Dolurrh and death [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dolurrh and death [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Braekor Dragonfang
05-03-07, 11:06 AM I've been wondering for a while, but about how many people know what happens when they die and go to Dolurrh? i mean, death itself in eberron is pretty depressing and nihilistic, in that you lose all memories and feel perpetual emptiness. I can't help but think that anyone who knows this would either off themselves or become undead, regardless of alignment, because they realize their actions are going to be forgotten, as will they forget the things they held most dear, so what would anyone who knew this think?

thoughts?
Syltorian
05-03-07, 12:27 PM Why would people not become undead? Because undeath (unlike, it seems, deathlessness) is worse. Even the Blood of Vol considers undeath a curse. They recognise the sacrifice the undead make for their cause, but they will forever be excluded from what truly matters: life, and what it means to be alife.

Undeath, the way I see it, is a state of being relying on negative energy and the powers of Mabar. It is eternal hunger that cannot be quite sated, whether that hunger is for something material (blood, flesh, life-force) or otherwise (justice, affection, rest). Undead may have memories, but they cannot be at rest and at peace; their existence is one eternal, mental torture. And even though they cannot sate themselves, they still have to prey on the living.

Some ancient, real-world religions had Dollurh-like afterlives. Hades is not so wonderful either, as Homer will tell you, and yet Achilles prefers to die than to prolong his life (albeit naturally, by leaving the siege of Troy). But the ghosts of the dead were feared. To be stuck between the two worlds (such as if you could not pay the ferry-man or were not buried properly) was a fate even worse than the shadow-existence in the underworld.

However, while it is true that Dollurh deletes a soul's memories (as much as one can tell), it doesn't say anywhere that a person's actions will be forgotten. Stories of the heroes live on; the Valenar might say that you can keep the dead alive by remembering (and re-enacting) them. Even the humble farmer's actions live on, as he hands his farm over to his descendents, having perhaps added something of his own to them. Again, to compare with ancient civilisations where the afterlife was nothing to look forward to: being remembered is what counts. Having your name erased from the records (damnatio memoriae) is a fate worse than death.

Lastly, there will be people who do not accept this. Who are willing to believe that the 'eternal hunger' theory is Church propaganda, and that the living on in other people's memories does oneself no real good. These people will now have to find someone who can actually turn them into an undead. That's rather expensive, especially as most such spells come with costly components. And it carries the risk that your 'benefactor' will control you afterwards.

I can see some cults promising Eternal Life in Undeath (or even some sects amongst the Blood of Vol doing this, even if it is not the Blood's doctrine), but that would be more a fad of the rich or someone actively exploiting fears.

As for the rest of the people, well, Dollurh is not all that bad... because there is more than the Plane of the Dead. Consider Dollurh as a waiting room, a purgatory, if you want. The faithful of the Sovereign Host (and presumably of the Dark Six), believe that after a while in Dollurh, to be cleansed perhaps, your spirit joins your gods in some transcendental place that no mortal magic can ever discover.

The Silver Flame seems to have a similar idea, although it is unclear whether the just join with the Flame immediately or after a certain time in Dollurh. The virtuous dead strengthen the Flame, according to the doctrine.

Druids, I believe it has been stated somewhere (though I cannot find it), might actually believe in reincarnation... again, possibly, after spending some time of purification/cleansing in Dollurh.

The Elves either do turn their dead into undead (uhm, I mean of course deathless) or believe that they stay around as some kind of spiritual patrons, in the case of the Valenar; otherwise, they bind their souls to the dead body where they can rest (Spirit Idol, PGtE). The drow believe they move on to some Eternal Hunting Grounds.

Of course, some groups believe otherwise. I think there was talk of one group which sees the Keeper as not a greedy god stealing souls, but as a protector preventing the good ones from being dissipated in Dollurh. Some Radiant Cults could also take advantage of this.

As to how many people know about this: most will be dimly aware that Dollurh exists, the way people today know what Heaven and Hell are, without being able to go into great details. Dollurh is certainly not a good place to be, but there is no alternative, as undeath is even worse, and the religions do offer alternatives and escapes. Whether they are true or not is another matter...
Braekor Dragonfang
05-03-07, 03:47 PM I see, that makes a lot of sense, thanks. The reason I asked is because I've been thinking about writing a story that had a lot to do with death and undeath in eberron, with the main character being born half-vampire (sounds crazy but the idea is that he's a sort of living undead or half undead, sort of like a warforged being a living construct) and it has a lot to do with the characters' mindsets and their views on death, undeath and to some extent the other planes.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Braekor Dragonfang 05-03-07, 11:06 AM	I've been wondering for a while, but about how many people know what happens when they die and go to Dolurrh? i mean, death itself in eberron is pretty depressing and nihilistic, in that you lose all memories and feel perpetual emptiness. I can't help but think that anyone who knows this would either off themselves or become undead, regardless of alignment, because they realize their actions are going to be forgotten, as will they forget the things they held most dear, so what would anyone who knew this think? thoughts?
Syltorian 05-03-07, 12:27 PM	Why would people not become undead? Because undeath (unlike, it seems, deathlessness) is worse. Even the Blood of Vol considers undeath a curse. They recognise the sacrifice the undead make for their cause, but they will forever be excluded from what truly matters: life, and what it means to be alife. Undeath, the way I see it, is a state of being relying on negative energy and the powers of Mabar. It is eternal hunger that cannot be quite sated, whether that hunger is for something material (blood, flesh, life-force) or otherwise (justice, affection, rest). Undead may have memories, but they cannot be at rest and at peace; their existence is one eternal, mental torture. And even though they cannot sate themselves, they still have to prey on the living. Some ancient, real-world religions had Dollurh-like afterlives. Hades is not so wonderful either, as Homer will tell you, and yet Achilles prefers to die than to prolong his life (albeit naturally, by leaving the siege of Troy). But the ghosts of the dead were feared. To be stuck between the two worlds (such as if you could not pay the ferry-man or were not buried properly) was a fate even worse than the shadow-existence in the underworld. However, while it is true that Dollurh deletes a soul's memories (as much as one can tell), it doesn't say anywhere that a person's actions will be forgotten. Stories of the heroes live on; the Valenar might say that you can keep the dead alive by remembering (and re-enacting) them. Even the humble farmer's actions live on, as he hands his farm over to his descendents, having perhaps added something of his own to them. Again, to compare with ancient civilisations where the afterlife was nothing to look forward to: being remembered is what counts. Having your name erased from the records (damnatio memoriae) is a fate worse than death. Lastly, there will be people who do not accept this. Who are willing to believe that the 'eternal hunger' theory is Church propaganda, and that the living on in other people's memories does oneself no real good. These people will now have to find someone who can actually turn them into an undead. That's rather expensive, especially as most such spells come with costly components. And it carries the risk that your 'benefactor' will control you afterwards. I can see some cults promising Eternal Life in Undeath (or even some sects amongst the Blood of Vol doing this, even if it is not the Blood's doctrine), but that would be more a fad of the rich or someone actively exploiting fears. As for the rest of the people, well, Dollurh is not all that bad... because there is more than the Plane of the Dead. Consider Dollurh as a waiting room, a purgatory, if you want. The faithful of the Sovereign Host (and presumably of the Dark Six), believe that after a while in Dollurh, to be cleansed perhaps, your spirit joins your gods in some transcendental place that no mortal magic can ever discover. The Silver Flame seems to have a similar idea, although it is unclear whether the just join with the Flame immediately or after a certain time in Dollurh. The virtuous dead strengthen the Flame, according to the doctrine. Druids, I believe it has been stated somewhere (though I cannot find it), might actually believe in reincarnation... again, possibly, after spending some time of purification/cleansing in Dollurh. The Elves either do turn their dead into undead (uhm, I mean of course deathless) or believe that they stay around as some kind of spiritual patrons, in the case of the Valenar; otherwise, they bind their souls to the dead body where they can rest (Spirit Idol, PGtE). The drow believe they move on to some Eternal Hunting Grounds. Of course, some groups believe otherwise. I think there was talk of one group which sees the Keeper as not a greedy god stealing souls, but as a protector preventing the good ones from being dissipated in Dollurh. Some Radiant Cults could also take advantage of this. As to how many people know about this: most will be dimly aware that Dollurh exists, the way people today know what Heaven and Hell are, without being able to go into great details. Dollurh is certainly not a good place to be, but there is no alternative, as undeath is even worse, and the religions do offer alternatives and escapes. Whether they are true or not is another matter...
Braekor Dragonfang 05-03-07, 03:47 PM	I see, that makes a lot of sense, thanks. The reason I asked is because I've been thinking about writing a story that had a lot to do with death and undeath in eberron, with the main character being born half-vampire (sounds crazy but the idea is that he's a sort of living undead or half undead, sort of like a warforged being a living construct) and it has a lot to do with the characters' mindsets and their views on death, undeath and to some extent the other planes.