Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 03-17-07, 11:49 PM	Looking over the FoE cleric quick reference sheet, it seems like Eberron has a dearth of chaotic religions. Does anyone else think so? I realize it doesn't really matter as far as clerics are concerned, but I'm wondering why. Lawful Neutral Chaotic Total Good 3 5 1 9 Neutral 2 4 1 7 Evil 2 6 1 9 Total 7 15 3 25 There are only three chaotic gods. Furthermore, all three of them are part of the Sovereign Host or Dark Six, which are on the whole neutral on the L/C axis. The Traveller seems to be widely worshipped by those who don't worship the Dark Six as a whole, especially changelings and doppelgangers, but he's still part of the same pantheon. If you take out the individual gods and treat the pantheonic religions wholistically, then the chart drops to: Lawful Neutral Chaotic Total Good 1 2 0 3 Neutral 1 2 0 3 Evil 2 2 0 4 Total 4 6 0 10 This isn't a huge deal, since clerics aren't tied by alignment, but I do find it a bit curious. Anyone else? Or am I just missing something obvious?
Romulus LoneWolf 03-18-07, 12:26 AM	Well, I've always pictured the Cults of the Dragon Below as being "Chaos-Cults" in the Warhammeresque sense, as they are a bunch of insane cultists trying to topple the existing order to unleash mad horror upon it. To a lesser extent, pretty much all of the Dark Six can have Chaotic aspects to their worship; The Fury, for exemple, sounds like she'd appreciate insane, passionate worshippers.
Nived 03-18-07, 01:20 AM	Or it could just be that 'Organized' religion has a lawful tendancy.
Darth Syntax 03-18-07, 02:51 AM	Nived is correct I believe. Philosophically chaotic organizations are inherently problematic, especially religions. The rituals, the rites, the whole religion bit, just don't really work in a chaotic fashion. Now, this dosen't mean one can't mean that religions (such as a mystery cult of Olladra) would not engage in practices that might seem to fit with stereotypically chaotic behaviors, but the fact that they have become ritualized and suffused with meanings effectively removes the element of pure chaos from them. Then again, there is no real chaos. Randomness is merely a sensory perception which arises from lacking complete understanding. If we knew all the facts we would see that everything is inherently part of the pattern.
taski 03-18-07, 02:59 AM	If you consider the Druidic sects as religions, I would think a number of them are chaotic or chaotic leaning. Namely, the Ashbound, the Children of Winter, and the Greensingers. That said, chaotic individuals don't tend to be attracted to faiths handed down from others, but would rather define and/or discover their own interpretation.
Cifer 03-18-07, 11:00 AM	I concur with Nived and Darth - religions are inherently leaning towards lawfulness, since they demand that their believers follow a certain code of actions.
JulesCARV 03-18-07, 12:10 PM	The Greensingers are chaotic. The Children of Winter don't really seem to be. the Ashbound seem to be, if anything, quite lawful.
yrogerg 03-18-07, 12:34 PM	The Greensingers are chaotic. The Children of Winter don't really seem to be. the Ashbound seem to be, if anything, quite lawful. Right. The Children of Winter seem NE, more than CN. Greensingers are CN, Ashbound are LN, Wardens of the Wood are mostly NG, and I suspect the Gatekeepers are largely N. A sect for every alignment!
Daydreamer 03-18-07, 06:43 PM	Id suggest that many of the non mainstream religions would be chaotic. The ppl of skykarn? (spelling?) that place in Sarlona, the ppl worship nature there, they would likely be chaotic-this is not neutral druid type worship. Though im sure they have alot of nuetral priests 2.
mhacdebhandia 03-18-07, 06:51 PM	As others have said, it makes sense to me that the organised religion of "civilised Eberron" would be on the whole more Lawful than Chaotic. I note that James Wyatt is one of Eberron's developers, and he has a pretty clear bias towards the Lawful alignments, as his work on the Book of Exalted Deeds demonstrates.
Edymnion 03-18-07, 07:11 PM	FoE also makes a good point. The "good" gods are the civilized gods, for the most part. They are the ones that allow civilization to exist in an orderly fashion, while for the most part, the "evil" gods are the unpredictable savage forces in the world. And even the wild good gods are seen through the lense of civilization (harvest and the hunt).
Just another user 03-18-07, 07:17 PM	Exactly, the Host and the six are less about Good and Evil gods and more about tame or civilized and "untamed" or savages gods. The dark six are not gods of evil are gods of things frown upon in a polite society, like uncontrolled emotions, the raw instinct of survival, or the unchecked curiosity.
Hellcow 03-18-07, 07:32 PM	The Traveller seems to be widely worshipped by those who don't worship the Dark Six as a whole, especially changelings and doppelgangers, but he's still part of the same pantheon. Now, this dosen't mean one can't mean that religions (such as a mystery cult of Olladra)... Darth Syntax is on the right track here. The bulk of the followers of the Sovereign Host recognize the Nine and Six. But the point of the Sovereign Host is that it includes a vast number of subsects and variations that don't recognize the authority of the standardized doctrine. The medusas of Cazhaak Draal believe that the Shadow brought the gift of life and magic to their kind - but for all that they worship a member of the Dark Six, that doesn't mean they love the Devourer or the Fury. The shapeshifters of the Cabinet of Faces revere the Traveler, and only the Traveler; as far as they are concerned, the other deities of the Sovereign Host and Dark Six are irrelevant. Likewise, I am certain that there are sects devoted to the ecstatic worship of the Fury, who would undoubtedly challenge the placement of their goddess in the Dark Six. Remember that worshippers don't have to match the alignment of their deity. Many who follow the Path of Light are Lawful Good, but as a religion, the PoL is Lawful Neutral. As others have noted, few religions are inherently chaotic, because that's the nature of organized religion. But I would certainly expect many of the FOLLOWERS of the Fury, the Mockery, and the Cults of the Dragon Below to be chaotic. So as far as religions whose FOLLOWERS are often chaotic, I'd see the Greensingers, the Cults of the Dragon Below, and sects based on the Traveler, the Fury, and Olladra; to a lesser extent, you could also find chaotic cults around Dol Dorn, the Devourer, and the Mockery, though I can easily imagine lawful and neutral sects for each of these (Do you revere the chaos inherent in war, or focus on the discipline of the soldier? Do you emulate the destructive power of nature, or seek to placate it?). The key is that the Nine and Six are essentially building blocks. Yes, the common faith respects them all equally; but there are a host of religions that pick and choose, often creating pairings that are at odds with the standard belief (such as the Restful Watch, which unites Aureon and the Keeper). Thus, the Sovereign Host isn't a single religion; it is the basis for dozens of religions.
mhacdebhandia 03-18-07, 08:48 PM	Keith, how common would you say such individual religions are, compared to the "mainstream" reverence of the Sovereign Host as a whole pantheon?
Hellcow 03-18-07, 09:06 PM	Keith, how common would you say such individual religions are, compared to the "mainstream" reverence of the Sovereign Host as a whole pantheon? It depends on nation. In the Talenta Plains, Shadow Marches, Droaam, and Darguun, worship of variant sects is far greater than the worship of the full pantheon. In the Five Nations, the mainstream faith predominates, but other sects can still be found. Go to Korth and you'll find the Cult of the Three spread among the military. The Restful Watch is a small sect, but has followers across the Five Nations, and IMO operates openly, maintaining cemetaries and performing funerary rites. Essentially, some sects are considered to be heretical or dangerous; others are largely tolerated. The key point as I see it is that the faith of the SH just isn't as monolithic as, say, the Silver Flame. Each council, and each temple, has its own minor unique spin on the faith; this is a consequence of the syncretic nature of the religion, which has absorbed many cultural traditions over the centuries, each of which adds a new spin to the SH practices in that region. As such, one council might rule that a sect like the Restful Watch should be driven from its lands, while another is happy to let the members of the Watch practice their faith. So: The common faith of Nine and Six IS the common faith of the Five Nations; but you could find a variant sect in any village, and you can certainly expect to find at least one variant sect in any large city or metropolis.
UnderworldLord 03-18-07, 09:10 PM	So what you're saying is that like any real religion, it can be branched, accepted, and kept, or twisted and dejected, and still be around. Any village/DM/individual can reject any piece of the teachings and simply replace it with their own doctrines.
Hellcow 03-18-07, 10:17 PM	So what you're saying is that like any real religion, it can be branched, accepted, and kept, or twisted and dejected, and still be around. Any village/DM/individual can reject any piece of the teachings and simply replace it with their own doctrines. Essentially, yes. However, this too will vary by region. Faiths of Eberron notes that the Sovereign Host has no single religious leader, but does have liturgical councils that oversee different territories. So essentially you can expect to see differences when you move between the territories of different councils. Some councils may enforce a strict doctrine on the faithful; others (in my opinion, most) are less rigid. So as a follower of the Sovereign Host, if I see a priest wearing the Octogram, I know that he's a holy man who can speak to the Sovereigns on my behalf - but I won't be too surprised if he has a few unfamiliar habits. Again, it's part of the syncretic nature of the religion. What's important is that we all believe in the law of Aureon, the bounty of Boldrei, and so on - the precise wording of the prayer is not as much of an issue as it is in the more monolithic structure of the Silver Flame. This is highlighted by the fact that many priests of the Sovereign Host have no formal training; rather people respect their bond to the gods. So the wise master smith may be seen as being touched by Aureon, and people may ask for his blessing, even though he himself works in his smithy, not in a church. Sects that clearly DENY the existence of other Sovereigns or which turn established values on their head may be met with hostility. Worship of the Dark Six is generally seen as dangerous and as such, suppressed. However, by and large people are willing to let others practice as they will; if the halflings only worship Balinor, if the orcs call him Baalkan, as long as the basic IDEAS are sound, we all know the truth and they aren't harming us with their odd practices. But again, this varies from region to region, and if you want the strict council that punishes the deviant, go for it. Anyhow, short form: You're right. Like any religion in our world, it has its myriad variations. By and large, the mainstream accepts many of these variations - but there are always those who are too extreme, or others who wish to force people to conform to their vision.
Edymnion 03-19-07, 08:37 AM	The Sovereign Host is a bit like Hinduism, instead of trying to fight to retain a strict independant vision, it survives by absorbing everybody else's gods into it's own pantheon.
The White Sorcerer 03-19-07, 12:32 PM	The Sovereign Host is a bit like Hinduism, instead of trying to fight to retain a strict independant vision, it survives by absorbing everybody else's gods into it's own pantheon. On a similar note, the Zil gnomes kinda remind me of the Japanese. Pretty much any religion is okay, and following two or more won't raise eyebrows.
Cifer 03-19-07, 11:04 PM	@Edy That's not exactly unique to hinduism - the ancient greeks did it all the time, even having temples dedicated to "the unknown god", just in case there was someone mighty they didn't know but who might be ****** off by them not worshipping him.
Kreistor2 03-20-07, 02:58 AM	The Romans were more guilty of that than the Greeks. They stole the Greek pantheon wholesale to form theirs.
Darth Syntax 03-20-07, 03:36 AM	[Classical scholar Hat] Actually, the whole Roman's stealing the Greek gods bit is largely a massive over simplification of Roman religious practice. Both the Greek and Roman gods share a common historical source which accounts for much of their similarity, but there are important differences between Greek and Roman traditions. Take for example the following god-pairs (Greek on the left, Roman on the right) Ares and Mars Although Ares and Mars are both remembered as gods of war, they are quite different in character and in origin. Ares is really more the god of blood lust and rage than he is of just war. Ares is not at all a nice chap, he kills for enjoyment and out of spite. Mars, on the other hand, originated as an agricultural deity who was also a protector god, which is how he eventually became associated with warfare and combat. To put in in Eberron terms, Ares is more like the Mockery, and Mars in more like Dol Dorn or Dol Arrah Poseidon and Neptune Poseidon, as the etymology of his name suggests, was originally an earth god, and especially a god of earthquakes. It is only later that he becomes the god of the sea as well. Neptune, by contrast, appears to have always been a water god. Both Zeus and Jupiter share a common origin, at least in name. They come from the Proto-Indo-European god name *dyēus-pəter "god-father". Zeus comes from the first part of the name *dyēus or from the related *deiwos (also meaning 'god'), and Jupiter is an anglicised form of Iuppiter, which comes from the same compound. Tyr, from Norse myth (Tiw or Tig in old English), also comes from this word, and is the origin of the word "Tuesday". The reason why Zeus and Jupiter are so similar is that they are "cognate" gods; two different cultures realizations of the same original deity. -- It is true that the Romans borrowed a lot from the Greeks, but they didn't just port the Greek religions wholesale into Rome, they grafted onto their already existing traditions elements from the Greek systems. [/Hat]
androkguz 03-20-07, 08:04 PM	Right. The Children of Winter seem NE, more than CN. Greensingers are CN, Ashbound are LN, Wardens of the Wood are mostly NG, and I suspect the Gatekeepers are largely N. A sect for every alignment! Actually, I think the Gatekeepers are the most NG of all of them. C'mon, they dedicate they lives to protect us all, not just the Eldeen Reaches. And the Ashbound don't really have anything of lawful. Check the alingment requirements for the Eldeen Ranger: non-good for the Children (pretty NE), non-evil for the Wardens and the Keepers (very NG), and CN for the Singers (quite CN). The Ashbound have no requirement.
yrogerg 03-20-07, 10:13 PM	Actually, I think the Gatekeepers are the most NG of all of them. C'mon, they dedicate they lives to protect us all, not just the Eldeen Reaches. Yeah, but that's without getting into the *how* of protecting Eberron from the Daelkyr. Personally, I envision at least some of the Gatekeepers as having no problem doing a little Evil to fight the Daelkyr: they have no problem breeding Evil-aligned Horrid Animals for these purposes, after all. Basically, being a *part* of the world makes it a lot easier for me want to stop aliens from destroying it, without my needing to be a particularly selfless person as well. And the Ashbound don't really have anything of lawful. No requirement, no, but their strong belief that arcane (and to a lesser extent, clerical) magic is a violation of the natural order really does go down a lot easier with a strong Lawful perspective behind it, IMO. Obviously, there's lots and lots of wiggle room; my main point is that Eberron's druidic sects make it a lot easier to envision druids running the Neutral gamut, with different sects dominating the various poles.
androkguz 03-21-07, 10:29 AM	Yeah, but that's without getting into the *how* of protecting Eberron from the Daelkyr. Personally, I envision at least some of the Gatekeepers as having no problem doing a little Evil to fight the Daelkyr: they have no problem breeding Evil-aligned Horrid Animals for these purposes, after all. Basically, being a *part* of the world makes it a lot easier for me want to stop aliens from destroying it, without my needing to be a particularly selfless person as well. So you could easly see an evil Gatekeeper? Men, it really doesn't make much sense to me. That kind of argument could easily apply to any "good" group: the silver flame only fights the evil because they are part of the world that the evil wants to destroy/dominate/corrupt and they don't wanna get in the middle of that, the Path of Light is only fighting the Dreaming Dark because the Dreaming Dark wants to destroy them, etc. The only evil thing the Gatekeepers are known to have done is the creation of horrid animals. They do have some sense of selfsacrifice, an evil orc born between the Keepers would certaintly have a better chance of survival if he abandoned the group and left them to protect the world while he does his own stuff. No requirement, no, but their strong belief that arcane (and to a lesser extent, clerical) magic is a violation of the natural order really does go down a lot easier with a strong Lawful perspective behind it, IMO. Well, yeah. But it also goes freaking well when you think of the Ashbound as a brainwashing cult. Besides, they pretent to take down civilization and have nature run free. That sounds chaotic to me. In the end, I think they have space for everyone. Obviously, there's lots and lots of wiggle room; my main point is that Eberron's druidic sects make it a lot easier to envision druids running the Neutral gamut, with different sects dominating the various poles. What sucks is that only one of them is chaotic.
yrogerg 03-22-07, 11:06 PM	So you could easly see an evil Gatekeeper? I could easily picture a Gatekeeper who didn't mind taking rather Evil actions in the name of "Doing what's necessary". Not only that, I could imagine that there's lots and lots of them who would be willing to do so, even if they end up being largely Neutral, all things considered. Fact is, I find that sort of Evil a lot more interesting -and a lot more insidious- than simple narcissism.
ArcTan 03-22-07, 11:53 PM	So you could easly see an evil Gatekeeper? Men, it really doesn't make much sense to me. That kind of argument could easily apply to any "good" group: the silver flame only fights the evil because they are part of the world that the evil wants to destroy/dominate/corrupt and they don't wanna get in the middle of that, the Path of Light is only fighting the Dreaming Dark because the Dreaming Dark wants to destroy them, etc. Well, yes. And Evil members of all of these groups are possible -- hell, Cardinal Krozen is the CotSF's second-in-command and he's Evil. But the point is that the Gatekeepers' message is more Neutral than anything else. "All intruders from outside must be sealed off to protect our world". Not with the emphasis on self-sacrifice and self-improvement of the CotSF, or on community and joy and happiness of the Sovereign Host. Just the mission and only the mission (note that Gatekeepers, unlike mainstream religions, don't seem to care one whit about those destructive evil forces which are native to Eberron).
ArcTan 03-22-07, 11:56 PM	In general, while organized religion itself is more suited to Law than Chaos, I agree, there's also the fact that a Chaotic individual isn't as likely to revere a whole pantheon as a Lawful individual. The pantheon represents the natural order of the world as it is, with all parts in balance -- a Chaotic character would be less likely to worship the structure of the world as a whole and a lot more likely to worship some individual source of creativity, dynamism and change. He'd reject the worship of the whole Host and instead worship only the Traveller as the being who moves in and out of the Host and brings change to their orderly ranks -- or the Fury as the spawn of the unholy union between Host and Six who shakes the old family tree of Arawai and Balinor to its roots -- or the Shadow as the source of the basic chaos and disharmony in Aureon's attempt to codify the laws of the universe and bring them under the Host's control. That kind of thing -- you'd identify with the one renegade god who stands against the rest, not with "the gods" as a whole.
mhacdebhandia 03-23-07, 09:17 AM	Keith, in your opinion, does Erandis d'Vol believe in the tenets of the Blood of Vol? For instance, was she taught to follow the traditions we're told derive from the Qabalrin elves of Xen'drik, or did she simple revive these old ideas as the basis for a religion which she invented in its modern form?