Devils and Demons in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Devils and Demons in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Romulus LoneWolf
02-22-07, 10:25 PM Considering that Devils and Demons aren't cohesive groups in Eberron's cosmology, I'm just wondering how one would explain the existance of Outsiders with similar subtypes in Dolurrh, Shavarath, Fernia, Risia and Mabar..

Are the Succubi of Mabar connected in any way to the Glabrezu of Shavarath and the Nalfeshnee of Dolurrh? Are the Pit Fiends of Fernia related to the Gelugons of Risia and the Hell Cats of Lamannia?

What about their Tanar'ri and Baatezu subtypes? Do they mean anything? Would it be possible to just drop the subtypes to make them all seperate fiendish races?

It's just something I'm curious about...
Darth Syntax
02-22-07, 10:52 PM I generally ignore the subtypes in the Eberron cosmology and replace them with a plane-appropriate subtype as necessary. The Devil's on Shavarrath can't summon a Pit Fiend from Fernia or a Gelugon from Risia. They can, however summon any of their diabolic hosts of their own plane. Similarly Pit Fiends can summon Ifrit (as both are Fernian natives, and in my imagining of the plane are close allies).

Generally speaking, I have made it so that the natives of a given Plane are inherently more related to each other than they are to supposedly similar natives of other planes. So the Archons of Shavarrath are more closely related to the Shavarrathan Fiends than they are to, say, the Syranian Angles (and the Archons and the Angles do not get along at all, as each finds the other to be distasteful).
SSj3goblin
02-23-07, 11:29 AM When will we finally get a Planes of Eberron book?
Yakman
02-23-07, 11:57 AM When will we finally get a Planes of Eberron book?
When will people give up on the whole "Great Wheel" setup?
Romulus LoneWolf
02-23-07, 05:42 PM I generally ignore the subtypes in the Eberron cosmology and replace them with a plane-appropriate subtype as necessary. The Devil's on Shavarrath can't summon a Pit Fiend from Fernia or a Gelugon from Risia. They can, however summon any of their diabolic hosts of their own plane. Similarly Pit Fiends can summon Ifrit (as both are Fernian natives, and in my imagining of the plane are close allies).

Generally speaking, I have made it so that the natives of a given Plane are inherently more related to each other than they are to supposedly similar natives of other planes. So the Archons of Shavarrath are more closely related to the Shavarrathan Fiends than they are to, say, the Syranian Angles (and the Archons and the Angles do not get along at all, as each finds the other to be distasteful).

I like your ideas, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter...

I also agree that the Planar/Outsider set-up of Eberron doesn't warrant using references to the Great Wheel, including default Devil/Demon subtype abilities.

Fortunetly, looking through FCII: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, I saw a good replacement idea for the summoning ability: the Brand of the Nine Hells and the "Mark of..." Feats. Looking at them in the book, they could easily be adapted to working for the Eberron planes.

For exemple, Brand of Nine Hells (Mephistopheles), which grants an aura of flames, would work well for Fiends from Fernia, while Brand of Nine Hells (Leistus), which grants an icey armor, would be perfect for Fiends from Risia. And adapting the "Mark of..." to fit the planes would also work, as would other replacement Feats...
Darth Syntax
02-24-07, 03:04 AM I haven't had a chance to look over the Fiendish Codices as much as I would like, so I can't comment on the "Mark of X" feats, but from your description it seems like it might be something to look into.
mhacdebhandia
02-24-07, 04:47 PM Keith Baker has also suggested - most recently, in his conversion notes for Dungeon's Savage Tide adventure path - that Khyber is really a world within the world, full of the realms of powerful native demons which actually incorporate more space than there literally would be within Eberron, and that while rakshasa are the most common native fiends of Eberron, the children of Khyber are diverse and include all of the different types of fiends found on the planes.

He also suggests that Khyber is the place where the demon princes and archdevils of core D&D's Great Wheel can be found - so perhaps Khyber contains at least something of the familiar hierarchies of the Abyss and Baator, but they would be completely peculiar to the personal realms of these powerful fiends (who would rank above the Lords of Dust but below the overlords of the Age of Demons).

To quote directly from the conversion notes, where this concept is explained:

Legends say that in the dawn of time, the vile dragon Khyber spawned fiends in the darkness, monsters that tormented the children of Eberron. The rakshasas are the best-known native fiends, and to this day it is the rakshasa that have the strongest presence in the world above. But Khyber’s children take many forms, and there is nothing preventing the Dragon Below from creating its own variations of the spirits found in Shavarath and Fernia. Balors, mariliths, and even demon princes; all could be children of Khyber. Like the rakshasas, these Khyber-spawned demons are native outsiders, but they possess most traits of true outsiders; they do not need to eat or sleep, they are immune to the ravages of time, and the most powerful among them are truly immortal.

As spawn of Khyber, the demons of Eberron are not tied to any planar agenda, nor bound to the great war of Shavarath. Instead, they embody Khyber’s wrath and hatred of the world above. They seek to corrupt and destroy the children of Eberron. Some may seek to free the Overlords of the Age of Demons, and these fiends usually join with the Lords of Dust. But many are spirits of pure chaos and evil, and seek only the pleasure of sowing discord and pain across Eberron.

Spoilers for the Savage Tide adventure path:

The specific example given is Demogorgon, Prince of Demons, the ultimate villain of the adventure path. His realm, called the Gaping Maw, is one of the demiplanes within Khyber, and travelling there requires the same sort of planar magic one would use to reach the true planes.
Romulus LoneWolf
02-24-07, 05:51 PM Interesting concept. And if one really wants to make a Fernian Balor different a Khyber Balor, there's always the addition of Templates...
AvonRekaes
02-24-07, 07:33 PM In my games, I haven't really had to deal with it too much. I didn't even think to convert various fiends' summoning lists, so I'll definately have to take a look at that.

In my game though, I keep their subtypes, as they're important for denoting basic abilities shared by certain families of demons (tanar'ri, obyrith, loumara) and devils.

As such, in my game, all tanar'ri demons are labeled as such because Morenous Tanar'ri, great planar sage of the Arcane Congress, discovered the shared traits of various demonic fiends strewn about the outer planes. Similar discoveries can be attributed to Zoman Baatezu, Derius Obyrith, and Olivia Loumara.

Since the discoveries, if a new species of fiend is discovered, they are categorized under these four labels depending on what traits they possess.
Darth Syntax
02-24-07, 11:25 PM On the issue of the native fiends of Khyber

Although the whole "hollow world" aspect of Khyber is cool and quite flavorful, I must disagree with having those outsiders which are explicitly part of the planes being equally native to Khyber. Any true native of Khyber is going to have to be some form of native outsider unique to that environment. Fiends such as Pit Fiends and Balors are embodiments of Fernia, and have no business being in Khyber, unless they became trapped there by means of stumbling through a manifest zone, or are there on some task that will further their agendas on their home plane. Even then they will probably confine themselves to the hottest regions they can find, so they might find a way back home.

Eberron is a hostile environment to Outsiders (of the non native type). They do not deal well with the ontological dualism of the place and it makes them confused, sluggish, and generally ill. This part of the reason the Daelkyr are still down in Khyber; Eberron acts like an anti-psychotic on them, they don't think straight (or rather in the fashion they prefer), they are lethargic, listless, and unhappy. Even for all that they remain dangerous, but woe to the mortal who finds a Daelkyr at the height of it's mental powers. In addition, Fernians would find Eberron to be painfully cold and Risians would find it searingly hot. Barring some great need, or some form of exile, Outsiders tend to stay away from Eberron. Those that do come to the World are either well protected from its hostilities, or they suffer.

Now, this does not mean that there aren't all manner of evil things crawling around in Khyber. New kinds of Rhakshasa are to be found below, as are hags and creatures for which the people of the surface have no names. The evil of Khyber and the evil of the planes are both evil, but they are of wholly different shapes and forms.
Romulus LoneWolf
02-24-07, 11:35 PM Well, an easy fix for that could be twofold..

#1, the Khyber outsiders could be natives of Other planes, imprisonned in Khyber for so long, they've "gone native" so to speak.

#2, use the basic statistics, but change some details and alter the description, and behold, you've got a New Fiend!
SSj3goblin
02-24-07, 11:44 PM One of the idea that struck me while reading this thread was that while Archons, Baatezu and Tannar'ri all have a niche in the cosmology, there is no mention of the Obyriths.
Since they are already, in "core/generic/greyhawk", primordial demons. I'd make them the other spawns of Khyber, who still live underground.

By the way, does FC:II have anything comparable to the Obyriths but for devils?
Darth Syntax
02-24-07, 11:49 PM Curse you Sir (or Madame or Respectful Androgyn) and your simple solution! You are ruining my overly complex, joyfully rule ignoring, view of the Planes of Eberron.

Anywho, those ideas could indeed work, although I generally rule that Outsiders that 'go native' as you put it end up going the way of the Radiant Idol; becoming a wholly new kind of being. Indeed, Idols were important in my formulation of the nature of Outsiders in Eberron.

I would probably go about inventing new Native Fiends for Eberron, or using some of those that are not explicitly said to be native to the Planes. Chain Devils', as far as I know, are not mentioned as being native to the Planes, so they might do well in Khyber. Just make them Native Outsiders.
mhacdebhandia
02-25-07, 10:00 PM Now, this does not mean that there aren't all manner of evil things crawling around in Khyber. New kinds of Rhakshasa are to be found below, as are hags and creatures for which the people of the surface have no names. The evil of Khyber and the evil of the planes are both evil, but they are of wholly different shapes and forms.
It's your prerogative to run the setting in this manner, but I really like Keith Baker's take: Khyber has spawned all manner of fiends. They don't belong on Eberron, certainly, but the idea of an immense amount of extradimensional space within Khyber, rather than a regular subterranean underdark or even a simple hollow world, really catches my imagination.

It's also a great way to use classic planar locations, like the realms of various demon lords, without altering the "geography" of Eberron's planes.
Darth Syntax
02-25-07, 11:11 PM Oh I like the whole "impossible space" of Khyber, that is not what I find unappealing; rather it is the use of various Extraplanar Outsiders on the material planes. I would rather see a wholly new set of native evils with agendas and personalities unique to Eberron, and very much a part of it's unique history. I don't like the idea of Mephistopheles in Eberron (despite the fact that I like Mephistopheles in Planescape, and as a character in Faust) because his presence in the setting would, I believe, damage the uniqueness of the Eberron setting.

Now, I have no problem with the Rhajas, I rather like them; but they are beings that belong to Eberron and Eberron alone. Where is the fun in rehashing the Archfiends when one could create wholly new, and infinitely more horrible beings to inhabit the deep passages of Khyber?

Now I love Planescape dearly, the politics, the powers, the clueless primes . . . But I would like to keep my Planescape and my Eberron as unique places, with their own internal logic. Blending them by incorporating named entities from either setting in the other makes each lose a bit of it's uniqueness.
mhacdebhandia
02-25-07, 11:52 PM I don't intend to blend too much Planescape into Eberron. The Savage Tide conversion notes are a good enough alteration for me: Demogorgon being described as a powerful spirit of the Age of Demons, but still very different from his Greyhawk/Planescape position as Prince of Demons and most powerful being in the Abyss is fine by me.
Romulus LoneWolf
02-26-07, 12:27 AM Yeah, there are ways to use the stats and basic personalities of classic Archfiends, while divorcing them from the Planescape/Great Wheel cliches..

For exemple, Orcus could be converted into a servant of the overlord Katashka, while Yeenoghu could be a powerful demon trying to corrupt the Gnolls of Droaam...
Darth Syntax
02-26-07, 01:03 AM It may just be me, but if I encountered a baboon-headed fiend named Demogorgon in Eberron, I would be both confused as disappointed. The names and appearances of these classic beings can't really be divorced from their associated history, flavor, and the like. To me, a known name takes a bit of the mystery out of the world. It would be a bit like having an imposing, bearded fellow named Zeus, who wore a chiton, slept around, and flung lightening, show up in the world, but with only minor alterations. Old names and old faces are somewhat predicable, and where is the terror, the horror in that?

The Dragon article which presented some of the fiends of the age of demons is more along the lines of what I would like to see in the setting. New evils, Eberron evils. The setting has so many unique and terrifying ancient evils, it would be a bit of a shame to drop in a generic evil.

Now, I would be fine with making use of the stats of some of the already existing archfiends, but give them new names, new faces, new agendas (and maybe some new allies and powers); make them a part of the world.

Ancient Evils aren't just obstacles for the players, they would be part of the mythology, the legends, the tales told to keep children quite at night. The more that the creatures of Khyber are a part of the world, regardless of the actions of the players, the more 'real' their threats will become.
Romulus LoneWolf
02-26-07, 03:46 PM About the concern of having Balors (or other extraplanar fiends) in Khyber, I think the main thing to consider is that you don't just put in any ol' Fiend in Khyber without first taking the time to think "Why is it there?"

Here are, off the top of my head, 4 reasons why you might find a Balor in Khyber.

#1: Prisonner - This Balor comes from Fernia, and never asked to land in Khyber in the first place, but just try telling that to the Coualt who sent it there. Now it seeks to break the binding spell that keeps him imprisonned in the underworld to return to Fernia. ...And it doesn't care if it has to destroy all Eberron in the process...

#2: Servant - An Ak'Chazar Rakshasa Sorceror called this Balor to Khyber and bound it to his service as a bodyguard and enforcer, sending it forth to destroy the enemies of the Lords of Dust. ...And unfortunetly, you qualify.

#3: Victim - It's hard to feel sorry for an incarnation of firey evil, but considering this Balor is a prisonner of the Daelkyr, it's hard not to. Especially since it's both a forced donor of bodyparts for Fiendish Grafts, and a recipient of Aberrant Grafts, all part of Daelkyr experiments in blending Fiend and Aberration. It begs you to free it, so it can help you destroy the Daelkyr servants who tortured it. A tempting offer, but can you trust it?

#4: Lord of Dust - Not every Lord of Dust is a Rakshasa. Dragon #337 by Keith Baker introduced us to two members of the Lords of Dust Council with different origins: Korliac of the Grey Flame is a mad Pit Fiend of Fernia who travelled to Eberron in search of forbidden knowledge, and Thelestes the Velvet Blade is a succubus who fled from Mabar to escape a blood feud, and seeks to free the Rajahs to gain the power to avenge herself. A Balor could join the Lords of Dust out of a desire for more Power.
Darth Syntax
02-26-07, 04:10 PM I agree with all of your reasons, I like them, they make sense. The point I was trying to convey is that Balor, Pit Fiends, and the like originate on Fernia and nowhere else and that they are not also native to Khyber. Some may indeed be down there, as slaves, as prisoners, or possibly of their own will. I would, however, add that it seems more than likely (given the example of the radiant Idol) that before long these Extraplanar Fiends will begin to change into a new sort of being, it will evolve and adapt to Eberron. Now if our Balor hangs around in a Fernian manifest zone, it will hold out much longer, but without regular bathing in its native planar energies, it will change. I shudder to think what they might become . . .

Beings from the Planes would be the exception in Khyber, there are probably only a comparative handful of them when the numbers of natives are taken into account.
Romulus LoneWolf
02-26-07, 05:36 PM I agree on that point, Darth. A Khyber-born Balor would be a good excuse to add a template to the basic Balor monster, like the Pseudo-Natural template.

And, of course, there are more then enough Fiends and Various Monsters in numerous WotC and Third-party sourcebooks to fill up Khyber more then ten times over...
mhacdebhandia
02-28-07, 07:55 AM It may just be me, but if I encountered a baboon-headed fiend named Demogorgon in Eberron, I would be both confused as disappointed.
I don't know if I would be using the name Demogorgon in Eberron if the majority of my players weren't relatively new to the setting and to D&D in general.
mightyix
02-28-07, 01:33 PM When will people give up on the whole "Great Wheel" setup?

I haven't given up on seeing a 3.5 Planescape yet. :invasion:
oneiromorph
03-01-07, 11:51 PM I haven't given up on seeing a 3.5 Planescape yet. :invasion:

Planescape is too cool to give up on. Though I just use C&C to run it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Romulus LoneWolf 02-22-07, 10:25 PM	Considering that Devils and Demons aren't cohesive groups in Eberron's cosmology, I'm just wondering how one would explain the existance of Outsiders with similar subtypes in Dolurrh, Shavarath, Fernia, Risia and Mabar.. Are the Succubi of Mabar connected in any way to the Glabrezu of Shavarath and the Nalfeshnee of Dolurrh? Are the Pit Fiends of Fernia related to the Gelugons of Risia and the Hell Cats of Lamannia? What about their Tanar'ri and Baatezu subtypes? Do they mean anything? Would it be possible to just drop the subtypes to make them all seperate fiendish races? It's just something I'm curious about...
Darth Syntax 02-22-07, 10:52 PM	I generally ignore the subtypes in the Eberron cosmology and replace them with a plane-appropriate subtype as necessary. The Devil's on Shavarrath can't summon a Pit Fiend from Fernia or a Gelugon from Risia. They can, however summon any of their diabolic hosts of their own plane. Similarly Pit Fiends can summon Ifrit (as both are Fernian natives, and in my imagining of the plane are close allies). Generally speaking, I have made it so that the natives of a given Plane are inherently more related to each other than they are to supposedly similar natives of other planes. So the Archons of Shavarrath are more closely related to the Shavarrathan Fiends than they are to, say, the Syranian Angles (and the Archons and the Angles do not get along at all, as each finds the other to be distasteful).
SSj3goblin 02-23-07, 11:29 AM	When will we finally get a Planes of Eberron book?
Yakman 02-23-07, 11:57 AM	When will we finally get a Planes of Eberron book? When will people give up on the whole "Great Wheel" setup?
Romulus LoneWolf 02-23-07, 05:42 PM	I generally ignore the subtypes in the Eberron cosmology and replace them with a plane-appropriate subtype as necessary. The Devil's on Shavarrath can't summon a Pit Fiend from Fernia or a Gelugon from Risia. They can, however summon any of their diabolic hosts of their own plane. Similarly Pit Fiends can summon Ifrit (as both are Fernian natives, and in my imagining of the plane are close allies). Generally speaking, I have made it so that the natives of a given Plane are inherently more related to each other than they are to supposedly similar natives of other planes. So the Archons of Shavarrath are more closely related to the Shavarrathan Fiends than they are to, say, the Syranian Angles (and the Archons and the Angles do not get along at all, as each finds the other to be distasteful). I like your ideas, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter... I also agree that the Planar/Outsider set-up of Eberron doesn't warrant using references to the Great Wheel, including default Devil/Demon subtype abilities. Fortunetly, looking through FCII: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, I saw a good replacement idea for the summoning ability: the Brand of the Nine Hells and the "Mark of..." Feats. Looking at them in the book, they could easily be adapted to working for the Eberron planes. For exemple, Brand of Nine Hells (Mephistopheles), which grants an aura of flames, would work well for Fiends from Fernia, while Brand of Nine Hells (Leistus), which grants an icey armor, would be perfect for Fiends from Risia. And adapting the "Mark of..." to fit the planes would also work, as would other replacement Feats...
Darth Syntax 02-24-07, 03:04 AM	I haven't had a chance to look over the Fiendish Codices as much as I would like, so I can't comment on the "Mark of X" feats, but from your description it seems like it might be something to look into.
mhacdebhandia 02-24-07, 04:47 PM	Keith Baker has also suggested - most recently, in his conversion notes for Dungeon's Savage Tide adventure path - that Khyber is really a world within the world, full of the realms of powerful native demons which actually incorporate more space than there literally would be within Eberron, and that while rakshasa are the most common native fiends of Eberron, the children of Khyber are diverse and include all of the different types of fiends found on the planes. He also suggests that Khyber is the place where the demon princes and archdevils of core D&D's Great Wheel can be found - so perhaps Khyber contains at least something of the familiar hierarchies of the Abyss and Baator, but they would be completely peculiar to the personal realms of these powerful fiends (who would rank above the Lords of Dust but below the overlords of the Age of Demons). To quote directly from the conversion notes, where this concept is explained: Legends say that in the dawn of time, the vile dragon Khyber spawned fiends in the darkness, monsters that tormented the children of Eberron. The rakshasas are the best-known native fiends, and to this day it is the rakshasa that have the strongest presence in the world above. But Khyber’s children take many forms, and there is nothing preventing the Dragon Below from creating its own variations of the spirits found in Shavarath and Fernia. Balors, mariliths, and even demon princes; all could be children of Khyber. Like the rakshasas, these Khyber-spawned demons are native outsiders, but they possess most traits of true outsiders; they do not need to eat or sleep, they are immune to the ravages of time, and the most powerful among them are truly immortal. As spawn of Khyber, the demons of Eberron are not tied to any planar agenda, nor bound to the great war of Shavarath. Instead, they embody Khyber’s wrath and hatred of the world above. They seek to corrupt and destroy the children of Eberron. Some may seek to free the Overlords of the Age of Demons, and these fiends usually join with the Lords of Dust. But many are spirits of pure chaos and evil, and seek only the pleasure of sowing discord and pain across Eberron. Spoilers for the Savage Tide adventure path: The specific example given is Demogorgon, Prince of Demons, the ultimate villain of the adventure path. His realm, called the Gaping Maw, is one of the demiplanes within Khyber, and travelling there requires the same sort of planar magic one would use to reach the true planes.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-24-07, 05:51 PM	Interesting concept. And if one really wants to make a Fernian Balor different a Khyber Balor, there's always the addition of Templates...
AvonRekaes 02-24-07, 07:33 PM	In my games, I haven't really had to deal with it too much. I didn't even think to convert various fiends' summoning lists, so I'll definately have to take a look at that. In my game though, I keep their subtypes, as they're important for denoting basic abilities shared by certain families of demons (tanar'ri, obyrith, loumara) and devils. As such, in my game, all tanar'ri demons are labeled as such because Morenous Tanar'ri, great planar sage of the Arcane Congress, discovered the shared traits of various demonic fiends strewn about the outer planes. Similar discoveries can be attributed to Zoman Baatezu, Derius Obyrith, and Olivia Loumara. Since the discoveries, if a new species of fiend is discovered, they are categorized under these four labels depending on what traits they possess.
Darth Syntax 02-24-07, 11:25 PM	On the issue of the native fiends of Khyber Although the whole "hollow world" aspect of Khyber is cool and quite flavorful, I must disagree with having those outsiders which are explicitly part of the planes being equally native to Khyber. Any true native of Khyber is going to have to be some form of native outsider unique to that environment. Fiends such as Pit Fiends and Balors are embodiments of Fernia, and have no business being in Khyber, unless they became trapped there by means of stumbling through a manifest zone, or are there on some task that will further their agendas on their home plane. Even then they will probably confine themselves to the hottest regions they can find, so they might find a way back home. Eberron is a hostile environment to Outsiders (of the non native type). They do not deal well with the ontological dualism of the place and it makes them confused, sluggish, and generally ill. This part of the reason the Daelkyr are still down in Khyber; Eberron acts like an anti-psychotic on them, they don't think straight (or rather in the fashion they prefer), they are lethargic, listless, and unhappy. Even for all that they remain dangerous, but woe to the mortal who finds a Daelkyr at the height of it's mental powers. In addition, Fernians would find Eberron to be painfully cold and Risians would find it searingly hot. Barring some great need, or some form of exile, Outsiders tend to stay away from Eberron. Those that do come to the World are either well protected from its hostilities, or they suffer. Now, this does not mean that there aren't all manner of evil things crawling around in Khyber. New kinds of Rhakshasa are to be found below, as are hags and creatures for which the people of the surface have no names. The evil of Khyber and the evil of the planes are both evil, but they are of wholly different shapes and forms.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-24-07, 11:35 PM	Well, an easy fix for that could be twofold.. #1, the Khyber outsiders could be natives of Other planes, imprisonned in Khyber for so long, they've "gone native" so to speak. #2, use the basic statistics, but change some details and alter the description, and behold, you've got a New Fiend!
SSj3goblin 02-24-07, 11:44 PM	One of the idea that struck me while reading this thread was that while Archons, Baatezu and Tannar'ri all have a niche in the cosmology, there is no mention of the Obyriths. Since they are already, in "core/generic/greyhawk", primordial demons. I'd make them the other spawns of Khyber, who still live underground. By the way, does FC:II have anything comparable to the Obyriths but for devils?
Darth Syntax 02-24-07, 11:49 PM	Curse you Sir (or Madame or Respectful Androgyn) and your simple solution! You are ruining my overly complex, joyfully rule ignoring, view of the Planes of Eberron. Anywho, those ideas could indeed work, although I generally rule that Outsiders that 'go native' as you put it end up going the way of the Radiant Idol; becoming a wholly new kind of being. Indeed, Idols were important in my formulation of the nature of Outsiders in Eberron. I would probably go about inventing new Native Fiends for Eberron, or using some of those that are not explicitly said to be native to the Planes. Chain Devils', as far as I know, are not mentioned as being native to the Planes, so they might do well in Khyber. Just make them Native Outsiders.
mhacdebhandia 02-25-07, 10:00 PM	Now, this does not mean that there aren't all manner of evil things crawling around in Khyber. New kinds of Rhakshasa are to be found below, as are hags and creatures for which the people of the surface have no names. The evil of Khyber and the evil of the planes are both evil, but they are of wholly different shapes and forms. It's your prerogative to run the setting in this manner, but I really like Keith Baker's take: Khyber has spawned all manner of fiends. They don't belong on Eberron, certainly, but the idea of an immense amount of extradimensional space within Khyber, rather than a regular subterranean underdark or even a simple hollow world, really catches my imagination. It's also a great way to use classic planar locations, like the realms of various demon lords, without altering the "geography" of Eberron's planes.
Darth Syntax 02-25-07, 11:11 PM	Oh I like the whole "impossible space" of Khyber, that is not what I find unappealing; rather it is the use of various Extraplanar Outsiders on the material planes. I would rather see a wholly new set of native evils with agendas and personalities unique to Eberron, and very much a part of it's unique history. I don't like the idea of Mephistopheles in Eberron (despite the fact that I like Mephistopheles in Planescape, and as a character in Faust) because his presence in the setting would, I believe, damage the uniqueness of the Eberron setting. Now, I have no problem with the Rhajas, I rather like them; but they are beings that belong to Eberron and Eberron alone. Where is the fun in rehashing the Archfiends when one could create wholly new, and infinitely more horrible beings to inhabit the deep passages of Khyber? Now I love Planescape dearly, the politics, the powers, the clueless primes . . . But I would like to keep my Planescape and my Eberron as unique places, with their own internal logic. Blending them by incorporating named entities from either setting in the other makes each lose a bit of it's uniqueness.
mhacdebhandia 02-25-07, 11:52 PM	I don't intend to blend too much Planescape into Eberron. The Savage Tide conversion notes are a good enough alteration for me: Demogorgon being described as a powerful spirit of the Age of Demons, but still very different from his Greyhawk/Planescape position as Prince of Demons and most powerful being in the Abyss is fine by me.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-26-07, 12:27 AM	Yeah, there are ways to use the stats and basic personalities of classic Archfiends, while divorcing them from the Planescape/Great Wheel cliches.. For exemple, Orcus could be converted into a servant of the overlord Katashka, while Yeenoghu could be a powerful demon trying to corrupt the Gnolls of Droaam...
Darth Syntax 02-26-07, 01:03 AM	It may just be me, but if I encountered a baboon-headed fiend named Demogorgon in Eberron, I would be both confused as disappointed. The names and appearances of these classic beings can't really be divorced from their associated history, flavor, and the like. To me, a known name takes a bit of the mystery out of the world. It would be a bit like having an imposing, bearded fellow named Zeus, who wore a chiton, slept around, and flung lightening, show up in the world, but with only minor alterations. Old names and old faces are somewhat predicable, and where is the terror, the horror in that? The Dragon article which presented some of the fiends of the age of demons is more along the lines of what I would like to see in the setting. New evils, Eberron evils. The setting has so many unique and terrifying ancient evils, it would be a bit of a shame to drop in a generic evil. Now, I would be fine with making use of the stats of some of the already existing archfiends, but give them new names, new faces, new agendas (and maybe some new allies and powers); make them a part of the world. Ancient Evils aren't just obstacles for the players, they would be part of the mythology, the legends, the tales told to keep children quite at night. The more that the creatures of Khyber are a part of the world, regardless of the actions of the players, the more 'real' their threats will become.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-26-07, 03:46 PM	About the concern of having Balors (or other extraplanar fiends) in Khyber, I think the main thing to consider is that you don't just put in any ol' Fiend in Khyber without first taking the time to think "Why is it there?" Here are, off the top of my head, 4 reasons why you might find a Balor in Khyber. #1: Prisonner - This Balor comes from Fernia, and never asked to land in Khyber in the first place, but just try telling that to the Coualt who sent it there. Now it seeks to break the binding spell that keeps him imprisonned in the underworld to return to Fernia. ...And it doesn't care if it has to destroy all Eberron in the process... #2: Servant - An Ak'Chazar Rakshasa Sorceror called this Balor to Khyber and bound it to his service as a bodyguard and enforcer, sending it forth to destroy the enemies of the Lords of Dust. ...And unfortunetly, you qualify. #3: Victim - It's hard to feel sorry for an incarnation of firey evil, but considering this Balor is a prisonner of the Daelkyr, it's hard not to. Especially since it's both a forced donor of bodyparts for Fiendish Grafts, and a recipient of Aberrant Grafts, all part of Daelkyr experiments in blending Fiend and Aberration. It begs you to free it, so it can help you destroy the Daelkyr servants who tortured it. A tempting offer, but can you trust it? #4: Lord of Dust - Not every Lord of Dust is a Rakshasa. Dragon #337 by Keith Baker introduced us to two members of the Lords of Dust Council with different origins: Korliac of the Grey Flame is a mad Pit Fiend of Fernia who travelled to Eberron in search of forbidden knowledge, and Thelestes the Velvet Blade is a succubus who fled from Mabar to escape a blood feud, and seeks to free the Rajahs to gain the power to avenge herself. A Balor could join the Lords of Dust out of a desire for more Power.
Darth Syntax 02-26-07, 04:10 PM	I agree with all of your reasons, I like them, they make sense. The point I was trying to convey is that Balor, Pit Fiends, and the like originate on Fernia and nowhere else and that they are not also native to Khyber. Some may indeed be down there, as slaves, as prisoners, or possibly of their own will. I would, however, add that it seems more than likely (given the example of the radiant Idol) that before long these Extraplanar Fiends will begin to change into a new sort of being, it will evolve and adapt to Eberron. Now if our Balor hangs around in a Fernian manifest zone, it will hold out much longer, but without regular bathing in its native planar energies, it will change. I shudder to think what they might become . . . Beings from the Planes would be the exception in Khyber, there are probably only a comparative handful of them when the numbers of natives are taken into account.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-26-07, 05:36 PM	I agree on that point, Darth. A Khyber-born Balor would be a good excuse to add a template to the basic Balor monster, like the Pseudo-Natural template. And, of course, there are more then enough Fiends and Various Monsters in numerous WotC and Third-party sourcebooks to fill up Khyber more then ten times over...
mhacdebhandia 02-28-07, 07:55 AM	It may just be me, but if I encountered a baboon-headed fiend named Demogorgon in Eberron, I would be both confused as disappointed. I don't know if I would be using the name Demogorgon in Eberron if the majority of my players weren't relatively new to the setting and to D&D in general.
mightyix 02-28-07, 01:33 PM	When will people give up on the whole "Great Wheel" setup? I haven't given up on seeing a 3.5 Planescape yet. :invasion:
oneiromorph 03-01-07, 11:51 PM	I haven't given up on seeing a 3.5 Planescape yet. :invasion: Planescape is too cool to give up on. Though I just use C&C to run it.