Post/Author/DateTime	Post
okaynowa 04-18-07, 10:51 AM	The Fireballed Mage said something in another thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=827620) about the Dragonmarked Houses that caught my attention:Your family is touched by Fate. Your blood calls to powers that others get only through years of study and hard work. Everyone believes themselves in some way magnificent... but you don't have to believe... you have proof. You are born to greatness. Other's can't do what you can do. You and your blood relatives are heir to a destiny. So rather than just go helter-skelter, you and your family members share a vision, a passion, a drive. You are willing to work towards a greater goal. A goal that may be hundreds of years in the future, but your children will be as blessed as you are, so why not lay down the path for them to one day travel.... which got me thinking about how the Dragonmarked think about themselves as Houses. They've been self-identifying organizations for hundreds, even thousands of years At least since the War of the Mark they've kept careful genealogies-- they know who's who in a pretty extensive network Any given member of a House, marked or not, is probably able to trace a direct line back to personages of historical significance To me, this confluence of circumstances sounds like a recipe for ancestor veneration. Add in the fact that these heritable Dragonmarks allow supernatural manifestations, and special reverence of similarly-empowered ancestors becomes even more likely. In practice, I could see Dragonmarked households having family shrines, making big deals out of funerals and births, and invoking the names of significant ancestors for luck or blessings. These practices wouldn't be at odds with participation in mainstream Khorvairan faiths, though adherents of the Silver Flame and the Sovereign Host probably have a divergent theories on the technical, spirtual status of the departed. There's probably a difference, too, between ancestor veneration in the human Houses (where generations are short) and the elven and dwarven Houses (where one stands a better chance of meeting great-great-grandparents in person). It's something to think about, particularly for those campaigns where the Houses take center stage. For example, Phiarlann and Thuranni could have shrines dedicated to common ancestors-- do they war over them, or declare them neutral ground? Cannith's most important family memorials are now in the Mournlands-- how do they properly honor the founders now?
Nived 04-18-07, 11:34 AM	I wouldn't make it ancestor veneration, pride certainly but not veneration. In my own family I'm able to trace my line back to a great great (forget how many great) grandfather who signed the Declaration of Independance, and an uncle who signed both that and the Constitution of the United States. My Grandfather's both fought in WWII, one suviving despite being at the center of the Battle of the Bulge, and my other grandfather served in the OSS (Amry precusor to the CIA). After the war one of my grandfather's worked at DOW and was on the R&D team that invented seran wrap. I know all this about my family and I take pride in it, but I don't worship them, that is a rather large cultural leap. While it's possible that tthere is some ancestor worship (probably amongst Phiarlan, Thuanni, and House Lyrander) I believe it would be more akin to a fierce pride rather than direct worship. Knowing the history of your family and praying to dead ancestors is a big leap.
okaynowa 04-18-07, 01:07 PM	Knowing the history of your family and praying to dead ancestors is a big leap.I don't think it's that big a leap when demonstrable magical powers are directly linked to ancestors who had similar magical powers. Inheriting the ability to speak with animals or teleport might inspire a more spiritual (philosophical? mystical?) view of legacy than if one merely inherited dark eyes and curly hair. I should point out that I prefer the term ancestor veneration over ancestor worship. I agree there's a difference between family pride and venerating ancestors; I would additionally suggest there's a difference between praying to ancestors for protection and praying to Boldrei for protection from evil. To clarify my stance: family pride is respect, ancestor veneration is ritualized respect, and worship is philosophical/theological spiritual adoration. Under those terms, there's room for any level of veneration within the same House. Artificer Uilean Thuranni takes great pride in the family and includes the family crest on all his creations; assassin Broza d'Thuranni visits the family tombs before every mission to leave an offering and pray for success; shadowcaster Kusunan Thuranni believes that his mysteries are true manifestations of Thuranni spirits. I'm merely musing on this matter to explore the cultural implications of families that have been incorporated, in some cases, for a hundred generations.
Cifer 04-18-07, 02:07 PM	I would additionally suggest there's a difference between praying to ancestors for protection and praying to Boldrei for protection from evil. In Eberron, there isn't. If you sufficiently believe something could protect you and are one of the happy few that can channel divine energy, you can get a protection from evil from venerating your shoe. I could see something like this happening with the elvish houses since the three religions that mainly deal with death come from the elves (BoV, Undying Court, Ancestor Worship of Valenar), yet I prefer most other houses to be at least somewhat irreligious - though lip service is paid to the major religions, most house members know that what really matters is the house; while this may be somewhat enhanced by essentially venerating yourself, I'd say most houses are oriented towards the future. They take pride in what their fathers did, but their greates successes will lie in the future. To crack the joke I've been holding for about a month now, they're more about profits than about prophets.
okaynowa 04-18-07, 02:49 PM	In Eberron, there isn't. If you sufficiently believe something could protect you and are one of the happy few that can channel divine energy, you can get a protection from evil from venerating your shoe.I'm aware of that aspect of the setting. This is why I'm trying to define my terms very carefully. While it's possible that some hardcore members of a House could actually achieve a level of faith (or purity, or fervor, or whatever you want to call it) that grants divine magic, what I'm envisioning for the majority is more along the lines of accrued tradition than faith or religion. For example, say I have an irrelgious scion of House Deneith. Even though he's an outright atheist, he knows that he's expected to salute the memorial to the family's war dead, recite the roll of Deneith generals when he's promoted, and ask the ancestors to watch over him on the battlefield. He doesn't believe his ancestors have achieved divinity, and he certainly doesn't believe he channels ancestral spirits ("I'm not some pathological Valenar,"), but being a good son and heir means observing the rituals and living up to expectations, especially if he wants his name added to that rite. He won't defend the family shrine because it's a holy place (it isn't, to him); he'll defend the family shrine because messing with it is an insult to the House. To sum up, I'm saying there's a difference between praying and praying. ;)
Vharuck 04-18-07, 04:17 PM	I think we're biased by being American nowadays. Also, we don't have nobility, so it doesn't matter who your daddy was unless he gave you material things. And then the things matter more than your parents in most Americans' view of you. We're a hodge podge society. I think I am mostly German, but I'm sure there's plenty of other races mixed in there as well. Back then (I know that Eberron isn't really history, but it's based largely in Western history), your job was chosen for you. It was what your parents did. I guess that in fantasy, it's a little more open-ended, but I'd like to believe that in the small villages the smith's son will be a smith when he grows up. Anyways, my point is that our disconnection with our geneology is a strange new thing for our ancestral cultures. It seems like knowing that much would require an unmatched passion for one's family history, but it would probably be very common amongst the lower and middle classes and required of the nobility and dragonmarked.
korcheck 04-18-07, 04:19 PM	It sounds to me as if what you are speaking of is along the lines of the japanese culture I don't recall how indepth they get in there beliefs toward ancestors but this seems to be the route you are going with, is this correct?
Just another user 04-18-07, 05:45 PM	The way I say it the houses are, before anything else, a business, they look at the present, and the future first, not at the past, remember that they trace their ancestor because they have to, to avoid the spread of aberrant dragonmarks not because they particolarry give a damn, and while someone in house Cannith could feel proud to say "my grand-grand-grand father was the one that invented the fireball spell" the answer he get if he get too annoying is "that's nice, but what did YOU do?"
bookwurmneo 04-18-07, 10:40 PM	I think that ancestor veneration largely would depend on how the individual or his family/faction sees the role and place of the dragonmarked houses. If he sees the house as a corporation then he probably places the same emphasis on his ancestors and marked heroes as other cultural figures. However, if he saw the dragonmarks as divine gifts or the houses as the new royalty/rulers of Khorvaire to have a more pronounced adoration of the house's past and their ancestors. I could see an eberron where the pursuits of the houses and especially dragonmarked adventurers being centered around proving one's importance to the house and their ancestor's work. So, the cannith scion whose ancestor invented the fireball spell might be pressured not only to succeed and be first amongst his peers but also to match his ancestor's accomplishments.
okaynowa 04-19-07, 11:34 AM	The way I say it the houses are, before anything else, a business, they look at the present, and the future first, not at the past, remember that they trace their ancestor because they have to, to avoid the spread of aberrant dragonmarks not because they particolarry give a damn, and while someone in house Cannith could feel proud to say "my grand-grand-grand father was the one that invented the fireball spell" the answer he get if he get too annoying is "that's nice, but what did YOU do?"Fair enough, and certainly a fine way to play it. I'm merely observing the fact that even House Tharashk, the youngest human/half-orc house, is a thousand years old. That's roughly the same amount of time from the beginning of Egypt's Old Kingdom to the end of the Middle Kingdom. Tharashk is involved in business, yes, but ten centuries is also enough time to become a culture unto themselves. Cannith and Deneith are two and a half times older than that; that's enough time for ancestors to reach mythic status. Looking to the future is good, and innovations like the airships and sending stones prove that the Houses are aggressively forward thinking. Still, the Dragonmarked Houses' remarkable endurance through the centuries is like a law firm being able to factually trace the partners' family tree back to Hammurabi. The Houses got to where they are by building on and expanding the successes of the previous generations-- scores of generations, in the case of the humans. That kind of legacy could inspire awe in observers, and not a little reverance in its direct beneficiaries. It might be more accurate to say the Guilds are, before anything else, businesses. The Dragonmarked Houses are, after 1000+ years, dynasties.