just as effective. I'm going to start clipping coupons out of the Sunday paper before I know it... Don't worry, it gets far worse than that, whippersnapper.
korcheck 04-13-07, 04:30 PM	This is where your analogy stops working for me, though. As far as cars go, the internal combustion engine was settled on and standardized around fairly quickly. While there are continuing structural, saftey and cosmetic enhancements made over time, the same basic principles are there; Ford and GM don't use radically different systems of manufacturing to produce their cars, nor are the end results very different. Likewise, a pair of winged boots made by the archmage Ni'ike would function identically in game terms to a pair crafted by Rhea Bokk the artificer; they might have some cosmetic differences, though. Ok I see where you're coming from. The analogy may not work but the principle's the same, without constant improvement a business, an industry heck even a society will stagnate and choke itself into obscurity. If we're happy with what we have then we fall behind. If this weren't true we would still be throwing rocks and relying on nature to sow the seeds. And just how old are you 2 anyway you can't be much older than I am.
korcheck 04-13-07, 04:31 PM	Note to self: add antisean to list of favorite posters. :D
goblin_pride 04-13-07, 04:57 PM	And just how old are you 2 anyway you can't be much older than I am. They have this spot on the User Profile that's put there to answer questions like that.
korcheck 04-13-07, 05:18 PM	They have this spot on the User Profile that's put there to answer questions like that. :bow: I bow to your superior intelect.....
goblin_pride 04-13-07, 06:45 PM	:bow: I bow to your superior intelect..... *doing my best Elvis impersonation* Thank you, thank you very much.
AntiSean 04-13-07, 07:37 PM	They have this spot on the User Profile that's put there to answer questions like that. I don't think I've bothered to fill that out, though; I've been too busy yelling at kids to get off my damn lawn.
goblin_pride 04-13-07, 07:56 PM	I don't think I've bothered to fill that out, though; I've been too busy yelling at kids to get off my damn lawn. You did. June 8, 1975.
Creature_Mastermind 04-13-07, 11:11 PM	You did. June 8, 1975. What does this have to do with anything please tell me. never mind i see.
goblin_pride 04-13-07, 11:16 PM	What does this have to do with anything please tell me. never mind i see. The trick to any good threadjacking is to leave a few really good clues along the way. Nobody will know you pulled it off otherwise.
Edymnion 04-14-07, 10:32 PM	Okay, I had this whole thing typed up, and then realized that despite everything I just said, I could negate it all in one sentence. So, instead of wasting all that effort, I'll leave it up here in the sblock for anyone that wants to read it, and then get on to the realization I had at the end that changed my mind.why would someone *within the setting* seek to develop an elemental powered backpack when there are pre-existing items that provide the same effect. They'd be reinventing the wheel in some ways, when they could be researching items that would provide benefits/effects that haven't been produced yet.Thank you, I didn't want to look like I was badgering the guy, but thats exactly what I was thinking. Its a bad case of "I want cool high-tech gadget X in D&D". Its not "I want something that allows me to do X and Y", its "I want a specific X". Its a lot like the lightsaber thread. They're not really interested in how to make something that works like a lightsaber, they want to literally recreate every last little high tech detail essentially with magitech. They're not interested in having a sword that cuts through anything, they specifically want some kind of permanent dissentigrate spell in the shape of a pole that glows and goes up and down out of the handle. Its basically the same thing that I thought when I saw this. Not so much of "I wanna play a rocketeer like character" but "How can I use magic to create a high tech rocket pack just like the one in the movie?" Here's how I see it, Lets say the guy doesn't have the needed requirements i.e. feats to make those items but can bind the heck out of an elemental. (Though I may be wrong by the rules I don't know, don't have the books w/me.)The prereqs on elemental binding are pretty much such that anyone who can do it could make normal items far easier.Heres another thought, cost, what if he can do it cheaper his way?I don't believe I've seen any elementally bound items that didn't cost tens of thousands of gold more than equivolent non-elementally bound items. Combine that with how extremely rare it is to even find somebody that can bind elementals in the first place (basically, nobody but the gnomes can even make a useful elementally bound item in the first place), I think it goes back to the previous "anybody that has access to what it takes to do this would be able to get the same effects faster, cheaper, and easier with conventional means". And another, going by you're thought think about this, if our world had been fine with and settled on just this line of thought then there would be only 4 or 5 car companies if that after all every car does the same thing so why do we need more choises? answer: because we are human and a need for vast variety is in our blood.Except that, in reality, there is really only a half dozen or so kinds of cars. Heavy Trucks, Light Trucks, SUVs, Sedans, Coups, Vans... and as far as normal cars go, thats pretty much it. Everything else boils down to nothing but cosmetic changes. Ok last thought, drawn from the conclusion of the previous statements, in any industry, any business if you wish to thrive and surpass your competiters you need to stand out and be better or at least different enough to be interesting or you won't last long.To stick with the automobile example, the cars on the road today are not fundamentally differant from the model T that Ford put out. They've got more extras, but the basic layout and principles that make them go are the same. The layout of the automobile is basically the same as the horse drawn carriage that came before it (4 wheels on a rectangular chasi with the driver in the front and passangers/cargo in the back), only replacing the horse with an internal combustion engine. Necessity is the mother of invention. New things only really get made when there is a new need for them. As long as there is something that sufficiently fills the need, humanity will keep using it. We only come up with something totally new when we absolutely have to, and even then we rarely come up with anything "new", we just find new ways to combine things we already have to improve on the efficiency of what we already have. I mean, lets look at one of the oldest problems humanity has ever had, and then lets look at all the ways we've come up with to overcome it. Getting from a low place to a high place. We've got ramps, steps, ladders, a rope, escalators, and elevators. Steps and ramps are literally older than humanity itself (natural formations that serve as steps, and the natural slope), and have not changed one iota since the dawn of human construction. Escalators are simply motorized stairs. Ropes and ladders serve for where there isn't room for stairs, and the elevator is just a motorized version of the old rope and pully lifts that have been around since ancient Sumeria. We've had 10,000 years of the greatest minds humanity has to offer, and we still haven't come up with anything better than a staircase? Humanity as a whole is *LAZY*. As a general rule, we don't bother to try and find entirely new ways to solve problems that we already have working fixes for. Even when somebody does come up with a new way, it generally doesn't get adopted until somebody makes us use it. Going back to the cars, Henry Ford sold electric versions of the Model T, but gasoline was abundant, cheap, and more efficient, so the electric car died out for nearly a century. When did it make a comeback? When we are currently facing the end of the gasoline supply. The technology was there, it lied dormant for decades, and it wasn't until a new need specifically arose that anyone really bothered to look at it again. Believe me, the vast majority of inventions are evolutionary, not revolutionary. They are simply slightly better versions of the same thing we've always used.But you know what? Screw that. Jet packs will never become real world every day items like they are in movies. They're simply too complicated, too dangerous, too hard to use, and everything else. But still we dream of them. Still we make movies about them. The Rocketeer. Boba Fett. Flash Gordan. The jet pack is as much a symbol of retro pulp as the rocket shaped space ship and the hero hanging off a cliff, and that is the kind of thing that this setting was based on. So, I'm officially changing my tune. Go for it. Stolen elementally bound rocket pack, knock yourself out and have fun with it. Its pure pulp, and thats as Eberron as it gets. Just, if you'd allow me sort of go back into my rant there to pick something out, don't try to copy the image of the pack directly. Take what the setting has to offer, and synthesize it with what you want. We know that airships are kept in the air by the elemental bound to the ring around them. Do that on a smaller scale. Its not a jet pack, its an airship pack. Its a breastplate with a miniature ring going around your torso like a hoola-hoop that bursts into flames and sends you soaring into the sky, just like an airship. Be evolutionary, not revolutionary. It makes the medicine go down a little easier.
Breeder 04-14-07, 11:14 PM	I think the elemental ring would look better behind the character than around them. In the case of a fire elemental, it would keep you from burning your hands all the time. Also, if we do have an elemental ring, it would probably be small to medium in size it's self. I'ld have you take up space 5' by 10'. Seems like they could also be used as a weapon in the case of fire. Shall we go with 1d4 or 1d6 damage?
korcheck 04-15-07, 12:58 AM	Edy all of your hidden ranting may well be viable except one small thing why did we invent the car? At the time we didn't need it we had horses that had served us well for a very long time. The cost of the things was astounding and they were very inefficeint the same thing goes for planes but because we did pusue such assanine logic they are mainstream today. What my thought process was in my rant was an attempt (possibly a poor one) to give a real world answer to the question but for me just as my original post said and that you agreed with after a fashion is/was: it's all about the flavor text it looks and sounds cool therefor it must be. Your comment about it being pulp was where my line of thinking was going as well.
Edymnion 04-15-07, 12:18 PM	Edy all of your hidden ranting may well be viable except one small thing why did we invent the car? At the time we didn't need it we had horses that had served us well for a very long time. The cost of the things was astounding and they were very inefficeint the same thing goes for planes but because we did pusue such assanine logic they are mainstream today.I didn't say we were incapable of new and creative thought, just that we were not PRONE to it. Unlike what many people think, Henry Ford did not invent the automobile, they had been around for nearly a century before that. What Henry Ford did was make building them cost efficient so that they could be sold to the masses. He just improved on what was already there. The airplane is probably the single most truely inventive thing mankind has created in centuries.
Salathiel 04-15-07, 12:49 PM	Hmm... Just a thought here: Who are you going to get to fly this contraption? IIRC, all bound elemental vehicles require a dragonmarked pilot in order to operate correctly. This applies to the majestic lightning rail coaches operated by House Orien, as well as those ungainly, wasteful and ugly "floating rowboats" that Lyrander has. Umm... Sorry if a little bit of personal bias crept in there. Heh. Anyway, if we assume that the design of the jetpack will be based along the same principles as an airship, does that mean that it can only be flown by a Lyrander heir?
Edymnion 04-15-07, 01:55 PM	Anyway, if we assume that the design of the jetpack will be based along the same principles as an airship, does that mean that it can only be flown by a Lyrander heir?Not true, anyone can command the bound elemental through a successful Charisma check. Dragonmarked characters simply get to forgo the check and automatically succeed.
Creature_Mastermind 04-15-07, 02:23 PM	Anyway, if we assume that the design of the jetpack will be based along the same principles as an airship, does that mean that it can only be flown by a Lyrander heir? If I were a DM with this choice i would make it either a CHA check or anyone could use it (guessing they were smart enough to use it I can just imagine a goblin burning himself or another).
goblin_pride 04-15-07, 03:28 PM	(guessing they were smart enough to use it I can just imagine a goblin burning himself or another). How do you know that wasn't the original plan? We don't call them "rocketmen" for nothing.
korcheck 04-15-07, 03:48 PM	I didn't say we were incapable of new and creative thought, just that we were not PRONE to it. Unlike what many people think, Henry Ford did not invent the automobile, they had been around for nearly a century before that. What Henry Ford did was make building them cost efficient so that they could be sold to the masses. He just improved on what was already there. The airplane is probably the single most truely inventive thing mankind has created in centuries. Ok I think I'm done arguing semantics. Yuo agreed with me in the end and thats all that matters I suppose. I too have studied history both in school with its muddled and biased views and on my own. I think what is happening here is that we are seeing and thinking the same thing but coming up either with two different views or the same one from opposite ends I can't decide which. As for that last sentence I think it was followed closely behind with the POPULARIZATION of the parachute.
goblin_pride 04-15-07, 03:59 PM	As for that last sentence I think it was followed closely behind with the parachute. Nope. The parachute was Da Vinci. And believe it or not, his design does work, wooden frame and all.
korcheck 04-15-07, 06:31 PM	Nope. The parachute was Da Vinci. And believe it or not, his design does work, wooden frame and all. Fixed :D
Edymnion 04-15-07, 06:41 PM	Fixed :DUh, you do realize that to say that, you actually have to CHANGE what they said, right? Far as I can tell, what you quoted is identical to what he typed. What did you "fix"?
korcheck 04-15-07, 07:02 PM	No look again Edy it's in bold letters and has been underlined you can't miss it I am refering to a fix of my post that he addressed
Edymnion 04-15-07, 08:42 PM	No look again Edy it's in bold letters and has been underlined you can't miss it I am refering to a fix of my post that he addressedOh, okay, you mean to YOUR post. Usually when you see someone making that kind of post, they have altered the text in the post to make it say something else.
Ubermog 04-15-07, 10:26 PM	I'll probably regret this, but it seemed so appropriate for the way the thread is going. "If man can go to the moon, why are umbrellas still umbrellas?" ~Sai, Hikaru no Go
ORC_Paradox 04-15-07, 10:47 PM	Is it really a good idea to have an angry elemental strapped to your back?
Ubermog 04-15-07, 11:31 PM	Is it really a good idea to have an angry elemental strapped to your back? Only if it's bigger than you...:)
goblin_pride 04-16-07, 03:01 AM	Is it really a good idea to have an angry elemental strapped to your back? I hadn't even thought about it until someone brought it up. Now all I can picture is a goblin screaming "For my people" just before flying headlong into an airship in a blaze of flaming glory. At that point it's not strapped to your back anymore, but it's still kinda angry.
Marcus Majarra 04-16-07, 04:33 AM	Is it really a good idea to have an angry elemental strapped to your back? That's what the Power of Purity is there for. To negotiate with your jet-pack.
Ubermog 04-16-07, 04:43 AM	That's what the Power of Purity is there for. To negotiate with your jet-pack. I can just see it now: "I know you're upset, Mr. Fire Elemental sir, but we are directly above the ocean..."
Moblin 04-16-07, 10:09 AM	Is it really a good idea to have an angry elemental strapped to your back? About as good an idea as planning on using a dragon hoard as a retirement plan :D
snakebliskan 04-16-07, 05:16 PM	That's fine from a player/DM perspective in the context of a game; to piggyback off of Edymnion's question, though, why would someone *within the setting* seek to develop an elemental powered backpack when there are pre-existing items that provide the same effect. They'd be reinventing the wheel in some ways, when they could be researching items that would provide benefits/effects that haven't been produced yet. Here is a possible answer a flying device only usable by a Lyrander mark holder ... maybe as an escape device for air ships or worse a new house strike team used to retreave lost items like a pirated airship..
korcheck 04-16-07, 05:32 PM	Here is a possible answer a flying device only usable by a Lyrander mark holder ... maybe as an escape device for air ships or worse a new house strike team used to retreave lost items like a pirated airship.. Man I love this idea!!!! Oh, okay, you mean to YOUR post. Usually when you see someone making that kind of post, they have altered the text in the post to make it say something else. Oh ok I'll remember that in the future thanks for pointing it out.
seedjar 04-18-07, 10:59 PM	This sounds fun. Thematic considerations aside, why make it mimic a fly spell? Seems to me, if you want it to be The Rocketeer, you should have something like fly 200 (poor), and make a DC 25 Balance, Tumble or unassisted Dexterity check to hover or reverse directions. Also, grant some appropriate flight manuevers, such as Power Dive and Power Climb, and if you choose to use a Fire elemental, there should be some rules for igniting flammable materials with the exposed flames. ~Joe