Drow and the Silver Flame. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Drow and the Silver Flame. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bungo_underhill
05-18-07, 07:53 AM So we are told on Xen'Drik that there is a Drow cult (?) "The Firebinders" who believe (roughly speaking) that one day they will be led to "the promised land of fire".

As this belief has been around since about the time of giant civilisation I think there is certainly room for some misinterpretations of original prophecies (or whatever) to have crept in.

What if the original teaching was they would be led to the Flame, and this got corrupted into the land of flame/fire, at a later time? These Drow are waiting for there physical selves to be taken to a physical destination (Fernia?) but the original teaching was that there souls would be led to join the Silver Flame (although they wouldn't have known it as such then and maybe not even now being so insular and xenophobic and all.).

What do people think of this?
Can anyone backup/refute this possibility?

If they found out about the Drows beliefs could a delegate be sent from Thrane to tell Drow that their "promised land" has arrived?
Fabius Maximus
05-18-07, 09:14 AM Said delegate would be sacrificed rather fast.

But the idea is workable. There is only one problem: the Sulatar would have to have an older connection to the flame, or it wouldn't be a heresy.
mahavira
05-18-07, 09:45 AM The Sulatar flame cult COULD be a precursor to the Silver Flame, or it COULD be the worship of some ancient balor/pit fiend from Fernia. More to the point, so long as the Sulatar have divine casters, the envoy would have to have some pretty serious juju to convince them that their traditional practices are incorrect. Also bear in mind the average alignment and culture of the would-be converts: neutral evil with the destruction, evil and fire domains.

"So you say we have to be self sacrificing and protect the...ih-no-scent..., and our current high priest says we should conquer the scorpion worshipping savages and rule over all Xendrik before we ascend to teh promised land. Would you rather be cooked rare, medium or well done?"

Just remember the smackdown Moses had to put on Pharaoh, and that's probably the kind of thing you'd need to convince an evil civilization with its own divine casters to change their ways. If Jaela didn't lose her powers away from home, she might be able to do what it takes to at least make the Sulatar consider the possibility they were in error, but I doubt Joe Missionary would impress them much.
Psionycx
05-18-07, 02:51 PM It pays to remember not to get too hung up on the word "flame" in "Silver Flame". The Silver Flame is not really associated with the element of Fire. It just happens to be a fiery manifestation of divine (Positive) energy.

That said, it's not inconceivable that they could have started out worshipping one thing and ended up worshipping another.
Ukkic
05-18-07, 06:06 PM I think it is an interesting possibility, and if its not truw, which is probalby the case, a worshiper or the Silver Flame, or some theology professor might try to draw that conclusion.

It would make for an interesting article in the Korrenberg Chronicles.

~Ukkic
tallric_kruush
05-18-07, 06:14 PM The Sulatar beliefs originated with the Fire Giant overlords their ancestors used to serve. I'm pretty sure that was laid out explicitly; likely in SoX. The Sulatar of the Obsidian City play a large role in Book 2 of Keith Baker's The Dreaming Dark trilogy, as well. If you haven't had a chance to read it, I highly recommend the series. I do appreciate good brainstorming, though.;)

I, too, saw fit to brainstorm on a drow "Serpent Cult". I won't bury you with all the details, but I'd like to share the basic idea, since it's never likely to see the light of day otherwise.

I had created a union of drow tribes that were part of a "Serpent Cult", with the obvious connections to the Silver Flame. The conglomerate tribe had formed centuries ago at the instigation of a couatl. She sought to protect the prison of a powerful fiend. A small group of fire giants, led by a Half-Fiend Fire Giant, intended to free the fiend from its prison. In the ages past, goodly giants had served as allies and guardians in helping protect the site. In later times, with the Titan empire long gone (and no well-disposed giants of any number near at hand) a couatl convinced first a single tribe of drow to aid her cause. Through that tribe, others were gathered, the forces of nature were marshalled (by the druids of the tribes), and the prison was successfully protected. The conglomerate tribe continues to guard the area around the site centuries later, and they revere the memory of the heroic ancient couatls. The even interact with living couatls from time to time.

This was all part of an eight page backstory for a drow gestalt Druid//Swordsage character I was briefly able to play.
Fabius Maximus
05-19-07, 09:29 AM Damn, I knew I made my mind up about drow worshipping the Flame a few months ago. They got the idea from a couatl.

I need to write these ideas down in the future, lest I forget them.
tallric_kruush
05-19-07, 11:58 AM Damn, I knew I made my mind up about drow worshipping the Flame a few months ago. They got the idea from a couatl.

I need to write these ideas down in the future, lest I forget them.

I know I mentioned my character's backstory several times within the past couple of months on a few of the "Drow" threads. Since it inspired little comment, I almost felt like a spammer.:) I'm glad if you felt the idea was worthy of noting. It was one of the longer backstories I've bothered to write out. Most are a page or two.

It had to be a little longer, I guess, to explain why tribes of "survival is everything" drow would turn into noble, self-sacrificing protectors. I wrote it in a lot more detail than presented here, with a scouting party (and later the whole tribe) experiencing a visit from the couatl. They took it as a visit from one of the great spirits, and so were eager to get on board.
Fabius Maximus
05-19-07, 01:49 PM People tend to ignore long posting on the internet. I know I do, lest the issue really interests me.
tallric_kruush
05-19-07, 01:59 PM People tend to ignore long posting on the internet. I know I do, lest the issue really interests me.

Yeah, and mine often become a few paragraphs long.:embarrass I don't post much, but when I do I usually have a few paragraphs worth to say. I guess that's why I tend to read the longer posts (at least if the poster has established himself as worth reading :) ). I find some good nuggets among those many sentences.
Edymnion
05-19-07, 02:52 PM It pays to remember not to get too hung up on the word "flame" in "Silver Flame". The Silver Flame is not really associated with the element of Fire. It just happens to be a fiery manifestation of divine (Positive) energy.Yeah, it just happens to *LOOK* like a flame. Its not even hot.
bungo_underhill
05-22-07, 03:45 PM Wow thanks for all the feedback guys.

I think I might just work in the Thrane Scholar and his mad (or seemingly so) theories into one of my groups advetures.
tallric_kruush
05-22-07, 08:18 PM Wow thanks for all the feedback guys.

I think I might just work in the Thrane Scholar and his mad (or seemingly so) theories into one of my groups advetures.

Another thing about NPC scholar-types-- No one ever said they have to be right. I just received FoE today, and I liked how one sidebar had scholars speculating upon why the Blood of Vol would use a dragon skull in their religious symbology. They had a few guesses, all of which were wrong.

The NPC scholar might come up with an idea and recruit the PCs as escorts on his quest into Xen'drik/Q'barra/wherever to prove his hypothesis. Only when they get there do the PCs and NPC realize how wrong he really was.
mahavira
05-22-07, 11:14 PM A couple of other options:

1) The Sulatar hear about this silver flame thing, and want to see if it's 'correct'. They send a commando squad to kidnap Jaela and bring her to their city for testing.

2) Among the emissaries sent to the Sulatar is a dark flame cultist, who thinks they might be kindred spirits/thinks they have some ancient relic of the flame ripe for corruption (or an ancient relic of the rajah in the flame).
hiryuu
05-24-07, 12:17 PM The Sulatar beliefs originated with the Fire Giant overlords their ancestors used to serve. I'm pretty sure that was laid out explicitly; likely in SoX. The Sulatar of the Obsidian City play a large role in Book 2 of Keith Baker's The Dreaming Dark trilogy, as well. If you haven't had a chance to read it, I highly recommend the series. I do appreciate good brainstorming, though.;)

This mentality is why I left FR.

1. Novels ain't canon.
2. This is Eberron, they go out of their way to say even sourcebooks outside the main book ain't canon.

______________________

This is a neat idea. It also smacks of the Imperialistic "but you're just worshipping our religion under a different name!" type stuff Britain tried to pull on pretty much every native culture they ran across, often to violent results. Whether it's true or not, it'd make for an awesome setup.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-24-07, 07:45 PM > It also smacks of the Imperialistic "but you're just worshipping our religion
> under a different name!" type stuff Britain tried to pull on pretty much every
> native culture they ran across, often to violent results.

In Eberron, the Sovereign Host faith generally takes this attitude towards other religions, but they're not generally given to becoming violent about it. There isn't the drive of imperialism behind it, so it tends to be more along the lines of, "Hey, here's another interesting interpretation of our gods!"
kentonblack
05-24-07, 09:30 PM Just remember the smackdown Moses had to put on Pharaoh, and that's probably the kind of thing you'd need to convince an evil civilization with its own divine casters to change their ways.

"Moses smackdown " is SO coming up in my next DMing session. I just now need to build a huge drow cleric of vulkoor!
mahavira
05-24-07, 10:54 PM > It also smacks of the Imperialistic "but you're just worshipping our religion
> under a different name!" type stuff Britain tried to pull on pretty much every
> native culture they ran across, often to violent results.

In Eberron, the Sovereign Host faith generally takes this attitude towards other religions, but they're not generally given to becoming violent about it. There isn't the drive of imperialism behind it, so it tends to be more along the lines of, "Hey, here's another interesting interpretation of our gods!"

Pretty much any missionary uses the above tactic, though it's more common when peaceful conversion is intended (no need to come up with explanations when you're saying "convert or die"). Buddhist missionaries in Japan did the exact same thing when they ran into the local Shinto deities.

As to the Sovreign Host and Silver Flame, they've got a pretty odd relationship to begin with: Tira Marron was a paladin of Dol Arrah when she became one with the Flame. It's difficult for the Flame church to take too negative a view of the Host church.

Oh, and as to Moses-style smackdown, just make sure none of the PCs are firstborn...
tallric_kruush
05-25-07, 07:28 PM This mentality is why I left FR.

1. Novels ain't canon.
2. This is Eberron, they go out of their way to say even sourcebooks outside the main book ain't canon.

I've never seen that said of the sourcebooks themselves, but it definitely seems in line with the general approach they've taken with Eberron.

I, too, "left" FR for the reason to which you refer. I don't think this is the same thing, though. (I think the non-canon approach was taken to avoid the issues of disparate authors advancing the in-game timeline that plague FR. It certainly can apply in a broader sense, however). If someone wants the Sulatar to be worship the Silver Flame, that's okay. It's their game, after all. That said, the fluff we've been given is quite good, and I wasn't sure the OP was familiar with it. Many on the boards haven't been exposed to every supplement or novel. I wasn't trying to be dogmatic about what the OP could or couldn't do. I simply wanted to share the wonderful (IMO) and interesting background the Sulatar have already been given.

Sulatar is giant for "firebinder". They decorate themselves in red and orange flame tattoos. They wield flaming weapons and live in a city of volcanic glass. I think the creator's intent is pretty clear. Rather than changing all these interesting things about the Sulatar that have already been written, why not just create your own drow culture that does worship the Silver Flame. I know I did. I've posted a decent amount of info on it a number of times. Xen'drik's a big place. There's plenty of room to create new things on our own without casting aside the gems that have been provided in the sourcebooks.
kentonblack
05-25-07, 10:05 PM This disagreement may all boil down to one thing

I htink he meantthat he only had one group be silver flame worshipping sulatar. As in there are people from the bronx who are new yorkers.

HOPEFULLY, he never intended to meen ALL his sulatar were worshippers of the silver flame..I hope, otherwise i look like a dummy for posting this.
tallric_kruush
05-25-07, 10:27 PM Originally Posted by kentonblack
HOPEFULLY, he never intended to meen ALL his sulatar were worshippers of the silver flame..I hope, otherwise i look like a dummy for posting this.

I think bungo_underhill was suggesting a "What if..." scenario that the original beliefs and prophecies of the early Sulatar foretold a destiny tied to the Silver Flame, rather than the plane of Fernia. It's not a bad idea; and in retrospect I'm not sure my original post concerning the Sulatar backstory was needed (no matter how helpful I thought I was being at the time). He showed a good knowledge of their beliefs in his original post.

I prefer the Sulatar as is/as written, with their ties to Fire Giants and Fernia. Yet, my opinion diminishes Bungo's idea in no way whatsoever. The best thing about these boards is the diversity of ideas. We'd all get bored pretty quickly if everything were cut and dry.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bungo_underhill 05-18-07, 07:53 AM	So we are told on Xen'Drik that there is a Drow cult (?) "The Firebinders" who believe (roughly speaking) that one day they will be led to "the promised land of fire". As this belief has been around since about the time of giant civilisation I think there is certainly room for some misinterpretations of original prophecies (or whatever) to have crept in. What if the original teaching was they would be led to the Flame, and this got corrupted into the land of flame/fire, at a later time? These Drow are waiting for there physical selves to be taken to a physical destination (Fernia?) but the original teaching was that there souls would be led to join the Silver Flame (although they wouldn't have known it as such then and maybe not even now being so insular and xenophobic and all.). What do people think of this? Can anyone backup/refute this possibility? If they found out about the Drows beliefs could a delegate be sent from Thrane to tell Drow that their "promised land" has arrived?
Fabius Maximus 05-18-07, 09:14 AM	Said delegate would be sacrificed rather fast. But the idea is workable. There is only one problem: the Sulatar would have to have an older connection to the flame, or it wouldn't be a heresy.
mahavira 05-18-07, 09:45 AM	The Sulatar flame cult COULD be a precursor to the Silver Flame, or it COULD be the worship of some ancient balor/pit fiend from Fernia. More to the point, so long as the Sulatar have divine casters, the envoy would have to have some pretty serious juju to convince them that their traditional practices are incorrect. Also bear in mind the average alignment and culture of the would-be converts: neutral evil with the destruction, evil and fire domains. "So you say we have to be self sacrificing and protect the...ih-no-scent..., and our current high priest says we should conquer the scorpion worshipping savages and rule over all Xendrik before we ascend to teh promised land. Would you rather be cooked rare, medium or well done?" Just remember the smackdown Moses had to put on Pharaoh, and that's probably the kind of thing you'd need to convince an evil civilization with its own divine casters to change their ways. If Jaela didn't lose her powers away from home, she might be able to do what it takes to at least make the Sulatar consider the possibility they were in error, but I doubt Joe Missionary would impress them much.
Psionycx 05-18-07, 02:51 PM	It pays to remember not to get too hung up on the word "flame" in "Silver Flame". The Silver Flame is not really associated with the element of Fire. It just happens to be a fiery manifestation of divine (Positive) energy. That said, it's not inconceivable that they could have started out worshipping one thing and ended up worshipping another.
Ukkic 05-18-07, 06:06 PM	I think it is an interesting possibility, and if its not truw, which is probalby the case, a worshiper or the Silver Flame, or some theology professor might try to draw that conclusion. It would make for an interesting article in the Korrenberg Chronicles. ~Ukkic
tallric_kruush 05-18-07, 06:14 PM	The Sulatar beliefs originated with the Fire Giant overlords their ancestors used to serve. I'm pretty sure that was laid out explicitly; likely in SoX. The Sulatar of the Obsidian City play a large role in Book 2 of Keith Baker's The Dreaming Dark trilogy, as well. If you haven't had a chance to read it, I highly recommend the series. I do appreciate good brainstorming, though.;) I, too, saw fit to brainstorm on a drow "Serpent Cult". I won't bury you with all the details, but I'd like to share the basic idea, since it's never likely to see the light of day otherwise. I had created a union of drow tribes that were part of a "Serpent Cult", with the obvious connections to the Silver Flame. The conglomerate tribe had formed centuries ago at the instigation of a couatl. She sought to protect the prison of a powerful fiend. A small group of fire giants, led by a Half-Fiend Fire Giant, intended to free the fiend from its prison. In the ages past, goodly giants had served as allies and guardians in helping protect the site. In later times, with the Titan empire long gone (and no well-disposed giants of any number near at hand) a couatl convinced first a single tribe of drow to aid her cause. Through that tribe, others were gathered, the forces of nature were marshalled (by the druids of the tribes), and the prison was successfully protected. The conglomerate tribe continues to guard the area around the site centuries later, and they revere the memory of the heroic ancient couatls. The even interact with living couatls from time to time. This was all part of an eight page backstory for a drow gestalt Druid//Swordsage character I was briefly able to play.
Fabius Maximus 05-19-07, 09:29 AM	Damn, I knew I made my mind up about drow worshipping the Flame a few months ago. They got the idea from a couatl. I need to write these ideas down in the future, lest I forget them.
tallric_kruush 05-19-07, 11:58 AM	Damn, I knew I made my mind up about drow worshipping the Flame a few months ago. They got the idea from a couatl. I need to write these ideas down in the future, lest I forget them. I know I mentioned my character's backstory several times within the past couple of months on a few of the "Drow" threads. Since it inspired little comment, I almost felt like a spammer.:) I'm glad if you felt the idea was worthy of noting. It was one of the longer backstories I've bothered to write out. Most are a page or two. It had to be a little longer, I guess, to explain why tribes of "survival is everything" drow would turn into noble, self-sacrificing protectors. I wrote it in a lot more detail than presented here, with a scouting party (and later the whole tribe) experiencing a visit from the couatl. They took it as a visit from one of the great spirits, and so were eager to get on board.
Fabius Maximus 05-19-07, 01:49 PM	People tend to ignore long posting on the internet. I know I do, lest the issue really interests me.
tallric_kruush 05-19-07, 01:59 PM	People tend to ignore long posting on the internet. I know I do, lest the issue really interests me. Yeah, and mine often become a few paragraphs long.:embarrass I don't post much, but when I do I usually have a few paragraphs worth to say. I guess that's why I tend to read the longer posts (at least if the poster has established himself as worth reading :) ). I find some good nuggets among those many sentences.
Edymnion 05-19-07, 02:52 PM	It pays to remember not to get too hung up on the word "flame" in "Silver Flame". The Silver Flame is not really associated with the element of Fire. It just happens to be a fiery manifestation of divine (Positive) energy.Yeah, it just happens to LOOK like a flame. Its not even hot.
bungo_underhill 05-22-07, 03:45 PM	Wow thanks for all the feedback guys. I think I might just work in the Thrane Scholar and his mad (or seemingly so) theories into one of my groups advetures.
tallric_kruush 05-22-07, 08:18 PM	Wow thanks for all the feedback guys. I think I might just work in the Thrane Scholar and his mad (or seemingly so) theories into one of my groups advetures. Another thing about NPC scholar-types-- No one ever said they have to be right. I just received FoE today, and I liked how one sidebar had scholars speculating upon why the Blood of Vol would use a dragon skull in their religious symbology. They had a few guesses, all of which were wrong. The NPC scholar might come up with an idea and recruit the PCs as escorts on his quest into Xen'drik/Q'barra/wherever to prove his hypothesis. Only when they get there do the PCs and NPC realize how wrong he really was.
mahavira 05-22-07, 11:14 PM	A couple of other options: 1) The Sulatar hear about this silver flame thing, and want to see if it's 'correct'. They send a commando squad to kidnap Jaela and bring her to their city for testing. 2) Among the emissaries sent to the Sulatar is a dark flame cultist, who thinks they might be kindred spirits/thinks they have some ancient relic of the flame ripe for corruption (or an ancient relic of the rajah in the flame).
hiryuu 05-24-07, 12:17 PM	The Sulatar beliefs originated with the Fire Giant overlords their ancestors used to serve. I'm pretty sure that was laid out explicitly; likely in SoX. The Sulatar of the Obsidian City play a large role in Book 2 of Keith Baker's The Dreaming Dark trilogy, as well. If you haven't had a chance to read it, I highly recommend the series. I do appreciate good brainstorming, though.;) This mentality is why I left FR. 1. Novels ain't canon. 2. This is Eberron, they go out of their way to say even sourcebooks outside the main book ain't canon. ______________________ This is a neat idea. It also smacks of the Imperialistic "but you're just worshipping our religion under a different name!" type stuff Britain tried to pull on pretty much every native culture they ran across, often to violent results. Whether it's true or not, it'd make for an awesome setup.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-24-07, 07:45 PM	> It also smacks of the Imperialistic "but you're just worshipping our religion > under a different name!" type stuff Britain tried to pull on pretty much every > native culture they ran across, often to violent results. In Eberron, the Sovereign Host faith generally takes this attitude towards other religions, but they're not generally given to becoming violent about it. There isn't the drive of imperialism behind it, so it tends to be more along the lines of, "Hey, here's another interesting interpretation of our gods!"
kentonblack 05-24-07, 09:30 PM	Just remember the smackdown Moses had to put on Pharaoh, and that's probably the kind of thing you'd need to convince an evil civilization with its own divine casters to change their ways. "Moses smackdown " is SO coming up in my next DMing session. I just now need to build a huge drow cleric of vulkoor!
mahavira 05-24-07, 10:54 PM	> It also smacks of the Imperialistic "but you're just worshipping our religion > under a different name!" type stuff Britain tried to pull on pretty much every > native culture they ran across, often to violent results. In Eberron, the Sovereign Host faith generally takes this attitude towards other religions, but they're not generally given to becoming violent about it. There isn't the drive of imperialism behind it, so it tends to be more along the lines of, "Hey, here's another interesting interpretation of our gods!" Pretty much any missionary uses the above tactic, though it's more common when peaceful conversion is intended (no need to come up with explanations when you're saying "convert or die"). Buddhist missionaries in Japan did the exact same thing when they ran into the local Shinto deities. As to the Sovreign Host and Silver Flame, they've got a pretty odd relationship to begin with: Tira Marron was a paladin of Dol Arrah when she became one with the Flame. It's difficult for the Flame church to take too negative a view of the Host church. Oh, and as to Moses-style smackdown, just make sure none of the PCs are firstborn...
tallric_kruush 05-25-07, 07:28 PM	This mentality is why I left FR. 1. Novels ain't canon. 2. This is Eberron, they go out of their way to say even sourcebooks outside the main book ain't canon. I've never seen that said of the sourcebooks themselves, but it definitely seems in line with the general approach they've taken with Eberron. I, too, "left" FR for the reason to which you refer. I don't think this is the same thing, though. (I think the non-canon approach was taken to avoid the issues of disparate authors advancing the in-game timeline that plague FR. It certainly can apply in a broader sense, however). If someone wants the Sulatar to be worship the Silver Flame, that's okay. It's their game, after all. That said, the fluff we've been given is quite good, and I wasn't sure the OP was familiar with it. Many on the boards haven't been exposed to every supplement or novel. I wasn't trying to be dogmatic about what the OP could or couldn't do. I simply wanted to share the wonderful (IMO) and interesting background the Sulatar have already been given. Sulatar is giant for "firebinder". They decorate themselves in red and orange flame tattoos. They wield flaming weapons and live in a city of volcanic glass. I think the creator's intent is pretty clear. Rather than changing all these interesting things about the Sulatar that have already been written, why not just create your own drow culture that does worship the Silver Flame. I know I did. I've posted a decent amount of info on it a number of times. Xen'drik's a big place. There's plenty of room to create new things on our own without casting aside the gems that have been provided in the sourcebooks.
kentonblack 05-25-07, 10:05 PM	This disagreement may all boil down to one thing I htink he meantthat he only had one group be silver flame worshipping sulatar. As in there are people from the bronx who are new yorkers. HOPEFULLY, he never intended to meen ALL his sulatar were worshippers of the silver flame..I hope, otherwise i look like a dummy for posting this.
tallric_kruush 05-25-07, 10:27 PM	Originally Posted by kentonblack HOPEFULLY, he never intended to meen ALL his sulatar were worshippers of the silver flame..I hope, otherwise i look like a dummy for posting this. I think bungo_underhill was suggesting a "What if..." scenario that the original beliefs and prophecies of the early Sulatar foretold a destiny tied to the Silver Flame, rather than the plane of Fernia. It's not a bad idea; and in retrospect I'm not sure my original post concerning the Sulatar backstory was needed (no matter how helpful I thought I was being at the time). He showed a good knowledge of their beliefs in his original post. I prefer the Sulatar as is/as written, with their ties to Fire Giants and Fernia. Yet, my opinion diminishes Bungo's idea in no way whatsoever. The best thing about these boards is the diversity of ideas. We'd all get bored pretty quickly if everything were cut and dry.