Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gensuke626 06-23-07, 09:05 PM	Since alignments are so varied in Eberron, and little to nothing is as it seems, I was considering implementing a houserule for my Eberron games. I want to run it past these forums to get a feel for what people think about it. The biggest thing is I'd like the more experienced DMs to explain what they think the ramifacations of such a system would be. I decided to post this here since primarily the purpose of this style is to slightly baffle the detect good/evil spells. Here's how it works. The character's true alignment is his Demeanor. This side of the alignment coin tells us how the character generally behaves in a given situation. As far as we are concerned, Demeanor is Alignment in a traditional sense (Or at least, as it is described in the ECS). External Influence on the other hand, is an indicator of that character's career choices on his visible alignment. This operates like a Cleric's Aura, where a Chaotic Good Cleric who worships a lawful evil diety still registers as Lawful Evil to detect magic. Not everyone would have two alignments, But characters such as Warlocks and Dread Necromancers would be freed from their normal Alignment restrictions. Dread Necromancers would still Detect as Evil due to the large amounts of Negative energy they weild, and Warlocks would still detect as Chaotic and/or Evil (Depending entirely on who they draw their power from, ie a Silver Flame variant of the Warlock would register as Lawful and Good). That's the basics of the idea, with Barbarians also benefiting from this particular houserule (They never detect as Lawful). The problem I run into, is how to deal with Monks and Paladins. Paladins are easy enough for me to handle, I'll just impose the penalties they normally recieve from changing alignment when they violate the code of ethics of their religion, however I'm not certain what to make them ping as. I suppose I could simply allow the 3 variant Paladins so that each extreme has it's champion... Monks on the other hand, are something I can't quite wrap my head around. I see the need for a lawful demeanor on the basis that to attain high levels of Monk, one needs to be incredibly focused and disciplined, something that I see some chaotic characters having trouble with. I suppose I could simply do something similar to the paladins and claim there to be neutral and chaotic aligned temples for monks to train in...but I'm not sure if I like that Idea. What do you think? An idea worth expanding, or am I simply over thinking things.
Symar 06-23-07, 09:38 PM	So, basically this is if someone is an abnormal alignment considereing the base system but allowed in Eberron, it makes them ping on detect spells and the like as what the alignment would be if this weren't Eberron? I'm not even sure if that question made much sense.
gensuke626 06-23-07, 09:48 PM	I think it makes enough sense. What you said is the basic idea...sort of. It's more like, a person behaves in a certain way, and that's his alignment. It determines what sorts of magical items (if axiomaticly restricted) can use and other such alignment dependant effects. The External influences from Class and Diety choices determine what detect spells the character reacts to. For example, Randal is a NG Warlock who channels energy from Xoriat. Because of the energy he channels, he appears Chaotic and Evil to the appropriate detect spells, but if someone were to cast Circle of Protection against Good, Randal would be vulnerable to it's effects. Similarly, if someone were to cast CoP vs Evil, Randal would be unaffected. If everyone thinks I'm just spinning my wheels, please let me know. I'm not in the sanest condition at the moment.
AllWillFall2Me 06-23-07, 10:12 PM	Your example made it very clear to me. And I think that it's a very interesting idea. It could lead to some interesting situations. "What do you mean the guy throwing Hellfire ENJOYED the Holy Word?!" And it establishes the fluidity of alignment within Eberron. Now, as pertains your monk question, perhaps the three monk way could go best, or rather than having true separate classes, have the player choose from Variants. Ie, the monk class in the PHB is the Meditative Monk. A Variant would be the Purity of Impulse Monks. They are chaotic, and their beliefs state that impulses and gut feelings are the Cosmos and/or Gods trying to guide you. They receive a bonus on Initiative checks instead of a bonus against enchantments, as they Learn to Act Without Thinking, but remain susceptible to attempts to sway their minds.
Symar 06-23-07, 10:16 PM	I'm not in the sanest condition at the moment. You sure you're not channeling Xoriat? :D I think it's an interesting idea, and will definately put more of a twist on alignment than there already is. And fomr what I can see, it'll make any paladins less likey to drop a smite evil on anyone who shows up as one. They'd have to really make sure first. I'd also think under a system like this that a person who follows their own strict code (like a monk, and they'd be lawful) but is fighting against governments or organizations would show up as chaotic on the detect spells. But I'd think you would need more to happen than just showing up different. Like maybe in your example, the warlock still takes half damage from a smite or something, because he is channeling a source that's somewhat evil, even though he's not.
gensuke626 06-24-07, 04:57 PM	You sure you're not channeling Xoriat? :D I think it's an interesting idea, and will definately put more of a twist on alignment than there already is. And fomr what I can see, it'll make any paladins less likey to drop a smite evil on anyone who shows up as one. They'd have to really make sure first. I'd also think under a system like this that a person who follows their own strict code (like a monk, and they'd be lawful) but is fighting against governments or organizations would show up as chaotic on the detect spells. But I'd think you would need more to happen than just showing up different. Like maybe in your example, the warlock still takes half damage from a smite or something, because he is channeling a source that's somewhat evil, even though he's not. Ahh, and this is why I love the forums. People helping me to build ideas. @AllWillFall2Me - I like your idea for the Purity of Impulse monk, I may adapt that even if I don't fully implement the alignment rules. It has a very Tao feel to it. @Symar - I hope I'm not channeling Xoriat.:eek: I like the idea that the External alignment still affects how magic interacts with the character. My biggest concern at the moment is how I would handle such a sitation. Primanirly, It falls upon what to do with characters like Monks (Again). Dread Necromancers, Warlocks, and the like I would totally use that rule for...1/2 effectiveness of Smite Evil, CoP Vs Evil, ect. if they're not actually evil. Monks and Barbarians I'm not sure about...I think for myself I'd say that Barbarians don't get 1/2 effects and Monks only take 1/2 effects after they pick up their first (su) ability. With the character example you gave, it made me realize that a simple Detect switch wouldn't work... so here's generally what I propose as for the simple detect spells. Detect spells designed to identify beings with the same alignment as your Demeanor, register you as that alignment with a strength relative to your HD (ie. an Evil 4th level rogue registers to detect evil as a faintly evil creature) Detect spells designed to identify beings with the same alignment as the External influences, register you as that alignment with a strength relative to your class levels in HD. (ie. a NG 7th Level Warlock/ 4th level Artificer would register as a Faintly evil creature, despite the fact that he has 11 HD) The exception to this is Cleric, who progress through aura strength much quicker than any class. Classes who give off Cleric Like auras are also an exception to this rule. -Still brainstorming....
Symar 06-25-07, 07:26 PM	Perhaps 1/2 effect is too powerful, or it should be adjusted per effect. But it'll definately allow for subterfuge in a grand way (what do you mean that new initiate cleric is an imposter? he shows up good on my detect evil!). Don't detect spells generally work that way, with the scaling aura, anyway? You're just switching it around. Or, I guess it appears that the half warlock character only shows up half evil (barring any other influences) in your example there. I'm interested in how this all works out: perhaps once you get it figured out I'll present it to my DM for inclusion in our games. I don't really see why monks and barbarians would be exempt. Perhaps monks and bards have a naturally chaotic, Demeanor was it? And monks are naturally lawful. No matter the actual alignment. Under this system, a paladin who's falling but hasn't actually snapped yet could start to show up as chaotic or evil. What if the effect of off-alignment abilities were based off of some comparison between the external alignment and internal alignment. Like, if you're CG character started to show up as CE, it'd be some ratio bewteen how much CE he shows up and how CG he (normally) would show up. Would characters still show up according to their true, internal alignment when hit with the proper detect spells and whatnot? So they in fact can show up and be affected by multiple things?
gensuke626 06-27-07, 09:47 PM	Err...Let me start with the easiest question first. With this idea, a character wold show up to conflicting detect spells. For example, an 11th level NG Warlock who channels Xoriat would show up as a Moderate strength aura to Detect Evil, Chaos, and Good. In my Games, Clerics already do this due to their Aura class feature. So an 11th lvl CG Cleric of the Blood of Vol (Which is legal due to the ECS changes to alignment) would have a Moderate aura to Detect Good and Chaos, but he would have an Overwhelming aura for Detect Evil and Law. This is really just an extension of that to other classes where one's career choices would affect which detect spells the character responds to. The idea of having smites and other such effects operate at 1/2 strength against such beings was just an interesting idea. Generally speaking I try to keep new rules simple, so I figure if I do something like that I'd give it a blanket 1/2 effect or just ignore that addition all together, afterall that rule would just apply to people who often have Negative (or Positive) energy surgeing through their veins. The reason that Monks are exempt for a while is simple because the lower level monk abilities are merely facets of intense training. They require great levels of discipline to learn and master, but nothing outside of normal human variation. This said, I think I mentioned that once a Monk gains it's first (Su) ability, it becomes vulnerable to the 1/2 effects vs Law, since these supernatural abilities come from what are possibly divine or superhuman forces of law and discipline. Barbarians are exempt because they don't gain (Su) Class features as a part of being Non-lawful. Barbarian Rage comes close, but it's still an extraordinary ability. If that seems too lenient to you, might I suggest that the 1/2 effect applies to them when they are Raging? Aritficiers, Bards, Sorcerors, and Wizards make for much more complicated descisions. One the one hand, I would give the 1/2 evil effect outright to a Necromantic specialist wizard, but I see raw magic as a neutral energy. Artificers I might assign to be squarely in the 1/2 lawful area due to their incredibly focused way of using magic (Item creation and imbueing mundane items). That leaves me to wonder wheter it's fair or not to only assign something to a Necro specialist, when I honestly don't see the Evoker, the Diviner, the Abjurer, and the Transmuter as anything axiomatic. Likewise, I'm uneasy about assigning Bard and Sorc clearly Chaotic 1/2 effects when a Sorc has no alignment restriction, and bards are hardly devotees to Chaos.
ArcTan 06-28-07, 01:10 AM	...It sounds kind of unnecessary to me, but whatever. If you really want to play a Bard who's "really Lawful deep down inside", fine.
Kaladon7779 06-28-07, 08:18 AM	My group did something a little similar. We did alignments based off of your actions. Like example one player was Lawfull Evil, but unless he was commiting evil acts then detect evil didn't work on him. It worked out in most cases but all in all I rather enjoyed seeing my players play out there characters when other group members found out they were evil. It gives you the clash of good vs evil and how they have to co-op together. Besides its hard to play a Good align necromancer or have a necromancer with an army of raised corpses behind him and not radiate evil just becouse his motives at that time were not evil. That's just one example of when the alignment thing just wasn't working for us. And I gotta say i'd love to see somebody play a Lawfull Good Bard.
gensuke626 06-29-07, 08:03 PM	I think I got enough ideas for how I want to do this for my own campaign. Thanks goes out to everyone who contributed to the discussion.