Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Luis_Dragunov 05-11-07, 09:00 PM	I have to say that the tone of Eberron is impressive and a waff of fresh air. My group thinks the same and we're about to start a new campaign. I'm playing a young upstart wizard but I'm also considering multiclassing into cleric and then, of course, going the Mystic Theurge path. Thing is, rather than deposit his faith on the gods who forsook his homeland of Cyre, he rather belief in himself and his own will to conquer the challenges before him. Although I know this is mostly the call of my DM, would it be feasable still? I mean, it is quite clear that in Eberron, divine might comes from belief, not directly from active deities - so much that the one-step-alignment rule isn't effective in Eberron. Could my character have such faith in himself that he could draw divine might from it?
Rerecros 05-12-07, 12:03 AM	Your character would have to be pretty damn arrogant to worship himself. I say you can be a cleric of anything greater than yourself.
Rechan 05-12-07, 01:05 AM	There's one easy way: being crazy. There are those who are mentally deficient in our world who truly believe they are the reincarnation of Diety X. So any nutball who truly thought they were X and had faith in themselves as such could manifest power if their madness was strong enough, right?
Ardent 05-12-07, 05:51 PM	You're forgetting that he's a Wizard. Of course he can worship himself.
Esgay 05-12-07, 06:01 PM	You could say that his belief that he can master all known spells is enough to grant him the spells of a cleric, after all, if those inbred fools at the temple of aureon can wave their hands and cast those spells, surely a wizard with vastly superior intellect can do it as well. The fact that he can now cast cleric spells serves only to bolster his belief. Just make sure one of his domains is pride.
Rekko 05-12-07, 06:28 PM	As a DM, I wouldn't allow any Cleric worshipping himself. There are enough divinities out there which you can find yourself in. You tell us you want to go the Mystic Theurge. If you consider that magic makes you more pure, and that you want to put your services to the common folks, then The Silver Flame is your path. There's also Aureon, God of Law and Knowledge, the magic and mystery divinity of Eberron, you can worship. If you intend to use magic to create a lot of magic items, sort of like the artificer, Onatar would be your call. If your character is a mad wizard who loves magic for its power, you could venerate the Fury, or even the Shadow. If your character is very individualist, a religion that encourages this value, this ideal, is the Blood of Vol. Remember that the common folks know nothing of its real intentions (its link with Lady Vol, manipulating bloodlines, raising undead minions, etc.). The kalashtar's Path of Light could be an interesting religion/doctrine for you to fallow. I don't know which race you are, but if you are a warforged, the Reforged path seems an interesting doctrine, but you'd have to take a few levels in the PrC to make it credible. There are also multiple drudic sects where one might give a bigger focus on human(or other race) towards its role in the nature. You have many possibilities. Read about religion and you'll find out one that will interest you. Rekko
JulesCARV 05-12-07, 06:43 PM	In Jhonen Olain's Eberron adaptation guide, his interpretation of Ur-Priests is that they're basically self-worshippers. Being an ur-priest could work, maybe. Personally, I'd say that being self-worshipping cleric is a risky business. It might work. It might not. Being a cleric of the Sovereign Host or somesuch is a fairly "reliable" way of accessing divine magic, because they have more established rituals, meditative mantras, etc, that allow the mindset necessary for divine spellcasting. I'd say that an archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) is a fairly reliable way of accessing divine magic regardless of beliefs. You can believe in the Sovereign Host, the Silver Flame, yourself, the ideal of justice, or not much of anything in particular and cast spells as an archivist. Also, I have my own ideas for a system for clerics of no specific faith (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=806400). The idea is that these clerics cast spells based on extensive academic knowledge of the planes and how to draw power from them. They don't need a deity, or faith in an abstract concept, or an unwarranted sense of self-importance (although they might have all of those things): they just need to know a lot about planar magic.
clint_weststone 05-13-07, 08:12 AM	a cleric with no god is a cleric of just a faith or concept. a lg cleric with no god is going to draw his spells from the "concept"(for lack of a better word that is not in my head at 8 am) of law and goodness. this does not mean that he follows a good and lawful god and does not know it. he simply gets his magic from the "divine lawful goodness" the same would go for an ce. his is just from the divine chaotic evilness......or hell or something. as far as a cleric of self, unless your dude is a god and just did not know it im going nada. sorry kid. at least that is the way i see it
Hellcow 05-13-07, 11:10 AM	My question is if he literally worships himself - and believes that other people could also worship him - or if, rather, he worships the indomitable human spirit. If the latter, I'd allow it. By this path, what he believes is that humanity is greater than any god, can overcome any adversity... in many ways, this is actually similar to the beliefs of the Blood of Vol. If it is that he simply believes that he's a god, and that other people could worship him? Depends on the DM. I might allow it, but yeah, I'd probably stick him with Madness as one of his domains. ;) Note that there are warforged who worship the Lord of Blades. However, in my opinion, they don't literally believe that the LoB IS a god; they simply use him as a focal point for the concept of the warforged as a race. The LoB is a messiah and a symbol - but he's not literally seen as a god. The key to the "open faiths" of Eberron is that you can do whatever your DM will allow. But my intention was always that a new religion should make internal sense. It's not supposed to be an excuse to pick whatever domains you want; it's supposed to be a license to create religions that dont match the mainstream.
DarkWarriorKarg 05-14-07, 11:55 AM	As the above posters asked... what do you mean by self-worshipping? If it's the belief in the "mortal spirit", sevearl domains might be appropriate... Do you belive that you can overcome adversity though luck & perseverance? Gods be damned? Luck would be a good domain, as well as protection (helps you persevere)... or, you could just be a bard. As a self-promoting glory hound? As a joke, "Pride" and "Glory" might be appropriate... or perhaps a new domain... "Narcissim" Granted power: Fascinate 1/day/level as a bard Perform is considered a class skill *Note: Fascinate functions on the cleric. On a failed save, he/she keeps on performing because he/she knows they're great. Spells: 1: Charm Person 2: Eagle's Splendor (duh) 3: Suggestion (more to come, not at home...) So... which is it? Self-promoting glory hound or Iconic Mortal?
martik87 05-16-07, 05:59 PM	There are real religions in the world today that worship the god of self. I don't see it as a foreign concept, that every person has a bit of the "great divine" within them. Maybe your cleric thinks he can make a difference, and follows that part within him (and consequentially all beings/persons).
OctaviusIII 05-16-07, 06:39 PM	Or! Given that there are priests of Riedra, perhaps he could be a cleric of Cyre itself.
korcheck 05-16-07, 06:54 PM	Or! Given that there are priests of Riedra, perhaps he could be a cleric of Cyre itself. Ooh that's good domains could be vengeance, justice, or somesuch. "If the gods couldn't save it then by the gods I'll be its right hand of justice, and I don't need them to do it." I am woman/man here me roar!!
RogueElement 05-23-07, 09:09 PM	"Narcissim" Granted power: Fascinate 1/day/level as a bard Perform is considered a class skill *Note: Fascinate functions on the cleric. On a failed save, he/she keeps on performing because he/she knows they're great. Spells: 1: Charm Person 2: Eagle's Splendor (duh) 3: Suggestion (more to come, not at home...) There's also the ultimate form of narcissism: solipsism which says "I am everything." Similar to the Schrodinger's Cat argument in quantum physics, solipsists believe that nothing exists until they witness it.
RogueElement 05-23-07, 09:16 PM	My question is if he literally worships himself - and believes that other people could also worship him - or if, rather, he worships the indomitable human spirit. If the latter, I'd allow it. By this path, what he believes is that humanity is greater than any god, can overcome any adversity... in many ways, this is actually similar to the beliefs of the Blood of Vol. If it is that he simply believes that he's a god, and that other people could worship him? Depends on the DM. I might allow it, but yeah, I'd probably stick him with Madness as one of his domains. ;) Note that there are warforged who worship the Lord of Blades. However, in my opinion, they don't literally believe that the LoB IS a god; they simply use him as a focal point for the concept of the warforged as a race. The LoB is a messiah and a symbol - but he's not literally seen as a god. The key to the "open faiths" of Eberron is that you can do whatever your DM will allow. But my intention was always that a new religion should make internal sense. It's not supposed to be an excuse to pick whatever domains you want; it's supposed to be a license to create religions that dont match the mainstream. There are actually lots of religions and philosophies in real life that believe that each one of us is a god/goddess. I would say that a "cleric of self" would derive great power from such a belief without ever expecting anyone to worship him in any way or even acknowledging that he is in fact a god. A cleric of self wouldn't even need to believe in humanity in general is divine, just that some beings (like himself) that appear to be mortal are in fact divine spirits in embryo or disguise. The domains of such a cleric would be whatever the cleric thinks best represents his personal code or personality.
Amaril 05-25-07, 10:18 AM	To resonate with Hellcow's suggestion, the Blood of Vol is specifically oriented to faith in the self. Even more specifically, they believe that divinity is within your own blood as blood equals life. Those who worship gods are fools and are only deceiving themselves. There's more about this in Faiths of Eberron.
The Dreaming Duck 05-25-07, 10:39 AM	Those who worship gods are fools and are only deceiving themselves. There's more about this in Faiths of Eberron. As a side note, Hellcow's said that his prefered form of the BoV is what he wrote in Sharn:City of Towers. That sect believes that the Sovereigns exist, but that they fear the mortal races and cursed them with mortality and suffering in the dawn times. By that version, the work of the BoV is actually an altruistic struggle - a battle to free all mortals from death, even those fools who worship the gods that cursed them. Essentially, the key difference is that FoE says they don't believe in gods at all; S:CoT says they believe in the gods and hate them, believing that the blood holds the power to let mortals become as the gods but that death was created to prevent this. Personally, I like this because of the resonance with the Garden of Eden and as an answer to the question of "Why would a just god allow suffering and death" - the BoV answer is "He wouldn't, so clearly the gods hate us." It also gives the BoV a very strong bond as a community, because they are all working together in a quest to win an almost impossible war. Otherwise, the two versions are fairly consistent. So, it's really a question of whether you want the BoV to be a more introspective, solitary faith based solely around finding one's own divinity - or a community-oriented faith based around making a stand against cruel gods. To me, "the gods hate us" is a very Karrnathi thing - stoically continuing to fight in a world where everything is against you.
Amaril 05-25-07, 10:44 AM	The Dreaming Duck, that's interesting. A middle ground could be that the BoV feel that the gods do exist but that faith in those gods is foolish because of their cruel nature, and that faith in the self is evidently just as powerful (via divine magic and the domain powers and spells).
The Dreaming Duck 05-25-07, 10:54 AM	A middle ground could be that the BoV feel that the gods do exist but that faith in those gods is foolish because of their cruel nature, and that faith in the self is evidently just as powerful (via divine magic and the domain powers and spells). Yes, I think that is the idea of the S:CoT version of the BoV. The potential for divinity lies within the blood. If not for the curse of death, everyone would be able to become gods; as it is, it's hard for mortals to reach their full potential in their limited lifespan, and if you become undead you lose your blood and thus your true divinity (though you gain immortality to advise and protect others, and to fight the gods). So undeath isn't a goal of the church, it's a form of martyrdom. But the faith in the self is still part of the Sharn form - it's just saying that faith in the self can ultimately make you the equal of the gods, and that the goal of the church is to defeat those gods, end death, and allow everyone to reach that full potential. Certainly the idea is that those who serve the sovereigns are fools, but by the Sharn form, it's worse - as a follower of the SH, you are actually serving the powers that have cursed your people, powers that enjoy causing suffering and playing cruel games with mortals. As such, the Church of the Silver Flame hates the BoV because of its unnatural practices and use of undead; while the BoV doesn't care much about the Silver Flame, but hates the Sovereigns as the source of suffering and as manipulators who play games with mortals. I know this has been discussed in other threads, but I don't know where, I'm afraid.
JulesCARV 05-25-07, 12:03 PM	My personal, idiosyncratic view of the Blood of Vol isn't quite like Sharn: CoT or Faiths of Eberron. At least, I think not. I think of the mainstream faith of the Blood of Vol as like the LeHaye-Jenkins view of pre-millenial dispensationalism, or like some early gnosticism. The Blood of Vol is an elite with access to the truth which sets them apart from the masses, which both makes them morally superior to non-Seekers and gives them special indulgence to do things that are normally outside moral boundaries. Because overcoming death trumps everything else, and everything Seekers do will be vindicated if the gods are defeated and the new world is created, a paradise for all, the Blood of Vol essentially ignores (although does not actively seek to undermine) worldly morality, and focused on a kind of otherworldly, eschatological "big picture" of defeating the gods, ending mortality, etc. The Blood of Vol is thus both very community oriented, helping each other, since they regard each other as "the worthy," but not really oriented toward saving the mortal races as a whole -- those who cling to the Sovereigns or the Dark Six and fail to cultivate their inner divinity can go to Dolurrh and fade away for all they care: they deserve it.
The Dreaming Duck 05-25-07, 12:39 PM	Because overcoming death trumps everything else, and everything Seekers do will be vindicated if the gods are defeated and the new world is created, a paradise for all... not really oriented toward saving the mortal races as a whole -- those who cling to the Sovereigns or the Dark Six and fail to cultivate their inner divinity can go to Dolurrh and fade away for all they care: they deserve it. "Paradise for all" is the key phrase there. It's not that the Sharn interpretation of the BoV feels that they owe it to you to give you paradise. It's not that they feel any sort of sympathy for those who serve the Sovereigns. It's that they want to protect their own... and that if their goal is realized it will create a better world for everyone, even those who previously worshipped the Sovereigns. So until that day, look after your own and kill anyone who gets in your way; if they serve the Sovereigns they're idiots and have it coming. But when the new world is upon us, all will realize that you were their saviors.
JulesCARV 05-25-07, 01:27 PM	Ah. "For all" was a bad choice of phrase. I meant "for the chosen."
andrewknaut 06-23-07, 08:15 PM	Or! Given that there are priests of Riedra, perhaps he could be a cleric of Cyre itself. i completely agree with this if your dm thinks you need something greater then you to have faith in, have faith in the once that was great nation of Cyre. that would make sense and their must be domains that suit to that.
Crashy75 06-30-07, 03:08 AM	Have you considered the blood of Vol? Partial quote from faiths of Eberron on the blood of Vol, "look not to the skies, nor (and on)...Seek the divine within..." Eberron is more open than other settings. Open you mind and worship yourself. :D