christianity in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

christianity in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DwarfPcfan
05-14-07, 04:08 PM This might sound crazy but on page 6 of "Faiths of Eberron", you have a picture of an opened book right over a darkened Library

But look at the drawing in the botom corner of right page of the book, Is that medieval christian cross?:detect: :detect:

or is it just me, being the christian lore buff going crazy.

Let's clarify that point and give or honest opinion on the subject...
JulesCARV
05-14-07, 04:15 PM http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/foe_gallery/99920.jpg

I think that it's an map/blueprint of some sort of temple or church, personally.
Fabius Maximus
05-14-07, 05:23 PM Since catholic churches are usually laid out as crosses, both of you are right.

But I doubt it was intentional.
Alex_
05-14-07, 05:37 PM This might sound crazy but on page 6 of "Faiths of Eberron", you have a picture of an opened book right over a darkened Library

But look at the drawing in the botom corner of right page of the book, Is that medieval christian cross?:detect: :detect:

or is it just me, being the christian lore buff going crazy.

Let's clarify that point and give or honest opinion on the subject...

Although it does have a somewhat similar shape, what with being mostly vertically oriented with a pair of lateral extensions. The main differences is that it has another pair of extensions at the top, and is wider halfway down before getting narrower.

So no. It's not a medieval Christian cross.
Just another user
05-14-07, 06:04 PM It looks like a cross, but in the same way a man with open arms look like a cross, but I think that is it.

Heck, for what we know that could be a representation of the Traveller. ;)
RogueElement
05-14-07, 06:14 PM And my keyboard has a cross on it too, gasp! This is cosmically significant! Oh wait, it's a plus sign. :D
dunkeykong
05-14-07, 07:48 PM i zoomed in real close, and I agree, it looks like Christ on the cross. Though it could be anything, the crucifix design is hardly limited to Christianity.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-14-07, 08:59 PM More darkly, it could also be someone on a rack.
Psionycx
05-14-07, 11:53 PM It pays to remember that crucifixion was actually a common punishment/torture in the ancient world and was not a one-shot act performed specifically on Christ Himself. So anytime one hears mention of or sees a depiction of crucifixion it does not automatically imply a Christian context.

Since the book is about religion it could be an image of a martyr being crucified. A lot of religious symbolism in Eberron draws real-world parallels. The entire Church of the Silver Flame is largely an analog of the Roman Catholic Church.
Yadot
05-15-07, 02:04 AM Since the book is about religion it could be an image of a martyr being crucified. A lot of religious symbolism in Eberron draws real-world parallels. The entire Church of the Silver Flame is largely an analog of the Roman Catholic Church.
I don't know, to me Faiths of Eberron painted the Silver Flame as more of a Muslim/Intitutionalized Religion conglomeration than just a Catholic Church spin.
Edymnion
05-15-07, 08:26 AM i zoomed in real close, and I agree, it looks like Christ on the cross. Though it could be anything, the crucifix design is hardly limited to Christianity.Of course, if you look closely, you see it isn't really a true cross shape but an inverted terraced triangle with someone standing in the middle of it with outstretched arms, and a bit extra behind their head.

It could just as easily, IMO, be a stylized image of Tira Minon (I know I misspelled the last name) inside the silver flame.
Pinky's brain
05-15-07, 10:01 AM Seeing as the left page has a big old monster I would guess the right page has a monster as well ... and the runic guardian takes that exact pose in the MM2.
The Ubbergeek
05-15-07, 02:14 PM It pays to remember that crucifixion was actually a common punishment/torture in the ancient world and was not a one-shot act performed specifically on Christ Himself. So anytime one hears mention of or sees a depiction of crucifixion it does not automatically imply a Christian context.

Fact, even in ancient Japan....
dunkeykong
05-15-07, 05:31 PM Of course, if you look closely, you see it isn't really a true cross shape but an inverted terraced triangle with someone standing in the middle of it with outstretched arms, and a bit extra behind their head.

It could just as easily, IMO, be a stylized image of Tira Minon (I know I misspelled the last name) inside the silver flame.

true, all you guys are correct. The cross is not purely christian and with the quality of the image it could be damn near anything.
Moosh Nailo
05-15-07, 05:43 PM Necropolitan, anyone? More specifically, the ritual required to create one.

And I'd count out christianity on the count that it's not like any christian cross I've ever seen. The extra rectangle bits in the "armpits" of the cross.

Could just be the artist trying to make the scene more churchy, and that's what he thought of. Drew a cross, then fiddled with it.
RogueElement
05-15-07, 08:11 PM It's NOT a streetlight!

http://www.neatorama.com/2007/02/26/fark-streetlight

http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=2618004
Psionycx
05-15-07, 08:49 PM I don't know, to me Faiths of Eberron painted the Silver Flame as more of a Muslim/Intitutionalized Religion conglomeration than just a Catholic Church spin.

I would disagree simply in that Islam is a decentralized religion that doesn't actually possess a true hierarchical clergy.

The Church of the Silver Flame has a formal hierarchy that even uses titles analogous to those in Catholicism (bishop, archbishop, cardinal, etc.). The Church reveres a savior (Tira Miron) who sacrificed herself for the good of the people and underwent a kind of divine ascension. It follows a pontiff (the Keeper of the Flame) who is supposed to be in especially close communion with, and able to make divinely-inspired pronouncements on behalf of, the deity. It acts as the government in the region in which it is headquartered (as the Vatican did in Italy at several points in history).

Hmmmm...thinking about it the Christian symbolism may not be so accidental. Although obviously it's not actual Christianity, simply a parallel meant to break away from the usual pantheism found in the D&D game.
Yadot
05-15-07, 09:05 PM What I meant by Muslim overtones was that the masses of the church seemed more like an Islamic service than a Catholic sermon.
Psionycx
05-15-07, 10:07 PM What I meant by Muslim overtones was that the masses of the church seemed more like an Islamic service than a Catholic sermon.

How so?
Edymnion
05-16-07, 01:04 PM How so?The whole "reciting the miracles of the flame" didn't strike you as being extremely similiar to reciting the pillars of islam? Its been a while now, but wasn't there a bit about bowing down while facing towards Mecca... I mean Flamekeep?
JulesCARV
05-16-07, 01:08 PM I'd say just have the Silver Flame be a pastiche of original elements plus whatever bits of real religions you want to toss in. Toss in a bit of Islam, but don't make it too Islamic. Toss in a bit of Catholicism, but don't make it too Catholic, etc. Obviously, some RL religions are more appropriate than others -- Catholicism and Islam work better as a source for real life Silver Flame elements than, say, ancient Greek polytheism (that's more a Sovereign Host/Dark Six thing).
Psionycx
05-16-07, 02:17 PM The whole "reciting the miracles of the flame" didn't strike you as being extremely similiar to reciting the pillars of islam? Its been a while now, but wasn't there a bit about bowing down while facing towards Mecca... I mean Flamekeep?

Actually, it struck me as being rather like reciting the Nicene Creed.
Alex_
05-16-07, 05:08 PM I would disagree simply in that Islam is a decentralized religion that doesn't actually possess a true hierarchical clergy.

The Church of the Silver Flame has a formal hierarchy that even uses titles analogous to those in Catholicism (bishop, archbishop, cardinal, etc.).
[quote]

I would think that terminology was used more for familiarity and convenience. They could have used terms like Kohen, Rabbi, the Hazzan, and Mohels to describe the heirarchy (amongst others). However, just like it's easier to say Governor or Duke than Sultan or Emir, it's easier to go with Catholic terminology when describing the Silver Flame.

[quote]
The Church reveres a savior (Tira Miron) who sacrificed herself for the good of the people and underwent a kind of divine ascension.

Martyrdom or self-sacrifice with the reward of divine ascension, and an individual who did such a thing is a fairly common theme in all the major faiths.

It follows a pontiff (the Keeper of the Flame) who is supposed to be in especially close communion with, and able to make divinely-inspired pronouncements on behalf of, the deity.

The Keeper of the Flame is more like the Dali Lama than the Pope. The Keeper can be anyone at any time: they simply have to be chosen by the Flame, as opposed to being elected. Once chosen, they can't make any kind of pronouncements, and

It acts as the government in the region in which it is headquartered (as the Vatican did in Italy at several points in history).

As did Tibetan Buddhism, Hinduism, the Egyptian belief system, etc etc.

........................................ ........................................ ..

Not saying there's no relationship between the Silver Flame and Roman Catholicisms. However, the more striking similarities seem to stem more from terminology and the fact that the setting is more western, and these are the things most observers will readily identify with.
martik87
05-16-07, 05:52 PM Actually, I believe that picture is fairly reminiscent of the Franciscan Cross in the Roman Catholic Church. Here's an example:
http://www.sanctuaryofhope.org/soh/images/sabbatical/assisi/SanDam3.gif

I could be wrong, but that looks quite similar to me.
Alex_
05-16-07, 06:12 PM Actually, I believe that picture is fairly reminiscent of the Franciscan Cross in the Roman Catholic Church. Here's an example:
http://www.sanctuaryofhope.org/soh/images/sabbatical/assisi/SanDam3.gif

I could be wrong, but that looks quite similar to me.

Well I'll be darned. Looks like we have a match.
Psionycx
05-16-07, 07:15 PM And we're back to the Catholic symbolism!

Seriously, if they had intended for us to have mullahs, muftis and caliphs then we they would have used those names. They didn't. The opted to go for heavy resemblence to Medieval Catholicism.

Of course Catholicism shares characteristics with other religions. Most religions, especially after centuries of ever greater interaction, have come to adopt some similar traits.
mhacdebhandia
05-16-07, 08:38 PM I think it's unnecessary to draw parallels between the Church of the Silver Flame and any specific, real-world religion.

Of course, there are elements of the Roman Catholic church - crusades, seminaries, separate orders of the clergy, cardinals, a single leader of the worldly church, a saviour-figure who is conceived of as the true head of the church, the development of the faith from an older religion with which the saviour-figure was connected.

On the other hand, the orientation of all churches towards Flamekeep, the absence of seats for worshippers, and perhaps the Order of the Radiant Flame (which could be inspired by the Sufis) suggest a connection to Islam.

Likewise, the process by which each Keeper of the Flame is identified, and the fact that even a young child might become the new Keeper, reminds me of the way the reincarnations of the Dalai and Panchen Lamas are identified in Tibetan Buddhism.

I think it's a mistake to treat the Church of the Silver Flame as a fantasy stand-in for any of these religions. Give the church its own identity, I say. It's similar in some respects to religions with which we're familiar, but that doesn't mean that we can extrapolate further details of the fictional faith from our knowledge of the real faiths.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DwarfPcfan 05-14-07, 04:08 PM	This might sound crazy but on page 6 of "Faiths of Eberron", you have a picture of an opened book right over a darkened Library But look at the drawing in the botom corner of right page of the book, Is that medieval christian cross?:detect: :detect: or is it just me, being the christian lore buff going crazy. Let's clarify that point and give or honest opinion on the subject...
JulesCARV 05-14-07, 04:15 PM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/foe_gallery/99920.jpg I think that it's an map/blueprint of some sort of temple or church, personally.
Fabius Maximus 05-14-07, 05:23 PM	Since catholic churches are usually laid out as crosses, both of you are right. But I doubt it was intentional.
Alex_ 05-14-07, 05:37 PM	This might sound crazy but on page 6 of "Faiths of Eberron", you have a picture of an opened book right over a darkened Library But look at the drawing in the botom corner of right page of the book, Is that medieval christian cross?:detect: :detect: or is it just me, being the christian lore buff going crazy. Let's clarify that point and give or honest opinion on the subject... Although it does have a somewhat similar shape, what with being mostly vertically oriented with a pair of lateral extensions. The main differences is that it has another pair of extensions at the top, and is wider halfway down before getting narrower. So no. It's not a medieval Christian cross.
Just another user 05-14-07, 06:04 PM	It looks like a cross, but in the same way a man with open arms look like a cross, but I think that is it. Heck, for what we know that could be a representation of the Traveller. ;)
RogueElement 05-14-07, 06:14 PM	And my keyboard has a cross on it too, gasp! This is cosmically significant! Oh wait, it's a plus sign. :D
dunkeykong 05-14-07, 07:48 PM	i zoomed in real close, and I agree, it looks like Christ on the cross. Though it could be anything, the crucifix design is hardly limited to Christianity.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-14-07, 08:59 PM	More darkly, it could also be someone on a rack.
Psionycx 05-14-07, 11:53 PM	It pays to remember that crucifixion was actually a common punishment/torture in the ancient world and was not a one-shot act performed specifically on Christ Himself. So anytime one hears mention of or sees a depiction of crucifixion it does not automatically imply a Christian context. Since the book is about religion it could be an image of a martyr being crucified. A lot of religious symbolism in Eberron draws real-world parallels. The entire Church of the Silver Flame is largely an analog of the Roman Catholic Church.
Yadot 05-15-07, 02:04 AM	Since the book is about religion it could be an image of a martyr being crucified. A lot of religious symbolism in Eberron draws real-world parallels. The entire Church of the Silver Flame is largely an analog of the Roman Catholic Church. I don't know, to me Faiths of Eberron painted the Silver Flame as more of a Muslim/Intitutionalized Religion conglomeration than just a Catholic Church spin.
Edymnion 05-15-07, 08:26 AM	i zoomed in real close, and I agree, it looks like Christ on the cross. Though it could be anything, the crucifix design is hardly limited to Christianity.Of course, if you look closely, you see it isn't really a true cross shape but an inverted terraced triangle with someone standing in the middle of it with outstretched arms, and a bit extra behind their head. It could just as easily, IMO, be a stylized image of Tira Minon (I know I misspelled the last name) inside the silver flame.
Pinky's brain 05-15-07, 10:01 AM	Seeing as the left page has a big old monster I would guess the right page has a monster as well ... and the runic guardian takes that exact pose in the MM2.
The Ubbergeek 05-15-07, 02:14 PM	It pays to remember that crucifixion was actually a common punishment/torture in the ancient world and was not a one-shot act performed specifically on Christ Himself. So anytime one hears mention of or sees a depiction of crucifixion it does not automatically imply a Christian context. Fact, even in ancient Japan....
dunkeykong 05-15-07, 05:31 PM	Of course, if you look closely, you see it isn't really a true cross shape but an inverted terraced triangle with someone standing in the middle of it with outstretched arms, and a bit extra behind their head. It could just as easily, IMO, be a stylized image of Tira Minon (I know I misspelled the last name) inside the silver flame. true, all you guys are correct. The cross is not purely christian and with the quality of the image it could be damn near anything.
Moosh Nailo 05-15-07, 05:43 PM	Necropolitan, anyone? More specifically, the ritual required to create one. And I'd count out christianity on the count that it's not like any christian cross I've ever seen. The extra rectangle bits in the "armpits" of the cross. Could just be the artist trying to make the scene more churchy, and that's what he thought of. Drew a cross, then fiddled with it.
RogueElement 05-15-07, 08:11 PM	It's NOT a streetlight! http://www.neatorama.com/2007/02/26/fark-streetlight http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=2618004
Psionycx 05-15-07, 08:49 PM	I don't know, to me Faiths of Eberron painted the Silver Flame as more of a Muslim/Intitutionalized Religion conglomeration than just a Catholic Church spin. I would disagree simply in that Islam is a decentralized religion that doesn't actually possess a true hierarchical clergy. The Church of the Silver Flame has a formal hierarchy that even uses titles analogous to those in Catholicism (bishop, archbishop, cardinal, etc.). The Church reveres a savior (Tira Miron) who sacrificed herself for the good of the people and underwent a kind of divine ascension. It follows a pontiff (the Keeper of the Flame) who is supposed to be in especially close communion with, and able to make divinely-inspired pronouncements on behalf of, the deity. It acts as the government in the region in which it is headquartered (as the Vatican did in Italy at several points in history). Hmmmm...thinking about it the Christian symbolism may not be so accidental. Although obviously it's not actual Christianity, simply a parallel meant to break away from the usual pantheism found in the D&D game.
Yadot 05-15-07, 09:05 PM	What I meant by Muslim overtones was that the masses of the church seemed more like an Islamic service than a Catholic sermon.
Psionycx 05-15-07, 10:07 PM	What I meant by Muslim overtones was that the masses of the church seemed more like an Islamic service than a Catholic sermon. How so?
Edymnion 05-16-07, 01:04 PM	How so?The whole "reciting the miracles of the flame" didn't strike you as being extremely similiar to reciting the pillars of islam? Its been a while now, but wasn't there a bit about bowing down while facing towards Mecca... I mean Flamekeep?
JulesCARV 05-16-07, 01:08 PM	I'd say just have the Silver Flame be a pastiche of original elements plus whatever bits of real religions you want to toss in. Toss in a bit of Islam, but don't make it too Islamic. Toss in a bit of Catholicism, but don't make it too Catholic, etc. Obviously, some RL religions are more appropriate than others -- Catholicism and Islam work better as a source for real life Silver Flame elements than, say, ancient Greek polytheism (that's more a Sovereign Host/Dark Six thing).
Psionycx 05-16-07, 02:17 PM	The whole "reciting the miracles of the flame" didn't strike you as being extremely similiar to reciting the pillars of islam? Its been a while now, but wasn't there a bit about bowing down while facing towards Mecca... I mean Flamekeep? Actually, it struck me as being rather like reciting the Nicene Creed.
Alex_ 05-16-07, 05:08 PM	I would disagree simply in that Islam is a decentralized religion that doesn't actually possess a true hierarchical clergy. The Church of the Silver Flame has a formal hierarchy that even uses titles analogous to those in Catholicism (bishop, archbishop, cardinal, etc.). [quote] I would think that terminology was used more for familiarity and convenience. They could have used terms like Kohen, Rabbi, the Hazzan, and Mohels to describe the heirarchy (amongst others). However, just like it's easier to say Governor or Duke than Sultan or Emir, it's easier to go with Catholic terminology when describing the Silver Flame. [quote] The Church reveres a savior (Tira Miron) who sacrificed herself for the good of the people and underwent a kind of divine ascension. Martyrdom or self-sacrifice with the reward of divine ascension, and an individual who did such a thing is a fairly common theme in all the major faiths. It follows a pontiff (the Keeper of the Flame) who is supposed to be in especially close communion with, and able to make divinely-inspired pronouncements on behalf of, the deity. The Keeper of the Flame is more like the Dali Lama than the Pope. The Keeper can be anyone at any time: they simply have to be chosen by the Flame, as opposed to being elected. Once chosen, they can't make any kind of pronouncements, and It acts as the government in the region in which it is headquartered (as the Vatican did in Italy at several points in history). As did Tibetan Buddhism, Hinduism, the Egyptian belief system, etc etc. ........................................ ........................................ .. Not saying there's no relationship between the Silver Flame and Roman Catholicisms. However, the more striking similarities seem to stem more from terminology and the fact that the setting is more western, and these are the things most observers will readily identify with.
martik87 05-16-07, 05:52 PM	Actually, I believe that picture is fairly reminiscent of the Franciscan Cross in the Roman Catholic Church. Here's an example: http://www.sanctuaryofhope.org/soh/images/sabbatical/assisi/SanDam3.gif I could be wrong, but that looks quite similar to me.
Alex_ 05-16-07, 06:12 PM	Actually, I believe that picture is fairly reminiscent of the Franciscan Cross in the Roman Catholic Church. Here's an example: http://www.sanctuaryofhope.org/soh/images/sabbatical/assisi/SanDam3.gif I could be wrong, but that looks quite similar to me. Well I'll be darned. Looks like we have a match.
Psionycx 05-16-07, 07:15 PM	And we're back to the Catholic symbolism! Seriously, if they had intended for us to have mullahs, muftis and caliphs then we they would have used those names. They didn't. The opted to go for heavy resemblence to Medieval Catholicism. Of course Catholicism shares characteristics with other religions. Most religions, especially after centuries of ever greater interaction, have come to adopt some similar traits.
mhacdebhandia 05-16-07, 08:38 PM	I think it's unnecessary to draw parallels between the Church of the Silver Flame and any specific, real-world religion. Of course, there are elements of the Roman Catholic church - crusades, seminaries, separate orders of the clergy, cardinals, a single leader of the worldly church, a saviour-figure who is conceived of as the true head of the church, the development of the faith from an older religion with which the saviour-figure was connected. On the other hand, the orientation of all churches towards Flamekeep, the absence of seats for worshippers, and perhaps the Order of the Radiant Flame (which could be inspired by the Sufis) suggest a connection to Islam. Likewise, the process by which each Keeper of the Flame is identified, and the fact that even a young child might become the new Keeper, reminds me of the way the reincarnations of the Dalai and Panchen Lamas are identified in Tibetan Buddhism. I think it's a mistake to treat the Church of the Silver Flame as a fantasy stand-in for any of these religions. Give the church its own identity, I say. It's similar in some respects to religions with which we're familiar, but that doesn't mean that we can extrapolate further details of the fictional faith from our knowledge of the real faiths.