Eberron: How high magic is it ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Eberron: How high magic is it ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Stryfe_Raven
02-22-07, 09:17 PM Unlike Forgotten realms and Greyhawk it's not very clear weather Eberron is a high or mid magic setting, from one prospective there are very few high level casters and even mid level PC casters are rare. That being the case there still seems to be a large amount of magic items and magic powered devices, some of them seem somewhat above what Eberrons tech level and D&D rules allow (even with the dragonmarked houses ). Now Eberron doesn't have the elements that forgotten realms has like epic level casters, item creation feats, spells or mythallar (although I think mythallar like thing would work well in eberron). So that brings us back to my question is eberron considered a high magic setting where magic is common and cities of any significant size use magic like light, mending, Prestidigitation, Purify Food and Drink, and create water to better the lives of there citizens, or is it more like greyhawk with the majority of people living in conditions similar to the middle ages and magic items limited mainly to the upper class ?
Edymnion
02-22-07, 09:28 PM Eberron is actually a "wide magic" setting.
Almost all of the magic is very low level, but its spread out everywhere.
So, while everybody has seen an everburning lantern, which uses just a lvl 1 spell, almost nobody has ever seen a Storm of Vengence.

Eberron is pretty unique that way, actually. Its got the most widespread and common use of magic of any setting to date, but it also has the lowest level of overall magic, since it has so few characters that can do more than cast a lvl 1 or 2 spell.

Its also going to depend on your definition of high and low magic.
For me at least, "high magic" means a setting where high level magic is commonplace. Wizards flinging a Cone of Cold or a Finger of Death are a pretty routine occurance. A "low magic" setting is one where you're lucky to see a magic missle get cast.

So, by my standards, Eberron is a Low-Medium magic setting. The ability to actually cast magic is still fairly special, but its still common enough that people don't take too much special notice. But there is almost nobody in the setting that hasn't seen a magical spell, its effects, or directly benefitted from a magical item.
DyloniusFunk
02-22-07, 09:33 PM I had a whole long response planed but Edy described it better than i ever could. I hate it when you do that:bow:
The White Sorcerer
02-23-07, 04:40 AM Eberron is a very high magic setting. "Wide magic" is a term for the benefit of those who can't separate high magic from high-level magic.
Edymnion
02-23-07, 12:19 PM Eberron is a very high magic setting. "Wide magic" is a term for the benefit of those who can't separate high magic from high-level magic.It would help if you defined your meaning of "high magic". If you're saying that high magic = everybody has magic, then are you saying that Gnomes are an innately high magic race, since every one of them can cast some cantrips?
Cifer
02-23-07, 01:20 PM Eberron is a very high magic setting. "Wide magic" is a term for the benefit of those who can't separate high magic from high-level magic.
You mean, because there is an entry in a dictionary somewhere one can just look up? High-magic, just as High-fantasy can mean so many things that clarification is quite practical.
Myth Master Jr
02-23-07, 01:55 PM It would help if you defined your meaning of "high magic". If you're saying that high magic = everybody has magic, then are you saying that Gnomes are an innately high magic race, since every one of them can cast some cantrips?

I would have to agree with you, Edy. Your definition is much clearer and easier to understand for those unfamiliar with Eberron or, for that matter, those that may be new to D&D all together. Great explanation. I think the term High Magic is over used and very unclear anyway.
The Fireballed Mage
02-23-07, 03:39 PM Rather than "Wide Magic", I use the term "cine-magic" to describe Eberron.

"Cine-magic" means that there's a significant amount of magic around, but almost all of it is background flavour and setting. You use it as props to set the stage, not toys for the PCs to get their greedy little hands on. If you need to have a building levatating to make a good scene for the players, it's there. If you need to have some minor background magical effect in order to make the patron seem rich, it's there.

Most of the spells that people have access to are 0th, 1st, and 2nd level effects. However, under the right conditions impressive magics are available as well: the Floating Towers of Arcanix are on example, as is the Floating Tower of the Twelve. Magical seige engines on the royal castle of Korth (as described on page 110 of 5N) is another example of high powered "cine-magic".

What separates cine-magic from high magic is how PCs interact with the magic. If the PCs can make flying buildings, magical cannons, and other high powered gizmos easily, it's "high magic". If they can only interact with the neat magic toys (and not steal/build them easily), then it's cine-magic.
The White Sorcerer
02-24-07, 01:16 PM If you're saying that high magic = everybody has magic, then are you saying that Gnomes are an innately high magic race, since every one of them can cast some cantrips?

Yup. Gnome society is a quite high-magic society, since anyone with an average charisma can use some cantrips, and I'd say Zil gnomes are unlikely to use Cha as a dump stat.

To me, a high-magic setting has a large amount of magic that is accepted as a part of reality and everyday life. The more obvious and prevalent magic is, the more high-magic the setting is. Sarlona, for example, is not a high-magic setting.
Edymnion
02-24-07, 04:58 PM To me, a high-magic setting has a large amount of magic that is accepted as a part of reality and everyday life.Wow, I think thats the first time I've ever heard anybody essentially say that Faerun was not a high-magic setting... :eek:
Pinky's brain
02-24-07, 05:07 PM Numbers are so much better than semantic debates IMO.

In Sharn spellcasting services upto and including 5th level spells are available. The gold piece limit of Sharn is also high enough to make just about any item purchaseable. In metropolises the highest level casters can be anywhere between 9th and 16th level.

That, however much it might pain some people, is how high level Eberron is.

So in summation, as far as magic items are concerned Eberron is right up there with any other high magic environment. As far as high level NPCs are concerned it's relatively low magic compared to FR, you won't stumble over a near epic retired adventurer in every other tavern but high level characters can be found in any big city.
Myth Master Jr
02-24-07, 06:46 PM Numbers are so much better than semantic debates IMO.

In Sharn spellcasting services upto and including 5th level spells are available. The gold piece limit of Sharn is also high enough to make just about any item purchaseable. In metropolises the highest level casters can be anywhere between 9th and 16th level.

That, however much it might pain some people, is how high level Eberron is.

Technically you're correct. However anyone can finangle a number to win an argument just as Edy finangled a word above to make Forgotten Realms Low Magic. Eberron's avg spell caster isn't popping off 3rd level spells or higher. Their using 0, 1st, and 2nd level spells. Compare that to any other setting my friend and you have low magic.

So in summation, as far as magic items are concerned Eberron is right up there with any other high magic environment. As far as high level NPCs are concerned it's relatively low magic compared to FR, you won't stumble over a near epic retired adventurer in every other tavern but high level characters can be found in any big city.

Again, availability is there, but not of the same caliber of items as Waterdeep. Even though Sharn is also a Metropolis. The cities of Eberron fit the description as it appears in the DMG for gold piece limits and what you can find in the cities, however, the setting itself makes it quite clear that powerful npc's are very rare. With that the items that these pc's could make would also be.
The White Sorcerer
02-25-07, 01:44 AM Compare that to any other setting my friend and you have low magic.

So because elephants are only huge and blue whales are colossal (I think), elephants are actually small?:confused:
Shady314
02-25-07, 07:03 AM So because elephants are only huge and blue whales are colossal (I think), elephants are actually small?:confused:

If the entire world is composed of only elephants and whales then yes. ;)
Myth Master Jr
02-25-07, 08:38 AM Before this deteriorates into a contest of who can make the wittiest yet silliest remark, I'll refer you back to edymion's origional "Wide-magic" comments. It proves a far better explanation than all of the high-magic vs low-magic generalizations that everyone is trying to label Eberron with. The setting falls somewhere in between both, and neither serves to explain the setting very well. That's the point at which I was getting. Thanks anyway for flame baiting. :)
Just another user
02-25-07, 05:34 PM To avoid confusion and pointless debates I think it would help if when describing the quantity of magic into a setting we would use two scale, the high/low magic, that describe the level of power of magic and the Common/rare scale that describe how diffuse is the magic in the setting. So Eberron will be a low, common level magic setting while the forgotten realms would be a high, uncommon/average level magic setting.
The White Sorcerer
02-26-07, 01:54 AM Eh. It's as simple as this: Think about the term "high magic" and what it means. Certainly it has nothing to do with power level. Then just replace "fantasy" with "magic" and you know what high magic means.
johnkretzer
02-26-07, 02:39 AM Ok I am not going with the terms above because I am confused....but this is how have seen it...
Eberron was once a high level magic world(IE powerful magics were once more commonplace) then various disaster strike. Knocking it down with each one. Now that it has started to recover meaning while magic is prevalent it is low level...but higher levels of magic can be find from those ancient ages.(which boils down to old school D&D that you got to go and find you +5 Sword of death, doom, and destruction and wrestle it out of someones hand insted of going to the local Magic Items r' Us and getting it giftwrapped...that is why I love Eberron...well one of the reasons)
Pinky's brain
02-26-07, 10:55 AM Again, availability is there, but not of the same caliber of items as Waterdeep. Even though Sharn is also a Metropolis. The cities of Eberron fit the description as it appears in the DMG for gold piece limits and what you can find in the cities, however, the setting itself makes it quite clear that powerful npc's are very rare. With that the items that these pc's could make would also be.
You are making things up ... the GP limit determines what can be bought.

Even fluff wise your argument doesn't hold. Magic items don't generally get destroyed, what the people present in a city can make is irrelevant ... what has been created in the world over it's entire life is. Yes, even taking that into account there are less high level items ... but since there are less high level adventurers which can afford them it all evens out.

PS. presenting the numbers wasn't done to win an argument (not like this post). The numbers were the argument. That is exactly how high magic Eberron is in terms of NPCs and items in large cities ... now whether anyone wants to call that high/low/wide/deep/whatever is up to them. I just dislike how some people just pretend all sorts of stuff written in the books just doesn't exist. Personally I'd describe Eberron as having high and wide magic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Stryfe_Raven 02-22-07, 09:17 PM	Unlike Forgotten realms and Greyhawk it's not very clear weather Eberron is a high or mid magic setting, from one prospective there are very few high level casters and even mid level PC casters are rare. That being the case there still seems to be a large amount of magic items and magic powered devices, some of them seem somewhat above what Eberrons tech level and D&D rules allow (even with the dragonmarked houses ). Now Eberron doesn't have the elements that forgotten realms has like epic level casters, item creation feats, spells or mythallar (although I think mythallar like thing would work well in eberron). So that brings us back to my question is eberron considered a high magic setting where magic is common and cities of any significant size use magic like light, mending, Prestidigitation, Purify Food and Drink, and create water to better the lives of there citizens, or is it more like greyhawk with the majority of people living in conditions similar to the middle ages and magic items limited mainly to the upper class ?
Edymnion 02-22-07, 09:28 PM	Eberron is actually a "wide magic" setting. Almost all of the magic is very low level, but its spread out everywhere. So, while everybody has seen an everburning lantern, which uses just a lvl 1 spell, almost nobody has ever seen a Storm of Vengence. Eberron is pretty unique that way, actually. Its got the most widespread and common use of magic of any setting to date, but it also has the lowest level of overall magic, since it has so few characters that can do more than cast a lvl 1 or 2 spell. Its also going to depend on your definition of high and low magic. For me at least, "high magic" means a setting where high level magic is commonplace. Wizards flinging a Cone of Cold or a Finger of Death are a pretty routine occurance. A "low magic" setting is one where you're lucky to see a magic missle get cast. So, by my standards, Eberron is a Low-Medium magic setting. The ability to actually cast magic is still fairly special, but its still common enough that people don't take too much special notice. But there is almost nobody in the setting that hasn't seen a magical spell, its effects, or directly benefitted from a magical item.
DyloniusFunk 02-22-07, 09:33 PM	I had a whole long response planed but Edy described it better than i ever could. I hate it when you do that:bow:
The White Sorcerer 02-23-07, 04:40 AM	Eberron is a very high magic setting. "Wide magic" is a term for the benefit of those who can't separate high magic from high-level magic.
Edymnion 02-23-07, 12:19 PM	Eberron is a very high magic setting. "Wide magic" is a term for the benefit of those who can't separate high magic from high-level magic.It would help if you defined your meaning of "high magic". If you're saying that high magic = everybody has magic, then are you saying that Gnomes are an innately high magic race, since every one of them can cast some cantrips?
Cifer 02-23-07, 01:20 PM	Eberron is a very high magic setting. "Wide magic" is a term for the benefit of those who can't separate high magic from high-level magic. You mean, because there is an entry in a dictionary somewhere one can just look up? High-magic, just as High-fantasy can mean so many things that clarification is quite practical.
Myth Master Jr 02-23-07, 01:55 PM	It would help if you defined your meaning of "high magic". If you're saying that high magic = everybody has magic, then are you saying that Gnomes are an innately high magic race, since every one of them can cast some cantrips? I would have to agree with you, Edy. Your definition is much clearer and easier to understand for those unfamiliar with Eberron or, for that matter, those that may be new to D&D all together. Great explanation. I think the term High Magic is over used and very unclear anyway.
The Fireballed Mage 02-23-07, 03:39 PM	Rather than "Wide Magic", I use the term "cine-magic" to describe Eberron. "Cine-magic" means that there's a significant amount of magic around, but almost all of it is background flavour and setting. You use it as props to set the stage, not toys for the PCs to get their greedy little hands on. If you need to have a building levatating to make a good scene for the players, it's there. If you need to have some minor background magical effect in order to make the patron seem rich, it's there. Most of the spells that people have access to are 0th, 1st, and 2nd level effects. However, under the right conditions impressive magics are available as well: the Floating Towers of Arcanix are on example, as is the Floating Tower of the Twelve. Magical seige engines on the royal castle of Korth (as described on page 110 of 5N) is another example of high powered "cine-magic". What separates cine-magic from high magic is how PCs interact with the magic. If the PCs can make flying buildings, magical cannons, and other high powered gizmos easily, it's "high magic". If they can only interact with the neat magic toys (and not steal/build them easily), then it's cine-magic.
The White Sorcerer 02-24-07, 01:16 PM	If you're saying that high magic = everybody has magic, then are you saying that Gnomes are an innately high magic race, since every one of them can cast some cantrips? Yup. Gnome society is a quite high-magic society, since anyone with an average charisma can use some cantrips, and I'd say Zil gnomes are unlikely to use Cha as a dump stat. To me, a high-magic setting has a large amount of magic that is accepted as a part of reality and everyday life. The more obvious and prevalent magic is, the more high-magic the setting is. Sarlona, for example, is not a high-magic setting.
Edymnion 02-24-07, 04:58 PM	To me, a high-magic setting has a large amount of magic that is accepted as a part of reality and everyday life.Wow, I think thats the first time I've ever heard anybody essentially say that Faerun was not a high-magic setting... :eek:
Pinky's brain 02-24-07, 05:07 PM	Numbers are so much better than semantic debates IMO. In Sharn spellcasting services upto and including 5th level spells are available. The gold piece limit of Sharn is also high enough to make just about any item purchaseable. In metropolises the highest level casters can be anywhere between 9th and 16th level. That, however much it might pain some people, is how high level Eberron is. So in summation, as far as magic items are concerned Eberron is right up there with any other high magic environment. As far as high level NPCs are concerned it's relatively low magic compared to FR, you won't stumble over a near epic retired adventurer in every other tavern but high level characters can be found in any big city.
Myth Master Jr 02-24-07, 06:46 PM	Numbers are so much better than semantic debates IMO. In Sharn spellcasting services upto and including 5th level spells are available. The gold piece limit of Sharn is also high enough to make just about any item purchaseable. In metropolises the highest level casters can be anywhere between 9th and 16th level. That, however much it might pain some people, is how high level Eberron is. Technically you're correct. However anyone can finangle a number to win an argument just as Edy finangled a word above to make Forgotten Realms Low Magic. Eberron's avg spell caster isn't popping off 3rd level spells or higher. Their using 0, 1st, and 2nd level spells. Compare that to any other setting my friend and you have low magic. So in summation, as far as magic items are concerned Eberron is right up there with any other high magic environment. As far as high level NPCs are concerned it's relatively low magic compared to FR, you won't stumble over a near epic retired adventurer in every other tavern but high level characters can be found in any big city. Again, availability is there, but not of the same caliber of items as Waterdeep. Even though Sharn is also a Metropolis. The cities of Eberron fit the description as it appears in the DMG for gold piece limits and what you can find in the cities, however, the setting itself makes it quite clear that powerful npc's are very rare. With that the items that these pc's could make would also be.
The White Sorcerer 02-25-07, 01:44 AM	Compare that to any other setting my friend and you have low magic. So because elephants are only huge and blue whales are colossal (I think), elephants are actually small?:confused:
Shady314 02-25-07, 07:03 AM	So because elephants are only huge and blue whales are colossal (I think), elephants are actually small?:confused: If the entire world is composed of only elephants and whales then yes. ;)
Myth Master Jr 02-25-07, 08:38 AM	Before this deteriorates into a contest of who can make the wittiest yet silliest remark, I'll refer you back to edymion's origional "Wide-magic" comments. It proves a far better explanation than all of the high-magic vs low-magic generalizations that everyone is trying to label Eberron with. The setting falls somewhere in between both, and neither serves to explain the setting very well. That's the point at which I was getting. Thanks anyway for flame baiting. :)
Just another user 02-25-07, 05:34 PM	To avoid confusion and pointless debates I think it would help if when describing the quantity of magic into a setting we would use two scale, the high/low magic, that describe the level of power of magic and the Common/rare scale that describe how diffuse is the magic in the setting. So Eberron will be a low, common level magic setting while the forgotten realms would be a high, uncommon/average level magic setting.
The White Sorcerer 02-26-07, 01:54 AM	Eh. It's as simple as this: Think about the term "high magic" and what it means. Certainly it has nothing to do with power level. Then just replace "fantasy" with "magic" and you know what high magic means.
johnkretzer 02-26-07, 02:39 AM	Ok I am not going with the terms above because I am confused....but this is how have seen it... Eberron was once a high level magic world(IE powerful magics were once more commonplace) then various disaster strike. Knocking it down with each one. Now that it has started to recover meaning while magic is prevalent it is low level...but higher levels of magic can be find from those ancient ages.(which boils down to old school D&D that you got to go and find you +5 Sword of death, doom, and destruction and wrestle it out of someones hand insted of going to the local Magic Items r' Us and getting it giftwrapped...that is why I love Eberron...well one of the reasons)
Pinky's brain 02-26-07, 10:55 AM	Again, availability is there, but not of the same caliber of items as Waterdeep. Even though Sharn is also a Metropolis. The cities of Eberron fit the description as it appears in the DMG for gold piece limits and what you can find in the cities, however, the setting itself makes it quite clear that powerful npc's are very rare. With that the items that these pc's could make would also be. You are making things up ... the GP limit determines what can be bought. Even fluff wise your argument doesn't hold. Magic items don't generally get destroyed, what the people present in a city can make is irrelevant ... what has been created in the world over it's entire life is. Yes, even taking that into account there are less high level items ... but since there are less high level adventurers which can afford them it all evens out. PS. presenting the numbers wasn't done to win an argument (not like this post). The numbers were the argument. That is exactly how high magic Eberron is in terms of NPCs and items in large cities ... now whether anyone wants to call that high/low/wide/deep/whatever is up to them. I just dislike how some people just pretend all sorts of stuff written in the books just doesn't exist. Personally I'd describe Eberron as having high and wide magic.