Creation Forges Making Things [Archive] - Wizards Community

Creation Forges Making Things [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Edymnion
06-09-07, 11:32 PM Okay, I keep seeing people claiming that the creation forges just got used to make all sorts of differant things, non-warforged things, like they were some kind of factory or assembly line. To my knowledge, this has not been said, or even hinted at, in any Eberron book that I have read.

Where are people getting this idea from?
TMK, the creation forges have one purpose, and one purpose only, the creation of Warforged. They cannot be used to make swords, or wagons, or anything else. Just Warforged.

So seriously, is there some obscure referance in one of the Eberron books for this that I just keep missing, or what? And if it is said somewhere, I would a solid referance, including book and page number please.
alder_zeal
06-09-07, 11:50 PM I have read eberron novels, own all books except dragonmarked. I have never seen a reference of creation forges making nothing but Sentient Golems. I use this term because the creation forges did make warforged titans, chargers and scouts.

I dont know if this is the right place in a novel i read a creation forge that created Psi-forged, was only used to create psi-forged and nothing else. Is it a safe idea to make that canon, or author's perspective? In other words a standard creation forge could not create a Psi-forged.
Need_A_Life
06-10-07, 10:31 AM Many people seem to mistake a Forgehold (a Cannith "factory") for a Creation Forge (a specialized piece of machinery).

I can't imagine why...
AvonRekaes
06-11-07, 06:53 AM Edymnion: I didn't question where I heard it until you asked, but I believe you're right in that it's not in a published source. Now that I think about it, it came from the Ask Keith threads, so it really isn't cannon.

EDIT: If I recall, he said something like Cannith having to work around the loss of creation forges, since they used it for many other things (like making magic items faster and with less xp cost).
AvonRekaes
06-11-07, 07:53 AM Just posting again to give you more references to what I was talking about Edy. All of the following questions and answers are from the Ask Keith Baker Archive (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-259293.html)

I'll emphasize the stuff that lead me to believe creation forges are for other things, but this isn't in effort to prove my point, just to clarify why I thought what I did. Regardless of Keith's answers in AKB threads, they aren't canon until said otherwise, and it looks like WotC hasn't said otherwise on his views on creation forges.

In attempting to envision their forges, is it appropriate to consider them to be the Eberron equivalent to manufacturing plants/assembly lines?
The creation forges were mysterious artifacts that allowed both a level of mass production but also an enhanced ability to create new things (and may, for example, explain how Cannith could cheaply produce adamantine-alloyed objects). However, these forges have in theory been shut down. Cannith does have dragonshard foci and wondrous locations that enhance their manufacturing abilities, speeding production time and reducing XP cost, but these are not as efficient as full modern automated manufacturing; you still have workshops of artificers and magewrights working at benches and tables. Eventually, you'll certinly see more details on all of the houses.

Do you really believe they had the "Overdrive" forge, the "Plasma Blade" forge.
No. I believe that creation forges are astonishingly versatile tools that can produce many different things. Any of the creation forges could be used to produce any warforged -- from a titan to a scout -- provided you had the requisite schema, materials, and operators.

That one can be interpreted as "many different models of warforged", but given the context of these other answers Keith gave, I don't think he's just talking about living constructs.

My question is “In Eberron is there any Economy of scale involved in the fabrication of magic items?”
Yes, I believe that there is. However, this would be a matter of specialized production facilities and tools (taking advantage of wondrous locations, manifest zones, and the combined efforts of dozens or hundreds of trained spellworkers). Thus, these are the sorts of things that exist, but aren't easy for PCs to take advantage of. Also, I would argue that these are limited;
this doesn't mean that there is a big Detroit-style factor kicking out magic wands. Things are being done to reduce the costs of production -- both magic and mundane -- but it's not a mirror of our world. And Cannith has suffered a significant loss with the destruction of the creation forges.

Short form, yes; long form, it's is a subject I would expect to see expanded upon in greater detail in the future.

My understanding is that creation patterns and forges were used to create many things other than the warforged more cheaply and quickly than is normally possible for magic items (like the eternal wands?). I find it a little surprising that the Nations were willing to give up these other conveniences just to stop the production of warforged. So what's the deal? What else were the creation forges used for, that is no longer commonly available? Or were the other creation patterns always held back by Cannith for its own purposes?
Are the warforged actually the first pattern successfully used in the forges, and the creation pattern sought in SotLW expected to be something just as impressive and useful as they were?.
The creation forges have been an ongoing process of development. Earlier designs -- which could still be in use -- might be more similar to the dwarven forges found in Races of Stone; as these are not appropriate for the Mror Dwarves, I could certainly see assigning these items to House Cannith in Eberron, and such an item could still be used today. Thus you could still get standard items produced more economically. The creation forges were advanced to their final state -- capable of producing artifacts that could be produced any other way -- during the war. And the issue is basically one of power. When it comes down to it, the nations are afraid of House Cannith and what it was able to produce during the war; effectively, it's the lords of the nation enforcing their power on a force they are begining to see as a threat. If Cannith itself had not lost its leadership in the destruction of Cyre, it's possible that the house wouldn't have stood for this; as is, the question is whether they will try to work around it.

This one here seems to indicate that earlier versions of the creation forges are still being used to make "standard items". Not sure if that means "non-magic" or "minor magic" or just "any standard magic item". But given the context of the quote directly above it (specifically the bold part indicating that Cannith was dealt a major blow) these "minor forges" might only be good for mundane items.

Again, not saying I'm right, and I'm freely admiting this isn't canon. Just letting you know where I got my assumption from.
Edymnion
06-11-07, 12:11 PM Ah, thank you, thats just what I was looking for.
I knew it had to be coming from *SOMEWHERE*, but I didn't have a clue as to where. Personally, its one of the things that I would dissagree with Keith on, but its good to know that there is a legit source for the confusion.
Hellcow
06-12-07, 03:10 PM Personally, its one of the things that I would dissagree with Keith on...
Not so much, actually. The quoted statements are from a non-canon source and years ago. A closer canon source for my opinion would be the Warforged Dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050627a), which says...

The name that most people associate with the warforged is that of Merrix d'Cannith. This man developed the first of the creation forges, and his warforged titans were the first of the sentient constructs.
This implies, among other things, that the first forge was created little over a century ago, and the context of the article is specifically describes them as being used to create constructs and later being modified to create living constructs. It later says "Warforged are formed in the creation forges, which channel the powers of Cannith heirs to produce effects similar to major creation and fabricate." But I'd still see it as using those powers for purposes of creating constructs. So I do think that the creation forges were specialized tools for the creation of constructs - but they could create warforged titans as well as warforged soldiers.

I do believe that House Cannith makes use of wondrous locations and devices simplar to the forges described in Races of Stone to create economies of scale. I believe that losing the creation forges was a considerable blow to the house because of the considerable expense of these items and the fact that they COULD be used for development of future constructs. But at this point, I believe that the canon interpretation is that they were specialized tools for the creation of constructs.

So I'll take credit for the confusion, but hey, that's why my sig says that my board posts aren't canon!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 06-09-07, 11:32 PM	Okay, I keep seeing people claiming that the creation forges just got used to make all sorts of differant things, non-warforged things, like they were some kind of factory or assembly line. To my knowledge, this has not been said, or even hinted at, in any Eberron book that I have read. Where are people getting this idea from? TMK, the creation forges have one purpose, and one purpose only, the creation of Warforged. They cannot be used to make swords, or wagons, or anything else. Just Warforged. So seriously, is there some obscure referance in one of the Eberron books for this that I just keep missing, or what? And if it is said somewhere, I would a solid referance, including book and page number please.
alder_zeal 06-09-07, 11:50 PM	I have read eberron novels, own all books except dragonmarked. I have never seen a reference of creation forges making nothing but Sentient Golems. I use this term because the creation forges did make warforged titans, chargers and scouts. I dont know if this is the right place in a novel i read a creation forge that created Psi-forged, was only used to create psi-forged and nothing else. Is it a safe idea to make that canon, or author's perspective? In other words a standard creation forge could not create a Psi-forged.
Need_A_Life 06-10-07, 10:31 AM	Many people seem to mistake a Forgehold (a Cannith "factory") for a Creation Forge (a specialized piece of machinery). I can't imagine why...
AvonRekaes 06-11-07, 06:53 AM	Edymnion: I didn't question where I heard it until you asked, but I believe you're right in that it's not in a published source. Now that I think about it, it came from the Ask Keith threads, so it really isn't cannon. EDIT: If I recall, he said something like Cannith having to work around the loss of creation forges, since they used it for many other things (like making magic items faster and with less xp cost).
AvonRekaes 06-11-07, 07:53 AM	Just posting again to give you more references to what I was talking about Edy. All of the following questions and answers are from the Ask Keith Baker Archive (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-259293.html) I'll emphasize the stuff that lead me to believe creation forges are for other things, but this isn't in effort to prove my point, just to clarify why I thought what I did. Regardless of Keith's answers in AKB threads, they aren't canon until said otherwise, and it looks like WotC hasn't said otherwise on his views on creation forges. In attempting to envision their forges, is it appropriate to consider them to be the Eberron equivalent to manufacturing plants/assembly lines? The creation forges were mysterious artifacts that allowed both a level of mass production but also an enhanced ability to create new things (and may, for example, explain how Cannith could cheaply produce adamantine-alloyed objects). However, these forges have in theory been shut down. Cannith does have dragonshard foci and wondrous locations that enhance their manufacturing abilities, speeding production time and reducing XP cost, but these are not as efficient as full modern automated manufacturing; you still have workshops of artificers and magewrights working at benches and tables. Eventually, you'll certinly see more details on all of the houses. Do you really believe they had the "Overdrive" forge, the "Plasma Blade" forge. No. I believe that creation forges are astonishingly versatile tools that can produce many different things. Any of the creation forges could be used to produce any warforged -- from a titan to a scout -- provided you had the requisite schema, materials, and operators. That one can be interpreted as "many different models of warforged", but given the context of these other answers Keith gave, I don't think he's just talking about living constructs. My question is “In Eberron is there any Economy of scale involved in the fabrication of magic items?” Yes, I believe that there is. However, this would be a matter of specialized production facilities and tools (taking advantage of wondrous locations, manifest zones, and the combined efforts of dozens or hundreds of trained spellworkers). Thus, these are the sorts of things that exist, but aren't easy for PCs to take advantage of. Also, I would argue that these are limited; this doesn't mean that there is a big Detroit-style factor kicking out magic wands. Things are being done to reduce the costs of production -- both magic and mundane -- but it's not a mirror of our world. And Cannith has suffered a significant loss with the destruction of the creation forges. Short form, yes; long form, it's is a subject I would expect to see expanded upon in greater detail in the future. My understanding is that creation patterns and forges were used to create many things other than the warforged more cheaply and quickly than is normally possible for magic items (like the eternal wands?). I find it a little surprising that the Nations were willing to give up these other conveniences just to stop the production of warforged. So what's the deal? What else were the creation forges used for, that is no longer commonly available? Or were the other creation patterns always held back by Cannith for its own purposes? Are the warforged actually the first pattern successfully used in the forges, and the creation pattern sought in SotLW expected to be something just as impressive and useful as they were?. The creation forges have been an ongoing process of development. Earlier designs -- which could still be in use -- might be more similar to the dwarven forges found in Races of Stone; as these are not appropriate for the Mror Dwarves, I could certainly see assigning these items to House Cannith in Eberron, and such an item could still be used today. Thus you could still get standard items produced more economically. The creation forges were advanced to their final state -- capable of producing artifacts that could be produced any other way -- during the war. And the issue is basically one of power. When it comes down to it, the nations are afraid of House Cannith and what it was able to produce during the war; effectively, it's the lords of the nation enforcing their power on a force they are begining to see as a threat. If Cannith itself had not lost its leadership in the destruction of Cyre, it's possible that the house wouldn't have stood for this; as is, the question is whether they will try to work around it. This one here seems to indicate that earlier versions of the creation forges are still being used to make "standard items". Not sure if that means "non-magic" or "minor magic" or just "any standard magic item". But given the context of the quote directly above it (specifically the bold part indicating that Cannith was dealt a major blow) these "minor forges" might only be good for mundane items. Again, not saying I'm right, and I'm freely admiting this isn't canon. Just letting you know where I got my assumption from.
Edymnion 06-11-07, 12:11 PM	Ah, thank you, thats just what I was looking for. I knew it had to be coming from SOMEWHERE, but I didn't have a clue as to where. Personally, its one of the things that I would dissagree with Keith on, but its good to know that there is a legit source for the confusion.
Hellcow 06-12-07, 03:10 PM	Personally, its one of the things that I would dissagree with Keith on... Not so much, actually. The quoted statements are from a non-canon source and years ago. A closer canon source for my opinion would be the Warforged Dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050627a), which says... The name that most people associate with the warforged is that of Merrix d'Cannith. This man developed the first of the creation forges, and his warforged titans were the first of the sentient constructs. This implies, among other things, that the first forge was created little over a century ago, and the context of the article is specifically describes them as being used to create constructs and later being modified to create living constructs. It later says "Warforged are formed in the creation forges, which channel the powers of Cannith heirs to produce effects similar to major creation and fabricate." But I'd still see it as using those powers for purposes of creating constructs. So I do think that the creation forges were specialized tools for the creation of constructs - but they could create warforged titans as well as warforged soldiers. I do believe that House Cannith makes use of wondrous locations and devices simplar to the forges described in Races of Stone to create economies of scale. I believe that losing the creation forges was a considerable blow to the house because of the considerable expense of these items and the fact that they COULD be used for development of future constructs. But at this point, I believe that the canon interpretation is that they were specialized tools for the creation of constructs. So I'll take credit for the confusion, but hey, that's why my sig says that my board posts aren't canon!