Crusaders in the Mournland [Archive] - Wizards Community

Crusaders in the Mournland [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Augurer
02-26-07, 02:38 PM How are the Maneuvers and Stances that provide healing handled in the Mournland? Paladins' Lay on Hands ability circumvents the "no healing" rules, I believe. Is it the same for Crusaders?
Nived
02-26-07, 03:04 PM Theme vs Rules here.

Technically it works because the stances arent' Conjuration (healing) effects, which are what is blocked by the magics of the Mournland. Paladin's Lay on Hands and Druid's Goodberry sells work because they are not Conjuration (healing) they are a supernatural ability and a trasmutation respectively.

Similarly the Devoted Spirit maneuvers and stances are not Conjuration (healing) and thus, by a strict reading of the rules would work in the Mournland.

However, one must keep in mind that these things didn't exist whent he rules for the Mournland were written, and it's also fair for a DM to simply say 'no' or that for the effect of their game these effects are Conjuration (healing).

There's probably something about this in Keith's Eberron Expanded article on Tome of Battle that WotC has still decided not to post.
Wrathamon
02-26-07, 09:09 PM Warforged Crusader Juggernauts are nasty because of this. they can heal themselves with the devoted spirit stances.
Cabral
02-28-07, 01:04 AM You don't need to take any crusader levels, you can pick it up via Martial Study and another feat to get the maneveurs and stances you want. :)
Korhal IV
02-28-07, 03:15 AM Warforged Crusader Juggernauts are nasty because of this. they can heal themselves with the devoted spirit stances.

Eek. How many Warforged Crusader/Juggernauts do you think the Lord of Blades has in his employ? ;)
Cambian00
02-28-07, 12:05 PM not many, I hope....

If he had any, then it might be a bad time for my Shifter Warblade/Barbarian

I hope my DM never sees this thread - he might get ideas
Wrathamon
02-28-07, 03:38 PM Eek. How many Warforged Crusader/Juggernauts do you think the Lord of Blades has in his employ? ;)

I would say at least one ;)
DarkWarriorKarg
02-28-07, 03:39 PM Crusader: No Remorse? :D
Cifer
02-28-07, 09:23 PM Crusader: No Remorse?
Now I hope you Regret putting that pun there...
Cabral
03-01-07, 12:07 AM not many, I hope....

If he had any, then it might be a bad time for my Shifter Warblade/Barbarian

You know, you could use Martial Study to pick up Devoted maneuvers yourself. ;)

And Martial Stance to pick up stances.

Of course, it takes some heavy feat investments to get something good.
UnderworldLord
03-01-07, 08:19 PM So now the Lobster has two juggernauts that can heal themselves? Jeez, what is the world coming to? *begins planning on how crusader and paladin juggernauts will attack where ever the PCs are going*
Wrathamon
03-01-07, 09:09 PM paladins are LG thou... maybe Gray Guards?
UnderworldLord
03-01-07, 09:10 PM If they can make paladins of Vol, why not Paladins of the LoBster?
Wrathamon
03-01-07, 09:13 PM If they can make paladins of Vol, why not Paladins of the LoBster?

That is why I suggested Gray Guards (prc from scoundrel)

Paladins of Vol I can see making sense - it isnt as hard a stretch.

I could see a paladin of the LoBs being idolistic but hunting down npcs that may "detect as good" might be an issue... so the Gray Guard PRC would help with this imo and make it more believable.

I made a Dread Necromancer Warforged with Tomb Tainted Soul so he could heal himself. Dreadnaught from Karrnath was an NPC the PCs didnt like to face.
The White Sorcerer
03-02-07, 05:16 PM However, one must keep in mind that these things didn't exist whent he rules for the Mournland were written

So? A paladin's lay on hands power works in the Mournland, why shouldn't a crusader's abilities do the same?
Wrathamon
03-02-07, 06:09 PM Crusader can do it while damaging someone... it is more potent.

I think they were trying to give a break to paladins and allow someone with limited healing to be able to help.

Binder btw can heal the best in the mournlands.

It's healing vestige is a supernatural ability not tied to the healing subschool.
Cifer
03-02-07, 07:29 PM I think they were trying to give a break to paladins and allow someone with limited healing to be able to help.
So do druids also need the break or is that just coincidence?
Wrathamon
03-03-07, 12:09 PM yes actually considering "good berries" is a spell rarely cast. Now it is used.
Emeramber
03-03-07, 01:57 PM Actually, I love goodberries, and generally memorize at least one whether a low or high level druid. In the mournlands, I'd have a few more.

The fact of the matter is, the maneuvers aren't equivalent to Conjuration(Healing) unless otherwise indicated (such as the one that is as if Heal). It's established that other non C(H) effects work, so I can't see why it wouldn't, barring of course a GM simply houseruling that it doesn't. Some GMs have already barred Lay on Hands and Goodberry from working, so this should follow suit in their campaigns.
DarkWarriorKarg
03-04-07, 01:19 AM This is an aside, but a psion & a druid , artificer or cleric w/feast domain can do a brisk business selling "goodberry jam" to Mournland adventurers.

It involves using quintessence and goodberry.
Nived
03-04-07, 12:11 PM Nah, Goodberry Wine is better..... because in the Mournland... you're going to need a drink.

On second thought, forget wine... Goodberry Brandy.
Wrathamon
03-04-07, 04:43 PM Actually, I love goodberries, and generally memorize at least one whether a low or high level druid. In the mournlands, I'd have a few more.

5 druid players in my games have rarely cast it. Not to say it isnt a good spell. They only cast it when venturing into the mournlands. So it seems it is only used in Eberron games for my groups. :|

The fact of the matter is, the maneuvers aren't equivalent to Conjuration(Healing) unless otherwise indicated (such as the one that is as if Heal). It's established that other non C(H) effects work, so I can't see why it wouldn't, barring of course a GM simply houseruling that it doesn't. Some GMs have already barred Lay on Hands and Goodberry from working, so this should follow suit in their campaigns.

I never said to not allow it. I think that was someone else. I was just saying that healing and doing damage at the same time can be concidered potent and a DM may want to examine it for balance in their vision of the mournlands.

I personally do not allow any healing except good berries cast on berries found in the mournlands. These berries are a closely guarded secret of certain druids and the goodberry juice that is sold uses these berries (cost is 5x the list price). These berries are in obscure areas and sometimes have strange side effects.

Paladins lay on hands ability is random in that it may work or may not.

but, I like a very scary and harse mournlands.
ArcTan
03-04-07, 08:24 PM paladins are LG thou... maybe Gray Guards?

Gray Guards are also LG. They're just allowed to commit non-LG acts in the service of an LG goal.
UnderworldLord
03-04-07, 08:29 PM I like the flavor of a wf pally/juggernaut serving the LoBster. I take a look at indigo, someone who isn't LG (or dead... something that could always come up later) but didn't see her way as being evil, simply superior.
Wrathamon
03-05-07, 03:34 PM Gray Guards are also LG. They're just allowed to commit non-LG acts in the service of an LG goal.

exactly that is why I could see a LG Grey guard following a Evil religion... they see the good in it but arent going to loose their paladin hood for perfoming non-good services for the Lobster.
AvonRekaes
03-06-07, 12:05 AM Gray Guards are also LG. They're just allowed to commit non-LG acts in the service of an LG goal.

Paladins are allowed to do non LG acts once in a while. They just can't do Evil acts.

Fighting a good person isn't automatically evil. It could just be neutral if both of your causes are for the "greater good", but just different "greater goods". If your LG warforged LoBster pally believes that humans are oppressing his people (And they are, in Thrane and Karnnath, and there are anti-warforged sentiments in the other nations), and fights a Silver Flame pally because that one is working against the plans of the LoBster (which IS building a society in which warforged can live without fear of persecution, a good thing), I would not remove your paladin powers because you are fighting justly for what you believe in (afterall, the Silver Flame IS running one of two nations that openly oppress the warforged).

It's a difference of opinion, but no side is more right than the others. Some of the LoBster's other followers might be more extremist, but you fight honorably. The Silver Flame paladin might be fighting for the good of all but he IS supported by a theocracy that marginalizes it's warforged citizens and does not treat them as free people.
Cabral
03-10-07, 09:29 PM Crusader can do it while damaging someone... it is more potent.
He can only do it while damaging someone ... it is more limited. :)
Trollbasher
03-13-07, 03:40 PM The reason any martial power or stance would work in the mournland normally is because unless otherwise noted they are considered extraodinary powers.
The White Sorcerer
03-16-07, 03:53 PM The reason any martial power or stance would work in the mournland normally is because unless otherwise noted they are considered extraodinary powers.

Actually it's because only natural healing and Conjuration (healing) spells are nonfunctional there.
Augurer
03-21-07, 12:02 PM Is subdual damage recoverable through natural healing in the mournland?

Even if not, isn't the base damage for unarmed combat 1d2 or something? A Crusader could "spar" ... especially if a party member had DR ... and heal the entire party over a few minute period, as statistically the d6+lvl damage would exceed his unarmed dmg.

I can't imagine any DM would allow it, but it seems RAW to me.
Tevin Kevlak
03-21-07, 01:34 PM Unarmed damage for a medium creature is 1d3 + strength of non-lethal damage. Non-lethal damage is healed twice as fast as regular damage aswell, ie if a CLW spell heals for 4 points of damage it would heal 8 points of non-lethal damage.
The White Sorcerer
03-22-07, 01:27 PM Is subdual damage recoverable through natural healing in the mournland?

No natural healing is possible in the Mournland.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Augurer 02-26-07, 02:38 PM	How are the Maneuvers and Stances that provide healing handled in the Mournland? Paladins' Lay on Hands ability circumvents the "no healing" rules, I believe. Is it the same for Crusaders?
Nived 02-26-07, 03:04 PM	Theme vs Rules here. Technically it works because the stances arent' Conjuration (healing) effects, which are what is blocked by the magics of the Mournland. Paladin's Lay on Hands and Druid's Goodberry sells work because they are not Conjuration (healing) they are a supernatural ability and a trasmutation respectively. Similarly the Devoted Spirit maneuvers and stances are not Conjuration (healing) and thus, by a strict reading of the rules would work in the Mournland. However, one must keep in mind that these things didn't exist whent he rules for the Mournland were written, and it's also fair for a DM to simply say 'no' or that for the effect of their game these effects are Conjuration (healing). There's probably something about this in Keith's Eberron Expanded article on Tome of Battle that WotC has still decided not to post.
Wrathamon 02-26-07, 09:09 PM	Warforged Crusader Juggernauts are nasty because of this. they can heal themselves with the devoted spirit stances.
Cabral 02-28-07, 01:04 AM	You don't need to take any crusader levels, you can pick it up via Martial Study and another feat to get the maneveurs and stances you want. :)
Korhal IV 02-28-07, 03:15 AM	Warforged Crusader Juggernauts are nasty because of this. they can heal themselves with the devoted spirit stances. Eek. How many Warforged Crusader/Juggernauts do you think the Lord of Blades has in his employ? ;)
Cambian00 02-28-07, 12:05 PM	not many, I hope.... If he had any, then it might be a bad time for my Shifter Warblade/Barbarian I hope my DM never sees this thread - he might get ideas
Wrathamon 02-28-07, 03:38 PM	Eek. How many Warforged Crusader/Juggernauts do you think the Lord of Blades has in his employ? ;) I would say at least one ;)
DarkWarriorKarg 02-28-07, 03:39 PM	Crusader: No Remorse? :D
Cifer 02-28-07, 09:23 PM	Crusader: No Remorse? Now I hope you Regret putting that pun there...
Cabral 03-01-07, 12:07 AM	not many, I hope.... If he had any, then it might be a bad time for my Shifter Warblade/Barbarian You know, you could use Martial Study to pick up Devoted maneuvers yourself. ;) And Martial Stance to pick up stances. Of course, it takes some heavy feat investments to get something good.
UnderworldLord 03-01-07, 08:19 PM	So now the Lobster has two juggernauts that can heal themselves? Jeez, what is the world coming to? begins planning on how crusader and paladin juggernauts will attack where ever the PCs are going
Wrathamon 03-01-07, 09:09 PM	paladins are LG thou... maybe Gray Guards?
UnderworldLord 03-01-07, 09:10 PM	If they can make paladins of Vol, why not Paladins of the LoBster?
Wrathamon 03-01-07, 09:13 PM	If they can make paladins of Vol, why not Paladins of the LoBster? That is why I suggested Gray Guards (prc from scoundrel) Paladins of Vol I can see making sense - it isnt as hard a stretch. I could see a paladin of the LoBs being idolistic but hunting down npcs that may "detect as good" might be an issue... so the Gray Guard PRC would help with this imo and make it more believable. I made a Dread Necromancer Warforged with Tomb Tainted Soul so he could heal himself. Dreadnaught from Karrnath was an NPC the PCs didnt like to face.
The White Sorcerer 03-02-07, 05:16 PM	However, one must keep in mind that these things didn't exist whent he rules for the Mournland were written So? A paladin's lay on hands power works in the Mournland, why shouldn't a crusader's abilities do the same?
Wrathamon 03-02-07, 06:09 PM	Crusader can do it while damaging someone... it is more potent. I think they were trying to give a break to paladins and allow someone with limited healing to be able to help. Binder btw can heal the best in the mournlands. It's healing vestige is a supernatural ability not tied to the healing subschool.
Cifer 03-02-07, 07:29 PM	I think they were trying to give a break to paladins and allow someone with limited healing to be able to help. So do druids also need the break or is that just coincidence?
Wrathamon 03-03-07, 12:09 PM	yes actually considering "good berries" is a spell rarely cast. Now it is used.
Emeramber 03-03-07, 01:57 PM	Actually, I love goodberries, and generally memorize at least one whether a low or high level druid. In the mournlands, I'd have a few more. The fact of the matter is, the maneuvers aren't equivalent to Conjuration(Healing) unless otherwise indicated (such as the one that is as if Heal). It's established that other non C(H) effects work, so I can't see why it wouldn't, barring of course a GM simply houseruling that it doesn't. Some GMs have already barred Lay on Hands and Goodberry from working, so this should follow suit in their campaigns.
DarkWarriorKarg 03-04-07, 01:19 AM	This is an aside, but a psion & a druid , artificer or cleric w/feast domain can do a brisk business selling "goodberry jam" to Mournland adventurers. It involves using quintessence and goodberry.
Nived 03-04-07, 12:11 PM	Nah, Goodberry Wine is better..... because in the Mournland... you're going to need a drink. On second thought, forget wine... Goodberry Brandy.
Wrathamon 03-04-07, 04:43 PM	Actually, I love goodberries, and generally memorize at least one whether a low or high level druid. In the mournlands, I'd have a few more. 5 druid players in my games have rarely cast it. Not to say it isnt a good spell. They only cast it when venturing into the mournlands. So it seems it is only used in Eberron games for my groups. :\| The fact of the matter is, the maneuvers aren't equivalent to Conjuration(Healing) unless otherwise indicated (such as the one that is as if Heal). It's established that other non C(H) effects work, so I can't see why it wouldn't, barring of course a GM simply houseruling that it doesn't. Some GMs have already barred Lay on Hands and Goodberry from working, so this should follow suit in their campaigns. I never said to not allow it. I think that was someone else. I was just saying that healing and doing damage at the same time can be concidered potent and a DM may want to examine it for balance in their vision of the mournlands. I personally do not allow any healing except good berries cast on berries found in the mournlands. These berries are a closely guarded secret of certain druids and the goodberry juice that is sold uses these berries (cost is 5x the list price). These berries are in obscure areas and sometimes have strange side effects. Paladins lay on hands ability is random in that it may work or may not. but, I like a very scary and harse mournlands.
ArcTan 03-04-07, 08:24 PM	paladins are LG thou... maybe Gray Guards? Gray Guards are also LG. They're just allowed to commit non-LG acts in the service of an LG goal.
UnderworldLord 03-04-07, 08:29 PM	I like the flavor of a wf pally/juggernaut serving the LoBster. I take a look at indigo, someone who isn't LG (or dead... something that could always come up later) but didn't see her way as being evil, simply superior.
Wrathamon 03-05-07, 03:34 PM	Gray Guards are also LG. They're just allowed to commit non-LG acts in the service of an LG goal. exactly that is why I could see a LG Grey guard following a Evil religion... they see the good in it but arent going to loose their paladin hood for perfoming non-good services for the Lobster.
AvonRekaes 03-06-07, 12:05 AM	Gray Guards are also LG. They're just allowed to commit non-LG acts in the service of an LG goal. Paladins are allowed to do non LG acts once in a while. They just can't do Evil acts. Fighting a good person isn't automatically evil. It could just be neutral if both of your causes are for the "greater good", but just different "greater goods". If your LG warforged LoBster pally believes that humans are oppressing his people (And they are, in Thrane and Karnnath, and there are anti-warforged sentiments in the other nations), and fights a Silver Flame pally because that one is working against the plans of the LoBster (which IS building a society in which warforged can live without fear of persecution, a good thing), I would not remove your paladin powers because you are fighting justly for what you believe in (afterall, the Silver Flame IS running one of two nations that openly oppress the warforged). It's a difference of opinion, but no side is more right than the others. Some of the LoBster's other followers might be more extremist, but you fight honorably. The Silver Flame paladin might be fighting for the good of all but he IS supported by a theocracy that marginalizes it's warforged citizens and does not treat them as free people.
Cabral 03-10-07, 09:29 PM	Crusader can do it while damaging someone... it is more potent. He can only do it while damaging someone ... it is more limited. :)
Trollbasher 03-13-07, 03:40 PM	The reason any martial power or stance would work in the mournland normally is because unless otherwise noted they are considered extraodinary powers.
The White Sorcerer 03-16-07, 03:53 PM	The reason any martial power or stance would work in the mournland normally is because unless otherwise noted they are considered extraodinary powers. Actually it's because only natural healing and Conjuration (healing) spells are nonfunctional there.
Augurer 03-21-07, 12:02 PM	Is subdual damage recoverable through natural healing in the mournland? Even if not, isn't the base damage for unarmed combat 1d2 or something? A Crusader could "spar" ... especially if a party member had DR ... and heal the entire party over a few minute period, as statistically the d6+lvl damage would exceed his unarmed dmg. I can't imagine any DM would allow it, but it seems RAW to me.
Tevin Kevlak 03-21-07, 01:34 PM	Unarmed damage for a medium creature is 1d3 + strength of non-lethal damage. Non-lethal damage is healed twice as fast as regular damage aswell, ie if a CLW spell heals for 4 points of damage it would heal 8 points of non-lethal damage.
The White Sorcerer 03-22-07, 01:27 PM	Is subdual damage recoverable through natural healing in the mournland? No natural healing is possible in the Mournland.