Gods in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gods in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Witchcraft
03-04-07, 11:54 AM I was in the local gaming store reading Faithes of Eberron. It was sadly in english so I had a tad of a trouble understanding what the book said. It seemed to me that gods in eberron have more or less a "spirtual feel", meaning they are "in everything" then having an acutal form. Unlike with the core DnD gods which are "real".

Help!!!! Witchcraft
Nived
03-04-07, 12:08 PM You are correct.

While the myths of the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six often refer to them like they are people, or at least functioning individuals, particularly The Traveler, there is no proving they exist.

In Greyhawk, The Realms, or Dragonlance the gods walk the world, they have personal contact with their followers, you an go meet one through the use of the commune spell. This isn't true in Eberron. The gods do not walk the face of Eberron, a commune spell will let you speak to a powerful outsider (angel or devil) that also worships your god devoutly but they, like you have never physically seen 'god'. Rather followers of the pantheons 'see' their gods in everything. FoE says its debatable how the Host and the Six came into being, they didn't create the world. They mearly are the embodiment of certain actions and concepts.

Therefore every forgefire IS Onatar, Olladra is at every party when you raise a glass in toast, just as every destructive storm is the Devourerer, just as Dol Dorn resides in the arms of good men, just as The Mockery resides in the hearts of evil men.

In Eberron, one would never see a god appear in the same way that Zues, or Odin would, wielding lightning and coming down from on high... rather, for believers, they see their gods all around them in everyday life.
Witchcraft
03-04-07, 12:22 PM You are correct.

While the myths of the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six often refer to them like they are people, or at least functioning individuals, particularly The Traveler, there is no proving they exist.

In Greyhawk, The Realms, or Dragonlance the gods walk the world, they have personal contact with their followers, you an go meet one through the use of the commune spell. This isn't true in Eberron. The gods do not walk the face of Eberron, a commune spell will let you speak to a powerful outsider (angel or devil) that also worships your god devoutly but they, like you have never physically seen 'god'. Rather followers of the pantheons 'see' their gods in everything. FoE says its debatable how the Host and the Six came into being, they didn't create the world. They mearly are the embodiment of certain actions and concepts.

Therefore every forgefire IS Onatar, Olladra is at every party when you raise a glass in toast, just as every destructive storm is the Devourerer, just as Dol Dorn resides in the arms of good men, just as The Mockery resides in the hearts of evil men.

In Eberron, one would never see a god appear in the same way that Zues, or Odin would, wielding lightning and coming down from on high... rather, for believers, they see their gods all around them in everyday life.

Ya!!! I can read english!!!! Anyone elses thoughts on the subject?
Magicianguy131
03-04-07, 12:25 PM *In deep thought* Well then, couldnt you say that the Clerics worship a "concept" instead of a god? Also, how woudl Favoured Souls come into play? Paladins?
SSj3goblin
03-04-07, 01:08 PM No, because to them their gods are real.
Kid SixXx
03-04-07, 01:24 PM In Eberron, one would never see a god appear in the same way that Zues, or Odin would, wielding lightning and coming down from on high... rather, for believers, they see their gods all around them in everyday life.

Well, the Silver Fire actually does have a physical manifestation & it's effect on the Speaker is pretty evident, but the call on whether the or not the Flame is actually "divine" is still anyone's call.
JulesCARV
03-04-07, 02:22 PM Religion in Eberron isn't all that complicated. A worshipper of the Sovereign Host could cover the whole spectrum of views that you could find in the religious Jews, Christians, and other religious people you know.

Some of them have a very literal faith that the Sovereigns are up there somewhere, in some plane that can't be accessed with plane shift. They actively intervene in the world, fighting against the Dark Six, and having a real and pervasive, albeit undetectable, influence. Some might have a more metaphorical faith -- believing that the gods are real, yes, but they aren't physical entities that you could go meet if only plane shift were more powerful: they exist throughout the world in everything. Some might want to believe, but secretly be agnostics who aren't so sure that they're real. Some might view gods as forces -- Dol Arrah is made up of all who fight for justice in a militant, active manner: righteous clerics of the Sovereign Host, paladins of the Silver Flame, archons in Shavarath, Kalashtar psions, all might be said to be small pieces of the corporate entity of "Dol Arrah."

In short, there's no universal way of worshipping the gods. Some might take a conceptual, metaphorical view of the faith, but some might take it very literally -- just as literally as someone in Forgotten Realms, although such literalism depends on faith, not evidence. The fact is, the gods in Eberron may or may not be real. Neither us players in the metagame nor characters within the game know for sure. (well, us players in the metagame know that they're not real in the sense that everything in Eberron is part of a fictional world, but we don't know whether the gods are any less real than, say, Karrlakton or Queen Aurala) However, that doesn't mean that some in Eberron might not have a very real, literal faith -- just as people do here on Earth.
Nived
03-04-07, 03:28 PM Well, the Silver Fire actually does have a physical manifestation & it's effect on the Speaker is pretty evident, but the call on whether the or not the Flame is actually "divine" is still anyone's call.

In my explainations I tried to say 'the pantheons' as an excluder to the Flame and the Blood of Vol, and the Path of Light.

Those religions are fundimentally different than the pantheonic religions of the Host and the Dark Six.
Sereno
03-05-07, 09:24 AM The 'remoteness' of the Eberron deities (Silver Flame, excepted) actually make them feel more *real* to me than some of the religions of other gaming worlds.

To me, religion is based on faith and there's no need for faith when your god can actually come down and have tea with you (or, kick your butt if you don't behave exactly correctly).

While we, as gamers, can take the view that "maybe the gods of Eberron don't even exist" I don't think that's the case of the average Eberronian.

Like Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus (etc...) on Earth, I'm sure that religious Eberronians are confident that their god(s) exist and have a plan for them. Clerics of the Host absolutely believe that their powers come directly from their chosen god (or pantheon).

However, because the gods DON'T manifest physically, it leaves room on Eberron for atheists and agnostics who aren't insane or simply misguided.
Zombomaniac
03-05-07, 11:39 AM As far as the question about Favored Soul. This (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=797754) ("this" is the link) Thread is deticated to just that question.
:)
ArcanisTheOmnipotent
03-07-07, 06:36 AM Eberron is certainly much different from other DnD settings.

The six and the host would never walk on Eberron, but their ideals is what gives their divine followers their powers.

On the other hand the concept of ascension (or so...) seems to exists in Eberron as well.
Certain individuals (Silver Flame, Lady Vol, Dethless of Aeranal, Lord of blades) grant divine spells.
However it may still be that the ideals they represent actually grant the spells rather than the individuals themselves...
ArcTan
03-07-07, 02:33 PM Eberron is certainly much different from other DnD settings.

The six and the host would never walk on Eberron, but their ideals is what gives their divine followers their powers.

On the other hand the concept of ascension (or so...) seems to exists in Eberron as well.
Certain individuals (Silver Flame, Lady Vol, Dethless of Aeranal, Lord of blades) grant divine spells.
However it may still be that the ideals they represent actually grant the spells rather than the individuals themselves...

They themselves emphatically do *not* "grant" the spells in D&DG terms. The Lord of Blades has no direct power over whether a Cleric of the Lord of Blades gets spells for believing in his vision -- he has no knowledge of whether the Cleric is getting spells -- and he wouldn't even be able to strip the Cleric of his power if the Cleric's ideals started drifting from his own (remember that Clerics are not bound by their deities' alignments in Eberron).
Sereno
03-07-07, 03:48 PM They themselves emphatically do *not* "grant" the spells in D&DG terms. The Lord of Blades has no direct power over whether a Cleric of the Lord of Blades gets spells for believing in his vision -- he has no knowledge of whether the Cleric is getting spells -- and he wouldn't even be able to strip the Cleric of his power if the Cleric's ideals started drifting from his own (remember that Clerics are not bound by their deities' alignments in Eberron).

While the former is certainly true, we don't know for *sure* that the "active" deities of Eberron (like the LoB or the SF) couldn't revoke powers.

Who's to say that there's not some ritual or Eldritch Machine the the LoB could use to sever the spiritual link between himself and a follower who's not upholding his tenets?

Just because there's no direct evidence doesn't mean it's impossible....
ArcTan
03-07-07, 04:24 PM While the former is certainly true, we don't know for *sure* that the "active" deities of Eberron (like the LoB or the SF) couldn't revoke powers.

Who's to say that there's not some ritual or Eldritch Machine the the LoB could use to sever the spiritual link between himself and a follower who's not upholding his tenets?

Just because there's no direct evidence doesn't mean it's impossible....

Sure. You can houserule in anything so that it's possible.

However, the LoB doesn't grant powers in the first place. His stats make this explicitly impossible. Sure, he doesn't *have* to have his Five Nations stats, but these are supposed to be one of the many sets of stats he could have -- meaning that an interpretation of the LoBster that makes that set of stats impossible is an unlikely interpretation. And there's no way a Fighter/Artificer/Juggernaut build gains the ability to grant divine spells as a class ability.

The LoBster lacks Divine Rank and can't grant spells. This is simply a given. If someone prays to the Lord of Blades and gets clerical spellcasting from it, the one thing we know is that it can't have anything to do with the Lord of Blades himself, because he doesn't have that power. Any more than Erandis d'Vol does as a high-level lich spellcaster. Or any combination, however esoteric, of a human Paladin and a couatl would.
Sereno
03-07-07, 04:49 PM Sure. You can houserule in anything so that it's possible.

However, the LoB doesn't grant powers in the first place.

I'm not talking about *granting* the powers ... I agree that neither the LoB nor Erandis have the personal power to *grant* divine spellcasting.

I'm talking about *disrupting* power.

If the LoB were to find out that some so-called Cleric of the LoB was doing something with their divine powers that was directly impacting negatively on his plans that there *might* be some way he could disrupt the powers that he never actually granted in the first place.

Of course, he could always disrupt their powers by simply killing them. :)

But, I think some sort of ritual that leaves the former "follower" powerless would be very noir and very Eberron.
ArcTan
03-07-07, 04:57 PM I'm not talking about *granting* the powers ... I agree that neither the LoB nor Erandis have the personal power to *grant* divine spellcasting.

I'm talking about *disrupting* power.

If the LoB were to find out that some so-called Cleric of the LoB was doing something with their divine powers that was directly impacting negatively on his plans that there *might* be some way he could disrupt the powers that he never actually granted in the first place.

Of course, he could always disrupt their powers by simply killing them. :)

But, I think some sort of ritual that leaves the former "follower" powerless would be very noir and very Eberron.

...I sort of like the idea of some sort of evil thing you could do to take away a divine spellcaster's power. I don't agree that it would require the Lord of Blades to use this on one of his own Clerics -- it seems to me it'd work just as well on a Cleric of Dol Arrah or the Blood of Vol.

Because I don't really think that the Lord of Blades *has* an intrinsic connection to the people who gain clerical spellcasting from him. If the Lord of Blades publicly excommunicated one of his Clerics, that Cleric could just switch to being a Cleric of "The True Principles that the Fallible Lord of Blades Stands For" and lose nothing. (In fact, it's implied that this is what a lot of LoB Clerics are like anyway -- they seem kind of like a fringe minority rather than a large portion of the LoBster's followers, and it's said that a lot of them are Clerics of the Traveler in the Traveler's Artificer aspect, who simply see the LoB as a representation or emissary of the Traveler.)

The Cleric's power doesn't come from the LoB, but her own faith in the LoB, which the LoB himself has no direct control over at all.

Of course, if someone *does* see the LoB as the icon of their faith, the LoB could just do something or say something to make them lose that faith and poof, no power. In *most* cases, someone who was actually told "I renounce you" by the LoB probably would lose their faith and their power -- but they wouldn't *have* to, if they could reinterpret this event in such a way as to keep their core beliefs.
Daydreamer
03-14-07, 03:18 AM I know a friend of mine who is dming a different Eberron campagin under the assumption that the dark six are actually Certain powerful Rajahs that humans used to worship in the age of darkness.

Apparently he has some account of sovreign host thats pretty clever, but hes not sharing as thats the object of his campaing. (im thinking something to do with dragons-or even the dragons gods).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Witchcraft 03-04-07, 11:54 AM	I was in the local gaming store reading Faithes of Eberron. It was sadly in english so I had a tad of a trouble understanding what the book said. It seemed to me that gods in eberron have more or less a "spirtual feel", meaning they are "in everything" then having an acutal form. Unlike with the core DnD gods which are "real". Help!!!! Witchcraft
Nived 03-04-07, 12:08 PM	You are correct. While the myths of the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six often refer to them like they are people, or at least functioning individuals, particularly The Traveler, there is no proving they exist. In Greyhawk, The Realms, or Dragonlance the gods walk the world, they have personal contact with their followers, you an go meet one through the use of the commune spell. This isn't true in Eberron. The gods do not walk the face of Eberron, a commune spell will let you speak to a powerful outsider (angel or devil) that also worships your god devoutly but they, like you have never physically seen 'god'. Rather followers of the pantheons 'see' their gods in everything. FoE says its debatable how the Host and the Six came into being, they didn't create the world. They mearly are the embodiment of certain actions and concepts. Therefore every forgefire IS Onatar, Olladra is at every party when you raise a glass in toast, just as every destructive storm is the Devourerer, just as Dol Dorn resides in the arms of good men, just as The Mockery resides in the hearts of evil men. In Eberron, one would never see a god appear in the same way that Zues, or Odin would, wielding lightning and coming down from on high... rather, for believers, they see their gods all around them in everyday life.
Witchcraft 03-04-07, 12:22 PM	You are correct. While the myths of the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six often refer to them like they are people, or at least functioning individuals, particularly The Traveler, there is no proving they exist. In Greyhawk, The Realms, or Dragonlance the gods walk the world, they have personal contact with their followers, you an go meet one through the use of the commune spell. This isn't true in Eberron. The gods do not walk the face of Eberron, a commune spell will let you speak to a powerful outsider (angel or devil) that also worships your god devoutly but they, like you have never physically seen 'god'. Rather followers of the pantheons 'see' their gods in everything. FoE says its debatable how the Host and the Six came into being, they didn't create the world. They mearly are the embodiment of certain actions and concepts. Therefore every forgefire IS Onatar, Olladra is at every party when you raise a glass in toast, just as every destructive storm is the Devourerer, just as Dol Dorn resides in the arms of good men, just as The Mockery resides in the hearts of evil men. In Eberron, one would never see a god appear in the same way that Zues, or Odin would, wielding lightning and coming down from on high... rather, for believers, they see their gods all around them in everyday life. Ya!!! I can read english!!!! Anyone elses thoughts on the subject?
Magicianguy131 03-04-07, 12:25 PM	In deep thought Well then, couldnt you say that the Clerics worship a "concept" instead of a god? Also, how woudl Favoured Souls come into play? Paladins?
SSj3goblin 03-04-07, 01:08 PM	No, because to them their gods are real.
Kid SixXx 03-04-07, 01:24 PM	In Eberron, one would never see a god appear in the same way that Zues, or Odin would, wielding lightning and coming down from on high... rather, for believers, they see their gods all around them in everyday life. Well, the Silver Fire actually does have a physical manifestation & it's effect on the Speaker is pretty evident, but the call on whether the or not the Flame is actually "divine" is still anyone's call.
JulesCARV 03-04-07, 02:22 PM	Religion in Eberron isn't all that complicated. A worshipper of the Sovereign Host could cover the whole spectrum of views that you could find in the religious Jews, Christians, and other religious people you know. Some of them have a very literal faith that the Sovereigns are up there somewhere, in some plane that can't be accessed with plane shift. They actively intervene in the world, fighting against the Dark Six, and having a real and pervasive, albeit undetectable, influence. Some might have a more metaphorical faith -- believing that the gods are real, yes, but they aren't physical entities that you could go meet if only plane shift were more powerful: they exist throughout the world in everything. Some might want to believe, but secretly be agnostics who aren't so sure that they're real. Some might view gods as forces -- Dol Arrah is made up of all who fight for justice in a militant, active manner: righteous clerics of the Sovereign Host, paladins of the Silver Flame, archons in Shavarath, Kalashtar psions, all might be said to be small pieces of the corporate entity of "Dol Arrah." In short, there's no universal way of worshipping the gods. Some might take a conceptual, metaphorical view of the faith, but some might take it very literally -- just as literally as someone in Forgotten Realms, although such literalism depends on faith, not evidence. The fact is, the gods in Eberron may or may not be real. Neither us players in the metagame nor characters within the game know for sure. (well, us players in the metagame know that they're not real in the sense that everything in Eberron is part of a fictional world, but we don't know whether the gods are any less real than, say, Karrlakton or Queen Aurala) However, that doesn't mean that some in Eberron might not have a very real, literal faith -- just as people do here on Earth.
Nived 03-04-07, 03:28 PM	Well, the Silver Fire actually does have a physical manifestation & it's effect on the Speaker is pretty evident, but the call on whether the or not the Flame is actually "divine" is still anyone's call. In my explainations I tried to say 'the pantheons' as an excluder to the Flame and the Blood of Vol, and the Path of Light. Those religions are fundimentally different than the pantheonic religions of the Host and the Dark Six.
Sereno 03-05-07, 09:24 AM	The 'remoteness' of the Eberron deities (Silver Flame, excepted) actually make them feel more real to me than some of the religions of other gaming worlds. To me, religion is based on faith and there's no need for faith when your god can actually come down and have tea with you (or, kick your butt if you don't behave exactly correctly). While we, as gamers, can take the view that "maybe the gods of Eberron don't even exist" I don't think that's the case of the average Eberronian. Like Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus (etc...) on Earth, I'm sure that religious Eberronians are confident that their god(s) exist and have a plan for them. Clerics of the Host absolutely believe that their powers come directly from their chosen god (or pantheon). However, because the gods DON'T manifest physically, it leaves room on Eberron for atheists and agnostics who aren't insane or simply misguided.
Zombomaniac 03-05-07, 11:39 AM	As far as the question about Favored Soul. This (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=797754) ("this" is the link) Thread is deticated to just that question. :)
ArcanisTheOmnipotent 03-07-07, 06:36 AM	Eberron is certainly much different from other DnD settings. The six and the host would never walk on Eberron, but their ideals is what gives their divine followers their powers. On the other hand the concept of ascension (or so...) seems to exists in Eberron as well. Certain individuals (Silver Flame, Lady Vol, Dethless of Aeranal, Lord of blades) grant divine spells. However it may still be that the ideals they represent actually grant the spells rather than the individuals themselves...
ArcTan 03-07-07, 02:33 PM	Eberron is certainly much different from other DnD settings. The six and the host would never walk on Eberron, but their ideals is what gives their divine followers their powers. On the other hand the concept of ascension (or so...) seems to exists in Eberron as well. Certain individuals (Silver Flame, Lady Vol, Dethless of Aeranal, Lord of blades) grant divine spells. However it may still be that the ideals they represent actually grant the spells rather than the individuals themselves... They themselves emphatically do not "grant" the spells in D&DG terms. The Lord of Blades has no direct power over whether a Cleric of the Lord of Blades gets spells for believing in his vision -- he has no knowledge of whether the Cleric is getting spells -- and he wouldn't even be able to strip the Cleric of his power if the Cleric's ideals started drifting from his own (remember that Clerics are not bound by their deities' alignments in Eberron).
Sereno 03-07-07, 03:48 PM	They themselves emphatically do not "grant" the spells in D&DG terms. The Lord of Blades has no direct power over whether a Cleric of the Lord of Blades gets spells for believing in his vision -- he has no knowledge of whether the Cleric is getting spells -- and he wouldn't even be able to strip the Cleric of his power if the Cleric's ideals started drifting from his own (remember that Clerics are not bound by their deities' alignments in Eberron). While the former is certainly true, we don't know for sure that the "active" deities of Eberron (like the LoB or the SF) couldn't revoke powers. Who's to say that there's not some ritual or Eldritch Machine the the LoB could use to sever the spiritual link between himself and a follower who's not upholding his tenets? Just because there's no direct evidence doesn't mean it's impossible....
ArcTan 03-07-07, 04:24 PM	While the former is certainly true, we don't know for sure that the "active" deities of Eberron (like the LoB or the SF) couldn't revoke powers. Who's to say that there's not some ritual or Eldritch Machine the the LoB could use to sever the spiritual link between himself and a follower who's not upholding his tenets? Just because there's no direct evidence doesn't mean it's impossible.... Sure. You can houserule in anything so that it's possible. However, the LoB doesn't grant powers in the first place. His stats make this explicitly impossible. Sure, he doesn't have to have his Five Nations stats, but these are supposed to be one of the many sets of stats he could have -- meaning that an interpretation of the LoBster that makes that set of stats impossible is an unlikely interpretation. And there's no way a Fighter/Artificer/Juggernaut build gains the ability to grant divine spells as a class ability. The LoBster lacks Divine Rank and can't grant spells. This is simply a given. If someone prays to the Lord of Blades and gets clerical spellcasting from it, the one thing we know is that it can't have anything to do with the Lord of Blades himself, because he doesn't have that power. Any more than Erandis d'Vol does as a high-level lich spellcaster. Or any combination, however esoteric, of a human Paladin and a couatl would.
Sereno 03-07-07, 04:49 PM	Sure. You can houserule in anything so that it's possible. However, the LoB doesn't grant powers in the first place. I'm not talking about granting the powers ... I agree that neither the LoB nor Erandis have the personal power to grant divine spellcasting. I'm talking about disrupting power. If the LoB were to find out that some so-called Cleric of the LoB was doing something with their divine powers that was directly impacting negatively on his plans that there might be some way he could disrupt the powers that he never actually granted in the first place. Of course, he could always disrupt their powers by simply killing them. :) But, I think some sort of ritual that leaves the former "follower" powerless would be very noir and very Eberron.
ArcTan 03-07-07, 04:57 PM	I'm not talking about granting the powers ... I agree that neither the LoB nor Erandis have the personal power to grant divine spellcasting. I'm talking about disrupting power. If the LoB were to find out that some so-called Cleric of the LoB was doing something with their divine powers that was directly impacting negatively on his plans that there might be some way he could disrupt the powers that he never actually granted in the first place. Of course, he could always disrupt their powers by simply killing them. :) But, I think some sort of ritual that leaves the former "follower" powerless would be very noir and very Eberron. ...I sort of like the idea of some sort of evil thing you could do to take away a divine spellcaster's power. I don't agree that it would require the Lord of Blades to use this on one of his own Clerics -- it seems to me it'd work just as well on a Cleric of Dol Arrah or the Blood of Vol. Because I don't really think that the Lord of Blades has an intrinsic connection to the people who gain clerical spellcasting from him. If the Lord of Blades publicly excommunicated one of his Clerics, that Cleric could just switch to being a Cleric of "The True Principles that the Fallible Lord of Blades Stands For" and lose nothing. (In fact, it's implied that this is what a lot of LoB Clerics are like anyway -- they seem kind of like a fringe minority rather than a large portion of the LoBster's followers, and it's said that a lot of them are Clerics of the Traveler in the Traveler's Artificer aspect, who simply see the LoB as a representation or emissary of the Traveler.) The Cleric's power doesn't come from the LoB, but her own faith in the LoB, which the LoB himself has no direct control over at all. Of course, if someone does see the LoB as the icon of their faith, the LoB could just do something or say something to make them lose that faith and poof, no power. In most cases, someone who was actually told "I renounce you" by the LoB probably would lose their faith and their power -- but they wouldn't have to, if they could reinterpret this event in such a way as to keep their core beliefs.
Daydreamer 03-14-07, 03:18 AM	I know a friend of mine who is dming a different Eberron campagin under the assumption that the dark six are actually Certain powerful Rajahs that humans used to worship in the age of darkness. Apparently he has some account of sovreign host thats pretty clever, but hes not sharing as thats the object of his campaing. (im thinking something to do with dragons-or even the dragons gods).