Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thaliost 01-10-08, 06:28 PM	I'm recently reading thru Faiths of Eberron and beginning to think about one question: Did the three dragons come before the Sovereign Host, or the reverse? According to the book, the Nine in Sovereign Host, or strictly speaking, the Fifteen in the pantheon, each stands for one or more aspects of either nature or civilization. However, civilization came after the lesser races, which were spawn by Eberron. So is there any official announcements about whether the three dragons were even greater existances than the Gods? If not, the way I've been thinking about in explaining the time before the Age of Dragons should work in my campaign.
Marcus Majarra 01-10-08, 07:05 PM	As with most philosophical issues in Eberron, that really depends on whom you ask. If you look at the draconic religion of Thir, you conclude that the Progenitor Wyrms came first, created the world and the planes, and left the Draconic Prophecy as their plan for this existence. Then came the Dragon Gods, which represent the ultimate spiritual ascension a dragon can experience, whereas the 15 Sovereigns are merely another step in dragon spirituality. In this fashion, dragons emulate one of the 15 Sovereigns in life in order to be reborn as a Sovereign and guide the lesser races before taking their place in the Dragon Pantheon for the next existence. Naturally, Vassals are offended by these beliefs. If you look mostly at Vassal religion, it's likely to depict the Progenitor Wyrms creating existence as well, except that the Sovereigns embody various aspects of existence. They're not gods in the sense that they are beings with their plans and agendas for existence; they're gods in that they ARE existence. So technically, as the Progenitors created the world, they inevitably created the Sovereigns as well.
Thaliost 01-10-08, 07:27 PM	As with most philosophical issues in Eberron, that really depends on whom you ask. If you look at the draconic religion of Thir, you conclude that the Progenitor Wyrms came first, created the world and the planes, and left the Draconic Prophecy as their plan for this existence. Then came the Dragon Gods, which represent the ultimate spiritual ascension a dragon can experience, whereas the 15 Sovereigns are merely another step in dragon spirituality. In this fashion, dragons emulate one of the 15 Sovereigns in life in order to be reborn as a Sovereign and guide the lesser races before taking their place in the Dragon Pantheon for the next existence. Naturally, Vassals are offended by these beliefs. If you look mostly at Vassal religion, it's likely to depict the Progenitor Wyrms creating existence as well, except that the Sovereigns embody various aspects of existence. They're not gods in the sense that they are beings with their plans and agendas for existence; they're gods in that they ARE existence. So technically, as the Progenitors created the world, they inevitably created the Sovereigns as well. Thanks Marcus. It's a similar way I'm thinking. But I haven't read about the draconic religion yet. Could you tell me which book it's in?
Marcus Majarra 01-10-08, 09:29 PM	As with almost every bit of info there is on Eberron dragons, you'll find it in Dragons of Eberron.
Thaliost 01-10-08, 09:37 PM	That's great info. I haven't got a chance to get this book yet, but now I believe I have to. Thanks again!
Wrathchylde 01-12-08, 04:15 PM	well my question is ... does the eberron setting use the same deities as the 3.5 core rules set for D&D or do they have a completely seperate and unique deity list? If seperate is there a link someplace where i can take a look at them? I play DDO (dungeons and dragons online: stormreach) and am looking for ALL deities that are possible Paladin pantheons such as Heironeous is in the core rules set. I would be flexible enough to even accept Lawful Neutral gods and any good aligned as a possible icon of worship for a group of paladins.
davethebrave371 01-12-08, 04:49 PM	well my question is ... does the eberron setting use the same deities as the 3.5 core rules set for D&D or do they have a completely seperate and unique deity list? If seperate is there a link someplace where i can take a look at them? I play DDO (dungeons and dragons online: stormreach) and am looking for ALL deities that are possible Paladin pantheons such as Heironeous is in the core rules set. I would be flexible enough to even accept Lawful Neutral gods and any good aligned as a possible icon of worship for a group of paladins. Seperate and unique. Wikipedia actually has a fairly concise list.
Thaliost 01-12-08, 06:35 PM	And I would really suggest getting at least the campaign setting when playing DDO, after all this game doesn't ever explain anything... The Sovereign Host and The Silver Flame are both good deities for paladins, but personally, I believe the latter is more likely to convince its believers to devote their lives as paladins, and it's also in great power in Stormreach. Seperate and unique. Wikipedia actually has a fairly concise list.
Siran Dunmorgan 01-13-08, 03:15 PM	And I would really suggest getting at least the campaign setting when playing DDO, after all this game doesn't ever explain anything... The Sovereign Host and The Silver Flame are both good deities for paladins, but personally, I believe the latter is more likely to convince its believers to devote their lives as paladins, and it's also in great power in Stormreach. The deities—including the Silver Flame—don't convince their believers to devote their lives as Paladins. They call paladins to their service. It's not a matter of convincing anyone: the prospective Paladin hears/perceives the call, or they don't; they answer it, or they don't. Tales are told—or at least, they were, a couple of years ago—of an out-and-out rogue who woke up one morning in Sharn, and used his pile of loot to buy a horse that they could ride out to the Labyrinth as a paladin in the service of Kalok Shash. It's all about the call. —Siran Dunmorgan
Hellcow 01-13-08, 04:03 PM	It's all about the call. Good point (and welcome back to the boards, SD!). Beyond that... I... am looking for ALL deities that are possible Paladin pantheons In Eberron, ALL faiths are potential sponsors for paladins, because the alignment of the divine force doesn't have to match that of the follower. Dol Arrah or the Silver Flame are the closest match to Heironeous. But the Deathguard of the Undying Court has its fair share of paladins. The Path of Light is certainly a option. And even the faiths traditionally seen as "evil" could nonetheless call paladins to pursue the righteous goals of the faith. Consider: The Blood of Vol. One path of the Blood of Vol holds that the purpose of the religion is to bring an end to suffering and death. A paladin is called by the power of the faith itself, not appointed by a secular heirarchy. So regardless of what you think of Malevenor's motives, PCs could easily encounter a paladin of the Blood who has been called to protect the innocent followers of the faith and opposed any force that spreads suffering across the land. Such a paladin could end up coming into direct conflict with members of the Emerald Claw - but internal conflict within religions is something you see in most of Eberron's religions. The Cults of the Dragon Below. Not all of the cults are aligned with Xoriat. Some believe that Khyber itself is a promised land, and that in life the faithful must earn their passage to the paradise within the world. Or perhaps a paladin is charged to defend one of the races spawned or touched by Khyber. Or perhaps a paladin is called to preserve the balance between the two worlds. When creatures of Khyber meet creatures of Eberron, the result is often deadly for both sides; the paladin must fight those monsters who seek to wreak havoc on the surface, but also protect those who remain below from avaricious explorers and adventurers. Going further afield, the Xoriat cultists and the Khyber cultists have radically different beliefs; a paladin could be called by Khyber to destroy the aberrations of Xoriat, which are an extraplanar infestation within the Dragon Below. This also doesn't touch on the fact that even the traditional paladin faiths can take many forms. As Siran has touched on, there's a considerable difference between a paladin called to serve the Silver Flame in Flamekeep and one called to the Labyrinth by Kalok Shash, and on the surface both are quire different from the Shulassakar Ascendant of the Talenta Plains. So there's not simply one "paladin faith" in Eberron - there's lots of possibilities to explore.
Jabberwocky888 01-13-08, 04:41 PM	Wow, Hellcow, your posts are always a pleasure to read. My compliments. There should be a book of your quotes, something like Complete Hellcow or Sic dixit Bos infernalis :-) Well, I thought about presenting my PCs with something like a BoV paladin, an honourable and deeply religious Karrnathi knight, a good man and a real believer. I remain uncertain whether he will be an ally or a foe to them (it depends on their decisions, of course), but you have just added another façette to him. Thanks for your posts!
Thaliost 01-13-08, 07:20 PM	The deities—including the Silver Flame—don't convince their believers to devote their lives as Paladins. They call paladins to their service. It's not a matter of convincing anyone: the prospective Paladin hears/perceives the call, or they don't; they answer it, or they don't. Tales are told—or at least, they were, a couple of years ago—of an out-and-out rogue who woke up one morning in Sharn, and used his pile of loot to buy a horse that they could ride out to the Labyrinth as a paladin in the service of Kalok Shash. It's all about the call. —Siran Dunmorgan Thank you for correcting me, Siran. Yes, the deities just call, and what I meant to say was, the higher level priests in the Silver Flame would more likely to convince someone to devote to their benefit, in the name of the Flame, simply because they're believed to be speaking for the Flame. This is what I think Keith is trying to convey by describing the church.
Euangelion 01-14-08, 11:43 AM	Thank you for correcting me, Siran. Yes, the deities just call, and what I meant to say was, the higher level priests in the Silver Flame would more likely to convince someone to devote to their benefit, in the name of the Flame, simply because they're believed to be speaking for the Flame. This is what I think Keith is trying to convey by describing the church. That sounds more like the process of training clerics and adepts of the faith, rather than paladins. Only a rare few of the faithful can cast divine spells, and fewer still can channel positive or negative energy in order to turn/rebuke undead. Depending on the faith, there's a more or less organized process for weeding out the wanabees and training up those who can actually do those things (faith is a big part of it, but it isn't all about the faith, apparently). In this respect, the leaders of a church can indeed go recruiting. But paladins are a different issue altogether. Someone without a calling to be a paladin can't be recruited to be a paladin. Someone without a calling to be a paladin can't be trained to become a paladin. For some strange, mystical reason, certain people are simply supposed to be paladins. But it takes a very rare level of committment to Good, a very high level of discipline (spiritual, mental, emotional, physical), and committement to the tenents of the faith to stay on the path of paladinhood. A cleric or adept could stray far beyond the official tenents of the faith and still retain their abilities, but paladins cannot.
Edymnion 01-14-08, 01:05 PM	Thank you for correcting me, Siran. Yes, the deities just call, and what I meant to say was, the higher level priests in the Silver Flame would more likely to convince someone to devote to their benefit, in the name of the Flame, simply because they're believed to be speaking for the Flame.It must also be pointed out that, in Eberron, the Cleric fills the niche of the generic Paladin. They are the heavily armed and armored warriors of the faith, that blend tremendous divine spellcasting with force of arms to defend the faith. Hence the high hitdice, the heavy armor proficiency, etc. That isn't the trappings of a humble monk in an abby, that is the trappings of a warrior. Normal faith matters and the like are handled by Adepts and Experts, not Clerics. Paladins are the elite leaders of men, called to their destiny by faith. In Eberron, no amount of desire or training will ever make you a Paladin, its something that you are specifically called to do, or you aren't. If you aren't called, even as an elite individual, you'd still just be a Cleric or Cleric/Fighter.
Thaliost 01-14-08, 01:22 PM	Is this calling mechanism somewhere in the core rule books or in Eberron settings? I have to say I didn't notice this.
Jabberwocky888 01-14-08, 01:28 PM	Well, I thought about starting a separate thread for that but the discussion here is heading that way anyway so I'll ask here: In Eberron, ALL faiths are potential sponsors for paladins ... And even the faiths traditionally seen as "evil" could nonetheless call paladins to pursue the righteous goals of the faith. Consider: The Blood of Vol. ... The Cults of the Dragon Below. etc. How is it with clerics' and paladins' alignment? Example 1 - an evil cleric of a good faith: is he considered good or evil in respect to spells, magic items, discerning alignment etc.? Example 2 - a paladin of an evil faith: as above plus what does he do when every detect evil he uses on a cleric of his faith turns out to be "positive"? I like the idea of a BoV paladin but this seems to be at odds with the game mechanics. (Not that game mechanics ever stopped me when telling a story but one should be consistent somehow.)
Hellcow 01-14-08, 01:53 PM	Example 1 - an evil cleric of a good faith: is he considered good or evil in respect to spells, magic items, discerning alignment etc.? There's many different ways to handle this. As a DM, you'll have to decide which you prefer. All of the Above. Playing it strictly by the RAW, the apparent answer would be that an evil cleric of a good god has two alignment auras. As an evil creature, he registers on detect evil. However, his divine aura is linked to the alignment of his god, so if the god is good he also has a good aura. Personally, I feel that the ability to have a corrupt cleric who doesn't consider himself to be corrupt is an important part of the flavor of Eberron, and I dislike the idea of an evil preist of the Silver Flame blasting himself with his own holy word. So I use... Biggest and Oldest Gets Best And Most. If a character has multiple conflicting alignment auras, use the most powerful aura for all purposes related to magic. Thus, by the RAW a 6th level evil cleric of a good deity has two distinct auras - a faint evil aura (as an evil creature with 10 or fewer hit dice) and a strong good aura (as a sixth level cleric of a good deity). By this ruling, the Good aura would override the evil. The cleric would only show up on Detect Good. He would be safe from holy word and harmed by unholy word, and so on. In the case of a tie (1st-level evil cleric of good deity, with two faint auras), I'd leave it to the DM to decide which better reflects the true nature of the character. I'll also point out that in the case of a truly corrupt cleric, it's up to the DM to decide if he's even worshipping a good god at all. The misguided cleric may do evil in the name of the Flame while believing himself to be righteous. If, however, he knowingly performs acts that violate the principles of his faith, it may be that he's NOT a cleric of a good god. He may have the same domains, but remember that in Eberron any cleric can "found a religion" if you will. He may even be technically a follower of the Cults of the Dragon Below, even though he holds office in the Church of the Silver Flame. In this case, his soul isn't actually touched by the Flame and he shouldn't have that good aura. As for the paladin of the evil faith: this raises an entirely different issue, which is how the paladin interprets detect evil. I'm not going to get into this here, because it's dealt with on lots of other threads and, I believe, in the Silver Flame dragonshard. A critical question is whether the paladin opposes all things that detect as evil, or all things that DO evil - which, in Eberron, may be two entirely separate categories. I lean towards the latter approach. Detect evil is a tool for the paladin, warning him that people who detect as evil harbor darkness in their souls and may be more likely to perform evil actions. But it's not a license to kill, or an indication that the evil man will ever do evil. it's like Yoda looking at Luke and saying "There is much anger in this one." And yet, Luke turns out to be a hero. If the paladin detects evil, he knows that the person has a hard road to the light... nothing more. But at the end of the day, you'll have to decide what path makes the most sense for your campaign.
Jabberwocky888 01-14-08, 02:24 PM	Thanks, Hellcow. I'm getting the picture. These shades of grey are one of the things in the setting I like the most and I just want it to be consistent with the overall rules (or with their interpretation I give my players). As for the paladin, I totally agree with the point that detecting evil doesn't mean a license to kill or an actual evil-doer. On the other hand, a BoV paladin could have a hard time sticking to his religion when the religion itself (or its representatives and champions at least) registers as evil. Then again, he could just interpret the fact that darkness has harboured within the organisation, which can actually happen to all churches sometimes. Just a reason to try harder for such a character.
Ellorin 01-16-08, 10:53 AM	Thanks, Hellcow. I'm getting the picture. These shades of grey are one of the things in the setting I like the most and I just want it to be consistent with the overall rules (or with their interpretation I give my players). As for the paladin, I totally agree with the point that detecting evil doesn't mean a license to kill or an actual evil-doer. On the other hand, a BoV paladin could have a hard time sticking to his religion when the religion itself (or its representatives and champions at least) registers as evil. Then again, he could just interpret the fact that darkness has harboured within the organisation, which can actually happen to all churches sometimes. Just a reason to try harder for such a character. Perhaps the BoV paladin would interpret the evil alignment of, say, a Vol vampire as the influence of Mabar, another side effect of the sacrifice the church's champions made. It's just the negative energy and only to be expected to react that way to the detect evil spell. Nothing to worry about, at least per se.
ChaoticGood 01-17-08, 01:02 AM	Or, to put Ellorin's idea another way, a Blood of Vol paladin could see the undead of Karrnath as tragic heroes who have given up their sacred blood to defend their kinsmen, even in death. Such a figure would still be opposed to independent undead, who are much more likely to go on a rampage and harm innocent members of the church, and to the use of undead against civilians.
Ellorin 01-17-08, 01:50 PM	Or, to put Ellorin's idea another way, a Blood of Vol paladin could see the undead of Karrnath as tragic heroes who have given up their sacred blood to defend their kinsmen, even in death. Such a figure would still be opposed to independent undead, who are much more likely to go on a rampage and harm innocent members of the church, and to the use of undead against civilians. Certainly! By the way, as our current campaign goes on and a trek to the ring of Storms will certainly take place(hunting agents of the Emerald Claw, of course), it's the paladin's stance towards the Qabalrin forebears of the faith that mystifies me ...what to expect?