Fun with Extra-Dimensional Spaces... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fun with Extra-Dimensional Spaces... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arryn
05-01-07, 12:12 PM Ok, I have two questions and they both deal with items that have extra-dimensional spaces.

1) HEALING IN THE MOURNLAND
Spells that create extra-dimesional spaces like rope trick allow for normal healing and healing type spells while within the Mournland. Does this also apply to a Portable Hole or Bag of Holding? The DMG says that the air limit in a Bag of Holding is 10 minutes. Is it possible to climb into one, (Provided you don't overload the weight capacity) drink a potion or cast a Cure spell then get out feeling all better?

2)PORTABLE WORKSHOP
I know this is possible with a Portable Hole, but if an Artificer has a Dedicated Wright could this Tiny sized creature work while in the confines of the main pouch of a Heward's Handy Haversack? It doesn't need to breathe and the DMG says there is an 8 cubic foot space in there so, provided again that the weight limits aren't reached, could an adventuring Artificer have his Dedicated Wright working in his sack while he's off... well... adventuring?

So what? Are these exploits? Creative uses for existing items? Both? Input would be greatly appreciated.
Edymnion
05-01-07, 12:59 PM 1) HEALING IN THE MOURNLAND
Spells that create extra-dimesional spaces like rope trick allow for normal healing and healing type spells while within the Mournland. Does this also apply to a Portable Hole or Bag of Holding? The DMG says that the air limit in a Bag of Holding is 10 minutes. Is it possible to climb into one, (Provided you don't overload the weight capacity) drink a potion or cast a Cure spell then get out feeling all better?If your DM lets you get away with the extra-dimensional space loophole to begin with, then yes, this should work as well.
2)PORTABLE WORKSHOP
I know this is possible with a Portable Hole, but if an Artificer has a Dedicated Wright could this Tiny sized creature work while in the confines of the main pouch of a Heward's Handy Haversack? It doesn't need to breathe and the DMG says there is an 8 cubic foot space in there so, provided again that the weight limits aren't reached, could an adventuring Artificer have his Dedicated Wright working in his sack while he's off... well... adventuring?Don't forget that the haversack is listed as working like a bag of holding, so the same rules that apply to piercing a bag of holding apply to the haversack as well. Plus, the pack is still moving and jostling, and does not have a solid surface. How well could anyone craft anything when they're scrunched up in a moving sack?
Arryn
05-01-07, 01:13 PM Plus, the pack is still moving and jostling, and does not have a solid surface. How well could anyone craft anything when they're scrunched up in a moving sack?

The piercing thing is a given, obviously care must be taken. As to the jostling thing, I guess I figured that since it is an extra-dimensional space, what happens outside of it makes little difference as to what happens inside. Has it been written anywhere that jostling a Bag of Holding affects the contents inside or is this up for interpretation?
Vharuck
05-01-07, 07:03 PM How well could anyone craft anything when they're scrunched up in a moving sack?

Pretty well if you beat him hard enough each time he messes up and whines about, "But I was thrown upside down and the hot iron scalded my arm!" Well, sometimes you need to replace the wright if you beat too hard, and then you have to start the beating regimen all over again!

Wrights, I tell you.
Edymnion
05-01-07, 09:27 PM The piercing thing is a given, obviously care must be taken.And it pretty much rules out anything that requires fire, or hammering (as there's nothing to hammer on), probably going to rule out leatherworking due to the needles involved, etc.

About the only thing I could see being craftable in a haversack or bag of holding would be chainmail.

And of course the one last problem, light. You're going to need to give him something to see by.
Arryn
05-01-07, 09:51 PM And it pretty much rules out anything that requires fire, or hammering (as there's nothing to hammer on), probably going to rule out leatherworking due to the needles involved, etc.

About the only thing I could see being craftable in a haversack or bag of holding would be chainmail.

And of course the one last problem, light. You're going to need to give him something to see by.

Ok... well... to quote the DMG: "If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp items pierce it [...] the bag ruptures and is ruined." Hammers don't pierce and neither does fire.

I should note that I was thinking of the bag as more of a place to brew potions, scribe scrolls and work on Wondrous Magic Items, not so much as an armory as this would quickly exceed the weight limits.

As for the light thing... Everburning Torch anyone?
Edymnion
05-01-07, 09:56 PM Ok... well... to quote the DMG: "If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp items pierce it [...] the bag ruptures and is ruined." Hammers don't pierce and neither does fire. Hammers have to have something solid and braced to hammer on, or the force of the blow is useless. Try driving a nail when you're holding the wood in your hand and you'll see.

But yeah, if the bag ruptures, what do you think happens if you light a fire in there and it burns a hole through the side of the bag? Nothing says that the inside of the bag is immune to elemental damage. You pour a bottle of acid in there, its going to dissolve the bottom of the bag and do the same thing as piercing it with a sword would have.
Arryn
05-01-07, 10:14 PM Hammers have to have something solid and braced to hammer on, or the force of the blow is useless. Try driving a nail when you're holding the wood in your hand and you'll see.

But yeah, if the bag ruptures, what do you think happens if you light a fire in there and it burns a hole through the side of the bag? Nothing says that the inside of the bag is immune to elemental damage. You pour a bottle of acid in there, its going to dissolve the bottom of the bag and do the same thing as piercing it with a sword would have.

Hence the care must be taken comment.

Ok... so Edymnion obviously doesn't like the idea, anyone else have thoughts on this?
DireHawk
05-01-07, 10:45 PM I'd say it's fine. Artificers are meant to make magical items, and this gives them a way of exploring these very abilities during actual adventure, rather than during "downtime". I mean, artificers get all those craft feats, so why would it be so bad to give an artificer a way of actually using them in a way that can affect the course of a current adventure? How much cooler would it be if the artificer got a mental ping in the middle of a key battle, then he goes into his bag, and pulls out his latest weapon, fresh off the hearth, tosses it to the nearest meatshield, and turns the tide of the battle. Besides, if you wanna be all raw monkeyish or rules-lawyery about it, as Edymnion tends to be, just add 50% to the cost of the bag of holding and turn it into a bag of holding + portable artificer's workshop.
Cifer
05-03-07, 06:33 PM @Dire
That's all fine - but you need more space than a HHH can give you. Portable holes are well-known for this possibility.
Please think for a moment about how much eight cubic feet are - precisely eight cubes with an edge length of one foot. Four or five of those would probably already be used by the wright. Now go on to think exactly how large a standard alchimist's/enchanter's workshop probably is.

About the healing: I doubt you could use a bag of holding for standard characters (small ones may have a chance with a HHH), but a portable hole should be enough.

If your DM lets you get away with the extra-dimensional space loophole to begin with, then yes, this should work as well
I'm not sure whether it can be considered a loophole when it's printed in the sourcebooks...
Knightstar
05-08-07, 03:56 AM heh, i remember doing something like this when i was playing my kobold artificer. i built a shield guardian with a slightly enlarged chest cavity and built an extra dimensional laboratory (using a version of rope trick at first, and then eventually mordenkainens mansion) inside of it. he walked and did most of the fighting while i made things and kept it runnin from inside the chest.

course it got silly when i built a pair of armored iron defenders to jump out of he chest when he got outnumbered...

and then came iron kobold.

ya know what, nevermind. im crawling back into my hole.
xaeric
05-08-07, 10:44 AM While a dedicated wright in a extra dimensional space sounds great most people seem to ignore the fact that, while the DW does not need air the fire still does. Thus anything needing fire to craft cannot be done in extra dimensional space.
RogueElement
05-08-07, 07:44 PM Exactly, the fire will go out in a puff of smoke pretty quick, but there's no reason that the DW can't make magic items in a bag of holding or handy haversack. As far as I can tell, you just need to look really hard at items until they become magical...you don't need any more room than the DW plus the item for that.
Edymnion
05-08-07, 09:41 PM I'm not sure whether it can be considered a loophole when it's printed in the sourcebooks...It was a loophole until somebody decided to "cover it" by putting it in a sourcebook.

You know, like how "If its in D&D, then its in Eberron!" is an intentional miss-reading of the ECS, yet some frelling moron decided it would be a good idea to repeat that line in a later sourcebook complete with the "everything in the game is in Eberron somewhere!" connation.

But then, hey, I'm well known for the lethality of my Mournlands. I don't allow healing in the Mournlands. Period. No goodberry wine, no rope trick, no laying on of hands, no psionic healing, nothing. The only ways to recover hp in my mournlands is to be a Warforged making a repair check/recieving a Repair X Damage spell/infusion, or by hostile healing (such as vampiric weapons), and the hostile healing only works at half power. And by hostile, I mean that one character takes damage, and part of that damage is transferred to someone else. The one taking damage still takes full damage, the one recieving the hp only gets half of normal.

In my Mournlands, anybody that thinks "CHARGE!!!" is a valid tactic is going to die, horribly. In my Mournlands, you use your head, make ambushes, and just flat out RUN AWAY, or you die.
Cifer
05-09-07, 12:32 PM While a dedicated wright in a extra dimensional space sounds great most people seem to ignore the fact that, while the DW does not need air the fire still does. Thus anything needing fire to craft cannot be done in extra dimensional space.
A bottle of air solves that problem quite well, by the way.
MageWeasel
05-09-07, 09:19 PM Rogue Elements got a point here. Making a sword is one thing, enchanting an already made masterwork sword is another. In all my years, I have yet to find any text that describes, in detail, the specific tools involved in constructing magic items.

I would like to think that leaving out such things was done deliberately so that DM's would have absolute control over how items are made in their individual campaigns, as the notion of pc's constructing their own gear is an important one.

If it were me I'd probably say it was possible to make some items in that sort of circumstance, but not just any ol' thing you pull out of the DMG. I would keep a close eye on what is produced and exercise full veto power if it starts getting ridiculous.
Michael_Silverforge
05-11-07, 09:58 AM Master Arryn, in order to answer the two questions you posed, it is my opinion that another more fundamental question must be asked, which is "Where does transdimensional or extra-dimensional space exist?" IF the answer is "Somewhere outside Eberron, in fact outside all known planes of existence. Each transdimensional/extra-dimensional space is its own tiny plane of existence.", as is the basic answer in my campaign, then my answers to your questions would be:

1) Yes, with appropriate weight and capacity limits applied, as you outlined. This is what allows the 'loophole' in the ‘Mournland healing restrictions’, if you enter a space that is no longer in the Mournland then you no longer have the restrictions associated with the Mournland. The same would apply if you Teleported to Sharn, healed, and then Teleported back to the Mournland, or Gated to another plane, healed, and then Gated back.

2) No, to all forms of portable workshops due to the 1,500 foot distance restriction applied to all homunculi, except the Expeditious Messenger. Given that the extra-dimensional space does not exist on Eberron (again, my specific campaigns' definition) then once the Portable Hole; Bag of Holding; or Heward's Handy Haversack is shut, then the distance between the space and the Artificer is now infinite. Since the Dedicated Wright is an extension of yourself, it would know this and would never willingly enter such a space unless you also entered that space.
Arryn
05-11-07, 10:31 AM 2) No, to all forms of portable workshops due to the 1,500 foot distance restriction applied to all homunculi, except the Expeditious Messenger. Given that the extra-dimensional space does not exist on Eberron (again, my specific campaigns' definition) then once the Portable Hole; Bag of Holding; or Heward's Handy Haversack is shut, then the distance between the space and the Artificer is now infinite. Since the Dedicated Wright is an extension of yourself, it would know this and would never willingly enter such a space unless you also entered that space.

Now THAT is a really interesting take, and one I definately agree with. (It's also the first 'negative' reaction to the idea that doesn't scream, "BLARGHGH I'm the DM and I have infinite power and I say No.... No.... NOOOOOOOO!!!!")

I think you nailed it on the head why this would not work. I guess it is back to the drawing board for my Artificer. Thanks!
MageWeasel
05-12-07, 03:10 PM Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can tell the homuculus can't communicate with it's creator if more than 1500 feet away. But it's says nothing about how it functions or how well it carries out it's assigned task. Seems to me the mage or arty could enter the space, spend an hour telling his/her wright what to do (assuming he/she can get around the "no air" thing), then leave it to do it's work.

Although this means that the mage will need enough space for him/her self, the wright, and whatever kind of crap is needed to build the item.
Grumgarr
05-16-07, 05:56 AM I don't see the range limit as being a problem with a Dedicated Wright.
The whole point of this type of homunculous is that it does the crafting for you while you're off adventuring. So it can't communicate with you...so what?
You give it a task, it uses the skills you imbued it with to perform it.

I woud say that there's no way a DW fits in a HHH and is able to work on crafting anything, though. 8 cubic feet is really a tiny amount of space (2x2x2), and is not nearly enough IMO.

If you want to go down this route, get your artificer a portable hole.

On the extradimensional spaces, damage and the Mournland I got nothin'. :)
Cifer
05-16-07, 11:36 AM Given that the extra-dimensional space does not exist on Eberron (again, my specific campaigns' definition) then once the Portable Hole; Bag of Holding; or Heward's Handy Haversack is shut, then the distance between the space and the Artificer is now infinite.
It is? I'd rather say that as long as no gap to the material world exists, the distance is undefined, which is not the same as infinite. Further, I'd imagine the relevant distance is that of the hole towards the owner.
What happens when the homunculus is enclosed in a small box of adamantine? For all practical reasons, it can reach it's owner just as well as if it were off of Eberron. Is that distance also "infinite"?
Michael_Silverforge
05-17-07, 08:51 AM Master MageWeasel and Master Grumgarr,
I had based my reply on the phrase in ECS p 285, 1st column, 1st paragraph, which gave the 1500 foot communication limit and then went on to say the homunculus would not travel beyond that distance willingly. Given my original assumption of infinite distance between the transdimensional/extra-dimensional (TD/ED) space (which is very debatable), the dedicated wright would not willingly enter said TD/ED space. I had also originally interpreted this to mean that the reverse is true, if the master tries to go beyond 1500 feet from the homunculus, the homunculus would try to follow (again, debatable and not clearly stated in the rules). However upon reading the sentence under the Dedicated Wright (DW) which states the DW can receive instructions and go about its tasks and the master can then go off adventuring, would indicate that the master can travel beyond 1500 feet from the DW (other types of houmunculi again debatable) and the DW would perform it's tasks. Given that information I would now agree with you that the master and the DW could enter a ED/TD space together, the master could spend his hour and instruct the DW and then leave the ED/TD space and the DW would perform his instructions.

Master Cifer,
Could you define the distance between the ED/TD space as 'undefined' rather than 'infinite', you most certainly could. In the particular campaign I'm in we have chosen infinite.
If you place the homunculus in an adamantine box (I'm assuming the box is on Eberron), then the distance between the homunculus and the owner is the actual physical distance between the homunculus and the owner, since they are on the same plane of existence. If the box (or the owner) is then placed in a portable hole, in my specific campaign the two would then be an infinite distance apart once the portable hole was closed.

Master Arryn,
One other possible way to answer my original question of "Where does TD/ED space exist?" is to say that TD/ED space exists on the same plane as the TD/ED space item it 'simply' defies the laws of physics and allows two items to occupy the same space at the same time. It is after all magic. In this case I would say the answers to your questions would be:

1) No, since the ED/TD space is still in the Mournland it is still subject to the same restrictions of the Mournland.
2) Yes
SethKalis
05-22-07, 06:26 AM Hmm... I hate to restate things already said, or step on anyones toes. But from a mathematical point of view I have to say that if the space created inside of a bag of holding is, in fact, in ANY other dimension (other than maybe ethereal) that 'distance' per say is not really a factor. It is undefined. There really is no way to call it infinite... because if it has distance, it has direction... ever tried pointing to something on the plane of fire (for example)? It doesn't really work. Unfortunately, this still doesn't fully solve the problem, as 'undefined' can't be called more or less than 1500 feet. ... ... So, yeah... my worthless two coppers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arryn 05-01-07, 12:12 PM	Ok, I have two questions and they both deal with items that have extra-dimensional spaces. 1) HEALING IN THE MOURNLAND Spells that create extra-dimesional spaces like rope trick allow for normal healing and healing type spells while within the Mournland. Does this also apply to a Portable Hole or Bag of Holding? The DMG says that the air limit in a Bag of Holding is 10 minutes. Is it possible to climb into one, (Provided you don't overload the weight capacity) drink a potion or cast a Cure spell then get out feeling all better? 2)PORTABLE WORKSHOP I know this is possible with a Portable Hole, but if an Artificer has a Dedicated Wright could this Tiny sized creature work while in the confines of the main pouch of a Heward's Handy Haversack? It doesn't need to breathe and the DMG says there is an 8 cubic foot space in there so, provided again that the weight limits aren't reached, could an adventuring Artificer have his Dedicated Wright working in his sack while he's off... well... adventuring? So what? Are these exploits? Creative uses for existing items? Both? Input would be greatly appreciated.
Edymnion 05-01-07, 12:59 PM	1) HEALING IN THE MOURNLAND Spells that create extra-dimesional spaces like rope trick allow for normal healing and healing type spells while within the Mournland. Does this also apply to a Portable Hole or Bag of Holding? The DMG says that the air limit in a Bag of Holding is 10 minutes. Is it possible to climb into one, (Provided you don't overload the weight capacity) drink a potion or cast a Cure spell then get out feeling all better?If your DM lets you get away with the extra-dimensional space loophole to begin with, then yes, this should work as well. 2)PORTABLE WORKSHOP I know this is possible with a Portable Hole, but if an Artificer has a Dedicated Wright could this Tiny sized creature work while in the confines of the main pouch of a Heward's Handy Haversack? It doesn't need to breathe and the DMG says there is an 8 cubic foot space in there so, provided again that the weight limits aren't reached, could an adventuring Artificer have his Dedicated Wright working in his sack while he's off... well... adventuring?Don't forget that the haversack is listed as working like a bag of holding, so the same rules that apply to piercing a bag of holding apply to the haversack as well. Plus, the pack is still moving and jostling, and does not have a solid surface. How well could anyone craft anything when they're scrunched up in a moving sack?
Arryn 05-01-07, 01:13 PM	Plus, the pack is still moving and jostling, and does not have a solid surface. How well could anyone craft anything when they're scrunched up in a moving sack? The piercing thing is a given, obviously care must be taken. As to the jostling thing, I guess I figured that since it is an extra-dimensional space, what happens outside of it makes little difference as to what happens inside. Has it been written anywhere that jostling a Bag of Holding affects the contents inside or is this up for interpretation?
Vharuck 05-01-07, 07:03 PM	How well could anyone craft anything when they're scrunched up in a moving sack? Pretty well if you beat him hard enough each time he messes up and whines about, "But I was thrown upside down and the hot iron scalded my arm!" Well, sometimes you need to replace the wright if you beat too hard, and then you have to start the beating regimen all over again! Wrights, I tell you.
Edymnion 05-01-07, 09:27 PM	The piercing thing is a given, obviously care must be taken.And it pretty much rules out anything that requires fire, or hammering (as there's nothing to hammer on), probably going to rule out leatherworking due to the needles involved, etc. About the only thing I could see being craftable in a haversack or bag of holding would be chainmail. And of course the one last problem, light. You're going to need to give him something to see by.
Arryn 05-01-07, 09:51 PM	And it pretty much rules out anything that requires fire, or hammering (as there's nothing to hammer on), probably going to rule out leatherworking due to the needles involved, etc. About the only thing I could see being craftable in a haversack or bag of holding would be chainmail. And of course the one last problem, light. You're going to need to give him something to see by. Ok... well... to quote the DMG: "If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp items pierce it [...] the bag ruptures and is ruined." Hammers don't pierce and neither does fire. I should note that I was thinking of the bag as more of a place to brew potions, scribe scrolls and work on Wondrous Magic Items, not so much as an armory as this would quickly exceed the weight limits. As for the light thing... Everburning Torch anyone?
Edymnion 05-01-07, 09:56 PM	Ok... well... to quote the DMG: "If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp items pierce it [...] the bag ruptures and is ruined." Hammers don't pierce and neither does fire. Hammers have to have something solid and braced to hammer on, or the force of the blow is useless. Try driving a nail when you're holding the wood in your hand and you'll see. But yeah, if the bag ruptures, what do you think happens if you light a fire in there and it burns a hole through the side of the bag? Nothing says that the inside of the bag is immune to elemental damage. You pour a bottle of acid in there, its going to dissolve the bottom of the bag and do the same thing as piercing it with a sword would have.
Arryn 05-01-07, 10:14 PM	Hammers have to have something solid and braced to hammer on, or the force of the blow is useless. Try driving a nail when you're holding the wood in your hand and you'll see. But yeah, if the bag ruptures, what do you think happens if you light a fire in there and it burns a hole through the side of the bag? Nothing says that the inside of the bag is immune to elemental damage. You pour a bottle of acid in there, its going to dissolve the bottom of the bag and do the same thing as piercing it with a sword would have. Hence the care must be taken comment. Ok... so Edymnion obviously doesn't like the idea, anyone else have thoughts on this?
DireHawk 05-01-07, 10:45 PM	I'd say it's fine. Artificers are meant to make magical items, and this gives them a way of exploring these very abilities during actual adventure, rather than during "downtime". I mean, artificers get all those craft feats, so why would it be so bad to give an artificer a way of actually using them in a way that can affect the course of a current adventure? How much cooler would it be if the artificer got a mental ping in the middle of a key battle, then he goes into his bag, and pulls out his latest weapon, fresh off the hearth, tosses it to the nearest meatshield, and turns the tide of the battle. Besides, if you wanna be all raw monkeyish or rules-lawyery about it, as Edymnion tends to be, just add 50% to the cost of the bag of holding and turn it into a bag of holding + portable artificer's workshop.
Cifer 05-03-07, 06:33 PM	@Dire That's all fine - but you need more space than a HHH can give you. Portable holes are well-known for this possibility. Please think for a moment about how much eight cubic feet are - precisely eight cubes with an edge length of one foot. Four or five of those would probably already be used by the wright. Now go on to think exactly how large a standard alchimist's/enchanter's workshop probably is. About the healing: I doubt you could use a bag of holding for standard characters (small ones may have a chance with a HHH), but a portable hole should be enough. If your DM lets you get away with the extra-dimensional space loophole to begin with, then yes, this should work as well I'm not sure whether it can be considered a loophole when it's printed in the sourcebooks...
Knightstar 05-08-07, 03:56 AM	heh, i remember doing something like this when i was playing my kobold artificer. i built a shield guardian with a slightly enlarged chest cavity and built an extra dimensional laboratory (using a version of rope trick at first, and then eventually mordenkainens mansion) inside of it. he walked and did most of the fighting while i made things and kept it runnin from inside the chest. course it got silly when i built a pair of armored iron defenders to jump out of he chest when he got outnumbered... and then came iron kobold. ya know what, nevermind. im crawling back into my hole.
xaeric 05-08-07, 10:44 AM	While a dedicated wright in a extra dimensional space sounds great most people seem to ignore the fact that, while the DW does not need air the fire still does. Thus anything needing fire to craft cannot be done in extra dimensional space.
RogueElement 05-08-07, 07:44 PM	Exactly, the fire will go out in a puff of smoke pretty quick, but there's no reason that the DW can't make magic items in a bag of holding or handy haversack. As far as I can tell, you just need to look really hard at items until they become magical...you don't need any more room than the DW plus the item for that.
Edymnion 05-08-07, 09:41 PM	I'm not sure whether it can be considered a loophole when it's printed in the sourcebooks...It was a loophole until somebody decided to "cover it" by putting it in a sourcebook. You know, like how "If its in D&D, then its in Eberron!" is an intentional miss-reading of the ECS, yet some frelling moron decided it would be a good idea to repeat that line in a later sourcebook complete with the "everything in the game is in Eberron somewhere!" connation. But then, hey, I'm well known for the lethality of my Mournlands. I don't allow healing in the Mournlands. Period. No goodberry wine, no rope trick, no laying on of hands, no psionic healing, nothing. The only ways to recover hp in my mournlands is to be a Warforged making a repair check/recieving a Repair X Damage spell/infusion, or by hostile healing (such as vampiric weapons), and the hostile healing only works at half power. And by hostile, I mean that one character takes damage, and part of that damage is transferred to someone else. The one taking damage still takes full damage, the one recieving the hp only gets half of normal. In my Mournlands, anybody that thinks "CHARGE!!!" is a valid tactic is going to die, horribly. In my Mournlands, you use your head, make ambushes, and just flat out RUN AWAY, or you die.
Cifer 05-09-07, 12:32 PM	While a dedicated wright in a extra dimensional space sounds great most people seem to ignore the fact that, while the DW does not need air the fire still does. Thus anything needing fire to craft cannot be done in extra dimensional space. A bottle of air solves that problem quite well, by the way.
MageWeasel 05-09-07, 09:19 PM	Rogue Elements got a point here. Making a sword is one thing, enchanting an already made masterwork sword is another. In all my years, I have yet to find any text that describes, in detail, the specific tools involved in constructing magic items. I would like to think that leaving out such things was done deliberately so that DM's would have absolute control over how items are made in their individual campaigns, as the notion of pc's constructing their own gear is an important one. If it were me I'd probably say it was possible to make some items in that sort of circumstance, but not just any ol' thing you pull out of the DMG. I would keep a close eye on what is produced and exercise full veto power if it starts getting ridiculous.
Michael_Silverforge 05-11-07, 09:58 AM	Master Arryn, in order to answer the two questions you posed, it is my opinion that another more fundamental question must be asked, which is "Where does transdimensional or extra-dimensional space exist?" IF the answer is "Somewhere outside Eberron, in fact outside all known planes of existence. Each transdimensional/extra-dimensional space is its own tiny plane of existence.", as is the basic answer in my campaign, then my answers to your questions would be: 1) Yes, with appropriate weight and capacity limits applied, as you outlined. This is what allows the 'loophole' in the ‘Mournland healing restrictions’, if you enter a space that is no longer in the Mournland then you no longer have the restrictions associated with the Mournland. The same would apply if you Teleported to Sharn, healed, and then Teleported back to the Mournland, or Gated to another plane, healed, and then Gated back. 2) No, to all forms of portable workshops due to the 1,500 foot distance restriction applied to all homunculi, except the Expeditious Messenger. Given that the extra-dimensional space does not exist on Eberron (again, my specific campaigns' definition) then once the Portable Hole; Bag of Holding; or Heward's Handy Haversack is shut, then the distance between the space and the Artificer is now infinite. Since the Dedicated Wright is an extension of yourself, it would know this and would never willingly enter such a space unless you also entered that space.
Arryn 05-11-07, 10:31 AM	2) No, to all forms of portable workshops due to the 1,500 foot distance restriction applied to all homunculi, except the Expeditious Messenger. Given that the extra-dimensional space does not exist on Eberron (again, my specific campaigns' definition) then once the Portable Hole; Bag of Holding; or Heward's Handy Haversack is shut, then the distance between the space and the Artificer is now infinite. Since the Dedicated Wright is an extension of yourself, it would know this and would never willingly enter such a space unless you also entered that space. Now THAT is a really interesting take, and one I definately agree with. (It's also the first 'negative' reaction to the idea that doesn't scream, "BLARGHGH I'm the DM and I have infinite power and I say No.... No.... NOOOOOOOO!!!!") I think you nailed it on the head why this would not work. I guess it is back to the drawing board for my Artificer. Thanks!
MageWeasel 05-12-07, 03:10 PM	Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can tell the homuculus can't communicate with it's creator if more than 1500 feet away. But it's says nothing about how it functions or how well it carries out it's assigned task. Seems to me the mage or arty could enter the space, spend an hour telling his/her wright what to do (assuming he/she can get around the "no air" thing), then leave it to do it's work. Although this means that the mage will need enough space for him/her self, the wright, and whatever kind of crap is needed to build the item.
Grumgarr 05-16-07, 05:56 AM	I don't see the range limit as being a problem with a Dedicated Wright. The whole point of this type of homunculous is that it does the crafting for you while you're off adventuring. So it can't communicate with you...so what? You give it a task, it uses the skills you imbued it with to perform it. I woud say that there's no way a DW fits in a HHH and is able to work on crafting anything, though. 8 cubic feet is really a tiny amount of space (2x2x2), and is not nearly enough IMO. If you want to go down this route, get your artificer a portable hole. On the extradimensional spaces, damage and the Mournland I got nothin'. :)
Cifer 05-16-07, 11:36 AM	Given that the extra-dimensional space does not exist on Eberron (again, my specific campaigns' definition) then once the Portable Hole; Bag of Holding; or Heward's Handy Haversack is shut, then the distance between the space and the Artificer is now infinite. It is? I'd rather say that as long as no gap to the material world exists, the distance is undefined, which is not the same as infinite. Further, I'd imagine the relevant distance is that of the hole towards the owner. What happens when the homunculus is enclosed in a small box of adamantine? For all practical reasons, it can reach it's owner just as well as if it were off of Eberron. Is that distance also "infinite"?
Michael_Silverforge 05-17-07, 08:51 AM	Master MageWeasel and Master Grumgarr, I had based my reply on the phrase in ECS p 285, 1st column, 1st paragraph, which gave the 1500 foot communication limit and then went on to say the homunculus would not travel beyond that distance willingly. Given my original assumption of infinite distance between the transdimensional/extra-dimensional (TD/ED) space (which is very debatable), the dedicated wright would not willingly enter said TD/ED space. I had also originally interpreted this to mean that the reverse is true, if the master tries to go beyond 1500 feet from the homunculus, the homunculus would try to follow (again, debatable and not clearly stated in the rules). However upon reading the sentence under the Dedicated Wright (DW) which states the DW can receive instructions and go about its tasks and the master can then go off adventuring, would indicate that the master can travel beyond 1500 feet from the DW (other types of houmunculi again debatable) and the DW would perform it's tasks. Given that information I would now agree with you that the master and the DW could enter a ED/TD space together, the master could spend his hour and instruct the DW and then leave the ED/TD space and the DW would perform his instructions. Master Cifer, Could you define the distance between the ED/TD space as 'undefined' rather than 'infinite', you most certainly could. In the particular campaign I'm in we have chosen infinite. If you place the homunculus in an adamantine box (I'm assuming the box is on Eberron), then the distance between the homunculus and the owner is the actual physical distance between the homunculus and the owner, since they are on the same plane of existence. If the box (or the owner) is then placed in a portable hole, in my specific campaign the two would then be an infinite distance apart once the portable hole was closed. Master Arryn, One other possible way to answer my original question of "Where does TD/ED space exist?" is to say that TD/ED space exists on the same plane as the TD/ED space item it 'simply' defies the laws of physics and allows two items to occupy the same space at the same time. It is after all magic. In this case I would say the answers to your questions would be: 1) No, since the ED/TD space is still in the Mournland it is still subject to the same restrictions of the Mournland. 2) Yes
SethKalis 05-22-07, 06:26 AM	Hmm... I hate to restate things already said, or step on anyones toes. But from a mathematical point of view I have to say that if the space created inside of a bag of holding is, in fact, in ANY other dimension (other than maybe ethereal) that 'distance' per say is not really a factor. It is undefined. There really is no way to call it infinite... because if it has distance, it has direction... ever tried pointing to something on the plane of fire (for example)? It doesn't really work. Unfortunately, this still doesn't fully solve the problem, as 'undefined' can't be called more or less than 1500 feet. ... ... So, yeah... my worthless two coppers.