Divine Magic Rebalance [Archive] - Wizards Community

Divine Magic Rebalance [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
OctaviusIII
09-22-07, 05:22 PM An issue has come up in the campaign I'm in, namely between myself, a cleric, and our party wizard. I've been mining the spell compendium and other books for new spells for myself which, as a cleric, I get automatically.

Our wizard can't do this, as each new spell costs money to scribe and time to learn. He's further hobbled by the fact that arcane spellcasters require a minimum 8 hours of rest before preparing spells, while divine casters don't. So, my DM and I are considering rebalancing things a bit.

Our idea, for the moment, is to allow me to only get spells from the PHB, ECS and Magic of Eberron automatically, plus Light spells from other sources (it's a flavor thing). I was thinking that learning a new spell would require me to scribe it into a prayer book, which would take 24 hours but not extra money. Any other ideas?
JulesCARV
09-22-07, 11:20 PM On possibility (I can't remember where I first saw it, but I feel sure that this idea is not original to me) -- as a cleric, you can develop a custom spell list from Spell Compendium, but the total number of spells you know is the same as in the PHB. If you want to learn a Spell Compendium spell, you have to lose a PHB spell from your list. For instance, if you want your cleric to be able to cast Lesser Vigor, you might have to trade out the ability to cast Curse Water or some other level 1 cleric spell. So, for instance, a cleric's spell list, regardless of source, has a limit of 30 level 1 spells, 32 level 2 spells, 33 level 3 spells, 11 level 9 spells, etc. (Counting all of the spells in the PHB is kinda boring, though, so in practice it's probably easier to just treat it as starting with the PHB spell list and then swapping out a PHB spell for a SC spell.)
Alex_
09-24-07, 02:48 PM An issue has come up in the campaign I'm in, namely between myself, a cleric, and our party wizard. I've been mining the spell compendium and other books for new spells for myself which, as a cleric, I get automatically.

Our wizard can't do this, as each new spell costs money to scribe and time to learn. He's further hobbled by the fact that arcane spellcasters require a minimum 8 hours of rest before preparing spells, while divine casters don't. So, my DM and I are considering rebalancing things a bit.

Our idea, for the moment, is to allow me to only get spells from the PHB, ECS and Magic of Eberron automatically, plus Light spells from other sources (it's a flavor thing). I was thinking that learning a new spell would require me to scribe it into a prayer book, which would take 24 hours but not extra money. Any other ideas?

The easiest thing I can see solving this is just you practicing some restraint. You know the Cleric is a powerful class that has automatic access to all spells in all books once they reach that level. That doesn't mean you have to use those spells, or that you have to to do so in a manner that makes your Wizard ally feel underpowered.

Also, when it comes to preparing spells, Clerics are actually more restricted in regards to when they can do it than Wizards.

Wizards can refresh spells ANYTIME, provided they stop and rest for 8 hours. That's potentially twice a day. Clerics can only refresh spells once a day at a specific time. That's only one refill a day. If you miss that specific time, well then too bad. You have to wait until it rolls around again.

If you want to limit access to spells though, the PHB, ECS, and MoE are a fine place to start. Of course that's only one of the more minor ways in which Clerics are very powerful mechanically.
Vharuck
09-25-07, 10:24 AM I forget where I've seen this idea before, but I liked it. Basically, it expands on how clerics pray for the spells they wish to memorize. A cleric can only pray for spells he knows (not the game mechanic meaning of "spells known," but the literal meaning). Even if it's possible in the rules for your cleric to memorize [spell X] from the Spell Compendium, it's almost completely unbelievable to think that he'll suddenly be aware of a new spell and intuitively know its components "just 'cause." So your idea of limiting his initial spells known to those in the PHB, ECS, and MoE plus those with the Light descriptor is a good idea.

There are two way to "learn" new spells (in this idea). The first is the simplest: divine gift. One day while praying, the cleric has an epiphany. A new divine spell revealed itself to him. Or maybe the spell was revealed because the cleric asked for a spell like it; he knew that day he and his fellow adventurers would fight beings of darkness, and asked for a weapon of light to wield against them. His prayer was answered with the "blade of light" spell. For the divine gift method, it's best to leave it up to the DM. The DM will decide if and when to reveal a new spell to you. This prevents you from simply saying, "Dudes, I learned how to cast 37 new spells today!" every time you buy a new book.

The second way is non-divine acquisition. This is the mundane way; the way a wizard does it. Despite being divine, a cleric's spells still require complex components. You could research the details of the spell from scrolls or holy texts, or even learn them from other divine spellcasters with a successful Spellcraft check (15 + spell level identifies a spell being cast, so I'd say maybe a 20 + spell level allows you to learn it). This method also allows the DM direct control over how many and what spells you have access to. In addition, the DM should love this since he can now offer new divine spells as loot ("If you destroy the lich, our town will pay you a thousand Galifars. In addition, the lich's library is rumored to contain ancient Xen'drik spellbooks that should be useful to your wizard and sacred tomes of the Silver Flame your cleric may prize").
OctaviusIII
09-28-07, 06:01 PM I'm combining all your ideas into one meta-idea! Here's the skinny:

I will automatically get as many spells as are in the PHB but only those from the ECS, PHB and Magic of Eberron, as well as all Light spells. Any new spells I may want will be found and must be copied into my prayer-book. Adding a spell to the prayer-book will require the same process as copying a spell into a spellbook although cost half as much. I can also copy spells from rubbings or other copies of a magical text. I also can't use spellshards on account of the combined mundane and magical nature of divine spells.

How's that?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OctaviusIII 09-22-07, 05:22 PM	An issue has come up in the campaign I'm in, namely between myself, a cleric, and our party wizard. I've been mining the spell compendium and other books for new spells for myself which, as a cleric, I get automatically. Our wizard can't do this, as each new spell costs money to scribe and time to learn. He's further hobbled by the fact that arcane spellcasters require a minimum 8 hours of rest before preparing spells, while divine casters don't. So, my DM and I are considering rebalancing things a bit. Our idea, for the moment, is to allow me to only get spells from the PHB, ECS and Magic of Eberron automatically, plus Light spells from other sources (it's a flavor thing). I was thinking that learning a new spell would require me to scribe it into a prayer book, which would take 24 hours but not extra money. Any other ideas?
JulesCARV 09-22-07, 11:20 PM	On possibility (I can't remember where I first saw it, but I feel sure that this idea is not original to me) -- as a cleric, you can develop a custom spell list from Spell Compendium, but the total number of spells you know is the same as in the PHB. If you want to learn a Spell Compendium spell, you have to lose a PHB spell from your list. For instance, if you want your cleric to be able to cast Lesser Vigor, you might have to trade out the ability to cast Curse Water or some other level 1 cleric spell. So, for instance, a cleric's spell list, regardless of source, has a limit of 30 level 1 spells, 32 level 2 spells, 33 level 3 spells, 11 level 9 spells, etc. (Counting all of the spells in the PHB is kinda boring, though, so in practice it's probably easier to just treat it as starting with the PHB spell list and then swapping out a PHB spell for a SC spell.)
Alex_ 09-24-07, 02:48 PM	An issue has come up in the campaign I'm in, namely between myself, a cleric, and our party wizard. I've been mining the spell compendium and other books for new spells for myself which, as a cleric, I get automatically. Our wizard can't do this, as each new spell costs money to scribe and time to learn. He's further hobbled by the fact that arcane spellcasters require a minimum 8 hours of rest before preparing spells, while divine casters don't. So, my DM and I are considering rebalancing things a bit. Our idea, for the moment, is to allow me to only get spells from the PHB, ECS and Magic of Eberron automatically, plus Light spells from other sources (it's a flavor thing). I was thinking that learning a new spell would require me to scribe it into a prayer book, which would take 24 hours but not extra money. Any other ideas? The easiest thing I can see solving this is just you practicing some restraint. You know the Cleric is a powerful class that has automatic access to all spells in all books once they reach that level. That doesn't mean you have to use those spells, or that you have to to do so in a manner that makes your Wizard ally feel underpowered. Also, when it comes to preparing spells, Clerics are actually more restricted in regards to when they can do it than Wizards. Wizards can refresh spells ANYTIME, provided they stop and rest for 8 hours. That's potentially twice a day. Clerics can only refresh spells once a day at a specific time. That's only one refill a day. If you miss that specific time, well then too bad. You have to wait until it rolls around again. If you want to limit access to spells though, the PHB, ECS, and MoE are a fine place to start. Of course that's only one of the more minor ways in which Clerics are very powerful mechanically.
Vharuck 09-25-07, 10:24 AM	I forget where I've seen this idea before, but I liked it. Basically, it expands on how clerics pray for the spells they wish to memorize. A cleric can only pray for spells he knows (not the game mechanic meaning of "spells known," but the literal meaning). Even if it's possible in the rules for your cleric to memorize [spell X] from the Spell Compendium, it's almost completely unbelievable to think that he'll suddenly be aware of a new spell and intuitively know its components "just 'cause." So your idea of limiting his initial spells known to those in the PHB, ECS, and MoE plus those with the Light descriptor is a good idea. There are two way to "learn" new spells (in this idea). The first is the simplest: divine gift. One day while praying, the cleric has an epiphany. A new divine spell revealed itself to him. Or maybe the spell was revealed because the cleric asked for a spell like it; he knew that day he and his fellow adventurers would fight beings of darkness, and asked for a weapon of light to wield against them. His prayer was answered with the "blade of light" spell. For the divine gift method, it's best to leave it up to the DM. The DM will decide if and when to reveal a new spell to you. This prevents you from simply saying, "Dudes, I learned how to cast 37 new spells today!" every time you buy a new book. The second way is non-divine acquisition. This is the mundane way; the way a wizard does it. Despite being divine, a cleric's spells still require complex components. You could research the details of the spell from scrolls or holy texts, or even learn them from other divine spellcasters with a successful Spellcraft check (15 + spell level identifies a spell being cast, so I'd say maybe a 20 + spell level allows you to learn it). This method also allows the DM direct control over how many and what spells you have access to. In addition, the DM should love this since he can now offer new divine spells as loot ("If you destroy the lich, our town will pay you a thousand Galifars. In addition, the lich's library is rumored to contain ancient Xen'drik spellbooks that should be useful to your wizard and sacred tomes of the Silver Flame your cleric may prize").
OctaviusIII 09-28-07, 06:01 PM	I'm combining all your ideas into one meta-idea! Here's the skinny: I will automatically get as many spells as are in the PHB but only those from the ECS, PHB and Magic of Eberron, as well as all Light spells. Any new spells I may want will be found and must be copied into my prayer-book. Adding a spell to the prayer-book will require the same process as copying a spell into a spellbook although cost half as much. I can also copy spells from rubbings or other copies of a magical text. I also can't use spellshards on account of the combined mundane and magical nature of divine spells. How's that?