Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DragoonDarkfire 10-01-07, 06:50 PM	OK so after some discussions my basic understanding of Eberron is that the Dragon Between (Eberron) represents the natural world. She gave birth to the trees, animals, beasts and various other creatures that live in our world. Things like insects and disease as well. Khyber represents the supernatural evil of the world. The aberrations, the demons and devils, the rakshasa and other evil outsiders and also the other various supernatural evils that permeate the world. So, trying to put some basic understanding (possibly unfair to such beings) into perspective. Eberron is neutral and Khyber is neutral evil (or some form of evil) yet what about Siberys, the dragon above? What does he represent? I understand the following. Some sages believe that Siberys is the source of arcane magic but this wouldn't exactly explain why there can be Sorcerers for Khyber and Eberron as well. I also remember reading that the Couatl are the blood of Siberys, like the rakshasa are the blood of Khyber. So here's the question. Does this mean Siberys is the source of GOOD in the world? That it was this progenitor that created the angels, archons and eladrins (plus all other good aligned outsiders) that fill the world? I'm still trying to understand what kind of role does Siberys play in basic belief and conceptualization. I know that Eberron refers to nature and Khyber refers to evil but where does Siberys stand in all of this?
Label 10-02-07, 03:16 AM	Syberis gave birth to the dragons, Eberron created all matter of living, Khyber created the fiends. So basically it's the evil-good axis : Good Neutral Evil
DragoonDarkfire 10-02-07, 11:38 AM	Syberis gave birth to the dragons, Eberron created all matter of living, Khyber created the fiends. So basically it's the evil-good axis : Good Neutral Evil But dragons can be evil. I know it might sound a bit weird but doesn't it say that the dragons are a result of Siberys and Eberron mateing?
CannibalSmith 10-02-07, 01:49 PM	The aberrations, the demons and devils, the rakshasa and other evil outsiders and also the other various supernatural evils that permeate the world. Except that aberrations are invaders from Xoriat. And that an overwhelming majority of the "demons" are rakshasa. The real demons and devils, the ones without native subtype, are on Shavarrah. And and the other evil outsiders, the quori, are invaders too.
Siberys 10-02-07, 03:32 PM	You called? (sorry - couldn't resist)
DragoonDarkfire 10-02-07, 06:58 PM	Except that aberrations are invaders from Xoriat. And that an overwhelming majority of the "demons" are rakshasa. The real demons and devils, the ones without native subtype, are on Shavarrah. And and the other evil outsiders, the quori, are invaders too. Obviously you haven't read Mr. Bakers posts much. Keith confirmed that Khyber created Aberrations long before Xoriat invaded. He also confirmed that a lot of devils and demons were still the result of Khyber, just that the dragon below created the planes.
CannibalSmith 10-03-07, 01:33 AM	Obviously you haven't read Mr. Bakers posts much. I certainly can't read them all. Can you link to the relevant post of his, please?
DragoonDarkfire 10-03-07, 10:55 AM	I certainly can't read them all. Can you link to the relevant post of his, please? He's said it a few times across the boards. I can't exactly recall where but a few of the other members will vouge for this.
Vharuck 10-03-07, 05:34 PM	Yup, the most notable Khyber-spawned aberrations being the aboleths. They claim to have been created at the same time as the fiends and dragons, but didn't play as big a part in the war. Whether that's true or just a bunch of hot air from a hideous race of egotistical jerks, that's up to the DM. ;)
fletch137 10-03-07, 09:44 PM	I've only the slightest inkling of what's going on with the Eberron cosmology, but here's a thought. To build on the idea that Eberron is the natural world and Khyber is the world below, it's worth noting that those are still physical places where a person might go. So even though Khyber is a form of Hell, it's still a hell attached to the end of a long tunnel (as it were). Siberys, though, is broken. I wonder if that's why the local equivelant of Heaven isn't a physical place you can go to.
CannibalSmith 10-04-07, 01:11 AM	Siberys, though, is broken. I wonder if that's why the local equivelant of Heaven isn't a physical place you can go to. But you can!
fletch137 10-06-07, 09:21 PM	But you can! Not just by walking, unless you mean thru a manifest zone or something. My point was that you can physically meander through a tunnel and wind up in Khyber from Eberron. They're both connected and on the same plane of existence. There's no corresponding Syberis realm that you can reach just by flying above the clouds or somesuch. You have to travel the planes to reach anything comparable. All I was wondering is if the lack of a physically reachable 'above realm' was a symptom of Siberys' shattered form, compared to Eberron and Khyber's still-intact forms which are there for the visiting.
CannibalSmith 10-07-07, 04:29 AM	There's no corresponding Syberis realm that you can reach just by flying above the clouds or somesuch. How do you know? Have you ever been to Eberronian outer space? Thought so. Seriously though, just because the ring of Syberis and the moons are not described in detail in the setting (yet) doesn't mean that there's nothing there. To tell the truth, Khyber isn't described either - for all we know it's something like Underdark with fiends instead of drow.
OctaviusIII 10-07-07, 04:49 AM	When Syriana is coterminous, for one day every 50 years, the sky itself becomes a portal to the other plane. Flying up past Eberron's atmosphere takes you there, but it'll take you another 50 years before you get home.
ZeroSD 10-07-07, 06:32 AM	Obviously you haven't read Mr. Bakers posts much. Keith confirmed that Khyber created Aberrations long before Xoriat invaded. He also confirmed that a lot of devils and demons were still the result of Khyber, just that the dragon below created the planes. Although the Aberrations in Khyber and the Xoriat ones generally aren't the same types of Aberrations.
JulesCARV 10-07-07, 11:33 PM	In general, I think that Siberys is a bit ambiguous. I think most people in Eberron who are familiar with such matters do not regard Siberys as a reified symbol or source of goodness; they usually regard it as a font of magical power. Sorcerers believe that their powers are derived from a connection to Siberys, and even self-consciously evil sorcerers do not typically believe that their powers are derived from Khyber, as far as I can tell. High-powered dragonmarks are known as Siberys marks, and carry no implication of good or evil. "None of the above" clerics are collectively known as clerics of the Dragon Above, and they are found in all alignment shades. However, just because Siberys might not conventionally be thought of as a source of good doesn't mean that there aren't some people in Eberron who might think of it that way. For instance, I had a concept for an Irsvern kobold cleric of the Dragon Above (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=932870) who thought of the Dragon Above as being a source of good. His view is probably a minority one, but I figure it makes sense for that character.
DragoonDarkfire 10-08-07, 11:18 AM	I think most people in Eberron who are familiar with such matters do not regard Siberys as a reified symbol or source of goodness; they usually regard it as a font of magical power. Sorcerers believe that their powers are derived from a connection to Siberys, Ummm... no. Most Sorcerers say their powers come from the Prygentor wyrms THEMSELVES. There are Sorcerers who believe their powers come from Khyber and even Eberron. and even self-consciously evil sorcerers do not typically believe that their powers are derived from Khyber, as far as I can tell. What about cults of the dragon below? Sorcerers can claim their powers come from Khyber as much as clerics of the dragon below. High-powered dragonmarks are known as Siberys marks, and carry no implication of good or evil. "None of the above" clerics are collectively known as clerics of the Dragon Above, and they are found in all alignment shades. Clerics can be corrupt as well. That doesn't mean their God isn't good or evil it just means that he might not exist or their power has been diverted from another source. Heck the Silver Flame could be an indirect worship of Siberys. If Couatl are the spawn of Siberys and their souls create the Silver Flame then wouldn't worships of the flame be considered worshiping Siberys to an extent?
androkguz 10-12-07, 10:02 PM	Welcome to eberron! the place where you have a lot of hints of what somethings are/mean/where/do, but where you just have to decide in the end. As usual, this is one of those things that are a mystery in Eberron, as it should be. The most I can do is help you with facts. There's for example, the creation myth in which Siberys created the stars and many other worlds... and khyber devoured them. Bards also believe that the dragon above created the world with an epic song and that the can sometimes tap on the power of that great tune that still echoes in the plane. Siberys is then a creator. An original creator before Eberron (who did more like gave birth). He's said it a few times across the boards. I can't exactly recall where but a few of the other members will vouge for this. Actually, the aberrations are creations of the Daelkyr. Keith said that SOME creatures with the aberration type, such as the aboleths, didn't came from Xoriat but from Khyber. Yet, the vast mayority of the aberrations comes from the realm of madness and were created by the lords of madness. In fact, one of the mysteries of the setting is if the planes where created in the age of dragons or if they are older or if the where part of the same plane by the time or what?? How is it then that we know for sure that the fiends of the cosmos come from the dragon below?
Cifer 10-14-07, 10:52 AM	As has been said, there are some fiends that were most probably made by Khyber (like the Rakshasa) and some coming from the planes. With aberrations, it seems to be more or less the same.
DragoonDarkfire 10-14-07, 11:55 AM	Well again this all goes back to that one of the predominate beliefs of the DRAGONS is that the reason there are evil outsiders in both Mabar, Savarrath and Fernia isn't because of some divine coincidence where Balors exist in both Fernia AND Khyber (as Keith also said that Khyber might be able to spawn fiends of different planes) it's because Khyber CREATED Fernia and Savarrath (or more accurately the fiend armies that dwell there) and that's why there are demons in those planes as well as demons in Khyber. Raskshasa's are Khyber's spawn but they're hardly the only ones. There could be entire vast variations of demons, including ones we see in Savarrath and Fernia, that exist in the deep regions of Khyber.
JulesCARV 10-14-07, 10:56 PM	You were right about sorcerers, DragoonDarkfire. I should have checked my sources more carefully. (Or... y'know, at all) Still, while I don't think it's really in dispute that Khyber is basically a wellspring of evil, I think that it's far less clear that Syberis is a wellspring of good. In "vanilla" D&D, we're accustomed to seeing symmetrical dichotomies of various sorts (Gold dragons are the opposite of Red dragons, the Abyss is the opposite of Mount Celestia, the Elemental Plane of Water is the opposite of the Elemental Plane of Fire, etc). That's frequently the case with Eberron as well (i.e., Sovereign Host is opposite of the Dark Six, Blood of Vol is opposite of the Undying Court, etc), but it's not as consistently so as in vanilla D&D.
CannibalSmith 10-15-07, 01:14 AM	Still, while I don't think it's really in dispute that Khyber is basically a wellspring of evil, You mean vilespring. :) I think that it's far less clear that Syberis is a wellspring of good. Well, it's not. Celestia isn't either. It's because only the bad guys come to the Material Plane to bother us.
glug 10-22-07, 04:41 PM	I think it's easier to just take it as the creation myth that it is, and realize that it just gives you an idea of what some people believe. I mean, one dragon turning into a planet that hugs another dragon (which turns into underground caverns full of monsters) while a third dragon scatters into a ring and bleeds on them both.. it's about as plausible as 'The Creator' waking up one morning on Day 4 and going "hrm.. this place needs some people" and reaching for the clay. It's just a story. It's something some people believe to answer the big questions about "what happened before ANY OF US were here, and why?" We know where dragons think that dragons and demons and everything else come from. That's about it.
Gurv 10-22-07, 08:15 PM	Siberys, though, is broken. I think that this is perhaps the most symbolic thing of all. In Eberron, you rarely see anything that is purely good. There are a number of things which are pure evil. And a great deal of the world exists in a natural, neutral state. But pure good? Cohesive, organized good, on a scale to match the evil? No, not on Eberron. It's almost like the very source of such an ideal was lost before things even began. The closest surviving remenant of it? The couatl, who were formed purely from Siberys' blood before it struck Eberron. The couatl, who later sacrificed themselves to form the Silver Flame. Quite possibly the only organization actively involved in fighting the pure evils of the world.
glug 10-23-07, 12:32 PM	Quite possibly the only organization actively involved in fighting the pure evils of the world. Tell that to my shifter druid. ;)
Gurv 10-23-07, 02:44 PM	Tell that to my shifter druid. ;) Are you suggesting that your shifter druid is himself a member of an organization whose soul purpose is to fight pure evil? Or are you saying that the Silver Flame is not actually doing so? If you mean the latter, then perhaps I should have said that the Silver Flame is the only force actively involved in fighting the evils of the world. As an organization, it indeed suffers from all the weaknesses inherent in humanity. If you mean the former, then what organization would that be?
DragoonDarkfire 10-23-07, 04:33 PM	then what organization would that be? Gatekeepers?
CannibalSmith 10-24-07, 06:11 AM	Gatekeepers!
glug 10-24-07, 08:54 AM	Are you suggesting that your shifter druid is himself a member of an organization whose soul purpose is to fight pure evil? Or are you saying that the Silver Flame is not actually doing so? If you mean the latter, then perhaps I should have said that the Silver Flame is the only force actively involved in fighting the evils of the world. As an organization, it indeed suffers from all the weaknesses inherent in humanity. If you mean the former, then what organization would that be? 10 points to Gryffindor! :) My shifter druid is a Gatekeeper, so he's doing his fair share of fighting off enormous evil in Eberron. And perhaps you may have forgotten that there would be far more shifters in the world had the Silver Flame not decided that they were "evil" along with Lycanthropes? Oh, and then changed their minds.
BlackDragon71425 10-31-07, 07:44 AM	Where do the dragons think they come from?
BlackDragon71425 10-31-07, 07:46 AM	We know where dragons think they come from
DragoonDarkfire 10-31-07, 05:57 PM	We know where dragons think they come from Dragons think they're the creation of Blood from Siberys that has hit Eberron in specific location. So blood that hit's clouds are Silver Dragons and Blood that hits swamps are black dragons. However Couatl's are believed to be the PURE blood of Siberys.
Yakman 10-31-07, 07:27 PM	I don't see a problem with creating a religion worshipping the Dragon Above. And they might just be trying to build a literal stairway to heaven...
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 11-24-07, 01:04 PM	This is why I love Eberron, all about faith, not fact. The gods don't just stomp around and say these are my followers. Personally there a multitude of ideas floating around in-game. I personally have factions upon factions when it comes to religous dogma in game. BTW The Dragon Above, is all in all a general vanilla cleric. Which means you can pretty much use him as whatever you want, hence why he has not "true following".
AvonRekaes 12-03-07, 04:31 PM	The Gatekeepers aren't about fighting evil. They're about keeping the unnatural away from the natural. For instance, the typical Gatekeeper crusade would be if a daelkyr's mind flayer vassals start organizing a cult that succeeds in piercing the seals and opening a limited portal to Xoriat. The druids would certainly mount an offensive and charge and keep Xoriat's influence at bay. Now, take a plot by rakshasa. They're feeding off the rage and vengence inherent to the human heart and focusing it toward turning normal groups of people into rioting mobs. The Gatekeepers, typically, as a whole, would be more likely to say "Well, that's your problem." and go back to watching the Dimensional Seals. The Silver Flame is the only force who's inherent goal is the eradication of all evil, while simultaneously embodying tolerance and compassion. (Just because it's fallible followers often fail at this does not mean the organization as a whole is not trying.)
androkguz 12-06-07, 08:56 AM	The Gatekeepers aren't about fighting evil. They're about keeping the unnatural away from the natural. For instance, the typical Gatekeeper crusade would be if a daelkyr's mind flayer vassals start organizing a cult that succeeds in piercing the seals and opening a limited portal to Xoriat. The druids would certainly mount an offensive and charge and keep Xoriat's influence at bay. Now, take a plot by rakshasa. They're feeding off the rage and vengence inherent to the human heart and focusing it toward turning normal groups of people into rioting mobs. The Gatekeepers, typically, as a whole, would be more likely to say "Well, that's your problem." and go back to watching the Dimensional Seals. The Silver Flame is the only force who's inherent goal is the eradication of all evil, while simultaneously embodying tolerance and compassion. (Just because it's fallible followers often fail at this does not mean the organization as a whole is not trying.) Are you saying that the Silver Flame are the only good organization? Dude, keeping the unnatural away from the natural IS fighting evil. And they would probably not abandon a seal to stop the rakshasa because their main concern are the seals. But an individual druid would very probably help defeat any demon. They are neutral to good. They can't be evil.
AvonRekaes 12-06-07, 08:44 PM	Don't put words in my mouth. I never said the Church of the Silver Flame is the only good organization. I said the Silver Flame is the only organization dedicated to the eradication of all evil. Gatekeepers only care about unnatural evil (or even more specifically, extraplanar unnatural evil). And I never once said they were evil. I freaking love the gatekeepers as player characters and NPC helpful organizations, but they do have a specific focus (which is one reason I like to use them, because they have a specific role to play). The Silver Flame does not. As an organization once the Gatekeepers "win" and purge Eberron of all unnatural evil, the most likely course of action they would take is not to then fight against natural evil, but to stand vigil and make sure unnatural evil does not return. However, the Silver Flame will not rest until all evil is purged from Eberron. The Silver Flame's one goal is to transform the world into a paradise where evil does not exist. Also, please quote for me where it says Gatekeepers can't be Neutral Evil. I find it odd that an evil Cleric of the Silver Flame can call down holy Flamestrikes, but a neutral evil druid can't be a gatekeeper. (For example, the Gatekeeper Initiate feat does not require a non-evil alignment.)
androkguz 12-07-07, 02:00 PM	Well. The Eldeen Ranger of the Gatekeepers can't be evil, but that's about it. OH!, and protection from evil (granted by the Gatekeeper Initiate feat) can't be cast by an evil druid. Anyway, you're right, the only organization that fights all evil is the Church but they also have a main enemy: the Lords of Dust.
AvonRekaes 12-08-07, 12:02 PM	Huh, wow, you're right, an evil Gatekeeper can't cast protection from evil. Which is pretty weird because an evil cleric of the Silver Flame can. (The ECS states that deities don't actively withhold spells from clerics in Eberron, so a good cleric can cast an evil spell, specifically stating that the "Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells" section of the cleric class features is not valid in Eberron, but there's nothing that mentions that the "Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells" section of the druid class is also invalidated.) Seems weird to me that druids are held to a higher standard than clerics, though, so I'm just going to chalk that up to an oversight and extend the same potential for corruption within a druidic tradition as there is for a religion. I'll be houseruling that druids are not limited from any alignment descriptor spells, just like clerics.
DragoonDarkfire 12-08-07, 12:52 PM	(The ECS states that deities don't actively withhold spells from clerics in Eberron, so a good cleric can cast an evil spell, specifically stating that the "Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells" section of the cleric class features is not valid in Eberron, but there's nothing that mentions that the "Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells" section of the druid class is also invalidated.) It ALSO says that casting evil spells is an evil act and casting good spells is a good act. As such casting Protection From Evil by an Evil cleric is preforming an act of good and if he continues to do so then his alignment should change accordingly. Basically, good cleric casting evil spells soon spell out bad cleric.
AvonRekaes 12-09-07, 11:59 AM	Yes, I know, which is why the header of that section is "Clerics and Corruption". You can't corrupt yourself with evil spells if you can't cast them in the first place.
androkguz 12-12-07, 11:45 AM	Well, the Silver Flame is good even thought it's clerics can cast evil spells. But even if you dictate that druids can also corrupt, you still have to realise that a cult that has Protection from Evil as a characteristic spell is got to be a good (or non-evil) cult (in terms of Eberron)
AvonRekaes 12-13-07, 07:46 PM	Here is where the confusion lies. I never said that the Gatekeepers weren't Good or that they were less Good than the Silver Flame, just that, as an organization, they only care about specific kinds of evil, whereas the Silver Flame wants to end all kinds. So, yes, of course, I do realize that the Gatekeepers are a Good organization. I realized it from the second I read the description of them in the ECS. It doesn't take a genius to see it. However, I also realize that the organization as a whole is made up of individuals, just as is the Silver Flame, and I don't see how you can say that not one single solitary member of the Gatekeepers, present or centuries and millenia past, was ever evil. (Hell, it would be more likely to say that "Not one single solitary Gatekeeper in the history of the Gatekeepers would ever willingly attach a symbiont to himself" but Magic of Eberron already proves that false.)
androkguz 12-16-07, 10:03 AM	ok, problem solved then.