Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lukelightning 07-23-07, 06:32 PM	"Anne Rice meets Ayn Rand."
Loki5654 07-24-07, 01:32 PM	"Something for the Goth kids" :D :D :D (just kidding!)
Nightshade 07-24-07, 03:35 PM	"The Blood is the Life!!!"
Nundahl 07-24-07, 05:44 PM	Nightshade takes the lead.
Symar 07-24-07, 06:21 PM	Nightshade takes the lead. That's only 4!
Kamikaze Chicken 07-24-07, 10:37 PM	"Why Dragons shouldn't screw elves." KAMIKAZE! :chicken: out.
JulesCARV 07-25-07, 12:19 AM	Vengeful, vaguely villainous vampire televangelists. OR! Dagger death evil law necromancer.
Alex_ 07-25-07, 12:55 AM	Man is god. Worship yourself.
Lazaro 07-25-07, 01:17 AM	Goth kids dig dead things
Revvecor 07-25-07, 02:48 AM	Gods?, We are all Gods!
ArcTan 07-25-07, 04:09 AM	Evil, but won't admit it. (This is in contrast to almost every Evil religion D&D has had.)
bykov1 07-25-07, 08:26 AM	Wicked, bad, naughty, evil Vol. Bykov. spam spam spam spam
AntiSean 07-25-07, 09:12 AM	"I'm supposed to drink *what*?"
lukelightning 07-25-07, 11:43 AM	Also a palindrome: Is E. Vol love? Si!
Wauthan 07-25-07, 04:27 PM	"Bite me!" "Metaphorical or jugular?"
Edymnion 07-25-07, 07:32 PM	"We worship life, not death." IMO, way too many people metagame the BoV. Yes, Erandis is evil and uses the religion to her own ends. But the religion itself is not evil. It does not promote evil actions, and is likely the single most humanitarian group in the entire setting. They worship the power that is in life, seek to end human(oid) misery, suffering, illness, and death. They don't want to kill anybody, they don't want to hurt anybody, they want to help everyone live up to their own potential. I actually find the Blood of Vol to be the most noble and self sacrificing of all the religions. Honestly, I think the only real reason its listed as Evil is because of what Erandis has twisted it into.
DragoonDarkfire 07-25-07, 09:44 PM	"We worship life, not death." IMO, way too many people metagame the BoV. Yes, Erandis is evil and uses the religion to her own ends. But the religion itself is not evil. It does not promote evil actions, and is likely the single most humanitarian group in the entire setting. They worship the power that is in life, seek to end human(oid) misery, suffering, illness, and death. They don't want to kill anybody, they don't want to hurt anybody, they want to help everyone live up to their own potential. I actually find the Blood of Vol to be the most noble and self sacrificing of all the religions. Honestly, I think the only real reason its listed as Evil is because of what Erandis has twisted it into. Which leads to one teeny tiny problem in the grand scheme of things. The BoV is trying to eliminate death, plague and basically all mortal ailments correct? What about the small problem of overpopulation? I mean you have all humanoids suddenly becoming immortal and immune to all forms of damage/death/destruction, how does one keep the world from becoming a huge mass of humanoids caught in an eternity of existence. Not even taking into account the mixed blessing that immortality actually is.
androkguz 07-25-07, 10:32 PM	Which leads to one teeny tiny problem in the grand scheme of things. The BoV is trying to eliminate death, plague and basically all mortal ailments correct? What about the small problem of overpopulation? I mean you have all humanoids suddenly becoming immortal and immune to all forms of damage/death/destruction, how does one keep the world from becoming a huge mass of humanoids caught in an eternity of existence. Not even taking into account the mixed blessing that immortality actually is. LOL!!!
androkguz 07-25-07, 10:32 PM	"House Vol will be back!"
Alex_ 07-26-07, 12:40 AM	"We worship life, not death." IMO, way too many people metagame the BoV. Yes, Erandis is evil and uses the religion to her own ends. But the religion itself is not evil. It does not promote evil actions, and is likely the single most humanitarian group in the entire setting. They worship the power that is in life, seek to end human(oid) misery, suffering, illness, and death. They don't want to kill anybody, they don't want to hurt anybody, they want to help everyone live up to their own potential. I actually find the Blood of Vol to be the most noble and self sacrificing of all the religions. Honestly, I think the only real reason its listed as Evil is because of what Erandis has twisted it into. The reason the Blood of Vol is evil is because they don't do any of that for others. Seekers look for personal immortality (or immortality of associates), not necessarily for immortality for all living things. To gain this they would turn to any method, including the use of methods that simply put, involve elemental Evil. They fight to eliminate misery, illness, suffering and death in their own lives- not anyone else's, and most certainly not if means they themselves have to experience any of that. This is in contrast with the Soverign Host. Individuals are more encouraged to subvert themselves for the whole, and that this is a reward in and of itself. The Silver Flame takes this even further and seeks to eliminate all elements of selfishness and greed, replacing them with selfless thoughts and actions. Even the Six, to some degree, believe in subservience and sacrifice in the name of something else, although they're more likely to do it for personal advancement. To a Seeker though, all of the above are fools. A Seeker doesn't live for others or pray to others. Their blood is divine. They're the one deserving of immortality. They're the one they pray to. Not even the Undead, publicly portrayed as heroes of the people are working with the well being of others in mind. They're with Vol, (and sometimes if not always) taking advantage of all these people who see them as authority figures. They think what they're doing is right, smart, justified, and the best choice out of limited choices, but it's still Evil in an elemental sense. A "necessary Evil" if you will.
Need_A_Life 07-26-07, 07:56 AM	"Erandis d'Vol will be back" "Aernal totally sucks, trust me." "For Life, Death and Voooooool!!!!"
Warforged Goblin 07-26-07, 02:40 PM	"Erandis d'Vol is my homegirl" "Junior Emerald Claw Recruiter Club" "Your priest is just wrong" "Our bake sales are messy"
Loki5654 07-26-07, 03:40 PM	"Our bake sales are messy" :rofl:
lukelightning 07-26-07, 04:38 PM	The BoV is trying to eliminate death, plague and basically all mortal ailments correct? What about the small problem of overpopulation?. Birth control.
The White Sorcerer 07-26-07, 04:54 PM	Birth control. So, necromantic birth control, eh?
Edymnion 07-26-07, 05:44 PM	Which leads to one teeny tiny problem in the grand scheme of things. The BoV is trying to eliminate death, plague and basically all mortal ailments correct? What about the small problem of overpopulation? I mean you have all humanoids suddenly becoming immortal and immune to all forms of damage/death/destruction, how does one keep the world from becoming a huge mass of humanoids caught in an eternity of existence. Not even taking into account the mixed blessing that immortality actually is.They also want the power of the gods. If they ever reached the point where they defeat death, measly things like land and food would become irrelivant.The reason the Blood of Vol is evil is because they don't do any of that for others.Do you have a reference for that handy? While individual members may seek individual immortality, the religion as a whole wants it for everyone, last I saw.
ArcTan 07-27-07, 04:10 PM	"We worship life, not death." IMO, way too many people metagame the BoV. Yes, Erandis is evil and uses the religion to her own ends. But the religion itself is not evil. It does not promote evil actions, and is likely the single most humanitarian group in the entire setting. And yet the religion is Lawful Evil. Note that Cardinal Krozen is *also* Evil and *also* uses the religion to his own ends, but the Church of the Silver Flame itself is Lawful Good. FWIW, I think people make too big a deal about the fact that no one knows who Erandis d'Vol is and therefore the lower echelons are innocent of everything the Emerald Claw does. The average member probably has heard of the Emerald Claw and is probably taught to approve of the Claw's actions, because the Claw is fighting the good fight to increase the power and influence of the Blood of Vol and bring us that much closer to defeating death forever. It's like the attitude of students in an extremist Afghani madrasa toward the Taliban militia or Al-Qaeda. Nearly *every* high-level organization in the Blood of Vol is committing atrocities -- the Emerald Claw of the mundane variety, the Cult of Life of the supernatural variety -- and you claim that the lower levels of the Blood of Vol have no idea about this, and that what they are taught to believe has *no resemblance* to what the upper echelons believe? Despite the Blood of Vol having a rigid, doctrinaire hierarchy (in contrast to the Dark Six or the Cults of the Dragon Below)? They worship the power that is in life, seek to end human(oid) misery, suffering, illness, and death. They don't want to kill anybody, they don't want to hurt anybody, they want to help everyone live up to their own potential. Au contraire, they want to kill and hurt anybody who stands in the way of this most noble goal of ending death. Faiths of Eberron makes it pretty clear that if you don't have the strength to give your all to the great struggle against death, you are beneath contempt, and only to be regarded as a tool. I've yet to see any evidence that the Blood of Vol's hatred of suffering and death in the abstract corresponds to good old everyday compassion. Quite the opposite -- everything in FoE's entry about the Blood of Vol indicates that the thing the BoV values most is "strength", and that life in the religion -- and the religion's definition of virtue -- consists of increasing and exercising one's strength of spirit in order to prove oneself to one's superiors. The emphasis of the Blood of Vol is on self, on constantly increasing the power of the self in order to add your self to some collective over-self with the power to defy the laws of nature that limit the self. It's got Nietzsche and Nazis oozing out the wazoo, with their own little authoritarian death-cult twist on it, and pardon me for finding that unpalatable. I actually find the Blood of Vol to be the most noble and self sacrificing of all the religions. Honestly, I think the only real reason its listed as Evil is because of what Erandis has twisted it into. But the Blood of Vol as it currently exists *is* what Erandis has twisted it into. She wrote down the doctrines. She founded the religion. She set up the hierarchy. Everything in it more or less operates the way she intended it to.
ArcTan 07-27-07, 04:14 PM	They also want the power of the gods. If they ever reached the point where they defeat death, measly things like land and food would become irrelivant.Do you have a reference for that handy? While individual members may seek individual immortality, the religion as a whole wants it for everyone, last I saw. It's not clear that they really do want it for everyone. They want the *opportunity* for it for everyone. The actual mechanics of how "defeating death" would work are very vague (as is usually the case with cults like this), but the emphasis FoE puts on it is "strength", the "divinity within". The BoV believes that eventually everyone who is *strong enough* can defeat death, and the only way to be strong enough is to become part of the collective that is the Blood of Vol and add your strength to the many, and to constantly cultivate your own strength of spirit and aim it toward this grand task. Those who are too weak to defeat death will die. Those who are strong enough will overcome. That's what we keep on hearing. Nothing about the flavor of the BoV indicates that they care all that much about *giving* the secret to stop death to others. "Giving" is, in fact, not much a part of the BoV ethos -- everything we hear is about "earning" or "taking". After all, the whole ethos is based on the idea that the gods -- or whatever transcendent force made the world -- intended for us to die, and we have to wrest eternal life from them by force. Remember that the part of the BoV that has come closest to actually achieving its goals is the Cult of Life, which has decided the secret to eternal life comes from siphoning the souls of the unworthy.
Darakhoranon 07-27-07, 04:35 PM	Exactly. The BoV was meant to APPEAR to be a self-sacrificing, good religion. But in truth it is NOT. Erandis created the BoV for her own (completely selfish) reasons - revenge being the most important one. Sure, some (maybe even most) of the low-level followers actually believe in the doctrines of defeating death "for the greater good", but the truth is that the BoV IS evil. It may be metagaming, but since we know about the true power behind the BoV, the fact that there are "good apples" doesn´t make the religion good - no more than the "bad apples" change the SF into an evil faith. "Bite me!" "Metaphorical or jugular?" Good one, Wauthan!
Edymnion 07-27-07, 06:45 PM	It's not clear that they really do want it for everyone. They want the *opportunity* for it for everyone. The actual mechanics of how "defeating death" would work are very vague (as is usually the case with cults like this), but the emphasis FoE puts on it is "strength", the "divinity within". The BoV believes that eventually everyone who is *strong enough* can defeat death, and the only way to be strong enough is to become part of the collective that is the Blood of Vol and add your strength to the many, and to constantly cultivate your own strength of spirit and aim it toward this grand task. Those who are too weak to defeat death will die. Those who are strong enough will overcome. That's what we keep on hearing.Yeah, but honestly, how many religions say "We want everybody to come to our afterlife paradise. You don't have to be one of us, everybody can come that wants to"? The Silver Flame doesn't necissarily want to help everyone, they want to destroy all evil and dethrone the gods so that the Flame can be supreme, which rather hints that in the end its a "you're with us, or you're against us". I don't see the public fact of the BoV as being any more selfish or evil than any other "good" religion.
Alex_ 07-27-07, 07:21 PM	Yeah, but honestly, how many religions say "We want everybody to come to our afterlife paradise. You don't have to be one of us, everybody can come that wants to"? None, not even the BoV. They don't want everyone to come, and not everyone who wants to come can. The Silver Flame doesn't necissarily want to help everyone, they want to destroy all evil and dethrone the gods so that the Flame can be supreme, which rather hints that in the end its a "you're with us, or you're against us". The Silver Flame doesn't want to dethrone the Gods, except the Evil ones. The BoV is the only faith that's generally anti-Deity. The Silver Flame not only wants to destroy Evil, they also wish to promote Good. They don't have a "you're with us or against us" attitude. The tennets of the faith say to work against Evil at all times, and suggests that turning Evil things to Good is preferable to destroying the individual. I don't see the public fact of the BoV as being any more selfish or evil than any other "good" religion. The tennets about worshipping one self above all else and seeking personal immortality at the expense of the lives of others is less Good than most other religions. There's nothing in the BoV that suggests self sacrifice, compassion, or humility as positives, whereas there are such messages in the religions of the Host, Undying Court, Silver Flame, and Path of Light.
ArcTan 07-27-07, 07:44 PM	Yeah, but honestly, how many religions say "We want everybody to come to our afterlife paradise. You don't have to be one of us, everybody can come that wants to"? None. The Sovereign Host doesn't have an afterlife paradise. Neither, really, does the Silver Flame. The Dark Six have one but it's exclusive to those who win favor from the Dark Six by appeasing them (which *does* overlap with Blood of Vol teachings, if you twist it a little, which is why there's a BoV cult of the Keeper -- sort of like the difference between Objectivism and LaVeyan Satanism). Some of the Cults of the Dragon Below believe they can be rewarded for their service to their dark masters with immortality. Generally, afterlife paradises in Eberron tend to be associated with Evil religions, and tend to be exclusive. The Blood of Vol is no exception. Eberron religions of the Good variety tend to place their emphasis very strongly on this world. (People make way too much of the Silver Flame's doctrine of "joining with the Flame" -- we receive no indication that this is a very important part of Silver Flame teaching. It's not really a paradise, since it means losing your individuality and becoming part of a force that stays on Earth to fight evil.) The Silver Flame doesn't necissarily want to help everyone, they want to destroy all evil and dethrone the gods so that the Flame can be supreme, which rather hints that in the end its a "you're with us, or you're against us". I have never seen anywhere that the Silver Flame seeks to dethrone the gods, or, in fact, do anything to the gods at all. They want to help everyone who can be helped, and destroy everyone who's so corrupt they can't be helped and are incapable of doing anything but harming others. (An unfair way to describe Good Lycanthropes, but a perfectly fair way to describe Daelkyr and their Aberrations, Rakshasa and the Overlords, all and sundry Mabarian Fiends, etc.) It's a corruptible mission, but one that is, at heart, a good one. Just like someone can develop a twisted enough understanding of the Blood of Vol to actually feel empathy and compassion and be a Paladin of the Blood of Vol, but only by distorting and forgetting what their faith is actually about. I don't see the public fact of the BoV as being any more selfish or evil than any other "good" religion. *shrug* The official books disagree.
TheGrandAdmiral 07-27-07, 08:14 PM	Our wars are really flammable
Edymnion 07-27-07, 09:54 PM	I have never seen anywhere that the Silver Flame seeks to dethrone the gods, or, in fact, do anything to the gods at all.Faiths of Eberron. Silver Flame's expressed goal, accourding to FoE, is to purge all evil and corruption from the world, and transform it into a paradise. It also sees the Sovereign Host as part of the corrupt world as it is. It acknowledges the gods, but sees them as having no place in a perfect, incorruptable world. When everything is said and done, the Silver Flame is supposed to rule everything, with the existing gods stepping down to make room. If you go by FoE that is.
Alex_ 07-27-07, 11:21 PM	Faiths of Eberron. Silver Flame's expressed goal, accourding to FoE, is to purge all evil and corruption from the world, and transform it into a paradise. It also sees the Sovereign Host as part of the corrupt world as it is. It acknowledges the gods, but sees them as having no place in a perfect, incorruptable world. When everything is said and done, the Silver Flame is supposed to rule everything, with the existing gods stepping down to make room. If you go by FoE that is. But they don't seek the destruction of Gods. They respect their power and see them as necessary and believed them to have been fighting against Evil for even longer than the silver Flame. However, they acknowledge that with time, their use in this capacity will dissapear, as they themselves become the last of the corrupt things in the world. They won't be "dethroned", but rather, would "fade". I'd imagine largely because there would be no more real need for them and their existence as impure entities would be the only thing left that needs to leave for the world to become pure. I'm sure that in an ideal world of the Silver Flame, there's no place for the actual religion or any of its institutions either, let alone mortal followers and that they would go before the deities. And again, the Silver Flame wants to fill the world with Good to the point where ultimately, non-Good doesn't exist. This may not be what people want, and it's understandable that someone would oppose it, but that doesn't make the overall goal of the religion any less Good.
JulesCARV 07-28-07, 01:16 AM	I think of a lot of what Fred Clarke says in his post, The Rise of the Anti-Huck (http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2005/12/lb_the_rise_of_.html), as being applicable to the Blood of Vol. Then again, the Blood of Vol is fictional, and we all have different takes on it and how it works and doesn't work in our own games. *shrugs* And... just because I'm bitter: "Nobody cares about our camps."
ArcTan 07-28-07, 02:07 AM	Faiths of Eberron. Silver Flame's expressed goal, accourding to FoE, is to purge all evil and corruption from the world, and transform it into a paradise. It also sees the Sovereign Host as part of the corrupt world as it is. It acknowledges the gods, but sees them as having no place in a perfect, incorruptable world. When everything is said and done, the Silver Flame is supposed to rule everything, with the existing gods stepping down to make room. If you go by FoE that is. Ah, okay, I see the reference. How is that the same as "destroying the gods"? That's claiming that after everything is good enough to satisfy the purpose for which the world was created, the gods -- and the other planes -- will fade because they are no longer needed, as part of their natural life cycle. It nowhere says that the Purified seek to *attack* the gods or *try* to kill them. And, after all, this is a bit pie-in-the-sky, just like the doctrine about joining the Flame after death itself. The proper response to people who worship the gods is not to convince them that the gods are false and evil and to turn their back on them (which is what the BoV say) but that the gods will soon no longer be necessary if one turns one's mind to higher thoughts of virtue for its own sake. Yeah, the BoV and CotSF are *mirrors* of each other -- they're the most aggressively expansionistic, most Lawful faiths in Eberron -- but they're still mirrors, not twins. Attitudes that in the CotSF are marked with a kind of respect and intention to help and save and redeem (like the attitude toward the Sovereign Host) are, in the BoV, marked with contempt and an intention to overthrow and supplant and destroy. A CotSF worshipper would say that a worshipper of the gods has her heart in the right place but merely misunderstands a few things. A BoV worshipper would say that a worshipper of the gods has her heart in the *wrong* place, and must cleanse herself of her delusions soon or be fodder for those who are strong enough to break free of the slavemasters.
ArcTan 07-28-07, 02:27 AM	I think of a lot of what Fred Clarke says in his post, The Rise of the Anti-Huck (http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2005/12/lb_the_rise_of_.html), as being applicable to the Blood of Vol. Then again, the Blood of Vol is fictional, and we all have different takes on it and how it works and doesn't work in our own games. *shrugs* Yeah, pretty much. Look, speaking from an out-of-game, why-would-I-put-this-in-or-take-this-out perspective: I understand the impulse to be as relativist as possible and have *all* the religions have good and bad points and basically leave you unable to judge anything as anything other than Neutral in the end. I get it. There's so much black-and-white in this genre that any non-black-and-white feels refreshing. But, you know? Endless seas of the *same shade of gray* are just as boring as pure black and pure white. The CotSF is *more interesting* if it really is a good organization with good aims and good desires that happens to have bad people in it. That tension and conflict creates drama. Just like the BoV is *more interesting* if it really is a just plain bad organization -- *not* a good organization with a super-secret Bad Guy pulling the strings, which is a facile and unrealistic cliche to fall back on, but a *bad organization*, as most organizations founded by bad people tend to be -- that happens to have good people in it. Indeed, it's refreshing. It's something D&D has never really, honestly attempted (in my view) but something D&D's system and D&D's fantasy background *demand* -- a realistic, honest view of a society that is Evil and based on Evil ideas and that does Evil things but is nonetheless human, with both Good and Evil people who live in it. D&D can't seem to do an Evil religion without making the Evil psychotic, self-destructive and incredibly insane. In my view that's crap. In real life Evil doesn't always tear its hair out and run screaming through the fields. In real life Evil also rarely hides itself so cleverly that it's truly invisible and perfectly wears the mask of Good. Evil succeeds best by being itself -- being Evil -- but making Evil look appealing. We already have archetypes of the other kinds of Evil, all too common in cheap fantasy novels -- we have Evil organizations that a Good person simply couldn't exist in because of how brain-wrenchingly inhumanly Evil they are (Cults of the Dragon Below). We have Evil organizations that are chock full of Good people who do Evil things simply because Evil is incredibly secret and Evil has mind-control powers (Dreaming Dark, Inspired). There's room for something in between that -- an organization whose goals really are Evil but are nonetheless tempting and sympathetic and that you can imagine real people signing up for without a full consciousness of what they're getting into. Realize the power of the self. Defeat death. Be part of something greater. Bring change and reordering to the world. Those who are too weak to join become fuel for the revolution. And the Blood of Vol is *interesting* if it fills that in-between space. I like that a lot more than I like the idea of a religion full of simple, honest, good folk who just have *no idea* that their leader is a megalomaniac and would be shocked and appalled and immediately convert to another church if they found out. (Honestly? My conception of the BoV is that, even though Vol must remain in hiding for now, the point of the religion always was that when the time comes for her to reveal herself and unleash apocalypse on the world, every single one of the BoV followers who really understand and hew to the faith will smile, say "Of course! Our true leader finally appears!" and join in the harvest. She would be a fool to set it up any other way.
Edymnion 07-28-07, 01:35 PM	Ah, okay, I see the reference. How is that the same as "destroying the gods"?I didn't say anything about destroying the gods. Thats basically what the Blood of Vol wants to do. I said the Silver Flame wanted to destroy evil and dethrone the gods. Dethroning does not equate to destroying, it just means to remove them from power.
ArcTan 07-28-07, 02:30 PM	I didn't say anything about destroying the gods. Thats basically what the Blood of Vol wants to do. I said the Silver Flame wanted to destroy evil and dethrone the gods. Dethroning does not equate to destroying, it just means to remove them from power. But the Flame itself won't "dethrone" the gods. The gods will abdicate, or travel to a new world, or fade away from age, or whatever (it's never stated) because once the world is perfect there'll be no need for them. It's still different. It's not something the Flame actively wants to do, any more than the Flame has the goal of destroying Dolurrh. (And a Purified would never describe their eschatological beliefs in terms of "dethroning" the gods, for one thing because that would make it much harder to get Vassal converts.)
yrogerg 07-28-07, 06:12 PM	Yeah, pretty much. Look, speaking from an out-of-game, why-would-I-put-this-in-or-take-this-out perspective: I understand the impulse to be as relativist as possible and have *all* the religions have good and bad points and basically leave you unable to judge anything as anything other than Neutral in the end. I get it. There's so much black-and-white in this genre that any non-black-and-white feels refreshing. But, you know? Endless seas of the *same shade of gray* are just as boring as pure black and pure white. The CotSF is *more interesting* if it really is a good organization with good aims and good desires that happens to have bad people in it. That tension and conflict creates drama. Just like the BoV is *more interesting* if it really is a just plain bad organization -- *not* a good organization with a super-secret Bad Guy pulling the strings, which is a facile and unrealistic cliche to fall back on, but a *bad organization*, as most organizations founded by bad people tend to be -- that happens to have good people in it. Indeed, it's refreshing. It's something D&D has never really, honestly attempted (in my view) but something D&D's system and D&D's fantasy background *demand* -- a realistic, honest view of a society that is Evil and based on Evil ideas and that does Evil things but is nonetheless human, with both Good and Evil people who live in it. D&D can't seem to do an Evil religion without making the Evil psychotic, self-destructive and incredibly insane. In my view that's crap. In real life Evil doesn't always tear its hair out and run screaming through the fields. In real life Evil also rarely hides itself so cleverly that it's truly invisible and perfectly wears the mask of Good. Evil succeeds best by being itself -- being Evil -- but making Evil look appealing. We already have archetypes of the other kinds of Evil, all too common in cheap fantasy novels -- we have Evil organizations that a Good person simply couldn't exist in because of how brain-wrenchingly inhumanly Evil they are (Cults of the Dragon Below). We have Evil organizations that are chock full of Good people who do Evil things simply because Evil is incredibly secret and Evil has mind-control powers (Dreaming Dark, Inspired). There's room for something in between that -- an organization whose goals really are Evil but are nonetheless tempting and sympathetic and that you can imagine real people signing up for without a full consciousness of what they're getting into. Realize the power of the self. Defeat death. Be part of something greater. Bring change and reordering to the world. Those who are too weak to join become fuel for the revolution. And the Blood of Vol is *interesting* if it fills that in-between space. I like that a lot more than I like the idea of a religion full of simple, honest, good folk who just have *no idea* that their leader is a megalomaniac and would be shocked and appalled and immediately convert to another church if they found out. (Honestly? My conception of the BoV is that, even though Vol must remain in hiding for now, the point of the religion always was that when the time comes for her to reveal herself and unleash apocalypse on the world, every single one of the BoV followers who really understand and hew to the faith will smile, say "Of course! Our true leader finally appears!" and join in the harvest. She would be a fool to set it up any other way. That's more than five words.
ArcTan 07-28-07, 08:02 PM	That's more than five words. I had my five words. That was just *clarification* of those five words.
Edymnion 07-28-07, 10:05 PM	But the Flame itself won't "dethrone" the gods.I think we're just quibbling semantics now. Call it whatever you want. The goal of the Silver Flame includes a world where the current gods hold no power and no sway. I say dethrone, because it sums it up in a concise manner. If you don't like the active connotation that it has, thats fine. But the bottom line is that the Silver Flame believes that it will dominate, that all other religions will basically be obliterated, etc. Which, getting back to my point, isn't really any differant from the BoV wanting it's members to be the ones that gain immortality and not everyone in general. The Silver Flame basically says that in the end, only the Flame will still be there, which is just another way of saying "Only believers in the flame will get to enjoy the paradise we want to create."
ArcTan 07-28-07, 10:08 PM	I think we're just quibbling semantics now. The quibble is that you're saying the Blood of Vol and Silver Flame are morally equivalent because they both predict utopian futures wherein the other religions no longer exist or have become irrelevant, and I'm saying there's still a world of difference between wanting to *cast down* and *destroy* other religions and simply believing that in time they will fade away of their own accord. The Silver Flame pictures a slow shift into perfection over time. The Blood of Vol pictures a bloody apocalypse. Their plans for the future couldn't be more different.
Edymnion 07-29-07, 01:28 PM	And my point is that you can't really justify calling the BoV evil just because of the way they want to bring about their paradise, which does not actually involve hurting or injuring mortals. Yeah, the BoV wants to tear down the cruel, uncaring gods and elevate mortals to a state of divine perfection. But that does not include killing or destroying the followers of those other religions. Almost all religions, fantasy and real life, make claims of a paradise, often times following a bloody period where the righteous destroy evil. The only real differance between the Silver Flame and the public face of the BoV is that the BoV includes the gods on their evil list.
Alex_ 07-29-07, 06:49 PM	I think we're just quibbling semantics now. Call it whatever you want. The goal of the Silver Flame includes a world where the current gods hold no power and no sway. I say dethrone, because it sums it up in a concise manner. If you don't like the active connotation that it has, thats fine. But the bottom line is that the Silver Flame believes that it will dominate, that all other religions will basically be obliterated, etc. It is semantics, but hardly a quibble, as the terminology and implications are rather important. "Dethrone" does imply a forceful removal from power against one's desire. It's stated in the Silver Flame description that the deities of the Host are already fighting on behalf of the Silver Flame and know of the war between Good and Evil. They started it. They are fighting with full knowledge that once , they themselves must also leave in order to complete the transformation of the world into nothing but Goodness. You're using "dethrone" because you Know what it connotes. It's an intentional warping of what's really happening to deliver a false impression. Which, getting back to my point, isn't really any differant from the BoV wanting it's members to be the ones that gain immortality and not everyone in general. The Silver Flame basically says that in the end, only the Flame will still be there, which is just another way of saying "Only believers in the flame will get to enjoy the paradise we want to create." The teachings of the Flame says that when all in the world is Good, only the Flame will endure. There won't be an Eberron, there won't be a Khyber, there won't be a Syberis, there won't be a Dolurrh, there won't be a Xoriat, there won't be Gods, Humans, Elves, Gnomes, etc. There won't even be followers of the Silver Flame. There will only be the Silver Flame which will simply exist. It says nothing of only believers being there to enjoy it. They'll be gone too, probably before the Gods. And my point is that you can't really justify calling the BoV evil just because of the way they want to bring about their paradise, which does not actually involve hurting or injuring mortals. Yeah, the BoV wants to tear down the cruel, uncaring gods and elevate mortals to a state of divine perfection. But that does not include killing or destroying the followers of those other religions. But see, the BoV actually does want to destroy the Gods against their will. They're also willing to use anyone to accomplish their other goals up to and including killing them as perfectly illustrated by the Cult of Life sect, and the faith's general relationship with the Cults of the Dragon Below. Also, they don't want to get rid of the deities to save others. They believe that anyone stupid enough to worship the Host or Six deserves what they get. They are, however, worried about how the Gods treat them personally. They don't even work with other members for their sake. They work with others for their personal merit. They aren't offering help for the betterment of others, they're soliciting help for the benefit of themselves. Undead who are looking for a solution are the closest they get to being sefless, and these individuals are generally viewed with pity and accepted largely because they work on behalf of the faith. But a great many Undead aren't working on behalf of the faith, and are instead in league with Vol, using their followers for their own personal advancement. Almost all religions, fantasy and real life, make claims of a paradise, often times following a bloody period where the righteous destroy evil. The only real differance between the Silver Flame and the public face of the BoV is that the BoV includes the gods on their evil list. There is a difference. In the public face, the Silver Flame promotes destruction of stuff like Demons, Lycantrhopes, and Undead (generally seen as bad) and encourages people to be charitable compassionate and giving. The Blood of Vol promotes personal immortality and revocation of the Gods. The Silver Flame's idea of paradise is one in which only the Silver Flame exists (not even Purified will exist), while the Blood of Vol's paradise is one in which they themselves live forever. The Silver Flame makes personal sacrifices and tries to uphold the values of Good in their efforts, while maintaining respect for Gods and their followers. The Blood of Vol doesn't sacrifice itself for anyone, and worse yet, is more willing to sacrifice innocents for itself, and has no respect for any of the Gods or the people who worship them. The divine powers of the Silver Flame are drawn from cosmic forces that are fundamentally Good. The divine powers of the Blood of Vol are drawn from cosmic forces that are fundamentally Evil. That right there is the main reason why the ECS states the BoV is LE while the Silver Flame is LG (public perception plays no part in this case). Both can be dangerous given specific circumstances, but they are not just the same thing, and the general population can tell the difference. That's why many followers of the BoV practice their faith in secret compared to Purified, and part of the reason why Karrnath is generally considered creepy even compared to Thrane. That's why the Silver Flame came to rule a state by popular decreee while the best the BoV achieved was being mandated as the state religion, and still manage to be in the minority before it's status was revoked. The people of Khorvaire can tell the difference.
ArcTan 07-29-07, 08:55 PM	And my point is that you can't really justify calling the BoV evil just because of the way they want to bring about their paradise, which does not actually involve hurting or injuring mortals. ...Sucking out people's souls doesn't hurt them? Yes, I know that the Cult of Life is all "higher-ups" (although it is a distinct organization and group of people from the Emerald Claw). That's not really an excuse. You can't keep on saying that the religion is okay because only higher-ups do bad things and lower-downs don't (as though the lower-downs aren't financing everything the higher-ups do and as though they didn't all aspire to become higher-ups). Nearly every actual goal the religion has is Evil -- from the conquest carried out by the Emerald Claw to the human sacrifices carried out by those who worship the Keeper to the necromantic experiments done on unwilling subjects by the Cult of Life. Yeah, the BoV wants to tear down the cruel, uncaring gods and elevate mortals to a state of divine perfection. But that does not include killing or destroying the followers of those other religions. Says who? It was the Blood of Vol who was behind sacking and burning all the Silver Flame churches in Karrnath, once the war started. It's the Blood of Vol that kidnaps people for experiments (yeah, yeah, higher-ups, bah). It's the Blood of Vol that venerates the learning of all necromantic magic as the highest spiritual pursuit. And about the Emerald Claw: Sure, most Seekers aren't *in* the Emerald Claw, but do you really think the average Seeker doesn't identify with them? Do you think it would be *possible* for the Claw to *exist* if they didn't have a support network among the ordinary worshippers? They're the ordinary Blood of Vol's heroes, the great patriots who are sacrificing everything while we quietly pray for them and support them at home (like I said, it's like the relationship between the actual Taliban and the madrasahs and radical Muslim communities that support them). Almost all religions, fantasy and real life, make claims of a paradise, often times following a bloody period where the righteous destroy evil. The only real differance between the Silver Flame and the public face of the BoV is that the BoV includes the gods on their evil list. The Silver Flame has no apocalyptic bloody period where the righteous destroy evil -- for them that period is *right now*, and for them it's pretty clear that the people they're destroying are people who are out there actually doing horrific things, and that ordinary people do not fall within that aegis. The Blood of Vol's apocalypse is in the future, and pretty much does involve destroying anyone or anything that stands in their way, whatever gods it professes to worship, whatever reasons it gives for not helping.
Warforged Goblin 07-30-07, 07:03 AM	Yes, I know that the Cult of Life is all "higher-ups" (although it is a distinct organization and group of people from the Emerald Claw). That's not really an excuse. You can't keep on saying that the religion is okay because only higher-ups do bad things and lower-downs don't (as though the lower-downs aren't financing everything the higher-ups do and as though they didn't all aspire to become higher-ups). Uh, isn't that what the Silver Flame is doing?
Alex_ 07-30-07, 11:50 AM	Uh, isn't that what the Silver Flame is doing? There are some, repeat, some corrupt individuals in the higher orders of the Silver Flame, but not any more than you'll find in other faiths, and certainly nothing like the Blood of Vol, which is ultimately the world's largest scam cult. The reason that any kind of corruption is more obvious and serious in the Silver Flame is because it's the faith most openly dedicated to upholding the ideals of Good. It is still fundamentally a Lawful Good belief system though, and Neutral/Evil individuals are rarer in it than in the Host/Six or Blood of Vol. And one would actually be rather hard pressed to find anything really bad to pin on the higher ups, as most of the controversial events like the Lycanthropic Purge getting out of hand or events during the Last War were not instituted by the clergy, but are rather instigated by upset and angry Puritans and non-Puritans who were more interested in immediate revenge than anything else. There's nothing like Cardinals sitting around and plotting how they're going to attack a village, capture the people and suck the life out of them in an attempt to find the secret of immortality. There aren't Clerics believing that mastery of Necromancy (which is always described as involving vile and fundamentally Evil processes) in the hopes they will have individuals devoted to helping them for all eternity.
ArcTan 07-30-07, 05:09 PM	Uh, isn't that what the Silver Flame is doing? Cardinal Krozen does not constitute all of the higher-ups in the Church of the Silver Flame. He constitutes one of them. And even though he himself is Evil, to maintain his position in the Church -- and to maintain his powers as a Cleric -- he must convince both others and himself that his Lawful Evil activities are ultimately in service of the Lawful Good aims of the Silver Flame. By contrast, the Blood of Vol is unabashedly Lawful Evil, and *all* the higher-ups are specifically engaged in Evil activities. *Not* because their mission has been corrupted, but because *that is their mission*. (Or did you think that it would be possible to amass the power to defy death without kidnapping a few innocent people and sucking out their souls to create horrible necromantic magic? Or creating a large-scale heavily-funded terrorist network or two to destabilize secular governments across the world?)
Esgay 07-30-07, 05:53 PM	"emerald claw are PC fodder"
androkguz 07-31-07, 12:08 AM	That's more than five words. :rofl: "Too many long answers here"
Edymnion 08-02-07, 10:14 PM	Yes, I know that the Cult of Life is all "higher-ups" (although it is a distinct organization and group of people from the Emerald Claw). That's not really an excuse. You can't keep on saying that the religion is okay because only higher-ups do bad things and lower-downs don't (as though the lower-downs aren't financing everything the higher-ups do and as though they didn't all aspire to become higher-ups). Nearly every actual goal the religion has is Evil -- from the conquest carried out by the Emerald Claw to the human sacrifices carried out by those who worship the Keeper to the necromantic experiments done on unwilling subjects by the Cult of Life.Yes, I can, because I've been sure to keep a distinction between the public face of the religion, and the workings of the inner core. The faith itself is millenia older than Erandis d'Vol, and she is the one that twisted and corrupted it's inner core to be evil. Are the main goals of the current BoV evil? Of course, because they are being directed and manipulated by an evil person for evil ends. But the religion itself is not evil. The public face is the same as its always been, and at most is Neutral. Only evil that comes into it is pretty much the direct result of Erandis's influence and warping of the religion. The Blood of Vol as a millenia's old religion that worships the power of life incarnate is not evil. The secret organization headed by Erandis d'Vol is evil, and it uses the BoV as a shield to deflect attention away from it.
ArcTan 08-03-07, 03:27 AM	Yes, I can, because I've been sure to keep a distinction between the public face of the religion, and the workings of the inner core. The faith itself is millenia older than Erandis d'Vol, and she is the one that twisted and corrupted it's inner core to be evil. I'm not so sure about that. Those ancient Qalbarin, what little we know of them, don't seem like friendly folk. Are the main goals of the current BoV evil? Of course, because they are being directed and manipulated by an evil person for evil ends. But the religion itself is not evil. I don't think you can have evil goals and not actually be evil yourself. At best, you're only pretending not to be evil. Yes, that includes all the people on the outer regions of the Blood of Vol. It doesn't matter whether they know the *whole* story about the Blood of Vol -- they're still volunteering to further the general "main goals" of the Blood of Vol, which involve oppression, violence and the selfish quest for immortality for the strong at the expense of the weak. The public face is the same as its always been, and at most is Neutral. If the "public face" of the Blood of Vol is what we read about in Faiths of Eberron (which is supposed to represent the religion as seen by an at-least-trying-to-be-neutral scholar) then I don't see it as Neutral at all. It's pretty obviously Evil. We get page after page after page of "the weak are tools" and "you must prove your strength to be worthy of us" and "anything and everything can be sacrificed in search of the ultimate prize". In what way is that Neutral? Only evil that comes into it is pretty much the direct result of Erandis's influence and warping of the religion. The source of the evil is not the point. The fact that evil is present and pervasive in the cult, from the very highest levels to the very lowest -- from Erandis' inner circle to the ordinary Karrnathi who says "Yes! I will give my all to cheat death!" when he joins his local Seeker church -- is. The Blood of Vol as a millenia's old religion that worships the power of life incarnate is not evil. Whether or not the ancient Qalbarin faith was evil, it doesn't matter -- it no longer exists. The modern faith was founded by Erandis d'Vol, and is evil inside and out -- because every part of it is based on Erandis' own beliefs, which are evil. The only way Erandis can even have an "inner circle" capable of doing anything is by having an evil church that recruits and trains evil people who eventually become steeped enough in her evil beliefs to be willing to join her. I mean, what do you think happens? Everyone is taught joy and compassion and peace, and then when you become enlightened and pacifistic and nice enough, you get to learn the *real secret* of being a brutal murderer, and automatically and peacefully convert? Why would anyone be stupid enough to create such a system and think it had a chance in hell of working? The secret organization headed by Erandis d'Vol is evil, and it uses the BoV as a shield to deflect attention away from it. Not really. The BoV is also a funnel for operatives and higher-ups for things like the Cult of Life and Emerald Claw. How could it possibly function as such if the "public" teachings of the BoV were at odds with its private teachings? It couldn't. How can you handpick the best and brightest from the ordinary religious institutions of the Blood of Vol to do your horrific dirty work if the ordinary religious institutions really are prim, proper and harmless? You can't. The higher-ups come from the lower-downs. In order for that to work, the watered-down teachings the lower-downs get have to be *the same teachings* as the higher-ups. You can't afford the risk that all your best students will slap you in the face and yell "That's not what I was taught!" when you reveal to them what your faith's really about. A conspiracy like what you're talking about -- a genuinely compassionate, helpful, Good faith that covers a seamy Evil organization like a mask -- is not stable. A leak between the two levels might spark a revolution. You would live in constant fear of your goodly commoner worshippers discovering the "real truth" and overthrowing you. So *why bother*? When it's so easy to create a faith that *is* Evil, on top and below, and get everyone buying into the central myth of Evil -- the power of the selfish will, the "Divinity Within", to get what you want by exploiting a system that rewards strength and punishes weakness -- and then automatically have a system that systematically converts ordinary folk into devoted, callous Seekers of the Blood, steadily promoting ordinary worshippers into ever-nastier, ever-crueller levels of depravity? It's not like it hasn't been done in real life.
DreamChaser 08-04-07, 08:53 PM	Blood of Vol is humanitarian AND evil. (and too many people metagame it) Lawful evil is not depraved and insane. Many lawful evil villains of D&D past and present have been misguided despots who truly seek happiness and peace for all they hold dear. Where the evil part comes in, is the methods they use to secure that peace and happiness. King Kaius is LE because he really does care about his people and his nation and wants nothing more than to secure peace and happiness for the Karnath he loves so much. To accomplish this, he was willing to become a vampire, cast his grandson into prison, sanction the creation of an undead army, etc. The Blood of Vol as an organization is evil because they are willing to embrace extortion, negative energy, unwilling sacrifice, etc to achieve their good ends for their people. The Silver Flame is lawful good because the organization would NEVER endorse or support using evil to achieve good. Individuals might use evil acts to achieve the ends of the church but they must do so in secret, without gaining the approval of the orthodoxy (or the Voice / Keeper). Ultimately, a small group of people might join a group that promised only pain and death with no redemption, but this would never attract the following needed to become a major cult or religion. Even if the average person is only neutral (and not good), a neutral person has no desire to see others hurt (though they may not step in to advocate for someone who is being hurt, they will not work to cause it). The average follower of the Blood, believes the things that any follower of a religion believes: 1) The ideals of the faith are true 2) An end (Salvation / growth / betterment) through those ideals is possible 3) That end is a good thing. At its core, a crisis of faith occurs when a worshiper stops believing in one or more of these basic premises. Through this, we can see how the average Seeker can be neutral or even good even while following a faith that is at its heart evil, not because of **what it promises** its followers but because of **what it is willing to do** in order to live up to that promise. DC
ArcTan 08-05-07, 12:50 AM	Through this, we can see how the average Seeker can be neutral or even good even while following a faith that is at its heart evil, not because of **what it promises** its followers but because of **what it is willing to do** in order to live up to that promise. DC *shrug* The *average* Seeker is probably a Seeker because his parents are and the other people in the village are and he's been raised that way and he kind of goes along with it by default. That's how a lot of religious and organizational loyalties work. That's the same reason the average Purified is Purified. However, the higher up you go in the organization, the more devoted to the organization's ideals you probably have to be to have made it there. I wouldn't say the average member of the Silver Flame *clergy* is Neutral -- while there are bad apples, you probably do, in general, have to be Lawful Good or at least approaching it to end up devoting your life to the Flame. Same with the Blood of Vol. Rising up in the Blood of Vol is a slow process of renouncing what was human about you and becoming ever more willing to engage in atrocities to achieve the Great Prize of immortality and the defeat of the natural order. You get more Evil as you look higher and higher up the chain of command. And no, I *don't* see this as a sudden, conspiratorial revelation ("Surprise! We were evil all along!"). It's an organic, natural process -- the more devoted to the church you get, the more you forget the ordinary human values most of the low-level Seeker pawns still live by and the more you come to truly understand what giving everything to pursue the Divinity Within means.
The White Sorcerer 08-05-07, 04:27 AM	The crux of "Why the BoV is an evil faith" lies, I think, in this: Creating undead is still evil.
Alex_ 08-05-07, 10:52 PM	The crux of "Why the BoV is an evil faith" lies, I think, in this: Creating undead is still evil. But creating the Undead isn't what the faith is about. The fact that they're more readily willing to use/support to use Evil means to an end (when there are other alternatives) says more things about the organization as a whole. Sure Skeletons and Zombies can be useful, but you can say that about lots of stuff that's Evil. Even if they did something like turning people into Deathless, or relied on virtually immortal or extremely long lived beings like Warforged, the basic ideals and tenets of the faith (immortality by any means for anyone strong enough to get it) would still be enough to brand them Evil.
ArcTan 08-06-07, 02:08 AM	Yeah. The main thing isn't that Undead-creation is Evil itself, it's that the BoV is the type of organization that doesn't know or care why Undeath is Evil -- indeed, they think it's good. That is, they have no moral objection to a being who chooses to make himself more powerful at the expense of others and siphon off their life force to weaken them and strengthen himself. They think that's how it's supposed to work.
The White Sorcerer 08-06-07, 03:30 AM	But creating the Undead isn't what the faith is about. It is, however, a very important, even central, part of it.
Alex_ 08-06-07, 01:27 PM	It is, however, a very important, even central, part of it. Important as a means to an end. Seekers want personal divine immortality by any means. They will use and manipulate others who allow themselves to be used and manipulated. What better than having a being that lives virtually forever and devotes itself to serving your cause? Creating Undead is simply the easiest way to get access to more individuals like that. If given the opportunity, they would use Deathless, Constructs, and Outsiders as well, but these are all harder to come by. If they were easier to come by, they would have more presence than Undead. The prominence of Undead in the Blood of Vol is a consequence of their beliefs and methods, not the other way around. Any Undead that's not serving the cult means as much to them as a random Warforged on the street. Even then, the number of Necromancers and Undead in the faith is very small. Just as is the case with Karrnath, they are heavily associated with Necromancy because they use it as a means to an end, but it's by no means something they "enjoy". Ultimately, to a Seeker, an Undead is just an empty husk that will never again know the divine powers of blood. Not even their founder really wants to be an Undead any more.
Edymnion 08-07-07, 12:21 PM	Not even their founder really wants to be an Undead any more.Well, TMK their founder isn't around any more. The Blood of Vol predates Erandis d'Vol by quite some time.Yeah. The main thing isn't that Undead-creation is Evil itself, it's that the BoV is the type of organization that doesn't know or care why Undeath is Evil -- indeed, they think it's good.No they don't. Its anthema to their religion. All of it focuses on the power of living blood. The undead champions of the faith are martyrs that have sacrificed their life blood for the greater good. That is, they have no moral objection to a being who chooses to make himself more powerful at the expense of others and siphon off their life force to weaken them and strengthen himself. They think that's how it's supposed to work.Yes, they do. The Blood of Vol (the public face anyway, although the inner circle probably has the same reaction for totally differant reasons) is very much against random undead preying on the living. They'd hunt down a rogue vampire and steak it just like a Flamer would. It is an evil creature that is taking innocent lives. The fact that its undead isn't actually important. Remember, the BoV vampire champions don't kill (well, don't kill innocents for the purpose of feeding off them). The faithfull voluntarily donate blood for them to drink to survive, so that those vampire champions can go on defending the faith. The entire point of the BoV is that living people are holy, the power of their coursing blood is divine, and that each individual has the potential to become a god in their own right. Killing people for no reason would be blasphamy.
yrogerg 08-07-07, 11:11 PM	Well, TMK their founder isn't around any more. The Blood of Vol predates Erandis d'Vol by quite some time.No they don't. Its anthema to their religion. All of it focuses on the power of living blood. The undead champions of the faith are martyrs that have sacrificed their life blood for the greater good. Yes, they do. The Blood of Vol (the public face anyway, although the inner circle probably has the same reaction for totally differant reasons) is very much against random undead preying on the living. They'd hunt down a rogue vampire and steak it just like a Flamer would. It is an evil creature that is taking innocent lives. The fact that its undead isn't actually important. Remember, the BoV vampire champions don't kill (well, don't kill innocents for the purpose of feeding off them). The faithfull voluntarily donate blood for them to drink to survive, so that those vampire champions can go on defending the faith. The entire point of the BoV is that living people are holy, the power of their coursing blood is divine, and that each individual has the potential to become a god in their own right. Killing people for no reason would be blasphamy. Again, what about the Cult of Life? It's not like anyone in the BoV's going out of their way to hunt down, persecute, or even really marginalize them for preying on others to empower themselves.
Alex_ 08-07-07, 11:26 PM	Well, TMK their founder isn't around any more. The Blood of Vol predates Erandis d'Vol by quite some time. But the version practiced in Khorvaire was ported over and has been largely orchestrated and crafted by Erandis d'Vol. The undead champions of the faith are martyrs that have sacrificed their life blood for the greater good. Not so much the greater good, but the good of Seekers (and you personally as a seeker). They're not trying to find immortality for people in general. Remember, the BoV vampire champions don't kill (well, don't kill innocents for the purpose of feeding off them). The faithfull voluntarily donate blood for them to drink to survive, so that those vampire champions can go on defending the faith. Not because Vampires are necessarilly non-Evil, but because this method is a lot easier than hiding on the outskirts of societies and going on blood sucking sprees in communities. They're playing the Humans too. They're part of the conspiracy with Vol. The idea that they've selflessly given up ivine immortality is the public face, while in reality, they have found a way to become immortal, and control millions of people like sheep who would willingly give their blood and life forces to sustain them. It's all about using others for personal benefit. The BoV is full of it. It's an underlying, but very important theme of the faith. The entire point of the BoV is that living people are holy, the power of their coursing blood is divine, and that each individual has the potential to become a god in their own right. Not "each" person. Only those strong enough. And the general way in which the faith goes about it is by any means convenient/necessary. Killing people for no reason would be blasphamy. Not blasphemy, just really stupid. Not even the Cults of the Dragon below kill for no reason. Killing innocent people for no personal gain does nothing to further their cause, and has unnecessary risk with no potential profit. However, for Seekers, those who aren't strong enough deserve to be manipulated if doing so contributes to the search for eternal life. Blood is divine, yes, but people who don't believe it is, place their faith in others, and be satisfied with an eternity in Dolurrh don't get much sympathy either. They're just wasting it.
ArcTan 08-07-07, 11:27 PM	Well, TMK their founder isn't around any more. The Blood of Vol predates Erandis d'Vol by quite some time.No they don't. Its anthema to their religion. All of it focuses on the power of living blood. The undead champions of the faith are martyrs that have sacrificed their life blood for the greater good. Are their Undead champions *bad people* for doing so? No. They're heroes. They have achieved a small, distorted version of what they really want, which is "true" immortality. They have been cheated out of "true" immortality because they've had to pay the price of their blood to live forever. This is the gods' fault, not theirs. What they were trying to do -- live forever -- was still noble. Yes, they do. The Blood of Vol (the public face anyway, although the inner circle probably has the same reaction for totally differant reasons) is very much against random undead preying on the living. They'd hunt down a rogue vampire and steak it just like a Flamer would. It is an evil creature that is taking innocent lives. The fact that its undead isn't actually important. Who ever said the Blood of Vol -- private or public -- gives a crap about "innocent lives"? The Blood of Vol cares about maintaining order and law, sure. They have no special mission to protect the "innocent". The very concept of "guilt" and "innocence" isn't mentioned anywhere in any description of the BoV. Theirs is not a religion that thinks much about the idea of sin -- or of justice. They're the ones who think that the reason death is wrong is that we don't like it and the reason we should be immortal is that we want to be, remember? Remember, the BoV vampire champions don't kill (well, don't kill innocents for the purpose of feeding off them). The faithfull voluntarily donate blood for them to drink to survive, so that those vampire champions can go on defending the faith. On the other hand, the Cult of Life *does* go around killing innocents to do experiments on their souls. The entire point of the BoV is that living people are holy, the power of their coursing blood is divine, and that each individual has the potential to become a god in their own right. Killing people for no reason would be blasphamy. Killing people for the ultimate purpose of furthering your own Divinity Within, however, is how the world should work. Of course the Blood of Vol doesn't approve of random mass murderers. No one but a madman would. You don't have to be a madman to be Evil. They don't approve of mass murder. They *do* approve of killing anyone and everyone who gets in their own way, questions of "guilt" and "innocence" aside (and irrelevant). They regard worshippers of the Host and the Flame as beneath all contempt because they have voluntarily betrayed their own Divinity Within. It may be a kind of doublethink, but it is precisely the divinity of those enslaved to religion -- which they have *voluntarily forsworn* in the worship of that which has no blood, the natural world or the gods or the abstraction of "justice" -- that makes them hateful, makes them targets -- to honor the Divinity Within is to destroy and punish those who deny it.
ArcTan 08-07-07, 11:30 PM	Well, TMK their founder isn't around any more. Please. The ancient Qalbarin are completely irrelevant to this conversation. The Blood of Vol, as we know it now, was founded by Erandis d'Vol, entirely on her own initiative. It's all her stuff. She made it up. It may be *based* on the beliefs of her ancestors, but all those beliefs have been channeled to the BoV through exactly one bottleneck -- Erandis d'Vol. Even if the ancient Qalbarin were really jolly good folk, which I somehow doubt, it's completely irrelevant. They are all dead, and their original teachings are all completely lost. The Blood of Vol now is no more and no less than the religion Erandis d'Vol planned it to be. Saying that the Blood of Vol wasn't founded by Erandis but by the ancient Qalbarin is like saying the Mormons weren't founded by Joseph Smith but by the ancient Nephites. It's only true if you buy into their crap, and even then it's a highly distorted version of "true", claiming identity between two almost totally disjoint institutions.
The White Sorcerer 08-09-07, 05:56 AM	Please. The ancient Qalbarin are completely irrelevant to this conversation. The Blood of Vol, as we know it now, was founded by Erandis d'Vol, entirely on her own initiative. It's all her stuff. She made it up. It may be *based* on the beliefs of her ancestors, but all those beliefs have been channeled to the BoV through exactly one bottleneck -- Erandis d'Vol. The Qabaldrin didn't found the Blood of Vol, nor did Lady Vol do it. The Blood of Vol was founded on Aerenal by House Vol. The faith was brought to Khorvaire by exiles from Aerenal.
glug 08-09-07, 01:51 PM	Man, this has gotten to be more than 5 words. How about: Clueless bandwagoning evil hippy cultists
AllWillFall2Me 08-09-07, 09:00 PM	the basic ideals and tenets of the faith (immortality by any means for anyone strong enough to get it) would still be enough to brand them Evil. Really? As I recall, "Life by any means for anyone strong enough to take it" is the core philosophy behind survival of the fittest, the guiding principle of the Neutral animal world. Now, if they took active efforts to stop other's ascension, we could call them evil. As it is, this is a LN religion with evil tendencies. And to anyone who argues that the corruption of the leaders=the corruption of the faith itself, I argue "catholic priests". Is catholicism evil? No. Does it occasionally do stupid things? Yes. Are there catholic leaders who do bad things? Yes. Oh, and: Misunderstood/Manipulated seekers of eternal life. (It's five if you choose either on the slash, not both.)
Alex_ 08-10-07, 07:47 AM	Really? As I recall, "Life by any means for anyone strong enough to take it" is the core philosophy behind survival of the fittest, the guiding principle of the Neutral animal world. D&D animals don't follow real world models of animal behavior. In D&D, animals basically eat, sleep, reproduce, and fight things that threaten them, their young, pack, territory, or species. They are just as sadistic/ruel as they are benevolent/selfless, if at all, and ultimately lack comprehension or choice in the matter. Neither does their creation or existence require an overwhelming amount of or relationship with any alignment. Now, if they took active efforts to stop other's ascension, we could call them evil. As it is, this is a LN religion with evil tendencies. They do. That's what becoming an Undead is all about. The BoV encourages many people to give up their chance to become divinely immortal, so that they will spend countless years researching and possibly finding a means of attaining true immortality. They also have few qualms with manipulating others, even it if puts that person in danger, or just flat out killing others if it helps them reach their goals, and they commonly do so. Of course, the Undead don't think they're losing. In reality, they're closer up there to Vol, and looking for a way to return to flesh and gain true immortality, while in the meantime, enjoying it via necromancy and taking advantage of countless mortals willing to work with them and giving their blood and life forces to sustain them. They're actively, not passively, seeking divinity. They're doing everything they can, which includes the intentional impedance of others' progress, in pursuit of their own selfish goals and minimizing the amount they selflessly give to others (that would be intentionally weakening themselves). This occurs at all levels of the faith, both in its internal and external relationships. They take and take and don't give anything back, unless it also gives to them. They are generally LE, with the ability for moderates to go N. Good Seekers are probably working with a version of the BoV that is more removed from the true faith. And to anyone who argues that the corruption of the leaders=the corruption of the faith itself, I argue "catholic priests". Is catholicism evil? No. Does it occasionally do stupid things? Yes. Are there catholic leaders who do bad things? Yes. As discussed in another thread, the BoV clergy isn't really that corrupt. They have a pretty strict disciplinary system, in which most any violation that would results in being removed from your post also warrants death. It's also the general idea of the BoV that the strong lead and manipulate the weak towards their own personal ends. This is the general belief of the lay worshipers, and it'd be silly for them to not believe this extends up the ranks. Corruption is a betrayal of principles, or the altering of an idea. The BoV's ideals are already about manipulation and the strong overcoming and using the weak for personal advancement. When this happens, it's not corruption. It's everything is working as intended. If you've ever played the Knights of the Old Republic Game, it's in many ways similar to the general philosophy of the Dark Side or the Sith (albeit less openly violent).
AllWillFall2Me 08-10-07, 05:45 PM	D&D animals don't follow real world models of animal behavior. In D&D, animals basically eat, sleep, reproduce, and fight things that threaten them, their young, pack, territory, or species. They are just as sadistic/ruel as they are benevolent/selfless, if at all, and ultimately lack comprehension or choice in the matter. Neither does their creation or existence require an overwhelming amount of or relationship with any alignment. Doesn't that description adequately describe RL animal behavior? You do raise a point in the lack of comprehension perhaps being a factor. However, I would also point out that many other monsters seek solely their own survival, and are Neutral. I wish I could generate a few examples, but I don't have my books with me They do. That's what becoming an Undead is all about. The BoV encourages many people to give up their chance to become divinely immortal, so that they will spend countless years researching and possibly finding a means of attaining true immortality. Asking it of your followers is a separate state than actively stopping it. It the current day, many view the Aztec sacrifices as evil, but it should be remembered that, until it was used to exert power over captive tribes, many of the sacrifices were willing, and honestly believed that in giving themselves up, the sun would rise tomorrow. Can we view the priests as being evil, if they truly believe the same? They also have few qualms with manipulating others, even it if puts that person in danger, or just flat out killing others if it helps them reach their goals, and they commonly do so. True, to an extent. Remember, this is essentially a pyramid scheme. The majority of Volites wouldn't do these things. Now, would the selfish and evil current leaders of the religion do this? Yes, and they have. One need look only at Kaius/Vol and see that the leadership here is horrible even to their own tenets. Of course, the Undead don't think they're losing. In reality, they're closer up there to Vol, and looking for a way to return to flesh and gain true immortality, while in the meantime, enjoying it via necromancy and taking advantage of countless mortals willing to work with them and giving their blood and life forces to sustain them. I would argue that they do think they're losing, in the beginning. I could see a man willing becoming a "martyr" to protect the city and guide others. Now, as the current rules state that upon transformation, he becomes a selfish bloodsucker... Personally, I could see LN or G vampires of Vol. Look at a vampire's stats, and imagine what a town would be willing to give a defender of that much power. A barrel of blood every month, given by everyone in the village, a little bit at a time, would seem a fair price for an ever-vigilant and living protector of the town from the night. Also, imagine the lore he must have. They're actively, not passively, seeking divinity. They're doing everything they can, which includes the intentional impedance of others' progress, in pursuit of their own selfish goals and minimizing the amount they selflessly give to others (that would be intentionally weakening themselves). This occurs at all levels of the faith, both in its internal and external relationships. As a rebuttal point, how much do you donate a year? I'm certain you have a fair amount of money you aren't currently using, instead saving it for later, or for some purpose. Why don't you give that savings to a needier soul? The answer, because it's yours, and you have a plan for it. "Minimizing the amount you selflessly give to others"? That's pretty much SOP for most people. Except Exalteds. And wherein do you see the lower levels of the faith's "intentional impedance of other's progress"? AFAIK, they don't actively prevent others from seeking immortality, merely believe that everyone else is doing it the wrong way. They take and take and don't give anything back, unless it also gives to them. They are generally LE, with the ability for moderates to go N. Good Seekers are probably working with a version of the BoV that is more removed from the true faith. I would argue that there are a great many more moderates in the church than there are LE "Scions". Yes, the current top infrastructure is unsound, and manipulative, however, they are the TOP. as I mentioned earlier, we're dealing with a pyramid. Their evil decadence is based on the back of self-sacrifice on the bottom. (Really, who wants to donate blood so the champions can continue? Can't I keep MY blood?) As discussed in another thread, the BoV clergy isn't really that corrupt. They have a pretty strict disciplinary system, in which most any violation that would results in being removed from your post also warrants death. It's also the general idea of the BoV that the strong lead and manipulate the weak towards their own personal ends. This is the general belief of the lay worshipers, and it'd be silly for them to not believe this extends up the ranks. Corruption is a betrayal of principles, or the altering of an idea. The BoV's ideals are already about manipulation and the strong overcoming and using the weak for personal advancement. When this happens, it's not corruption. It's everything is working as intended. See, the bolded section is where I believe we disagree. Yes, the strong lead, thanks, that's life, we all follow those we believe more qualified than ourselves, and I believe that is where the problems arise. The current, heavily undead leadership of the church has a flock of unwitting sheep, whose devotion to the principle of eternal life (A promise made by many religions, just not in eberron) has allowed them to be abused within the system of faith. I see corruption within a system as being the exploitation of others through use of powers vested in you by others. The undead using the doctrine to subjugate their followers, I believe is a hidden example. Lacking books, I can't quote ,or be fully sure of this, but I'm fairly certain the BoV does not condone the obstruction of other Seekers. Infidels aren't cared about, (again, a common trait in most religions), but stopping a fellow seeker is rude at best. (much like the Bible disallows Christians from charging fellow Christians interest on loans.) Now, just because a leadership or doctrine of the church leads to evil, does not mean that the followers are. I tried using the catholics to illustrate that. But I may have a better, reverse example: I am not afraid to announce that I am a Satanist. The principle doctrine of which is "Do what thou wilt, so long as you harm no undeserving other". I am also an Eagle Scout, and regularly perform community service and other projects. Why? Because I want to. It makes me feel good. Many biologists and sociologist think that Good and altruism arose as a subtle barter exchange of aid in primitive beings. You help others in need, they might help you. At the very least, the odds of them attacking or opposing you are lower. Now, just because the system supports evil, or can be interpreted to do so, does not me that everyone, or even a majority will. Your average BoV follower, a peasant in Karrnath, will be as willing to lend a hand to his neighbor as A follower of the Host.
Alex_ 08-10-07, 07:18 PM	Doesn't that description adequately describe RL animal behavior? You do raise a point in the lack of comprehension perhaps being a factor. However, I would also point out that many other monsters seek solely their own survival, and are Neutral. I wish I could generate a few examples, but I don't have my books with me. No my description was not an entirely accurate description of animal behavior, which is much more varied and complex than anything in any D&D book. D&D alignment is not a serious and detailed analysis of the psychology of organisms or of concepts of morality. It was not made to, and does not hold up under such scrutiny. Non-animal creatures that are Neutral tend to either lack interest in devoting themselves to being selfless or entirely sefless, or make a personal goal to not lean one way or the other. Asking it of your followers is a separate state than actively stopping it. It the current day, many view the Aztec sacrifices as evil, but it should be remembered that, until it was used to exert power over captive tribes, many of the sacrifices were willing, and honestly believed that in giving themselves up, the sun would rise tomorrow. Can we view the priests as being evil, if they truly believe the same? Again, D&D does not follow the many models that exist in real world beliefs and philosophies regarding Good/Evil. In Eberron, yes, talking someone into harming/hindering themselves to help you out entirely for your own selfish desires is Evil. True, to an extent. Remember, this is essentially a pyramid scheme. The majority of Volites wouldn't do these things. Now, would the selfish and evil current leaders of the religion do this? The majority of Seekers are like this. They don't personally go as far as their higher ups because they lack the power/resolve/bravery to do so, but they do provide them general support and find the concept acceptable, if not ideal. I would argue that they do think they're losing, in the beginning. I could see a man willing becoming a "martyr" to protect the city and guide others... Personally, I could see LN or G vampires of Vol. As could I. However, that person would be perverting the actual beliefs of the faith. They would have to be ignorant or willing to turn a blind eye to many aspects of the faith. I could also see a LE cleric of the Silver Flame believing that by torturing and murdering innocents, they are preserving the institution of the church, which in turn keeps them in power. However, these are exceptions, rather than the rule, and are obviously mistaken/ignorant in regards to what their faiths are really about. Now, as the current rules state that upon transformation, he becomes a selfish bloodsucker... Not just the rules. Not just anyone is chosen to become an Undead. It takes a lot of indoctrination and the person has to show that they're very devoted to the faith and its ideals. Their initiations are secret, and sometimes they don't even know they're being selected groomed for the opportunity. Evil individuals simply find it easier to move up the ranks than Neutral/Good people. As a rebuttal point, how much do you donate a year? I'm certain you have a fair amount of money you aren't currently using, instead saving it for later, or for some purpose. Why don't you give that savings to a needier soul? The answer, because it's yours, and you have a plan for it. "Minimizing the amount you selflessly give to others"? That's pretty much SOP for most people. D&D alignment is not a direct model of real world morality and values (whichever one people use). However, because this is a personal question, and not directed at any other group in particular (helping to avoid offending others and inflaming their passions)... I don't donate much money (amongst other things). I don't consider myself Good by Eberron standards either. Except Exalteds. And wherein do you see the lower levels of the faith's "intentional impedance of other's progress"? AFAIK, they don't actively prevent others from seeking immortality, merely believe that everyone else is doing it the wrong way. The lower levels encourage the acts of the higher levels. They make them possible, and many ultimately seek to reach those higher levels. And again, they have Undead because they generally believe the Undead are working for them. Not working for others, but working for them. They have no interest in giving immortality to anyone really but themselves and those who matter personally to them, and each seeker is generally more concerned with his/her personal immortality than that of others or mortals in general. I would argue that there are a great many more moderates in the church than there are LE "Scions". Yes, the current top infrastructure is unsound, and manipulative, however, they are the TOP. as I mentioned earlier, we're dealing with a pyramid. Their evil decadence is based on the back of self-sacrifice on the bottom. Oh yes, there are more moderates at the lower levels. However, they are still more inclined towards the general ideals and values of the higher ups than they are opposed. Not just because the higher ups told them so, but because they agree. They don't personally manipulate, kill, and use others for personal benefit in extreme ways, but they are more open to and supportive of the idea than others, and are more likely to do it in small ways to people below them (anyone not a follower of the BoV and even weaker members of the BoV). (Really, who wants to donate blood so the champions can continue? Can't I keep MY blood?) If you're an Evil person who sees donating blood as a means to keep alive a Vampire who's working night and day on a way to make you divinely immortal. See, the bolded section is where I believe we disagree. Yes, the strong lead, thanks, that's life, we all follow those we believe more qualified than ourselves, and I believe that is where the problems arise. The current, heavily undead leadership of the church has a flock of unwitting sheep, whose devotion to the principle of eternal life (A promise made by many religions, just not in eberron) has allowed them to be abused within the system of faith. Good/Neutral organizations in Eberron follow those they believe are more qualified because they also believe those people are placing the interests of others, or the system, above their own personal advancement and success. Those who are believed to be in it entirely for their own personal benefit are generally frowned upon. The Sovereign Host (or even the Dark Six) and Silver Flame don't generally ask anything more of their followers than they ask of themselves. Likewise, the faithful don't necessarily believe the clergy and gods have an obligation to them, as much they have an obligation to others. They work in general for ideals greater than themselves. Vassals of the Host/Six don't generally believe they're getting a paradise. They mostly believe they're doing what they're supposed to be doing and then going to Dolurrh. Followers of the Silver Flame generally believe that they will fade from the world and only Good in the form of the Flame will exist. In the BoV, the "unwitting sheep" think they're getting over on their leadership and are following them, because eventually the personal payoff will be great. They've convinced people to forsake their own divinity for the sake of the Seeker. They're going to live forever, no matter what happens to everything else. In the BoV, the end goal isn't much greater than personal reward. I see corruption within a system as being the exploitation of others through use of powers vested in you by others. That's because most institutions don't encourage it, and generally encourage the opposite. As such, when it happens, it's in violation to what has generally been encouraged. The undead using the doctrine to subjugate their followers, I believe is a hidden example. Lacking books, I can't quote ,or be fully sure of this, but I'm fairly certain the BoV does not condone the obstruction of other Seekers. Unless it personally suits their goals. If a Seeker sees the opportunity to get closer to divine immortality at the expense of a fellow Seeker reaching it, there are no rules about them taking advantage of the situation. Again, the further you move up in the hierarchy, the more accepted, encouraged, and extreme it becomes. Infidels aren't cared about, (again, a common trait in most religions), but stopping a fellow seeker is rude at best. Rude on the part of the person being stopped. For the person befitting from it, it's perfectly fine. They were weak enough to let themselves be used like that. Now, just because a leadership or doctrine of the church leads to evil, does not mean that the followers are. Again, the followers are not Evil just because the leadership are. The followers in general are Evil for other reasons. The BoV is not just a bunch of innocent and well meaning people being manipulated by a bunch of corrupt clergymen and Undead. It could hypothetically work that way, but that's not how it's described in published material, and not really how it was meant to be interpreted. But I may have a better, reverse example: I am not afraid to announce that I am a Satanist. The principle doctrine of which is "Do what thou wilt, so long as you harm no undeserving other". I am also an Eagle Scout, and regularly perform community service and other projects. Why? Because I want to. It makes me feel good. Okay. However, most Seekers don't help others because they receive pleasurable feelings from it. With a great many more being Evil, they are receive more pleasure from personally succeeding and to an equal/lesser extent, seeing others suffer. Many biologists and sociologist think that Good and altruism arose as a subtle barter exchange of aid in primitive beings. You help others in need, they might help you. At the very least, the odds of them attacking or opposing you are lower. Again, the alignment system in D&D is not based on real world models. Good is altruism- doing things for others with no desire for compensation. Evil is selfishness- doing things for one's on benefit at the expense of others. Neutral is the middle. Both have their "right" and "wrong" points, and both can be misunderstood, but Good is still Good and Evil is still Evil. Now, just because the system supports evil, or can be interpreted to do so, does not me that everyone, or even a majority will. It does in Eberron. Your average BoV follower, a peasant in Karrnath, will be as willing to lend a hand to his neighbor as A follower of the Host. No they won't. That's not to say a Seeker will never lend a hand to their neighbor and a Vassal always will, but statistically speaking, he won't be as likely.
Alex_ 08-10-07, 07:24 PM	Doesn't that description adequately describe RL animal behavior? You do raise a point in the lack of comprehension perhaps being a factor. However, I would also point out that many other monsters seek solely their own survival, and are Neutral. I wish I could generate a few examples, but I don't have my books with me. No my description was not an entirely accurate description of animal behavior, which is much more varied and complex than anything in any D&D book. D&D alignment is not a serious and detailed analysis of the psychology of organisms or of concepts of morality. It was not made to, and does not hold up under such scrutiny. Non-animal creatures that are Neutral tend to either lack interest in devoting themselves to being selfless or entirely sefless, or make a personal goal to not lean one way or the other. Asking it of your followers is a separate state than actively stopping it. It the current day, many view the Aztec sacrifices as evil, but it should be remembered that, until it was used to exert power over captive tribes, many of the sacrifices were willing, and honestly believed that in giving themselves up, the sun would rise tomorrow. Can we view the priests as being evil, if they truly believe the same? Again, D&D does not follow the many models that exist in real world beliefs and philosophies regarding Good/Evil. In Eberron, yes, talking someone into harming/hindering themselves to help you out entirely for your own selfish desires is Evil. True, to an extent. Remember, this is essentially a pyramid scheme. The majority of Volites wouldn't do these things. Now, would the selfish and evil current leaders of the religion do this? The majority of Seekers are like this. They don't personally go as far as their higher ups because they lack the power/resolve/bravery to do so, but they do provide them general support and find the concept acceptable, if not ideal. I would argue that they do think they're losing, in the beginning. I could see a man willing becoming a "martyr" to protect the city and guide others... Personally, I could see LN or G vampires of Vol. As could I. However, that person would be perverting the actual beliefs of the faith. They would have to be ignorant or willing to turn a blind eye to many aspects of the faith. I could also see a LE cleric of the Silver Flame believing that by torturing and murdering innocents, they are preserving the institution of the church, which in turn keeps them in power. However, these are exceptions, rather than the rule, and are obviously mistaken/ignorant in regards to what their faiths are really about. Now, as the current rules state that upon transformation, he becomes a selfish bloodsucker... Not just the rules. Not just anyone is chosen to become an Undead. It takes a lot of indoctrination and the person has to show that they're very devoted to the faith and its ideals. Their initiations are secret, and sometimes they don't even know they're being selected groomed for the opportunity. Evil individuals simply find it easier to move up the ranks than Neutral/Good people. As a rebuttal point, how much do you donate a year? I'm certain you have a fair amount of money you aren't currently using, instead saving it for later, or for some purpose. Why don't you give that savings to a needier soul? The answer, because it's yours, and you have a plan for it. "Minimizing the amount you selflessly give to others"? That's pretty much SOP for most people. D&D alignment is not a direct model of real world morality and values (whichever one people use). However, because this is a personal question, and not directed at any other group in particular (helping to avoid offending others and inflaming their passions)... I don't donate much money (amongst other things). I don't consider myself Good by Eberron standards either. Except Exalteds. And wherein do you see the lower levels of the faith's "intentional impedance of other's progress"? AFAIK, they don't actively prevent others from seeking immortality, merely believe that everyone else is doing it the wrong way. The lower levels encourage the acts of the higher levels. They make them possible, and many ultimately seek to reach those higher levels. And again, they have Undead because they generally believe the Undead are working for them. Not working for others, but working for them. They have no interest in giving immortality to anyone really but themselves and those who matter personally to them, and each seeker is generally more concerned with his/her personal immortality than that of others or mortals in general. I would argue that there are a great many more moderates in the church than there are LE "Scions". Yes, the current top infrastructure is unsound, and manipulative, however, they are the TOP. as I mentioned earlier, we're dealing with a pyramid. Their evil decadence is based on the back of self-sacrifice on the bottom. Oh yes, there are more moderates at the lower levels. However, they are still more inclined towards the general ideals and values of the higher ups than they are opposed. Not just because the higher ups told them so, but because they agree. They don't personally manipulate, kill, and use others for personal benefit in extreme ways, but they are more open to and supportive of the idea than others, and are more likely to do it in small ways to people below them (anyone not a follower of the BoV and even weaker members of the BoV). (Really, who wants to donate blood so the champions can continue? Can't I keep MY blood?) If you're an Evil person who sees donating blood as a means to keep alive a Vampire who's working night and day on a way to make you divinely immortal. See, the bolded section is where I believe we disagree. Yes, the strong lead, thanks, that's life, we all follow those we believe more qualified than ourselves, and I believe that is where the problems arise. The current, heavily undead leadership of the church has a flock of unwitting sheep, whose devotion to the principle of eternal life (A promise made by many religions, just not in eberron) has allowed them to be abused within the system of faith. Good/Neutral organizations in Eberron follow those they believe are more qualified because they also believe those people are placing the interests of others, or the system, above their own personal advancement and success. Those who are believed to be in it entirely for their own personal benefit are generally frowned upon. The Sovereign Host (or even the Dark Six) and Silver Flame don't generally ask anything more of their followers than they ask of themselves. Likewise, the faithful don't necessarily believe the clergy and gods have an obligation to them, as much they have an obligation to others. They work in general for ideals greater than themselves. Vassals of the Host/Six don't generally believe they're getting a paradise. They mostly believe they're doing what they're supposed to be doing and then going to Dolurrh. Followers of the Silver Flame generally believe that they will fade from the world and only Good in the form of the Flame will exist. In the BoV, the "unwitting sheep" think they're getting over on their leadership and are following them, because eventually the personal payoff will be great. They've convinced people to forsake their own divinity for the sake of the Seeker. They're going to live forever, no matter what happens to everything else. In the BoV, the end goal isn't much greater than personal reward. I see corruption within a system as being the exploitation of others through use of powers vested in you by others. That's because most institutions don't encourage it, and generally encourage the opposite. As such, when it happens, it's in violation to what has generally been encouraged. The undead using the doctrine to subjugate their followers, I believe is a hidden example. Lacking books, I can't quote ,or be fully sure of this, but I'm fairly certain the BoV does not condone the obstruction of other Seekers. Unless it personally suits their goals. If a Seeker sees the opportunity to get closer to divine immortality at the expense of a fellow Seeker reaching it, there are no rules about them taking advantage of the situation. Again, the further you move up in the hierarchy, the more accepted, encouraged, and extreme it becomes. Infidels aren't cared about, (again, a common trait in most religions), but stopping a fellow seeker is rude at best. Rude on the part of the person being stopped. For the person befitting from it, it's perfectly fine. They were weak enough to let themselves be used like that. Now, just because a leadership or doctrine of the church leads to evil, does not mean that the followers are. Again, the followers are not Evil just because the leadership are. The followers in general are Evil for other reasons. The BoV is not just a bunch of innocent and well meaning people being manipulated by a bunch of corrupt clergymen and Undead. It could hypothetically work that way, but that's not how it's described in published material, and not really how it was meant to be interpreted. But I may have a better, reverse example: I am not afraid to announce that I am a Satanist. The principle doctrine of which is "Do what thou wilt, so long as you harm no undeserving other". I am also an Eagle Scout, and regularly perform community service and other projects. Why? Because I want to. It makes me feel good. Okay. However, most Seekers don't help others because they receive pleasurable feelings from it. With a great many more being Evil, they are receive more pleasure from personally succeeding and to an equal/lesser extent, seeing others suffer. Many biologists and sociologist think that Good and altruism arose as a subtle barter exchange of aid in primitive beings. You help others in need, they might help you. At the very least, the odds of them attacking or opposing you are lower. Again, the alignment system in D&D is not based on real world models. Good is altruism- doing things for others with no desire for compensation. Evil is selfishness- doing things for one's on benefit at the expense of others. Neutral is the middle. Both have their "right" and "wrong" points, and both can be misunderstood, but Good is still Good and Evil is still Evil. Now, just because the system supports evil, or can be interpreted to do so, does not me that everyone, or even a majority will. It does in Eberron. Your average BoV follower, a peasant in Karrnath, will be as willing to lend a hand to his neighbor as A follower of the Host. No they won't. That's not to say a Seeker will never lend a hand to their neighbor and a Vassal always will, but statistically speaking, he won't be as likely.
ArcTan 08-10-07, 09:08 PM	Really? As I recall, "Life by any means for anyone strong enough to take it" is the core philosophy behind survival of the fittest, the guiding principle of the Neutral animal world. Now, if they took active efforts to stop other's ascension, we could call them evil. As it is, this is a LN religion with evil tendencies. Hold up, hold up, hold up, stop. We *know* what kind of religion it is. It's an LE religion. It says so in the books. In an actual campaign, you could test this easily -- cast detect law and detect evil on any BoV Cleric. We also *know* that the BoV *does* actively preach making active efforts to stop the ascension of those who are fundamentally unworthy (those who worship the Silver Flame and the Sovereign Host are fit only to rot in Dolurrh, or be used as resources for the future). The BoV *also* does not preach about leaving *each other* alone -- within the BoV itself, those who are weaker are *obligated* to donate blood to those who are stronger. Notice that the blood donation taken every year is not truly voluntary -- you have to give to stay in the Church. You have to donate what the Church teaches is your most valuable life essence, the source of divinity, part of the limited quantity of heartbeats you can never get back after you lose them -- you *have to* give that away to those who are stronger and better than you. Your goal is to someday become stronger and better than them. It's pretty much a mirror of the hierarchy of Baator. And to anyone who argues that the corruption of the leaders=the corruption of the faith itself, I argue "catholic priests". Is catholicism evil? No. Does it occasionally do stupid things? Yes. Are there catholic leaders who do bad things? Yes. ...Which is why when you ask the question "Is Catholicism Evil?" you have to look at what the Church actually teaches and what they actually say, and whether the priests who do bad things are doing so in *violation* of what they were taught or in *accordance* with what they were taught. So, for instance, yes, the Inquisition was actively Evil, and everyone who participated in it -- from the Grand Inquisitor down to the lowliest peasant who paid to support it and offered to turn people in to it -- was participating in Evil. You cannot pass some things off on the "leaders". Oh, and: Misunderstood/Manipulated seekers of eternal life. (It's five if you choose either on the slash, not both.) Wow, even the forces of magic are misunderstanding them? When they ring the resounding "EVIL! EVIL! EVIL!" alarms when you cast it at *any* Cleric of the Blood of Vol, even the Good-aligned ones?
ArcTan 08-10-07, 09:21 PM	True, to an extent. Remember, this is essentially a pyramid scheme. The majority of Volites wouldn't do these things. Now, would the selfish and evil current leaders of the religion do this? Yes, and they have. One need look only at Kaius/Vol and see that the leadership here is horrible even to their own tenets. You've got to understand that pyramid schemes don't work by "fooling" people. Every member of a pyramid scheme wants the same thing -- to make gross profit off of all the idiots lower than them on the pyramid. One person is at the top and everyone else is lower down and most people are on the bottom, but everyone *wants* to be on the top. This is what holds a pyramid scheme together. This is what makes it work, and why it's so difficult to break apart. If the lower levels of the pyramid scheme were interested in making an honest living and helping each other out, they would have no reason to send money upwards and recruit downwards, and the pyramid would collapse. The top of a pyramid scheme exists *because* of the countless people below struggling to reach the top. As they say, you can't cheat an honest man. I would argue that they do think they're losing, in the beginning. I could see a man willing becoming a "martyr" to protect the city and guide others. Now, as the current rules state that upon transformation, he becomes a selfish bloodsucker... Personally, I could see LN or G vampires of Vol. Look at a vampire's stats, and imagine what a town would be willing to give a defender of that much power. A barrel of blood every month, given by everyone in the village, a little bit at a time, would seem a fair price for an ever-vigilant and living protector of the town from the night. Also, imagine the lore he must have. Imagine how he must feel, being inherently physically and mentally superior to a bunch of idiot sheep and yet totally dependent on their largesse to survive. Tops of pyramids are never really very nice to bottoms of pyramids. All the issues that made it so that real-life feudal lords usually weren't as nice to their vassals as they were supposed to be would be multiplied a hundredfold and have all the moderating human emotion leached out when it came to a Vampire of the Blood of Vol. As a rebuttal point, how much do you donate a year? I'm certain you have a fair amount of money you aren't currently using, instead saving it for later, or for some purpose. Why don't you give that savings to a needier soul? The answer, because it's yours, and you have a plan for it. "Minimizing the amount you selflessly give to others"? That's pretty much SOP for most people. Except Exalteds. And wherein do you see the lower levels of the faith's "intentional impedance of other's progress"? AFAIK, they don't actively prevent others from seeking immortality, merely believe that everyone else is doing it the wrong way. And *because* they're doing it the wrong way, we have the right to exploit them, manipulate them, kill them and steal their souls. Don't forget that. The Blood of Vol proper is probably quite aware of the Emerald Claw (How could they not be? They're in the news every other week, it seems) and probably approves of their actions. I would argue that there are a great many more moderates in the church than there are LE "Scions". Yes, the current top infrastructure is unsound, and manipulative, however, they are the TOP. as I mentioned earlier, we're dealing with a pyramid. Their evil decadence is based on the back of self-sacrifice on the bottom. (Really, who wants to donate blood so the champions can continue? Can't I keep MY blood?) "Poor sap! He'll be a rotting corpse while I'm enjoying the fruits of my own personal utopian paradise where my will rules supreme and no other life exists! Other life... ugh." (Remember the BoV notion of paradise is a particularly creepily egoistic one.) See, the bolded section is where I believe we disagree. Yes, the strong lead, thanks, that's life, we all follow those we believe more qualified than ourselves, and I believe that is where the problems arise. The current, heavily undead leadership of the church has a flock of unwitting sheep, whose devotion to the principle of eternal life (A promise made by many religions, just not in eberron) has allowed them to be abused within the system of faith. The strong lead in every religion. Paladins and Clerics of the Flame are certainly stronger than their congregation. However, in the Flame, the strong lead because it is their *duty*. In the Blood, the strong lead because it is their *right*. I see corruption within a system as being the exploitation of others through use of powers vested in you by others. Even if that's what the system is for? This is why, by definition, a pyramid scheme can't be "corrupt". A pyramid scheme operates by the exact same rules at the bottom as at the top (get six people to give you money, keep some, pass the rest up). It's *not good* -- it functions based on a lot of self-delusion, based on a lot of wishful thinking that I can be smarter than all the other rubes and rise to the top -- but there's nothing "corrupt" about the fact that the top of the pyramid is a billionaire and the bottom is a bunch of idiots who lose their life savings for nothing. That's how it's supposed to work. It's inherently built into the rules. The undead using the doctrine to subjugate their followers, I believe is a hidden example. Lacking books, I can't quote ,or be fully sure of this, but I'm fairly certain the BoV does not condone the obstruction of other Seekers. The BoV considers it the *duty* of all Seekers to help those who are stronger than they and extract help from those weaker. You are not allowed, as a Seeker, to say "I won't donate blood this year -- I think I have a better chance of achieving immortality going it alone". That's why it's Lawful and not Chaotic Evil. The goal of immortality is *so important* that the strongest among you must be empowered by everything the weakest among you can give. Infidels aren't cared about, (again, a common trait in most religions), but stopping a fellow seeker is rude at best. (much like the Bible disallows Christians from charging fellow Christians interest on loans.) The Bible doesn't tell Christians it's okay to kill non-Christians and take their stuff for the greater good of the Church. (Certain Popes did say this, but the Bible doesn't.) The BoV pretty much does -- it forbids mundane crime like murder and theft on the community level for practical reasons, but it doesn't ever say such things are *sins*. The Emerald Claw, after all, is a doctrinaire BoV institution. (Even though we talk about it as though it represents the "corruption" of the BoV by Erandis, that's not really fully true -- there are loyal members of the Claw who have never heard of Erandis and fully believe the Claw is doing the Blood's work -- because it is.) Now, just because a leadership or doctrine of the church leads to evil, does not mean that the followers are. I tried using the catholics to illustrate that. But I may have a better, reverse example: I am not afraid to announce that I am a Satanist. The principle doctrine of which is "Do what thou wilt, so long as you harm no undeserving other". I am also an Eagle Scout, and regularly perform community service and other projects. Why? Because I want to. It makes me feel good. Many biologists and sociologist think that Good and altruism arose as a subtle barter exchange of aid in primitive beings. You help others in need, they might help you. At the very least, the odds of them attacking or opposing you are lower. Now, just because the system supports evil, or can be interpreted to do so, does not me that everyone, or even a majority will. Your average BoV follower, a peasant in Karrnath, will be as willing to lend a hand to his neighbor as A follower of the Host. The Blood of Vol actively teaches that these nice, fuzzy feelings you get from helping people out are *bad* and *foolish* -- that the Church of the Silver Flame's emphasis on compassion and good deeds is its *weakness*. Because we face a world of death and suffering, and the only way to overcome it is to *fight*. Altruistic impulses exist, but they're tempting us to become complacent in the face of death and suffering. If you actually weigh "warm, fuzzy feelings" to "an eternity of nothingness in Dolurrh", then no warm, fuzzy feeling is worth risking death -- *everything* must be sacrificed, in the end, to defeat death, even normal human decency. Ordinary Seekers don't have to sacrifice all their normal human decency because they're not powerful enough for their efforts to be important. The higher up you go, though, the less decency you can afford to have.
ArcTan 08-10-07, 09:25 PM	Note that I do think there are certainly Good and Neutral Seekers. There are also Evil and Neutral Purified. But there's no reason to suppose there are any *more* Good Seekers than there are Evil Purified. And it should work the same way -- a general mix when it comes to the general populace, maybe with a slight bias toward Good when it comes to the Flame and a slight bias toward Evil when it comes to the Blood. As you rise through the ranks, though, it's harder and harder to be a devoted clergyman of the Flame without some real Good beliefs, and it's harder and harder to be a devoted Seeker without some real Evil beliefs. There are big exceptions -- Cardinal Krozen, our hypothetical Paladin of the Blood of Vol -- but they would be *exceptions*, and notable for being exceptional. I would *not* rule that the average Cleric of the Blood of Vol could ever be Good-aligned. Someone with actual Cleric levels who was Good-aligned would be an inverse Cardinal Krozen -- someone suffering from serious doublethink issues.
Edymnion 08-13-07, 01:02 PM	I think ArcTan and I will just have to agree to dissagree.
eehamburg 08-13-07, 01:23 PM	I think that you guys have gone over the 5 word limit. :D
motorfirebox 08-23-07, 01:49 AM	"Vol's easier t'spell than 'Nietzsche'!"
Edymnion 08-23-07, 08:26 AM	"Vol's easier t'spell than 'Nietzsche'!""Nietzsche's more fun to say." :D