Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thaliost 01-21-08, 12:07 PM	A confusion brought up this question. In Races of Eberron, Vulkoor is said to be equivalent to the Mockery from many a one's perspective, but in the Lolth-touched entry in MM4, it's said that most Eberron's drow revere the Fury. So which one is true? Has there been any errata for this?
OctaviusIII 01-21-08, 03:02 PM	I think a good rule of thumb is that, if there is a conflict between a setting book and a Monster Manual, go with the setting book. Granted, Races of Eberron is technically a *universal* book, but I'd say it goes higher on the accuracy if one is engaging in Eberron textual criticism.
eehamburg 01-21-08, 03:30 PM	We ignore the Monster Manual entries. And Vulkoor is not the only deity. furthermore, Vulkoor is stated that he could be an aspect. Not that he is. This leaves things open to interpretation. If you want Vulkoor to be separate, then keep him separate. Furthremore, there is no Lloth in Eberron.
Shiftkitty 01-21-08, 03:34 PM	I go by the Eberron accounting which has folks thinking that Vulkoor is an aspect of the Mockery, but as my Eberron campaign is very drow-centric, I've made him a deity in his own right. I don't think this gameworld has much of a canon to worry about. (Not that I pay attention to canon anyway...)
eehamburg 01-21-08, 03:36 PM	Eberron is made with anything dealing with deities to be in question. Do they exist? Could they exist? Is one part of another? All are circumspect. This leaves the answers to rely on faith and faith alone.
Hellcow 01-21-08, 04:30 PM	In Races of Eberron, Vulkoor is said to be equivalent to the Mockery from many a one's perspective, but in the Lolth-touched entry in MM4, it's said that most Eberron's drow revere the Fury. So which one is true? Neither. Both are oversimplifications. First, "most of Eberron's drow" don't share any beliefs. The Umbragen revere the source of shadow. The Sulatar follow the Promise of Fire. The Qaltiar drow consider Vulkoor the Scorpion to be simply one of the primal spirits of nature, worthy of reverence and respect, but far from the only one to be honored and emulated. Even among those who revere Vulkoor alone, Secrets of Xen'drik presents different paths followed by different tribes. So, first of all, Races of Eberron's statement that "Many drow believe that Vulkoor and the Mockery are one and the same" is a misinterpretation of previous data. Most drow have never heard of the Mockery, which is after all the Pyrinean title for the deity. It is certainly the case that some theologists of the Sovereign Host have asserted that Vulkoor's attributes (depending on which version of Vulkoor you're dealing with) - as a warrior god who espouses the use of poison and deception in battle - suggest that he's actually the Mockery, but at best the drow is likely to say "So what you're saying is that you know Vulkoor, but are afraid to speak his name? And why is it that you show him in the guise of a dragon or a flayed warrior, when all with eyes to see know him to be the spirit of the scorpion?" The novels The Shattered Land and The Gates of Night look at the Sulatar and Qaltiar drow. While these are simply two drow cultures, it does show the range of drow beliefs - and the Qaltiar's animistic approach shows that you can have drow who respect Vulkoor without making him the one and only deity. Secrets of Xen'drik also mentions the Sulatar and Umbragen... so "most drow" can be thrown out the window. "Most Sulatar", sure - but drow are a race, and when it comes to religion, it's culture that matters. Concerning the Monster Manual entry, it goes against much of what's said in other sources. For example, it claims that the drow were a separate race who lived underground and were never enslaved by the giants... while Secrets of Xen'drik and The Shattered Land suggest that the drow may have actually been created by the giants of the Sulat League to prey on other elves during the rebellion. While many of the Monster Manual blurbs are interesting, a lot of them directly contradict material in core Eberron sourcebooks. IIRC, MMIII has a entry that justifies a creature as being created as a weapon in the wars between orc and elf... two races that have never had any significant conflict in Eberron. So if you like a Monster Manual idea, feel free to use it - but as the others say, all of those entries should be considered as inspiration as opposed to reliable fact.
Shiftkitty 01-21-08, 06:04 PM	Eberron is made with anything dealing with deities to be in question. Do they exist? Could they exist? Is one part of another? All are circumspect. This leaves the answers to rely on faith and faith alone. And the DM...:) Hellcow Just so we're clear, since you're the leading authority on Eberron, when I refer to the drow of my Eberron campaign, I'm usually referring to the particular tribe the PCs are from. I based them on a combination of southwestern American Indian cultures with a healthy shot of "Dunmer" from the Morrowind video game. I gave them Vulkoor as their god because I think scorpions are cool. You've made me want to read those novels! I'm always looking for spices to toss into the recipe.
Zippis 01-21-08, 06:44 PM	And the DM...:) ... I gave them Vulkoor as their god because I think scorpions are cool. You've made me want to read those novels! I'm always looking for spices to toss into the recipe. a little bit offtopic ... Just finished reading those novels yesterday :) I think that those two mentioned (The Shattered Land and The Gates of Night) would be (are) great source for many "drow characters" in Eberron ... two different approches to the race, most playes could find what they are looking for from flavor and mechanics points of view (powerful characters, described strong race/class powers, religion, artefacts, ideas, ways of life ...) they reminded me american indians ... may be not so much north americans but rather middle or south americans, with their jungle-life, talking and listening to "nature spirits" or "greater spirits" ... and very different culture. In many situations they can see exactly the same thing what we are able to see but their understanding and "vocabulary" could be very different ... also in gaming there could be many "misunderstandings" in mixed drow-nondrow parties based on different cultures. well, scorpions are definetly cool, snakes were everywhere before, but I would like to see a mighty bull-frog warrior with BIG club, annoying roars and powerful leaping attacks ;)
Thaliost 01-21-08, 07:22 PM	Neither. Both are oversimplifications. Thank you, Hellcow. This is really appreciated. That said, since I may not be able to spend enough time on the novels, I guess I'll have to figure out details thru this path on my own. :D
Hellcow 01-21-08, 07:25 PM	That said, since I may not be able to spend enough time on the novels, I guess I'll have to figure out details thru this path on my own. :D If you're looking for sourcebook material, I'd take what's provided in Secrets of Xen'drik over RoE and MM. This also touches on the range of cultures, such as the Sulatar and Umbragen.
Thaliost 01-21-08, 07:42 PM	If you're looking for sourcebook material, I'd take what's provided in Secrets of Xen'drik over RoE and MM. This also touches on the range of cultures, such as the Sulatar and Umbragen. Thanks again. That's great. I must have missed this part last time I was going thru it.
OctaviusIII 01-21-08, 07:51 PM	Heh... forgot about SoX, which is highest on the hierarchy of "canon".
Shiftkitty 01-21-08, 09:38 PM	they reminded me american indians ... may be not so much north americans but rather middle or south americans, with their jungle-life, talking and listening to "nature spirits" or "greater spirits" ... and very different culture. In many situations they can see exactly the same thing what we are able to see but their understanding and "vocabulary" could be very different ... also in gaming there could be many "misunderstandings" in mixed drow-nondrow parties based on different cultures. Central and South American tribes would have been a logical choice, but I wanted to work with a culture I knew more about. Having lived with Apaches, Navajo, and Hopi as neighbors (the "bad" side of town in Prescott, Arizona, if you consider barbecues, sledding down hills, and skipping rocks across the river to be juvenile delinquent behavior), I was more familiar with the mindset. It took a bit of a wrassle to extricate the culture from the high desert and place it in a jungle. Aside from the obvious environment change, they carried over nicely. The shamans still look for omens in the world around them, commune with nature spirits, and the sighting of a scorrow is considered a good omen, and the sighting of a clawborn scorrow is cause for a party. (The Menzo drow don't care, as long as the girls get topless...;) ) I use designs and decor from the southwest tribes, but unless it's ceremonial, the clothing styles just don't work in the jungle. It's hot, it's humid, it's steamy, so break out the loincloths! (Antroos, a Menzo drow, accidentally got a good view of Xen'drik drow warrior junk when Gennex's father bent over to pick up a spear...:eek: Poor boy was traumatized for turns...) The worst language/cultural barrier the party came up against was being stranded in Sharn. Gennex preferred to remain in their room in the inn, although he couldn't understand why they didn't just make a shelter in a canyon (alley). Paying for food when you could hunt it for yourself was an insult, but he did have to admit the roast beef tasted better than the rat he killed and cooked earlier.* The Menzo drow also had to explain to him that he shouldn't drink from that stream running down the middle of the street. However, with no concept of "private property", when they were on the run he was able to think unconventionally enough and take paths that most "civilized" people don't think about, such as through kitchens, apartments, public restrooms, etc. (I think most people, even when on the run, often are so conditioned to the idea of private property that only the truly desperate bolt through a stranger's house as away to elude their pursuers.) Fortunately, Gomph and Antroos, being from Menzoberranzan, knew enough about civil behavior to smooth things out. They were just sick of being stared at. Not many drow wander too far from Xen'drik, it appears! But to return somewhat to topic, the Menzo drow in my campaign are quite happy with Vulkoor and wouldn't believe he had anything to do with Lolth. ("They say he actually gives a damn!") They're supposed to have been reporting back to Amandrucul in Til Asperna on the state of things in Xen'drik, but so far the last report he received was the first one. All it said was "The girls! They'll talk to you! They'll really talk to you! And they don't care if you talked to them first! They smile, they're nice, they don't whip you,... we'll get back to you later." *I actually surprised the group by having a roast prepared. I knew it was going to be a long session, so we sort of LARPed the dinner scene. Hey, my husband and I were hungry!
Hellcow 01-22-08, 04:09 AM	Off-topic alert... II knew it was going to be a long session, so we sort of LARPed the dinner scene. Hey, my husband and I were hungry! I like the occasional LARP/tabletop crossover. Last year I was running an Over the Edge campaign with a total of 18 players (split into multiple groups). Eventually they all made a connection with the same patron, so I had them over for "brunch" at her manor, making a minor LARP of the affair. The goal was to get all the players to know each other so I could easily mix and match players within the groups, but it was also a fun shift in style... especially in Over the Edge, where some of the characters were fairly unusual (the cast list for the campaign included not one but two talking cats, a terminator in teddy bear form, a psychotic cabbage patch doll, and of course, Jan Brady).
Edymnion 01-23-08, 09:11 AM	Heh... forgot about SoX, which is highest on the hierarchy of "canon".Heh, more like the only "canon" on the list. ;)
Gurv 01-24-08, 09:14 AM	The greatest thing about Eberron religion is that no one knows, as a fact, that the gods really exist. Divine power might come from these mythic figures, or it might not. As the DM, you can decide whether the gods are real or not. I suggest that DM's don't decide. Leave the question completely unanswered, and present players with irrefutable evidence for both cases. Whether Vulkoor is considered the Mockery or the Fury doesn't matter. The drow don't care whether the Khorvairian's worship the same god by a different name, or a different god entirely. The followers of the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six likely believe that the drow have simply discovered the power of the Mockery. This is completely academic, in every sense of the phrase.
Thaliost 01-24-08, 01:42 PM	Yes, I like it this way. Everyone chooses to worship or not, but in the end, no one can answer what the Gods really are. Anime-like, this tone often times lead to good stories.