Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thebestideaieverhad 02-19-07, 07:05 PM	Magic of Eberron introduces some spell(s) that allow the players to create deathless creatures out of corpses. I was wondering if this spell could in all senses work on a fallen player. It seems like having a deathless comrade might have some benefit. Or in any case, an deathless companion is better than a cold corpse right? I don't know, just looking for input I guess.
Vharuck 02-20-07, 08:12 PM	Yes, it could work. Deathless are (AFAIK) mentally the same as they were in life (so same mental ability stats, levels, feats, skills, etc). The only thing that changes is their physical form. It'd be interesting. Remember, though, that the Arenal closely watch the creation of the deathless. A rogue cleric raising friends not yet deemed worthy (or worse, non-elven) risks losing his or her divine powers (if I were DM, they'd lose them immediately).
thebestideaieverhad 02-21-07, 05:27 PM	In what manner do the Aerenal monitor the creation of deathless? I guess im not completely familiar with all the ins and outs of the undying court. Do ancestral spirits report to the undying council of things? or does the court have spies? or some other method?
Edymnion 02-21-07, 05:47 PM	In what manner do the Aerenal monitor the creation of deathless? I guess im not completely familiar with all the ins and outs of the undying court. Do ancestral spirits report to the undying council of things? or does the court have spies? or some other method?This is one of those times where DM discretion comes into play. If anybody of the appropriate level could cast the spell, then being Deathless would be meaningless. Getting made into a Deathless is the second greatest honor any areneal elf can ever hope to achieve, second only to becoming part of the undying court itself. If the spell is arcane (I doubt it, but I can't find it to double check), they simply would not teach anyone to cast it. If its divine (which it almost certainly is), then this would be one of those rare cases where the "gods" can actively deny spells to their clerics. This is one spell that I would say that *ONLY* the Undying Court can grant this spell, and that it is aware of every time someone tries to cast it. If it isn't someone they approve of, they simply do not grant the spell. So, not only would the PC in question waste the spell slot for that day, the Undying Court would immediantly know that someone had tried it, and would start looking for that person to make sure they never tried it again.
UnderworldLord 02-21-07, 05:48 PM	Which could be an awesome plot hook... And what would be funner is if it somehow succeeded. Afterall, how many Deathless does it take to grant a spell? Imagine by some accident that some fumbling councilor got his messages crossed and granted the wrong spell. Hard to believe... but plausible?
Edymnion 02-21-07, 06:06 PM	Which could be an awesome plot hook... And what would be funner is if it somehow succeeded. Afterall, how many Deathless does it take to grant a spell? Imagine by some accident that some fumbling councilor got his messages crossed and granted the wrong spell. Hard to believe... but plausible?I would treat the Undying Court as a whole as a single entity for this sort of thing. No one member can grant or deny spells, only the collected will of the Court as a whole. Most of the time, they don't care about the little details and just turn the answering machine on. Certain things would bypass the normal routes and set off an alarm, this would most definately be one of them. Printing a "Create Deathless" spell was the stupidest thing WotC has done (lately) for this setting. You *NEVER* print up mechanics for something unless you expect a PC to do it. This is just one of those things that the PCs should never have gotten their hands on in the first place. Its like having a market price and crafting prereqs for a Creation Forge.
Vharuck 02-22-07, 05:28 PM	I would treat the Undying Court as a whole as a single entity for this sort of thing. No one member can grant or deny spells, only the collected will of the Court as a whole. Most of the time, they don't care about the little details and just turn the answering machine on. Certain things would bypass the normal routes and set off an alarm, this would most definately be one of them. Printing a "Create Deathless" spell was the stupidest thing WotC has done (lately) for this setting. You *NEVER* print up mechanics for something unless you expect a PC to do it. This is just one of those things that the PCs should never have gotten their hands on in the first place. Its like having a market price and crafting prereqs for a Creation Forge. But I think they did intend for the PCs to use it. Notice that there are spells to create every type of Aerenal deathless except ascendant councilors. This is because they're the only ones they don't want the PCs to possibly make. Also, when dealing with divine magic, going against your deity's cause (casting an opposite alignment spell, performing an opposite alignment act, druids wearing metal, etc.) causes the character to lose all divine power immediately. No red tape, no nothing. The loss of magic is just that: magical.
androkguz 02-22-07, 08:19 PM	Yes, it could work. Deathless are (AFAIK) mentally the same as they were in life (so same mental ability stats, levels, feats, skills, etc). The only thing that changes is their physical form. It'd be interesting. Remember, though, that the Arenal closely watch the creation of the deathless. A rogue cleric raising friends not yet deemed worthy (or worse, non-elven) risks losing his or her divine powers (if I were DM, they'd lose them immediately). Never in Eberron would that happen. If clerics of the Silver Flame can become mafia leaders, if Blood of Vol clerics can be good then Undying Court clerics can deathless anyone and their powers would reamain untouched. Also, a character becomes the deathless once he is resurrected: he doesn't keep his levels the same way a 4th level barbarian doesn't keep his levels once a vampire slays him and he returns as a vampire spawn. But he is still him... :confused: You better create a Undying Template men.;)
RogueElement 02-22-07, 08:48 PM	I asked Keith Baker the same question once and Edy's response is basically spot on. You better be super sure that the fallen elf would be considered to be a great hero by the Undying Court. If the Court doesnt approve, they won't grant the spell effect (so you're guy stays dead and you wasted a spell) and furthermore they may even levy further punishments on you requiring an atonement. Personally, I think that they should never have been made spells but instead remained secret ceremonies that the average PC cleric would never learn about. Regarding playing a Deathless character: I simply modded the Necropolitan to the Deathless type and changed the whole unholy crucifixion thing to a somber ceremony involving drinking a potion made of powdered Irian crystals and rare necromantic herbs. A Deathless Necropolitan isn't any more powerful than a Warforged and certainly less powerful than a Warforged Juggernaut. My DM liked it too but made me take the Right of Counsel feat and the Deathless domain to help offset some of the Necropolitan advantages in the same way that the Juggernaut needs some stiff reqs. The spells and granted power of the Deathless domain are completely useless, so it seemed to balance well. Hope this helps.
Cifer 02-23-07, 02:32 PM	Aren't you just going against your own ideas, Edy? In Eberron, you can worship your shoe and gain divine magic. It's not the Courtiers that grant spells but the idea of the Court. The councillors may have the possibility to deny spell regeneration to their clerics, but I don't think they can deny a spell being cast - they would probably notice what has been done and question the elf, which, since the Court has access to scrying, telepathy and teleport-like powers, may encompass a very swift and possibly fatal ending to his actions. As has been said, there are corrupt clerics who don't lose spellcasting abilities. Personally, I think that they should never have been made spells but instead remained secret ceremonies that the average PC cleric would never learn about. This is one thing I massively disagree about - the average PC cleric in Eberron is a hero of his church, or becomes so after a few levels. This is not Fae'Run where you stay a pawn of your clerical bosses since they are near-epic - a level 10 cleric has almost risen to the top levels of the church that are available to the living.
RogueElement 02-23-07, 07:48 PM	...the average PC cleric in Eberron is a hero of his church, or becomes so after a few levels. This is not Fae'Run where you stay a pawn of your clerical bosses since they are near-epic - a level 10 cleric has almost risen to the top levels of the church that are available to the living. That's a good point.
Tanvalis 02-23-07, 09:30 PM	a level 10 cleric has almost risen to the top levels of the church that are available to the living. Not true at all, a level 10 cleric has risen in POWER to legendary status but his position in the church hasn't changed at all... unless he has also been attempting and roleplaying his way up the church hierarchy (pretty hard to do when out adventuring). He probably must report back to a surprisingly LOW level NPC classed superior because that's who is in charge.
UnderworldLord 02-23-07, 09:42 PM	Unless the DM is allowing "field promotion" since the character actually is RPing for that purpose. I'd go for it.
Cifer 02-24-07, 06:55 AM	Now, I'd say in most churches "[Deity of choice] lets me do this. Does he/she/it let you do that?" counts for something.
UnderworldLord 02-24-07, 10:21 AM	The real reason why the Cleric doesn't go up n the hierarchy isn't justthe power He has to know the doctrines of the church as well, among other things. He has to be able to do more than just cast better spells.
Cromag 02-24-07, 05:34 PM	The real reason why the Cleric doesn't go up n the hierarchy isn't justthe power He has to know the doctrines of the church as well, among other things. He has to be able to do more than just cast better spells. lets say I'm a level 10 cleric, I decide to max out know. religion and Profession Priest, and I felt like taking leadership and Ecclesiarch as my feats. int 10 wis 18 (kind of low considering equipment possibilities) no special feat I have a +13 to religion, +17 prof. priest I bet I have more knowledge about religion and how to perform as a priest then most NPCs out there. Plus I can bring back people from the dead.... Yeah, you've got seniority, but I'm so much better then even a focused low level NPC cleric in everything that matters I make them look sad. It's like a 100 year old quadrapalegic saying saying he should be on the olympic swim team because he's been in the water for a longer period of time than you. Mid level characters are heroic in eberron, hell it says somewhere in there at level 1 if you have a character class you're considered an up and coming hero and given respect. There is no reason they wouldn't be able to create a deathless creature. As far as cration forges, there isn't a create warforged spell, however there are create deathless spells, they even take up domain spots on players lists. It is a spell meant to be used.
UnderworldLord 02-25-07, 10:44 PM	If you've devoted the skill points to it, and role played it up, yea, you're going to go up in the religion. But I digress: the spell is there, use it if you feel like it.
goblin_pride 02-26-07, 04:25 AM	Aren't you just going against your own ideas, Edy? In Eberron, you can worship your shoe and gain divine magic. It's not the Courtiers that grant spells but the idea of the Court. The councillors may have the possibility to deny spell regeneration to their clerics, but I don't think they can deny a spell being cast - they would probably notice what has been done and question the elf, which, since the Court has access to scrying, telepathy and teleport-like powers, may encompass a very swift and possibly fatal ending to his actions. As has been said, there are corrupt clerics who don't lose spellcasting abilities. It's not the councilors themselves that deny the spell in this case, it's the nagging thought way down deep in the caster that he's violating a core principle of his faith by creating said Undying. Rather than a god denying the spell in Eberron, it's going against your own faith's doctrine that nixes the spell. Effectively, the cleric doing the casting subconsciously aborts the spell by saying the wrong word or sabotaging the casting in some unnoticed way because deep down he knows that it doesn't fit into his faith properly.
Cromag 02-26-07, 09:06 AM	It's not the councilors themselves that deny the spell in this case, it's the nagging thought way down deep in the caster that he's violating a core principle of his faith by creating said Undying. Rather than a god denying the spell in Eberron, it's going against your own faith's doctrine that nixes the spell. Effectively, the cleric doing the casting subconsciously aborts the spell by saying the wrong word or sabotaging the casting in some unnoticed way because deep down he knows that it doesn't fit into his faith properly. Didn't stop the Lawful Good Silver flame from commiting genocide, why should it stop this? There is no reason why you can't create an army of deathless rules wise. What is likely to happen is that if it gets out that you are improperly using spells then other members of the church will declare you a heretic and kill any deathless created, as well as the caster. -Remember in Eberron divine spells don't care if you thought it would be lawful good to animate a bunch of undead to kill orphans, then raise the orphans as zombies to attack the blind all in service of the kindest gods ever. The spell works, the social ramifications are the problem that he may run into. And even that is only when someone found out, which isn't automatic.
UnderworldLord 02-26-07, 10:36 AM	The Silver Flame and the genocide thing is completely different. They thought they were doing the right thing, but they were being indiscriminate, some probably unknowingly. But that is my opinion only, so back on topic. The thing is, you are violating your core principles, unless you truly view your friend as worthy of being a deathless. Even then, its not really your decision. I haven't looked at the spell, but IMO, it should take some sort of ceremony or at the very least an Irian Manifest Zone. No, that doesn't apply to the normal undead needing a manifest zone, this is a completely different type or magic. It is good-flavored divine necromancy. It shouldn't be easy. I have to say, this is a spell I won't be allowing in my campaign, if and when I get it off the ground.
DragoonDarkfire 02-26-07, 10:57 AM	Well the way I see. Just cause something is deathless doesn't mean he's working for the undying court. There could be other manifest zones of Irian on Eberron that are under the control of an ancient sect of humans or other race that simply veiw the occasional deathless as a sighn from the gods and a reward for good deeds. If characters were to encounter something like this then one of them becomeing a deathless might simply have the people or other race there shrug and go about their usual work. Of course if the undying court were to become aware of this they might be rather questionable as to how the character became a deathless in the first place.
goblin_pride 02-26-07, 12:40 PM	I have to say, this is a spell I won't be allowing in my campaign, if and when I get it off the ground. I get around spells I don't want mucking up my game by making priests carry prayer books. When a player says to me "I want to make a positive energy undead" I read the spell description and say to him, "sorry, that's not in the prayer books of the Silver Flame, you'll have to find that spell on a scroll somewhere."
Edymnion 02-26-07, 12:46 PM	I get around spells I don't want mucking up my game by making priests carry prayer books. When a player says to me "I want to make a positive energy undead" I read the spell description and say to him, "sorry, that's not in the prayer books of the Silver Flame, you'll have to find that spell on a scroll somewhere."Heh, I just flat out tell them "Tough luck". Call me a bit oldschool, but I have no problems with just outright telling a player they can't do something, as opposed to the 3e wishy washy "Well, you can do anything, if you put enough work into it" viewpoint. You wanna have a Great Red Wyrm for your mount? No, I don't care what you do, its just not going to happen, so come up with some other idea. You wanna play a character with more templates than CharOp board characters have classes? I don't care how good your backstory is, it ain't gonna happen. You wanna start up your own undying council with an army of deathless? Think again.
goblin_pride 02-26-07, 01:16 PM	Heh, I just flat out tell them "Tough luck". Call me a bit oldschool, but I have no problems with just outright telling a player they can't do something, as opposed to the 3e wishy washy "Well, you can do anything, if you put enough work into it" viewpoint. That's assuming I would ever actually let them get their hands on the spell, Edy. Sure, the Undying court could teach it to them, but first they'll need to cross Siberys and Khyber, jumping through hundreds of hoops and pretty much acting as lapdogs to the rotting elders of the elves, only to be told in the end, "sorry, we can't teach you, it would be too dangerous for you to cast."
Cifer 02-28-07, 09:06 PM	@Edy I've got to admit I don't understand you. Not at that one. I recall your comments about Fae'run and how a 18th level character migh, with luck, be allowed to run a magic shop in a small village and possibly not be massively outclassed there. Now, this is Eberron. Obviously, there are people capable of turning others into Deathless. Just as obviously, that would be an honorable position only given out to those who have distinguished themselves with faithful service to Aerenal, braving great dangers and overcoming mighty obstacles. Now doesn't that sound like the very definition of "pc"? Of course, they shouldn't abuse their powers, but that's just Uncle Benjamin at work, especially since in this case there still is someone more powerful sitting in the City of the Dead - so the danger of unchecked power doesn't even exist here.
JulesCARV 03-01-07, 09:24 AM	It is kinda weird how the Create Deathless line of spells is from a domain and religion that's presumably designed to be suitable for PCs, yet no deathless have a level adjustment, there's no template-style deathless that can by applied to existing characters, there are no "deathless as characters" bits, etc. It's all rather surreal. It's like deathless aren't for PCs, so the only real use of the actual spells is as surrogates for spells like Create Undead as used by evil clerics creating ghouls and stuff from slain enemy corpses -- but that's just completely, totally wrong. As is, the only real use I can think of for these spells is if there's a party with an creepy necromantic artificer who doesn't give a damn about the Undying Court who says "gosh, I'd like to have a few undead dolgaunts as bodyguards, but they're a pain to maintain, since you need those worthless wands of inflict wounds to keep 'em healthy rather than the wands of cure wounds that everyone uses anyway and the Dragon Below clerics we've been fighting might rebuke them and turn them against us. Ooh, I know, I'll create positive energy undead instead, so they're healed by our ordinary healing wands and aren't impressed by negative energy-channelling clerics! Now let me figure out how to scribe a scroll for that spell..." Hmm... I wonder what the Undying Court would think of that guy.
Cifer 03-01-07, 10:34 AM	Hmm... I wonder what the Undying Court would think of that guy. I'd say they'd send a party of adventurers his way...
Skyshroud Sage 03-01-07, 10:47 AM	I'd say they'd send a party of adventurers his way... More likely Cairdal Blades or Vigilant Sentinels of Aerenal (which I think are largely synonymous).
Hellcow 03-01-07, 12:13 PM	This is one of those times where DM discretion comes into play. If anybody of the appropriate level could cast the spell, then being Deathless would be meaningless. I don't have time to fully read or respond to this thread, but I agree with everything Edymnion said in the quoted post. Among other things, one of the critical concepts of the deathless is that they are supported both by the devotion of the people and by the energy of the Irian manifest zones of Aerenal... and that this creates a finite pool of energy. There is a limit on the number of deathless that Aerenal can support, and this is one reason that the Aereni are so picky about who receives this honor. They couldn't raise every dead elf as deathless even if they wanted to, because the resources of the living can only support so many. As I've said before, you could certainly find deathless in other cultures, but they would require the same resources: strong manifest zones to Irian and the worship (essentially) of the living. In my opinion, if you managed to kill every living Aereni elf (or simply turned their faith away from the Undying Court), the deathless would begin to fade away. Anyhow, I don't have time to pursue this further, but I think Edymnion as this covered... and yes, I think this is a case where I could see the spell simply failing if a cleric tries to cast it on an "unworthy" soul. If the soul IS worthy, then perhaps he can rise as deathless... but again, this is ultimately the will of the Undying Court and thus, the DM. The cleric is the vessel for the power, but this is one of the rare cases where the empowering force may refuse a prayer.
Lord Splendor 05-04-07, 07:03 PM	A character in eberron may opt not to have a deity. Instead they channel the divine power of the spiritual remants of the dragon above. They can select 2 domains that reflect their inclination and abilities. If you decided at first level to take the deathless domain, you can create deathless. You don't need the undying courts help. I took Deathless and Necromancer as both of my domains. My character wanted power over Negitive and positive energy. I also ended up taking Mastery of Night and Day, and a couple of Corpsecrafter feats.
The Ubbergeek 05-05-07, 10:15 AM	@Edy I've got to admit I don't understand you. Not at that one. I recall your comments about Fae'run and how a 18th level character migh, with luck, be allowed to run a magic shop in a small village and possibly not be massively outclassed there. Now, this is Eberron. It don't even work like that in FR (or GH). Like Eberron, the vast majority of peoples is very low level - the epic guys are very rare and sprinkled all over. Same things, only the gods are sure to exist, really. I'd allow the Deathless creation if the guy though and really believed himself in his faith that it was REALLY needed - like facing an ancient ennemy of their culture. With possible in game repercutions, like being branded an heretic, being hunted down and his 'creation' destroyed.
ArcTan 05-06-07, 04:30 PM	Never in Eberron would that happen. If clerics of the Silver Flame can become mafia leaders, if Blood of Vol clerics can be good then Undying Court clerics can deathless anyone and their powers would reamain untouched. Your internal alignment doesn't have to match your deity's, but your external behavior still has to follow your deity's code. Silver Flame Clerics *can't* become mafia leaders. They can be corrupt and hypocritical in the way they enforce the rule of the church, but they do have to enforce the rule of the church and believe themselves to be fighting Evil in the world.
Hellcow 05-06-07, 05:02 PM	They can be corrupt and hypocritical in the way they enforce the rule of the church, but they do have to enforce the rule of the church and believe themselves to be fighting Evil in the world. Agreed. Remember that in Eberron divine casters - especially full clerics - are actually relatively rare; most priests are experts with levels in Healing, Diplomacy, Knowledge skills, and others as appropriate - the skills needed to serve as spiritual leaders. In my opinion, your alignment doesn't have to match that of the deity. The Silver Flame priest can be lawful evil. But to channel power from the Silver Flame, he has to truly and deeply believe the precepts of the Flame. The point is that very few evil people see themselves as evil (and there's a whole 'nother discussion about detect evil here, but if you want my thoughts on that, you can find them on a dozen other threads). The evil priest needs to BELIEVE that his actions are furthering the cause of the Flame. If he doesn't, IMO he loses his connection to the Flame. WITH THAT SAID... the evil mob boss priest could always be channeling power from the Dragon Above and simply CALLING himself a priest of the Silver Flame; can you tell the difference? Anyhow, this is a personal ruling and a roleplaying thing. But it's certainly my opinion that a cleric MUST possess tremendous faith to maintain his powers. His faith can be misguided - allowing him to act in a way that is out of line with the doctrine of the church. But HE still needs to believe his actions are justified. He could be a mob boss if somehow he truly believes that this is what the Flame requires. But if he's just a mob boss for the fun of it, he shouldn't be a cleric of the Flame - he should be a non-caster (in which case he can do whatever he wants) or channeling "generic" power and calling himself a priest of the Flame. (And IMO, even channeling generic power requires strong faith, but it's not bound to traditional beliefs.) Beyond this, though, the Undying Court is a special case. The UC is the only divine force that we absolutely know to monitor events on Eberron. Dol Arrah won't punish you for a transgression, because Dol Arrah may not even exist. The UC DOES exist. They may or may not be able to strip you of your powers - that's a DM's call - but they can CERTAINLY excommunicate you, send the Deathguard against you, or take other harsh action. You have the advantage of actually being able to have a physical audience with the source of your powers - but that means that they are a more active presence in your life than any other deity-cleric relationship in Eberron.
Phalo 05-10-07, 01:23 PM	Couldn't an artificer just make a scroll. Since he would be neither arcane nor divine he would be exempt from the rule of undying court. or am i going at this the wrong way?
Cifer 05-10-07, 03:43 PM	Couldn't an artificer just make a scroll. According to the RAW, yes, he could. Since he would be neither arcane nor divine he would be exempt from the rule of undying court. Tell that a continent full of elves thinking that granting the gift of deathlessness upon someone unworthy is tantamount to blasphemy of the worst kind. or am i going at this the wrong way? Well, your way basically leads into the waiting spears of the Deathguard and the Vigilant Sentinels. Whether it is wrong I cannot say.
ChimericalWolf 05-10-07, 06:31 PM	While I have come to accept the facts of the setting as laid out by Our Hellcow, and his Champion Edymnion, I do wish that there was room for..."lesser" Undying. I want my adventuring cleric of the Court to go to his fallen friend, cram him full of positive energy, and wake him up, saying, "You are not worthy of this blessing. But you have fallen in noble combat with the dark foes of my people, and for that I give you a chance to strike back." Or Undyingify a fallen enemy with, "You have dishonored yourself, and nothing will redeem you. Your soul is trapped, your journey is over. Your flesh is forfit to me."
Pinky's brain 05-10-07, 07:34 PM	The UC is the only divine force that we absolutely know to monitor events on Eberron. How are they divine? PS. one of the single greatest things about Eberron to me is it lack of divine anything. If anything in Eberron ever gets statted with divine ranks it will be a great tragedy.
ArcTan 05-11-07, 12:37 AM	How are they divine? PS. one of the single greatest things about Eberron to me is it lack of divine anything. If anything in Eberron ever gets statted with divine ranks it will be a great tragedy. The UC can act with the equivalent of Divine Rank but lack the explicit ability to grant or take away divine spellcasting (at least the way I run them). They have the portfolio sense, portfolio powers, godly perceptions, SDAs, and so on of an intermediate deity, though. (Keith has officially statted the rakshasa rajahs as having the equivalent of a DR 7 in many ways, for reference.) FWIW I do think the UC would look unkindly on the creation of Undying for unworthy purposes -- and their DR-equivalent abilities like portfolio sense let them detect it -- but I wouldn't make them actively able to cut off a Cleric's ability to do so. Their vengeance would come in the form of ordering the Deathguard against the erring Cleric, the Cleric suffering some kind of curse, and the Cleric eventually falling of her own volition when she sees the UC have turned on her.
ArcTan 05-11-07, 12:43 AM	While I have come to accept the facts of the setting as laid out by Our Hellcow, and his Champion Edymnion, I do wish that there was room for..."lesser" Undying. I want my adventuring cleric of the Court to go to his fallen friend, cram him full of positive energy, and wake him up, saying, "You are not worthy of this blessing. But you have fallen in noble combat with the dark foes of my people, and for that I give you a chance to strike back." Or Undyingify a fallen enemy with, "You have dishonored yourself, and nothing will redeem you. Your soul is trapped, your journey is over. Your flesh is forfit to me." Flavorwise, these sound more like Undeath than Deathlessness. The Undying are animated by the love and devotion of a whole civilization -- their existence is fundamentally dependent on others, unselfish, voluntary. Other forms of hanging on after death -- selfish anger, punishment, etc. -- anything negative or involuntary or cruel or alienating is, flavorwise, a negative-energy form of life-after-death. You shouldn't be able to bestow Deathlessness as a result of negative events or emotions. That said, I would like to see other forms of Deathless beyond the Undying -- other ways other cultures have created positive-energy long-lived beings. Dwarf Ancestors, for instance.
Pinky's brain 05-11-07, 01:17 AM	The UC can act with the equivalent of Divine Rank but lack the explicit ability to grant or take away divine spellcasting (at least the way I run them). They have the portfolio sense, portfolio powers, godly perceptions, SDAs, and so on of an intermediate deity, though. (Keith has officially statted the rakshasa rajahs as having the equivalent of a DR 7 in many ways, for reference.) Well that is nice supposition, but I asked how they are divine concretely ... ie. by RAW. Stating things and writing them down are a different thing. Sometimes I get the feeling the godlessness of Eberron wasn't completely by Keith's design.
mhacdebhandia 05-11-07, 02:09 AM	In Eberron, you can worship your shoe and gain divine magic. This is a pretty tired and ugly oversimplification. Gaining divine magic in Eberron is a matter of strong, true faith in something. That can be a god, a force, a philosophy, or an ideal. If you can convince your DM that your character has strong, true faith in some philosophy or ideal represented by your shoe, sure you can "worship" it and gain magic - but good luck on that first part, eh? Sometimes I get the feeling the godlessness of Eberron wasn't completely by Keith's design. Eberron isn't "godless". It's "hard agnostic" - you can never know for sure whether or not the deities and divine forces of the world really, truly exist. It's exactly as plausible, but impossible to prove, that the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six and the Silver Flame do exist, somewhere beyond mortal knowledge, as that they don't exist, and are merely the collective invention of mortal beings. However, there are real entities in Eberron which can be proven to exist which have levels of power equivalent to what, in core D&D terms, would be called divine ranks. The Undying Court (as a gestalt entity) and the rakshasa rajahs are examples of such beings. They're not deities, but they are of godlike power.
ArcTan 05-11-07, 06:04 AM	However, there are real entities in Eberron which can be proven to exist which have levels of power equivalent to what, in core D&D terms, would be called divine ranks. The Undying Court (as a gestalt entity) and the rakshasa rajahs are examples of such beings. They're not deities, but they are of godlike power. The primary difference between these entities and actual gods being that they don't have the most important traits of D&D gods -- they don't depend on worshippers (a rakshasa rajah retains its power no matter whether anyone worships it, or even remembers it exists) and they don't grant divine spellcasting. The Undying Court is real and is powerful, but I'd still say that whether you can be a Cleric of the Undying Court depends on *you* and the faith they inspire in you, not on them. You can be a corrupt Chaotic Evil Cleric of the Undying Court and the Undying Court itself can't do anything about it, at least not directly -- as long as you believe you're doing the Court's will you have all your Cleric powers. The difference being that the Court can use its power to find out about what you're doing -- the hard way, as they don't have that automatic "spy on all my Clerics" power that real D&D deities have -- and then they can send emissaries to you to tell you in undeniable terms that you've screwed up and are outcast, and this will, in almost every case, cause a Cleric to fall and lose his faith. A particularly stubborn Cleric, though, can always invent some pernicious justification for why his faith is "true" even if the Court itself tells him it's not, and in so doing create a new CE faith that he can be a Cleric of. (Similar to what happened with the demon cultists of the Whispering Flame.)
Cifer 05-11-07, 07:54 AM	they don't depend on worshippers (a rakshasa rajah retains its power no matter whether anyone worships it, or even remembers it exists) Actually, there are several settings where this is not the case. The difference being that the Court can use its power to find out about what you're doing -- the hard way, as they don't have that automatic "spy on all my Clerics" power that real D&D deities have It's debateable whether scrying can be considered a "hard way" for the gestalt UC...
ChimericalWolf 05-11-07, 09:07 AM	It's debateable whether scrying can be considered a "hard way" for the gestalt UC... Well, certainly harder then just knowing what all your clerics are doing at all times...
Pinky's brain 05-11-07, 09:07 AM	However, there are real entities in Eberron which can be proven to exist which have levels of power equivalent to what, in core D&D terms, would be called divine ranks. That sentence is a bit disingenuous. Yes they can be proven to exist, no they can't be proven to have levels of power equivalent to abilities granted by divine rank. At least not until it's made official, and I think cooler heads than Hellcow will prevail here ... forcing the existence of divine creatures upon the setting would be a huge mistake.
Hellcow 05-11-07, 09:26 AM	The primary difference between these entities and actual gods being that they don't have the most important traits of D&D gods -- they don't depend on worshippers (a rakshasa rajah retains its power no matter whether anyone worships it, or even remembers it exists) and they don't grant divine spellcasting. Actually, just as a side note, the Undying Court DOES depend on the faith of its followers. Not in the same way as traditional D&D gods; its power doesn't wax and wane based on followers. However, it does need a certain amount of devotion simply to continue to exist. This is the idea behind ALL deathless: that they still require the energy of the living. In the case of the deathless, this is given willingly (and harmlessly) through veneration, as opposed to negative undead who tear it from the living. But the point of the deathless is that they need two things: a source of positive energy (such as Aerenal's manifest zones to Irian) and the devotion of living beings. This is one reason that I don't like create deathless as a spell - because the deathless were never intended to be able to have the numbers of the negative undead. Aerenal reserves the gift of deathlessness for those who are most worthy because it HAS to - because the spiritual resources of the island can only support so many of them. And, in theory, if you killed all of the elves of Aerenal - or turned them away from the Undying Court - the deathless would fade away. It might take decades to occur, as they'd still be linked through the manifest zone. But it would occur. Despite their power, they are reliant on the living.
Hellcow 05-11-07, 09:39 AM	Sometimes I get the feeling the godlessness of Eberron wasn't completely by Keith's design. On the contrary, the system of religion in Eberron has always been a core part of my design. The key is that, as others have suggested, there's a difference between a godless world, and a world in which it can't be proven that the gods exist. I wanted to create a world in which the gods were like OUR world. Where there can be MYSTERY around a god - where you can't just pop over the Valhalla and have lunch with Thor, or look at his stats and say "I could take this guy." I wanted a world in which gods can't HAVE stats - where they are beyond that. At the same time, I wanted a world in which there was every indication that there ARE gods - which is what you get with the Sovereign Host. The point of the Host is that across the world and history, you can find dozens of cultures that have worshipped variations of the Host. The giants called their Lord of Light and Lore Ouralon; the humans call him Aureon. But his symbol and his traits are almost identical, and prayers written in the days of the giants will produce results when used by a modern priest of Aureon. I've always described this idea as spiritual evolution. Yes, in Eberron, it is POSSIBLE to worship your shoe and gain spells. But it's EXTREMELY difficult. It takes IMMENSE faith in your shoe - faith most mortals can never achieve. Meanwhile, people who worship a Sovereign archetype find that spells come more easily. As a result, the Sovereign cultures have access to divine magic, while the shoe worshippers rarely do... and over the course of a hundred thousand years, the shoe worshippers fade away while the Sovereign worshippers prosper. Likewise, the Silver Flame has inspired many across the centuries - shulassakar, Khalesh, etc - more than the shoe. Perhaps this means that there ARE gods, and that the people who worship the are in touch with a true divine force. Or perhaps the Sovereigns are simply symbols that have gained power because of the number of people who venerate them. Perhaps if the shoe WAS worshipped by hundreds of thousands, it would become easier for people to gain spells from it. That's up to the DM. But the intent of Eberron all along was that while you CAN gain spells from your personal faith, there's a reason the major religions ARE the major religions - and that's because it's easier to gain spells through veneration of one of these forces. The cleric of the shoe can't be casual in his faith; he has to have serious conviction. And even then, one could argue that it might be that his conviction in the shoe is so great that he's actually drawing on the closest Sovereign without realizing it. The key is that I wanted a world where you could never MEET a god. I wanted a world where two followers of the same religion could actually have a serious schism over an article of faith. But I also wanted a world where faith MATTERED - where clerics are remarkable people in touch with something beyond the material world. So Eberron isn't a godless world. It's a world where the divine mysteries are just that: mysterious. NOW: What WASN'T by my design was the statement that clerics don't have to follow a code of conduct. It's always been a core idea that you can have corruption within a church. I strongly support the removal of alignment restrictions on clerics. However, in my opinion and in my campaign, conduct is TREMENDOUSLY important for a cleric. Whether he worships Shoe, Flame, or Sovereign, a cleric has to BELIEVE that his actions are in line with his faith or he will lose his powers. The key is that this is open to mortal falliability. A priest of the Silver Flame can be an evil person and take evil actions, as long as he BELIEVES that they are following the true doctrine of the church. And I don't mean he can lawyer his way around things; I mean that he truly has to believe that slaughtering innocents and torturing people can be justified by the core doctrine of his faith. So you can have a Silver Flame inquisitor who truly believes that by torturing you, he's purifying your soul, and his faith can grant him a link to the Flame. But if the cleric doesn't give a damn about saving your soul and just wants gold? If he's just fat with graft? Or worse yet, if he actually wants to free rakshasa rajahs? Then by my original designs, he would either lose his divine powers, or he would have to turn to a different path of faith he DID believe in. For example, the guy who wants to free the rajahs isn't actually a priest of the Silver Flame; he's a priest of the Whisperer in the Flame, and this is the true source of his power. He may DRESS as a Silver Flame priest, and he may serve as one, but it's not the nature of his faith or the source of his power.
Pinky's brain 05-11-07, 09:44 AM	Meh, much more likely an artifact of shared cultural background than anything else. Occam's razor cuts away gods in Eberron as easily as it does in the real world :)
Hellcow 05-11-07, 09:49 AM	Regarding the rajahs: With the rajahs, I wanted to give players the opportunity to face something with power to rival a god. In Eberron, you're never going to come face to face with Aureon. And I HATE the idea of gods with stats. But some people really want that challenge - and what's the point of having a sourcebook on divine forces if you never use the rules? Hence the rajahs. They AREN'T gods. They can't actually grant spells; you can gain faith as a devotee of a rajah, but it's not personally handing you the magic (it can be debated whether the spellpower comes from within you or, perhaps, from Khyber - which is after all the ultimate source of the rajahs). But they do have a level of power on par with a DR 7ish deity. So no, the existence of the rajahs isn't a sign that I wanted gods in the game; far from it. It simply means that I wanted the PCs to have the opportunity to face a creature with truly awesome power - but something that is on an entirely different level than Aureon or the Silver Flame. There's no question that the rajahs do exist, do have definitie agendas, etc. But for all their power, they can't grant spells to people across the world - which Aureon, if he exists, may be able to do.
Pinky's brain 05-11-07, 09:54 AM	Comparing the power of PCs to deities is like comparing a number to aleph 0. It's not a challenge, it's a slaughter. Epic is the place for higher level challenges than the default rules allow, not deities.
Hellcow 05-11-07, 09:56 AM	Meh, much more likely an artifact of shared cultural background than anything else. Occam's razor cuts away gods in Eberron as easily as it does in the real world :) Sure, but which is actually the simpler answer? If multiple cultures (spanning different continents and different species, with no other strong signs of cultural contact with one another) worship the same gods, is it actually simpler to assume cultural contamination... or that there are divine entities that have made contact with the mortals?
Pinky's brain 05-11-07, 10:04 AM	That worship gives access to magic which allows you to travel the world at a whim and read writings from all the cultures which preceded you ... the kind of cultural isolation from our world is simply impossible in Eberron. Cultural contamination is less of a possibility and more of a certainty.
Hellcow 05-11-07, 10:05 AM	Comparing the power of PCs to deities is like comparing a number to aleph 0. It's not a challenge, it's a slaughter. Epic is the place for higher level challenges than the default rules allow, not deities. And yet, that's exactly the point, PB. The rajahs are beings that unquestionably exist. They are a part of history. There's nothing mysterious about them. They aren't gods; as others have suggested, their power isn't at all dependent on mortals, and they can't grant spells or anything like that. But in the dawn of time, around thirty of them ruled the world - and this was a world full of dragons! The rajahs serve the role of Cthulhu in the setting - the lurking threat that could one day return to destroy everything we know. They AREN'T just an epic challenge. An epic challenge is Erandis after she gains a few levels - once mortal, now risen beyond it. The Overlords of the Age of Demons are forces beyond that. Look to Tira Miron. For all that she was an epic paladin (and didn't fight alone, though we've heard little of her companions), she couldn't just FIGHT the Overlord. She needed to become a vessel for the power of the Silver Flame - and even then, the best she could do was to force the rajah back into its bonds. A daelkyr is an epic challenge. A great wyrm can be an epic challenge, and there's a lot of them in Argonnessen. A rakshasa rajah is something entirely different. It's not a god, for all of the reasons that have been described before. But it's the most dangerous thing that you will find walking the world, and it's as close to a god as we can ever expect to meet in the flesh.
ChimericalWolf 05-11-07, 10:10 AM	Look to Jaela Daran. Jaela is our loli-pope. Tira Miron was the paladin...
Hellcow 05-11-07, 10:21 AM	That worship gives access to magic which allows you to travel the world at a whim and read writings from all the cultures which preceded you ... You've just set up a chicken and egg situation, PB. That magic gives you access to travel. But if you have the magic to travel, you have it before you travel. Besides which, the fundamental principle of Eberron is that magic over 4th level is quite rare. Teleportation, for example, is hardly a common thing. There's been no indication that the giants of Xen'drik ever visited Khorvaire; if they did, it was tens of thousands of years before the orcs and halflings developed their religions traditions. Lest I argue just to argue, I'll point out that I AM a big believer in cultures influencing one another. I agree with your fundamental point. From the very begining, my point was that religion in Eberron was closer to our own world than other settings. HOWEVER, that's exactly where the mystery comes in. In our world, you have many gods that follow the same archetype - a warrior god with lightning, say - but who are distinct in name and symbolism. Compare Egyptian mythology to Norse mythology to Roman to African. Here the point is that Chango and Thor don't simply share similar traits; rather, despite your finding one in Africa and one in Europe, they are recognizably the same figure, one's called "Thor" and the other is called "Thur". If it's cultural contamination, it's on a MUCH larger scale... and more important, it's not backed up by the rest of the society. If it is cultural contamination, why don't we see OTHER shared traditions among the cultures in question? Why isn't everyone speaking Giant? Why didn't ARCANE magic spread with the divine? Again, as I'm basically arguing for both sides: This ISN'T supposed to be a clear-cut yes and no. I'm not saying that this proves that the Sovereigns DO exist. The orc rituals of Baalkan and the Pyrinean devotions of Balinor are quite different, but both get spells from these rites. I'm saying that it's the strongest argument for the theologist to say that they DO exist. Essentially, you're saying "The fact that the cultures worship the same gods means they influenced one another", and that's certainly a logical and valid interpretation. However, in a world where there IS magic, where there are angels and demons, another possibility is "These cultures are similar to one another because they were influenced by the same gods." I don't want an answer to this question. I never wanted it to BE a question that could be answered. You suggest that I didn't want Eberron to be godless. What I wanted was for Eberron to be a place where there's no PROOF of the divine... where FAITH is vitally important, where people can follow the same deity in different ways. I can never prove the Sovereigns exist. But there are signs that can help shape my faith, that help me believe that there is more to the world than just what I can see. Anyhow, I don't have any more time for the topic, so I guess I'll just have to agree to disagree. ;)
Hellcow 05-11-07, 10:22 AM	JaeTira Miron was the paladin... Teach me to try to debate first thing in the morning.
Luis_Dragunov 05-11-07, 12:14 PM	I agree that, if you're a cleric of the Undying Court and create a deathless, that guy or gal better be a hero of the elven people or those ghostly pale(-er) elves are going to have a word with you. But Deathless is also a domain that you can pick if you choose to worship abstract ideas. And the Undying Court has a) no business about what kind of creature you create and b) no way to know it since Deathless is a domain they grant but not part of their portfolio (I think). It's even kind of silly to think that a whole creature type is the purview of a single entity.
JulesCARV 05-11-07, 01:41 PM	It's kinda funny how the Undying Court is listed as NG, but their attitudes seem more LN.
The Dreaming Duck 05-11-07, 03:28 PM	It's kinda funny how the Undying Court is listed as NG, but their attitudes seem more LN. Well, the Path of Light is neutral, but the majority of its followers are good. I'd argue that the underlying force of the Court is a positive force - representing, perhaps, the principle of life. However, the culture that has arisen around is hierarchical and bound by tradition - more LN than anything else. So just as the Path of Light is a group of good people tied to a neutral force, the UC is a good force empowering a largely neutral culture.
ArcTan 05-12-07, 12:02 AM	That worship gives access to magic which allows you to travel the world at a whim and read writings from all the cultures which preceded you ... the kind of cultural isolation from our world is simply impossible in Eberron. Cultural contamination is less of a possibility and more of a certainty. High-level Clerics theoretically could, but that doesn't mean they actually did -- it doesn't even mean we know for sure that those cultures even *had* high-level Clerics.
ArcTan 05-12-07, 12:04 AM	I agree that, if you're a cleric of the Undying Court and create a deathless, that guy or gal better be a hero of the elven people or those ghostly pale(-er) elves are going to have a word with you. But Deathless is also a domain that you can pick if you choose to worship abstract ideas. And the Undying Court has a) no business about what kind of creature you create and b) no way to know it since Deathless is a domain they grant but not part of their portfolio (I think). It's even kind of silly to think that a whole creature type is the purview of a single entity. Again, Deathless and Undying are not the same thing -- Undying are a specific kind of Deathless from the Aerenal culture. There could be all kinds of Deathless that could theoretically exist that have nothing to do with the Undying. (There are examples Deathless from the BoED, for instance, that have never actually been integrated into Eberron.)
The Dreaming Duck 05-12-07, 08:53 PM	That sentence is a bit disingenuous. Yes they can be proven to exist, no they can't be proven to have levels of power equivalent to abilities granted by divine rank. At least not until it's made official, and I think cooler heads than Hellcow will prevail here ... forcing the existence of divine creatures upon the setting would be a huge mistake. Actually, if you look at the cover of Dragon issue #337, you might notice the "100% official content" label in the upper left-hand corner. What makes Paizo different from all the OGL publishers out there is that it has (well, until September) the license to produce official content. If you look to the past, Baker's "Living Nightmares" article was directly used in Secrets of Sarlona, and the Umbragen appeared in Dragon before Secrets of Xen'drik. Especially in light of Baker's close involvement in the setting (he's working on two of the next three sourcebooks), I'd be very surprised if future material dealing with the Lords of Dust doesn't account for "Eternal Evil".
Hellcow 05-12-07, 09:23 PM	I'd be very surprised if future material dealing with the Lords of Dust doesn't account for "Eternal Evil". As would I. However... one of the single greatest things about Eberron to me is it lack of divine anything. If anything in Eberron ever gets statted with divine ranks it will be a great tragedy. "Eternal Evil" doesn't stat the rajahs with divine ranks. It provides them with abilities roughly similar to creatures of divine rank. However... Rajahs are not deities and do not have portfolios as such. They cannot grant spells, although "worshippers" might gain power from Khyber itself. It's all about power. Many people complain that Eberron lacks epic challenges. The truth is that it has MANY such challenges - they just aren't things that will happen unless the DM chooses to unleash them. The release of a rajah. Another planar incursion. Argonnessen deciding to destroy the dragonmarked races. Any of these things COULD happen - but none of these scenarios are looming threats. The Overlords were always intended to be this powerful. By the history of the setting, thirty of them fought against entire armies of dragons. Quoting the article again, "the release of an Overlord is an event that should pose a threat to an entire nation and if the full host of rajahs was released, the world itself would be endangered." Yes, I have statted a rajah with powers equivalent to the deities of other settings. But encountering this being is far harder than it is to encounter a deity in another setting. She can't come to you; she's bound by the Silver Flame. You can't go to her; while she is bound, she doesn't even have corporeal existence. Furthermore, while she is bound, she isn't even capable of fully conscious scheming. She is out there, and if a DM wants to unleash such a monster on the world, he can; her prakhutu can finally complete a millenial plan to break her bonds. But unless the DM makes that choice, for all intents and purposes, she doesn't exist. She's a legend - nothing more. She shows you just how bad the Age of Demons was, and what it was that forced the couatl to sacrifice their entire species. But she doesn't change the balance of power in the world... because unless the DM CHOOSES to break her prison, she's never going to walk the world. The Overlords are essentially the Great Old Ones. They are the threat BEHIND the Lords of Dust - the lingering fear that one day, the Lords will manage to free one of their ancient masters. But they've been trying to do for a hundred thousand years. If you as DM decide that it's going to take another hundred thousand years, go for it. No creatures with powers equivalent to divine rank for you. But if you want your players to have to find a way to overcome the ancient rulers of the world - creatures that can single-handedly fight off armies of dragons, beings who can't simply be faced in a fair fight - the Overlords provide it. The Overlords are the time bomb. Everyone knows they're out there. Everyone knows that the release of an Overlord will shake the foundations of the world. But if we're lucky, they'll never be released in our lifetime. We'll fight the Queen of the Dead, the Lord of Blades, and the rakshasa servants of the mightiest of fiends; these are challenges we can face on our own. If an Overlord is released, even epic heroes will need to find allies or greater powers; this is the work of a campaign arc, not a single evening. Victory or defeat will change the world. Defeat may end it; while the past victory is what gave birth to the Church of the Silver Flame. SO: Yes. I have presented the rajahs as having powers that are similar to creatures of divine rank, though not actually having divine rank. But this isn't even a case of saying "Psionics are concentrated in Sarlona". These mighty beings have been bound for a hundred thousand years, and if you don't want creatures of that level of power in your game, don't release one of them. Unless the bonds are broken, they DON'T exist in any meaningful way. But IF the bonds are broken, they were always intended to be the monsters who could shatter the world, the creatures that strike fear into even a continent of dragons. And as a single great wyrm can be an epic-level threat - that takes some serious power.
TheAnthroDM 05-13-07, 12:43 AM	The cleric is the vessel for the power, but this is one of the rare cases where the empowering force may refuse a prayer. But wait, isn't the whole point of Eberron's divine magic system that a Cleric CANT be denied a prayer? I mean, the Neutral Evil Cleric of the Silver Flame can't be denied Unholy Blight, why should the Lawful Good Cleric of the Undying Court be denied the power to create deathless? It doesn't fit the generally accepted concept that a cleric's power are derived from his belief that he's serving the will of his Religion. That said, a cleric of the Undying Court raising a soul he knows the Undying Court would not deem worthy should be considering Grossly Violating the Religions code. However a cleric raising someone he believed was worthy would not constitute this. And a cleric raising every man in sight is just bad roleplaying that should be dealt with by the DM.
Pinky's brain 05-13-07, 02:19 AM	Gods aren't eternal, SDAs and their other abilities are win buttons against PCs ... but when a god dies it dies. If you want to make an eternal evil it's much easier to just invent a new race which can't be killed.
The Dreaming Duck 05-13-07, 10:19 AM	If you want to make an eternal evil it's much easier to just invent a new race which can't be killed. Have you even read the article? That's exactly what he did. As Hellcow has already said in the quotes from the article, the article specifically calls out the fact that the rajahs aren't gods. From a mechanical standpoint, divine rank isn't even MENTIONED in the article. Rather, a number of abilities are presented which we can recognize as SDAs, and they have an ability called "Embodiment of Evil" which provides them with many of the benefits of divine rank. But they don't actually have divine rank. Moving on from that, there's then an entire sidebar on "Immortal spirits", outlining the nature of immortal outsiders in Eberron. Many of Eberron's outsiders possess some level of immortality. For most, it's more like traditional reincarnation, with the new outsider retaining some of the memories of its past life. For the rajahs, it's full-on they-just-come-backness. Hence, eternal evil; the only thing you can do is bind them. And as Hellcow said, given that they ARE bound, and that the release of a rajah is suppose to be an event that could devastate a nation or the world itself... it's not like it's just throwing in divine creatures wandering around doing whatever they please. YOU may not like divine creatures, but I certainly know players who like to face truly epic threats - something that is both deeply tied to the history of the world and that dwarfs them in power. These are the most dangerous creatures in the entire setting. They're the stuff of legends. And I expect them to be powerful enough that defeating them is a major challenge, something requiring the players to draw allies from other plans, to work with the dragons of Argonnessen, or something similar. And yet, because the rajahs are bound and the stuff of legends, YOU can completely ignore them, never have one appear in your game, and never have PCs say "So how come we never meet rajahs?" We both get what we want. Creatures of godlike power exist - but they've been bound for a hundred thousand years, and there's no reason for them to be released unless you WANT it to happen. "Inventing a new race that can't be killed" is exactly what Hellcow did. The rajahs aren't gods. They don't have divine rank. They're a new race that can't be killed, with powers similar to divine rank. So given that it sounds like you haven't read the article - you might find that it's not as bad as you think.
Hellcow 05-13-07, 10:56 AM	But wait, isn't the whole point of Eberron's divine magic system that a Cleric CANT be denied a prayer? ...It doesn't fit the generally accepted concept that a cleric's power are derived from his belief that he's serving the will of his Religion. I feel that a cleric NEEDS to have faith to perform his magic. But I've never said that it's his faith alone that gives him power. Again, by my original design, Eberron was never intended to be "Godless"; it was intended to be a world where it is POSSIBLE to question the existence of the gods, something that you certainly can't do in FR. The concept that it is faith alone that generates the magic is certainly a valid theory. But so is the theory that the Sovereigns exist, albeit on a plane of existence that simply cannot be reached by mortals; they may only exist as ideas in the collective unconscious, but have power nonetheless. The fact that a faithful priest can use his magic to do evil in the name of good doesn't mean that his gods don't exist; it means that if they DO exist, they are responding to his faith, and not micromanaging and looking over his shoulder at everything he does. So: Eberron was intended to be a world where you could never MEET a god, and where it is possible to believe that the gods don't exist. But that's certainly not the common belief ON EBERRON. In our world, people believe that gods exist, yet the gods never physically manifest, and priests DO often act against the word of the faith. But people still believe in the gods. Same thing. Eberron allows room for doubt - but it's not flat-out saying there are no gods. With that said, it is saying that there are no creatures with divine ranks walking around. As Dreaming Duck has said, the rajahs don't have divine rank; they are unique creatures with a similar level of power, and they're not walking around. But by the design of the setting, you should never actually meet a god in a form that you could fight. NOW - this brings us to the Undying Court. Again, the reason I called out the Undying Court is because it is one of the few divine forces known to exist. Now, this is what started PB's panic in the first place, so to clarify: Yes, I said that the UC is a divine force. However, no single member of the UC possesses divine power. The UC wields divine power as a gestalt entity. As such, it's still not something you could encounter physically. But it is this level of power that has allowed Aerenal to withstand attacks from Argonnessen. The key is that this level of power is largely limited TO Aerenal. The Court can't move, and it can't exercise its full power beyond its holy land. However, the point is that it is a unique force within Eberron. When a priest of Aureon uses commune, SOMETHING answers him. Is it Aureon? An outsider pretending to be Aureon? The collective unconscious? Who knows. In the case of the UC, commune speaks to that gestalt force. And, as such, the UC is a god that could technically be destroyed. You can't kill Aureon. But you could raze Shae Mordai and trap the spirits of all the ascendant councilors. So my point is that the UC is unique among the religions of Eberron, because they ARE touching on an existing force. The UC ISN'T monitoring the actions of each individual cleric. They aren't omniscient, and they aren't necessarily worried. But in my opinion, they will strip an unworthy cleric of his powers. So you might get away with the raising deathless thing once, but unless it's justified, you will be punished. Aureon isn't going to ever hold you directly accountable for your actions; the UC can. Personally, I think it was a mistake to make create deathless a spell in the first place. I'd leave it a ritual requiring the use of a wondrous location - something that can only be done in Aerenal or (in the case of other cultures) a place with similar ties to Irian. If the spell exists, people will obviously expect to use it. I have no problem with the idea that a PC COULD become deathless. But there should be far more to it than just the sacrifice of a spell slot... and if the Undying Court feels the recipient is unworthy, it's an action that could have grave consequences.
rice830 05-13-07, 11:55 AM	~This still doesnt solve any sort of problem with PC deathless and the Deathless domain. ~Should there be a replacement spell that takes place of "Create Deathless" and "Create Greater Deathless?" Also, I've never seen any use of the Control or Halt Deathless either. Why would someone want to halt/ control one of their "Gods" most fabled of friends? It doesnt make sense. I think that they could have done a lot more for the deathless domain, as it is very strange right now. ~Also, along the lines of a PC Deathless, i've always loved the idea and toyed with it quite a bit. I've considered just ruling a Necropolitan made of Pos Energy, or the Baelnorn from Monsters of Faerun, and have him made created of positive energy, as Liches seem to fit the spellcasting elves of Aerenal. ~All the previous put aside, they dont really fit the Undying. It would be just dandy if someone that really knew Eberron and all about it *Kieth* would create some sort of template, as I would problably make them too powerful because I've always favored the Court and its worshipers.
Hellcow 05-13-07, 12:21 PM	This still doesnt solve any sort of problem with PC deathless and the Deathless domain. Quite right. I'd throw it out and replace it with the Community domain, myself. With that said: Also, I've never seen any use of the Control or Halt Deathless either. Why would someone want to halt/ control one of their "Gods" most fabled of friends? It's all a question of presentation. In my opinion, control deathless isn't about forcing an undying creature to perform an act it would be violently opposed to doing; it's about asserting your authority as a priest of the Court to get it to assist you. It's like an officer running into a couple of privates and saying "YOU! You're with me!" Likewise with halt deathless. I see a valid use for this being if the party is attacked by deathless because of a misunderstanding, and the priest needs to buy time to explain. He's saying "Stop in the name of the Undying Court!" - invoking a power the deathless respect. So if it's used with the broader interests of the Court in mind, and with true faith, I can see these spells working. With that said, I'd still replace the domain with Community.
Pinky's brain 05-13-07, 12:46 PM	The spells are really the lesser problem if you don't like the deathless being controlled, greater rebuking is far more powerful (ignoring the setting issues it's insanely overpowered).
ArcTan 05-20-07, 09:12 PM	But wait, isn't the whole point of Eberron's divine magic system that a Cleric CANT be denied a prayer? I mean, the Neutral Evil Cleric of the Silver Flame can't be denied Unholy Blight, why should the Lawful Good Cleric of the Undying Court be denied the power to create deathless? It doesn't fit the generally accepted concept that a cleric's power are derived from his belief that he's serving the will of his Religion. Deities can't deny prayers on a case-by-case basis the way they can in Forgotten Realms. The Silver Flame will never "realize" Cardinal Krozen is Lawful Evil and therefore take away his divine spellcasting powers. However, what spells you get are still dependent on your religion. The Silver Flame is an LG religion and can't grant [Evil] descriptor spells. It says so right in the ECS. It goes with the idea of having to maintain the *image* of belonging to an LG faith even if you yourself are CE -- no matter how Evil Cardinal Krozen gets, he still can't use his powers to summon demons or animate undead, and he still *can* -- and probably does -- use his powers to call angels and bless water and such. That said, a cleric of the Undying Court raising a soul he knows the Undying Court would not deem worthy should be considering Grossly Violating the Religions code. However a cleric raising someone he believed was worthy would not constitute this. And a cleric raising every man in sight is just bad roleplaying that should be dealt with by the DM. Although Keith seems to want to make the Undying Court an exception to the general "divine magic comes from your own faith" rule, I actually wouldn't. The way I play the Undying Court, as real and physical as they are, their isolation in Aerenal and their ascension above the normal mortal frame makes them quite distant and makes their direct intervention in specific mortal events quite rare. And I don't think they have the *direct* power to withhold divine spellcasting, either -- if a Cleric mistakenly believes someone is worthy who isn't, and animates them as a Deathless, the UC does *not* have the power that an FR deity would to sense this occurrence using portfolio sense and immediately revoke that Cleric's powers. However, they could use a *non*-Deities & Demigods method of destroying that Cleric's *faith* in herself -- if they actually did find out about this act, judge it as wrong and told the Cleric that she was dismissed, her faith would be shattered and she'd lose her Cleric powers unless she could somehow rationalize it to herself (by basically starting a new, non-UC-dependent faith). I would still make this an issue of the Cleric's faith, though, and state that the UC has to do this by finding out about the transgression through other channels and telling her about her excommunication through other channels, *not* by the automatic sequence of "auto-scry-on-my-transgressing-cleric" power that core D&D deities possess.
ArcTan 05-20-07, 09:16 PM	Personally, I think it was a mistake to make create deathless a spell in the first place. I'd leave it a ritual requiring the use of a wondrous location - something that can only be done in Aerenal or (in the case of other cultures) a place with similar ties to Irian. If the spell exists, people will obviously expect to use it. I have no problem with the idea that a PC COULD become deathless. But there should be far more to it than just the sacrifice of a spell slot... and if the Undying Court feels the recipient is unworthy, it's an action that could have grave consequences. Create deathless was a mistake in the same way that statting up relatively low-CR Undying soldiers and councillors was -- they're two concepts that go together. If it's possible to have large numbers of relatively weak Undying "grunts", the equivalent of Ghouls and Wights, then the process for creating them can't be all that hard. There's still a process for creating PC-levelled "unique" Deathless that's really hard and special in the way that creating Vampires and Liches from scratch is really hard and special, but create deathless is about the less exciting kinds of Deathless. I can see how that fits into a campaign, where you *can* raise a small number of Deathless "grunt" characters in times of need to save your butts from attackers and such, and where this is a limited way of adding to the UC on a smaller and less important scale than promoting someone wholesale. If that's not part of the UC concept in your campaign, though, I can see a reason to drop the whole concept of Deathless-creating spells and the Deathless domain.
ArcTan 05-20-07, 09:18 PM	The spells are really the lesser problem if you don't like the deathless being controlled, greater rebuking is far more powerful (ignoring the setting issues it's insanely overpowered). I think rebuking Deathless makes *sense*, for the reasons Keith gave -- I think if you're going to be a priest of the Deathless that assumes you do embody a certain amount of responsibility and command over the Deathless as individuals -- but I do think that, mechanically, it's way overpowered. Especially if you have a PC Deathless who realistically could get rebuked by an enemy Cleric at some point in the game, which he has no way of saving against or ending. Of course, these concerns are multiplied many times over for the Warforged domain.
Dr. Benway 05-21-07, 07:28 PM	Heh, I just flat out tell them "Tough luck". Call me a bit oldschool, but I have no problems with just outright telling a player they can't do something, as opposed to the 3e wishy washy "Well, you can do anything, if you put enough work into it" viewpoint. "Oldschool" isnt quite the term I'd use...more like "Close-minded" and "Uncreative." I've been playing DnD for nearly 20 years, and I dont remember people being this way. In fact, with all of the ambiguities back in the day compared to now, you had to be much more creative and use judgement and discretion a lot more. Today things are very coherent and there's an answer for almost any major rules question. You wanna have a Great Red Wyrm for your mount? No, I don't care what you do, its just not going to happen, so come up with some other idea. You wanna play a character with more templates than CharOp board characters have classes? I don't care how good your backstory is, it ain't gonna happen. You wanna start up your own undying council with an army of deathless? Think again. This is just dumb. Every example you use is a moronic thing to say and/or do. Raising one of the party as a deathless does not equate to creating an army and starting your own court. Using extreme and unrealistic examples to prove your opinion clearly illuminates its worth. Unless your players are idiotic munchkin powergamers on crack with no sense of balance or maturity, these sorts of kneejerk judgements and misperceptions are unnecesary, limiting, and, as mentioned above, just plain dumb. Dr. Benway :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
JulesCARV 05-22-07, 05:55 PM	One thing I wonder about -- it's noted that some undead come back without any help from necromancers. A particularly heinous mass-murderer might become a morgh (sp?), for example, even if a cleric doesn't actually cast create undead on the corpse. (In fact... um... a cleric can use any ol' random corpse to create the morgh, even though a morgh is the body of a mass murderer. Go figure.) Could the body of someone particularly righteous, holy, good, etc, spontaneously rise as a deathless after death, without any create deathless spells being cast? This isn't really relevant to the thread per se, which concerns the deathless domain, but it strikes me as an intriguing question.
ArcTan 05-22-07, 11:46 PM	One thing I wonder about -- it's noted that some undead come back without any help from necromancers. A particularly heinous mass-murderer might become a morgh (sp?), for example, even if a cleric doesn't actually cast create undead on the corpse. (In fact... um... a cleric can use any ol' random corpse to create the morgh, even though a morgh is the body of a mass murderer. Go figure.) Could the body of someone particularly righteous, holy, good, etc, spontaneously rise as a deathless after death, without any create deathless spells being cast? This isn't really relevant to the thread per se, which concerns the deathless domain, but it strikes me as an intriguing question. Honestly, I think something like this -- a great hero of the past appearing in holy light before those praying to him -- must've been how Deathlessness was originally discovered.
Hellcow 05-23-07, 02:41 AM	Although Keith seems to want to make the Undying Court an exception to the general "divine magic comes from your own faith" rule, I actually wouldn't. Neither would I. My point from the start is that Eberron is not a world where gods don't exist and faith alone grants magic; nor is it a world where gods are the unquestioned source of divine magic. It is a world where we don't KNOW if the gods exist. Some force answers when you use commune. If you're a cleric, you may believe it to be your god. If I don't share your faith, I can come up with half a dozen other explanations. There's no way to know which of us is right. What we both agree on is that you can't have magic WITHOUT faith. That doesn't mean that the faith itself is the cause of the magic. The typical cleric of the Sovereigns will tell you that his faith is his channel to the Sovereigns, and he may be right. The worshipper of the holy shoe will tell you that faith is simply a lens for focusing the divine energy of the Dragon Above - magical background radiation, if you will - and he may be right. Meanwhile, the Sovereign priest will say that the Shoe priest is actually getting his spells from a merciful Kol Korran or a mischevious Traveler. There's no simple way for a mortal to know the answer. Now, in the case of the Undying Court, the last thing I meant to say was that when you cast cure light wounds, the Undying Court has to ratify the spell. I've always considered that sort of thing to be ridiculous. However, I DO think that in the case of the Undying Court, when you use commune, you're talking to the Undying Court, whether you connect to a personal ancestor or an aspect of the gestalt. Your faith is in the Court, and the Court as a gestalt entity IS capable of wielding divine power. I don't believe that they deal with most spells on a case by case basis. But I believe that certain spells (like commune) do touch them directly; and that they can choose to sever a cleric of the Court from the source of the power. Essentially, if they excommunicate you, it's not just a priest saying "We don't like you any more" - it's the divine force saying it. I don't think this is because they are literally refusing to fill your spells any more; I think they are simply severing your connection to the well of power until you atone. Your faith reaches out to that well; if you've been cut off, they've raised a wall blocking you - it's not that they say "Hey, it's that annoying guy - let's not answer his prayer." So, I don't think ANY force does the "Thor, cleric on line three wanting a cure light wounds" thing. But I think that the Undying Court is a force that can hold its clerics accountable in a way most priests don't have to worry about... and the flip side of this is that as a cleric of the UC, you have the ability to go to Shae Mordai and ask the Court for advice without using commune, something you can't do with Onatar. (Well, you can DO it, but good luck getting an answer.) Likewise: I do feel that the unified force of the Undying Court can project immense power in Aerenal - but this doesn't extend beyond Aerenal. In Khorvaire, a cleric can draw on the power of the Court - but the Court couldn't just decide to blast Sharn, or grant a cleric powers he hasn't earned access to. What a cleric is capable of doing is something he must learn over time... by building up his faith and his belief in both the Court and his own abilities. And I don't think they have the *direct* power to withhold divine spellcasting, either -- There we disagree, and that's fine. Again, I don't believe that they "withold" divine spellcasting; they don't consider most spells on a case by case basis. But I do believe they can cast you out, blocking your connection to the well of power. To recast this: I believe that clerics use faith as a lens to channel magical energy. I believe that there are multiple sources of magical energy they can draw on. The Silver Flame exists. It's a source of magical energy that binds demons. Clerics of the Flame use their faith to tap into this energy source. Is this force in any way sentient? Maybe, maybe not. However, it is a DIFFERENT source of power than the force than the force that priests of the Undying Court draw on. Priests of the UC draw on the collective power of the UC. Mechanically, there's a clear way to tell that there's different power sources at work: Alignment. A cleric of the SF gets that powerful lawful good alignment from tapping into the Flame, regardless of his own alignment; a cleric of the Blood of Vol picks up the evil aura. Does this mean there's good or evil gods at work? No. Neither religion believes in traditional gods. But they are different sources of divine power accessed by faith. The members of the UC are essentially high priests, angels, and deities of the faith rolled into one. I don't believe that they, individually or as a whole, consider each and every spell cast. But I believe they do have the ability to sever a priest from the well of their power. This is what atonement is all about. Again, it's not that you call and they don't answer - it's that they've disconnected your phone service, and you can't make any calls until they agree to reconnect the line. Likewise, I don't think, in most cases, they are instantaneously aware of everything a cleric does. They have the capacity to punish, but they need to know that there's reason to do so. However, I make an exception when it comes to the deathless, because in my mind, creating deathless is like using commune - it's a spell that taps directly into that pool. It's not that you need permission to do it. They can't STOP you from doing it. They don't get to vote on it. But once you've DONE it, they know - because you've just dropped a stone into the pond. While he's not FORMALLY a member - it takes centuries to earn a place in Shae Mordai - when you, as a priest of the Undying Court, use the rituals of the Undying Court to create a new deathless, you have essentially increased the size of the Undying Court by one - and THAT they'll sense. Again, it's like commune - a spell that by its nature deals with the divine. (Side note: As I said, there's many other ways to explain commune. No need to point out that it could be a powerful outsider, the collective unconscious, etc - all of those answers make sense. However, in the case of the Undying Court, where you can go and physically ask them for advice, I certainly play commune as going ot the source as opposed to finangling an alternative.) And I believe ANYONE could cause a cleric to lose her powers by causing her to lose her faith. Agreed there. But I also believe in the possibility of divine excommunication (something I covered in the theocracy chapter of Crime & Punishment) as a punishment that can interfere with even the faithful. So: IMO, a cleric can't have magic without faith. But that doesn't mean that faith alone is sufficient. Divine magic DOES draw on other forces, regardless of whether those forces are sentient or just mystical resources waiting to be tapped; and there may be ways to sever a connection to that power. Personally, I feel that the UC has that power - and again, the flip side of this is that it's the only religion where you can have a covnersation with the force you revere without using magic. (OK, you could make a case for the Blood of Vol here, but that's a different story - and I'm setting aside LoB worshippers because that's a case where whatever they think, the LoB is a symbol, not a divine entity. You could certainly decide that the exact same thing is true of the UC; in my opinion, their gestalt power is a critical part of their nation's survival in their struggles against Argonnessen, and while it's far from absolute, it's clearly more real than the LoB's divinity.) In any case, I keep seeing a lot of "Keith wants traditional deities" statements. I don't. I never did. Removing DR deities from Eberron was one of my strong goals from the begining of the setting; I feel it's vital to the moral ambiguity of the setting and allows for a completely different exploration of faith and religious infighting. The UC is not made up of gods; it wields a near-divine level of power acting in concert, but that's something that exists entirely outside the traditional ruleset (unless there's rules for thousands of undead acting in a sort of divine metaconcert that I don't know about). The rajahs are not gods; it's repeatedly stated in the article I wrote about them. They have a level of power on par with gods in other settings, but they don't grant spells, have portfolios, or any of that. My point, however, is that just as I don't want gods, I don't want to say that there are NO gods. Or that every religion is the same. Perhaps the Silver Flame is just what it's followers think, but the Sovereigns don't exist. Perhaps the Sovereigns exist, and the divine shoe worshipper gets his spells from the Sovereigns. In my opinion, the UC, the Path of Light, and the Blood of Vol are three fundamentally different forms of magic; they can all be cast under the umbrella, but they are reaching out to very different sources of power in very different ways, and just shaping it to produce different results. When these three clerics cast commune, the effect may be the same, but the metaphysical explanation may be entirely different; it's not just that their faith in different things let them all draw from the same pool. The UC cleric may get his answer from the UC itself; the PoL priest plucks the response from the minds of all dreaming mortals; the BoV priest from an ancient lich or from the divinity that lies within his own blood. An arcane fireball is a fireball is a fireball; divine spells aren't always so similar, in nature, even if the effects are identical. So I'll say it one more time: I don't want gods walking around Eberron, and I never have. I hate the idea that a god personally answers your call for cure light wounds. But I do want variety and mystery in divine magic: I don't want it to simply be arcane magic that requires prayer instead of a book. The fact that it ISN'T always predictable and varies from faith to faith is part of what creates that mystery. (Hmm. Think that post was long enough?)
Cifer 05-23-07, 07:22 AM	An arcane fireball is a fireball is a fireball; divine spells aren't always so similar, in nature, even if the effects are identical. Personally, I wouldn't even say that, not with classes that approach arcane magic in ways as diverse as the sorcerer (an intuitive connection to the world which you can influence), the wizard (strict blueprints and formulas) and the assassin (seemingly just a craftsman's tool to become better at what you do). (Hmm. Think that post was long enough?) So... you do think Eberron should have material gods? I'm dissappointed... :D
Hellcow 05-23-07, 12:26 PM	and yes, I think this is a case where I could see the spell simply failing if a cleric tries to cast it on an "unworthy" soul. I realized I posted this long ago after going to sleep. I do think that there are spells that can be seen as touching the source of divinity. This could be such a case - the UC holds the source of power and must choose to hand it out. I feel strongly that there is a limited pool of power in Aerenal - that the island can only support so many deathless, and that this is one reason they are so strict about who receives the honor. However, on retrospect, I hold to the longer post. They might not be able to block the spell, being aware of it as it is cast; however, they will become aware of it as soon as it is done. Essentially, the water level just dropped in their pool. They can't just magically destroy the new deathless, and the only action they could take against the priest at a distance would be to sever her from the source of power. So essentially it's a case of "violate your code of conduct and lose powers"; it's simply the case that the UC is a case where I DO believe that this choice is made by a force we know to be sentient, and not purely reliant on the cleric's internal faith. The cleric may still be deeply devoted to the UC, and thus seek to atone for her actions. Or it may be that she will make an effort to prove that her actions were justifed, and that the new deathless deserves his status. But it is a case where I believe a faithful, devoted cleric could lose her powers. As a side note, this doesn't mean that you created lots and lots and lots of new deathless all at once you'd destroy the UC; if you drain the pool, it would simply prevent the creation of new deathless. Because of this, the UC may feel that they have to send emissires to destroy the new deathless. Also, if you have other deathless - like the dwarves in the Demon Wastes - they are drawing on their own sources of power, and as such have no bearing on the UC.
Hellcow 05-23-07, 01:08 PM	Personally, I wouldn't even say that, not with classes that approach arcane magic in ways as diverse as the sorcerer (an intuitive connection to the world which you can influence), the wizard (strict blueprints and formulas) and the assassin (seemingly just a craftsman's tool to become better at what you do). And I still would. The thing about the sorcerer is that while he gains access to spells in a manner quite different from a wizard, he still casts them in the same manner. Whether a sorcerer or wizard casts a fireball, they both use a pinch of bat guano in the process. Even if you bring Eschew Materials into the picture, in my opinion arcane magic all draws on the same fundamental source of magical energy. A bard may tap into it with his songs, a sorcerer with the power of his blood, a wizard by studying his books. Three sorcerers may have different explanations for their access to arcane magic. But none of these three gain an alignment aura from touching this force. Essentially, I do see arcane energy as being an ambient force in the world - and arcane casters, whatever their methodology, all draw on this force (which some sages refer to as "the Blood of Siberys", claiming it emanates from the circling ring). The skeptics say that the "Holy Shoe" casters draw on this same ambient source of power, simply shaping it with faith, and picking up that alignment aura because of some magical side effect of their faith. It's up to you to decide if this is the case; I believe that the Silver Flame, UC, and BoV are all drawing on fundamentally different sources. Essentially, the principle of Eberron from the start was that arcane magic is a science. It follows predictable principles and has become a cornerstone of society. You may not be able to teach sorcery, but you can train someone to be a magewright. Divine magic, on the other hand, is a mystery. One farmer who deeply believes that he is a vessel of Arawai's blessings can perform divine magic; another may love the Sovereign and have no such power (tying to the point that divine casters are actually supposed to be fairly rare in Eberron, and most priests of the Silver Flame, for example, are experts). It may be faith alone; it may be the blessing of a sentient force; it may differ for each cleric and adept. Tied to this difference between faiths, let's look at paladins. Paladins ARE still held to a higher standard of alignment and behavior in Eberron. Paladins are supposed to be called to service. How does this work? In my opinion, it's going to be a completely different process for each faith. A paladin of the Silver Flame has a vision of Tira Miron in his dreams, calling him to service. Is it real? A quori trick? Who can say. But he finds that if he serves faithfully, the power of the Flame does flow through him, empowering his blade. He may continue to have visions in his dreams, informing him of the path he must follow; again, these might be true divine visions (as he certainly believes them to be) or not, but that's a DM call. When he fails to live up to the guidelines set to him, he loses his powers. In all likelihood, this is because of his knowledge - conscious or subconscious - that he has become an unworthy vessel for the power, and that he must atone before he can channel the Flame again. I see paladins as being an interesting case in the Church of the Silver Flame. IMO, they aren't appointed by the church. A cardinal can't MAKE you a paladin, nor can he take your powers away (unless you introduce excommunication rules). And you're held to a higher standard that any cardinal or cleric. In a sense, that's a threat to the cardinals. They can be corrupt; you can't. You answer to a higher power than even the clerics. A paladin of the Blood of Vol derives his power from within. Essentially, he calls himself: he has an awakening in which he realizes the role that he must play as a champion of the faith (a kind of odd champion, but set that aside for the moment and assume that you've decided a paladin of the BoV makes sense under the circumstances). Like the SF, his failing is an internal one; he realizes he has failed and cannot access his powers until he redeems himself. A key point here is that even in this case, he can't lawyer his way out of it. The power may be within him, but he must follow a pure path to reach it, and he inherently knows the restrictions of that path. A paladin of the Undying Court may actually be called before the Undying Court, ordered to act as a champion of the faith, and invested with a fraction of their gestalt might (a link to that pool of divine energy through which he gains his powers). This might be a case where "falling" is actually a punishment inflicted by the court itself... which means that it might take longer to occur, because they aren't actually aware of everything that you do (and you could potentially even get away with a misdeed), but also means that a) you could potentially be framed and b) atonement might take a more difficult form. A Valenar paladin may literally be chosen by an ancestral spirit to serve as his vessel in the present. He believes that the spirit is always with him - divine grace is the spirit working to protect him from harm, magic is the immediate work of the spirit aiding him, smite evil is it strengthening his blade to strike with its ancient might, and the paladin's mount is a reincarnation of the hero's legendary mount. And should he fail in his duty, the spirit will leave him until he proves his worth again. As a DM, I would make slight adjustments for faith. If I allowed a paladin of the Blood of Vol, I'd probably drop the "associating with evil-aligned individuals" restriction in favor of a more common sense "associating with those who do evil." (I prefer this as a general rule, but I'd certainly do it here) The paladin of the BoV believes that his religion is a force for good, and as long as he surrounds himself with those who DO good and oppose those who do evil, he's got room to move - although it's the tricky walk. The UC presents the interesting possibility of serving a divine force you can speak with - although again, that's NOT the force that directly answers your prayers, and it's not aware of every time you lay on hands. On the other hand, the Valenar paladin has the chance to explore that "little god" concept - to say that you don't serve a vast and mighty divine force, but rather that you are a vessel for lesser spiritual entity. You could certainly do the same exercise with sorcerers, as I essentially did in Dragon not so long ago. My point is that I believe that whether a sorcerer is dragonmarked or a Child of Siberys, he is still manipulating the same fundamental energy as an Aundairian wizard... while the paladin of the UC and Valenar paladin are drawing on different pools of energy.
Warforged Goblin 05-23-07, 01:54 PM	:salute
ArcTan 05-23-07, 04:30 PM	Well, I don't have any real disagreement with Hellcow on this one, I think. I do agree with him that this view of making Undying basically means that create deathless shouldn't exist as a spell at all. If someone decides that it *does* exist as a spell, then they're basically imposing a view of creating the Undying -- or at least the ordinary, "grunt" Undying -- that's quite different from the vision Hellcow describes, where ordinary Undying are just a kind of being with the potential to join the UC and become part of the gestalt divinity therein but aren't automatically such when made.
rice830 05-28-07, 02:40 AM	~Many of us have talked about having the Deathless be a template instead of changing everything completely, so I had some time last night and got to work. This is what I came up with. ~The first two templates may be applied to an Aerenal Elf, though other elves have been recorded on rare occasions, that is has at least four HD and usually is at leat 300 years of age, though there are exceptions there as well. ~The Undying Warrior -Type: Changes to Deathless -HD: Change all to d12's -Special Attacks: Smite Evil 1/day. Gain Cha bonus to attack roll, and HD bonus to damage. Applies only to evil. -Special Qualities: Deathless traits, DR 5/ Targath, Turning Resistance +2. -Abilities: Str +4, Wis +2, Cha +2, being of the Deathless type, they have no Con score. -Feats: Gain Blindfight as a bonus feat. -LA: +2 or +3 I believe, but I'm leaning on +2. ~The Undying Mage -Type: Changes to Deathles -HD: All change to d12's -Special Qualities: Deathless Traits, Turn Resistance +4 -Abilities: Dex +2, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha +2, being of the Deathless type, they have no Con score. -LA: +2 or +3, again, I'm iffy on the LA.
rice830 05-29-07, 11:06 PM	~Ok, since no one has replied to the first templates i designed, ill put up another that i thought up. ~Undying Coucilor Must be applied to an Elf with either the Undying Soldier and Undying Mage template already. --Armor Class: +10 Natural Armor, and +5 Insight, as the deathless form wraps the Undying Coucilor in a vast pool of knowledge and the skin tightens to form an outer coating. --Attack: Gained a natural slam attack that does 1d8 + 1.5x Str. --Special Attacks: Cleansing (look to Eberron Campaign Setting) and Spell-like Abilities (also in ECS) --Special Qualities: DR +5 to exhisting DR/ Targath, Spell Resistance 9+HD for Soldier and 12+HD for Mages. Turn Resistance raising by 4 --Abilities: Str +14, Dex +2, Int +8, Wis +8, Cha +6 --LA: I have no idea. I believe it's around +5?
Ainvar 05-29-07, 11:26 PM	Why is it that deathless would need turn resistance? I thought I was told rebuking them is like being given an order. So, having turning resistance is like being to refuse orders by priests?
Cifer 05-30-07, 05:02 AM	Why is it that deathless would need turn resistance? I thought I was told rebuking them is like being given an order. Because you don't want your priceless ascendant councilor destroyed by some Vol-cleric. Turning and Rebuking work on them, just in the reversed way. So, having turning resistance is like being to refuse orders by priests? It's just higher rank, so only senior priests are allowed to command you.
MageWeasel 05-30-07, 01:27 PM	Just as a side note- I actually did have a cleric in my campaign that more or less worshiped his shoes. He was a cleric of The Traveler, and every night he'd lay his sandals before him and pray for his spells. He kept them in tip top condition, would become quite offended if any one made fun of them, and took Improved Unarmed Strike just so he could channel his divine might into what he called "The Right Foot of Justice". He eventually became quite powerful. And when he finally met his end, other clerics of his faith showed up to claim the shoes, which now sit on the alter of one the largest (secret of course) temples dedicated to The Traveler. To this day, clerics come from all around to pay homage to the Sacred Sandals... Now it seems to me that the Deathless domain has it's own built in buffers. Meaning that if some "rogue cleric" goes around creating deathless without the permission of their superiors, who better to show up, use the power of the exact same domain to neutralize the clerics illegal creations, then deal with the offender directly. With the domain comes the ability to check others who abuse it's powers, and rightfully so.
rice830 06-07-07, 01:18 PM	~So are there any corrections that need to obviously be made on the templates? Or input that would be appreciated. ~The ole reason being that soon my DM told my character that he has been working his way up quite fast in the ranks of Aerenal and the Court has been giving me thought.
Cifer 06-08-07, 06:12 PM	~So are there any corrections that need to obviously be made on the templates? Or input that would be appreciated. Well, the correction I'd make is not to use them. Not for a player character. Just reverse-energy the Necropolitan from Libris Mortis.