Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cbradshaw007 02-04-07, 11:23 AM	It seems that everytime I go magic item crafting my head hurts. Currently my Artificer is a 4th level Dragonwrought Kobold. My bonus feat selection is Extrodinary Artisan. When crafting an item for myself I want to save as much gold as possible. In this case I would make an item for Artificer class only to get a 30% discount on the cost. I already get a 25% discount on the cost with Extrodinary artisan. I have to assume this stacks. The real question is am I adding the two percents together then calculating the cost or taking each one out seperately? Example 1: Base Cost: 4000 gp Cost: 2000 gp Extrodinary Artisan Bonus: 1500 gp Restricted to Class Discount: 1050 gp Eample 2: Base Cost: 4000 gp Cost: 2000 gp Both added together before calculating discount: 900 gp There is 150 gp in difference and that will add up with higher levels.
law 02-04-07, 11:39 AM	You do the 30% first sine only you can use it. Then you apply the feat for an nother 25%.
Cabral 02-04-07, 11:53 AM	To get the benefits of both discounts, you would multiply the cost by 70% (100-30) and then by 75% (100-25). The result is 52.5% (a 47.5% discount). However, it's very rare that such a bonus is applicable. You should never apply it to an item, restricting it to the creator or intended user. In other words, if you are, for example making a cloak of charisma +2 to be worn by your character, you should never make it artificer only to save money. You would never make a +x sword that was fighter only to save the fighter some money. It's not a restriction. In fact, if the item is taken away from you, it's a boon as your opponent likely can't use it. If an existing item has a specific class requirement, to create that item, you would just multiply the published gp price by 75%. Btw, you likely know this, but just in case: The extraordinary artisan feat does not affect the XP or time to create the item. XP and time are based on the price without extraordinary artisan's discount.
Edymnion 02-04-07, 12:15 PM	You should ask your DM first. I know that I, as a DM, do not allow you to get discounts on crafting price for these sorts of restrictions. The discount only comes out on final market price, in my games. If you restrict it so that it can only be used by human artificers with the mark of making that have brown hair, green eyes, a mole on their butt, named Bob, then it really isn't one single bit less useful to you if you happen to be a human artificer named Bob with all those traits. It doesn't take you any less amount of skill or magical energy to make it, logically it should take MORE to put those kind of safety restrictions in it (since nobody can take your uber weapon away from you and use it against you). So, again, ask your DM. If he's like me, you could be going through a lot of trouble only to have him flat out tell you no.
RogueElement 02-04-07, 07:50 PM	Creating a "Kobold Only" item would make sense to get the discount though. But as Edy said, any more specific than that and it should cost you more since you're basically adding security features to the item. (As a software developer, I would charge you more for added security measures)
Cabral 02-04-07, 07:58 PM	I disagree. If the DM wants to make a kobold only item, he can choose to apply the discount. A player making a kobold only item for a kobold should not take such liberties. As you say, you should pay more for security features, not less.
aelryinth 02-04-07, 10:52 PM	30% is the STEEPEST discount you can get. The item which is the showcase for it is the holy avenger...an Item which is probably NOT usable by the maker....has the STRICTEST alignment definition to it...and a Singular class limitation. So, no, you don't get 30% off. For a kobold only item, I'd give you at most 10% off, and perhaps not even that. Racial restrictions are a GOOD thing, from the point of the race making them. Why should you save money that way? But, in such circumstances, you multiply the bonuses, then deduct. So, if you were making a 10% off item, you'd reduce the base price by 10%, and then make that the basis of all your further artisan calculations. ===Aelryinth
Ryoden_Anariavas 02-05-07, 09:06 AM	the 30% off for class/alignment restriction is a reduction of the base cost of the item. So your 4000 gp item would sell for 2800 "out on the street". to determin the cost to create this item with the feat thrown in, you then take the base cost of the class-resticted item (2800) and reduce the cost by 25%, 2100GP. the cost for you to create this item would then be half of that number, 1050GP. However like said before the cost in time and exp.points would still be based off of the "base" price of 2800GP. three days and 112 xp. not three days and 84 xp. I will also say that the 30% off sidebar rule should only be used in very rare and special curcumstances, and not to outfit the party at a reduced cost. the holy avenger mentioned above is a good example. Its rather silly to have a +1 longsword that can only be used by fighters. Imagine how you would feel if the loot you got always came up "useable by such and such monster only".
Elderich 02-06-07, 02:56 PM	It seems that everytime I go magic item crafting my head hurts. There is 150 gp in difference and that will add up with higher levels.ok. Firstly remember this is multiplication, so order does no matter. So you have a 50% off for magical item cost being 50% of retail. (not counting non magical cost) and you have 25% off for your feat And you have 30% off for your restriction. Little tricky part here. we have got to keep straight if we are talking about the amount of the discount OR the actual cost of the item. I think it is simpler to think about cost, so you want to know how your discounts effect your cost. Thus... 50% discount means 50% of cost 25% means 75% of cost 30% means 70% of cost Now we can just multiply the cost reductions. .5*.75*.70=26.25, which means you pay 26.25% of retail. you have to watch this because some magical items have funny pricing and costing. you can PM me if you want more information.
cbradshaw007 02-07-07, 07:50 PM	I think it is simpler to think about cost, so you want to know how your discounts effect your cost. Thus... 50% discount means 50% of cost 25% means 75% of cost 30% means 70% of cost Now we can just multiply the cost reductions. .5*.75*.70=26.25, which means you pay 26.25% of retail. Thank you for an answer, not a complaint about using the rules created in the game. I discussed this with my DM and he had the same comments about the multipication. I don't plan on making every item specific to a class or alignment. But when I do it will be clear what the cost is.
Cabral 02-07-07, 10:15 PM	Thank you for an answer, not a complaint about using the rules created in the game. Those DM pricing guidelines are guidelines, not rules. Despite being non-rules, they can still be abused. Usually, by players. Taking a 30% discount because it can be used only by the one person who will be using it is unbalanced. To quote the Hero RPG, "a limitation that doesn't limit the character is not a limitation and isn't worth any points." If your DM is okay with it, then by all means, have fun. However, don't villify others for pointing out your shenanigans. Also, don't complain if your DM pulls the same stunt on you. Remember, a {insert class that none of the PCs have} only device can't be used by the party because Use Magic Device only allows emulation of class features, not levels. :evillaugh
Elderich 02-08-07, 07:05 PM	here i was hoping we could have a nice discussion. A guideline is a rule. While pricing, like everything else in the game, is subject to the PLAYERS of the game approval, it is still a rule. Pointing out to someone that this particular guideline is sometimes viewed as "Munchkin"ish is one thing. Screaming at them that you do not like there "shenanigans" is just out of line. As a DM I have no problem with the discount. My players use it all the time. As a group we have agreed that we like it, so the bad guys use it too.
Cabral 02-09-07, 01:42 AM	here i was hoping we could have a nice discussion. Then I'll assume you just had a rough day. The magic item pricing guidelines are guidelines, not rules. If they were rules, I could buy rings of true strike. They are not "reach level 3 take a feat". They help you create new magic items and I think they should be use, primarily by the DM, but used. If you take offense to my calling the practice of using those guidelines to get bargain basement magic items "shenanigans", allow me to rephrase it. The practice of using the pricing guidelines to discount your personal magic items through veiled or misguided use of those guidelines creates a situation where you are using the guidelines as they were not intended to get a discount in exchange for a limitation that you know will not hamper you. It's rather preachy, I preferred "here's how it works, but you shouldn't do it and here's why." So, since you pushed the topic, let's look at the result of widespread usage of the discount. If a character makes a 1000 gp that only he can use (say his magic armor), he pays 700 gp, but he's not limited in any way by that limitation. He now has a 1,000 gp item for 700 gp. Expand this practice to all magic items (hey, why not?) and suddenly the characters' effective wealth is 42.9% higher. Not anywhere near the abuse possible various loopholes in actual rules exploited on the CharOp boards, but still an abuse. (well, less than that because the limited discount doesn't affect mundane items nor the mundane component of magic items.) If you're go for that sort of thing, why not just increase the PC's wealth? Maybe by 25% - 40%? So, as I said, don't vilify others for illuminating what is commonly a shady or ill-informed practice. And for clarity: 1) It is shady when it used to "pull the wool over the DM's eyes" by appearing to be using a run of the mill rule. 2) It's ill-informed when the person using the discount without realizing that it's being used inappropriately. (And may cause tension in a group if the DM thinks it's case 1) 3) It's neither when, well, when neither of the above are true, such as in Elderich's campaign, apparently. Honestly, it sounds like, from his response, cbradshaw007 is trying to deceive the DM. If I am mistaken, I apologize. If it is the case, be wary. Such behavior can be the source of a lot of problems in a group, particularly if "caught". If you don't agree with any of the rest of this post, I hope you at least agree with that last sentiment.
Elderich 02-09-07, 01:48 PM	The magic item pricing guidelines are guidelines, not rules.A guideline is a rule. Look it up if you wish, but that is the definition. These rules make clear that one should be careful how custom magic items may impact your campaign. Several books have gone into how one may need to play with the pricing by examine the game effect. Sometimes the price goes up, sometimes down depending on the game effect.If they were rules, I could buy rings of true strike. They are not "reach level 3 take a feat". They help you create new magic items and I think they should be use, primarily by the DM, but used.You may buy items of true strike. The question is the price that would make it fair and balanced in the campaigns you play in. One of my players has a ring of true strike, mostly because I had a similar discussion with another player. The ring is balanced and fair and fun in my campaign.If you take offense to my calling the practice of using those guidelines to get bargain basement magic items "shenanigans", allow me to rephrase it.I took offense at you calling someone else names. It is beneath you, and does not help the player.The practice of using the pricing guidelines to discount your personal magic items through veiled or misguided use of those guidelines creates a situation where you are using the guidelines as they were not intended to get a discount in exchange for a limitation that you know will not hamper you.nice rephrase. I might have put a little more "I am assuming your innocent. You should be aware of this thing that some trixy types try to get away with." in it and a little less "You weren't trying to screw the people you are playing with are you?"So, since you pushed the topic, let's look at the result of widespread usage of the discount. If a character makes a 1000 gp that only he can use (say his magic armor), he pays 700 gp, but he's not limited in any way by that limitation. He now has a 1,000 gp item for 700 gp. Expand this practice to all magic items (hey, why not?) and suddenly the characters' effective wealth is 42.9% higher. Not anywhere near the abuse possible various loopholes in actual rules exploited on the CharOp boards, but still an abuse. (well, less than that because the limited discount doesn't affect mundane items nor the mundane component of magic items.) If you're go for that sort of thing, why not just increase the PC's wealth? Maybe by 25% - 40%? So, as I said, don't vilify others for illuminating what is commonly a shady or ill-informed practice. And for clarity: 1) It is shady when it used to "pull the wool over the DM's eyes" by appearing to be using a run of the mill rule. 2) It's ill-informed when the person using the discount without realizing that it's being used inappropriately. (And may cause tension in a group if the DM thinks it's case 1) 3) It's neither when, well, when neither of the above are true, such as in Elderich's campaign, apparently.Well said. I honestly think this kind of math and game effects should be captured. May I suggest you PM this to Edy to see if he might put it in his Artificer guide V3? Now in my campaign I equip the BBEG with custom equipment, reducing it's value by the amount of the discount benefit to my players. They think it is fun, and they also have a moral dilemma of selling it.Honestly, it sounds like, from his response, cbradshaw007 is trying to deceive the DM. If I am mistaken, I apologize. If it is the case, be wary. Such behavior can be the source of a lot of problems in a group, particularly if "caught". If you don't agree with any of the rest of this post, I hope you at least agree with that last sentiment.I totally agree with all of this last part. But I do not KNOW the OP is trying to get away with something. So I post like he is innocent, and warn of the problem. Next time I see a post like this I would love to be able to refer to the math you have posted. It is not for me to assume to tell you anything Cabral. And I do not assume the OP was being trixy.
Edymnion 02-10-07, 03:35 PM	May I suggest you PM this to Edy to see if he might put it in his Artificer guide V3?Nah, the guide is aimed essentially at the players. A DM that is stupid enough to allow anyone to pile on a bunch of restrictions like this is a totally seperate problem from someone not knowing how the Artificer works.
Cabral 02-10-07, 05:52 PM	Nah, the guide is aimed essentially at the players. Actually, a guide, or section of a guide aimed at DMs (focusing on what an artificer's impact on his campaign, special considerations for a party with an artificer, and perhaps advice for spotlighting an artificer player) would be very useful. After all, you only get the "full artificer experience" if both the DM and player know what's going on. Maybe we should start a new thread to collect DM advice concerning artificers?
cbradshaw007 02-11-07, 04:03 PM	Honestly, it sounds like, from his response, cbradshaw007 is trying to deceive the DM. If I am mistaken, I apologize. If it is the case, be wary. Such behavior can be the source of a lot of problems in a group, particularly if "caught". If you don't agree with any of the rest of this post, I hope you at least agree with that last sentiment. I see my reputation proceeds me. Oh wait, I don't have that type of reputation. I simply asked what the flow and math was to reslove an item creation. Just to be clear on this. I am in constant communication with my GM. I provide a list of items that I have made and who gets them. He has approved me creating items to this degree. We have also discussed the good and bad abut doing so. The funny thing is he can but probably won't do this against us. The reason for that is that out of random treasure generation has yet to provide us anything the party can use. I am not tring to munchkin but I am trying to understand the rules/options available to me. I have made several items, some use this benefit some don't. Example, Amulet of Health +2, I made this normal so that if I find or make another type of item that fits that slot, i can give it to another party member. I do have cases where the other party members have asked for specific items to work only for them for role playing aspecs. Thank you for the help that has given been in the replies. Chris Bradshaw
Cabral 02-11-07, 06:17 PM	I see my reputation proceeds me. Oh wait, I don't have that type of reputation. I simply asked what the flow and math was to reslove an item creation. To which I answered fully and gave a warning about its appropriateness. And, it was not your question that made me suspicious of your intentions, it was your response: Thank you for an answer, not a complaint about using the rules created in the game. The idea that rules should be obeyed without being open to discussion of their merits, flaws, and appropriateness was a red flag. Just to be clear on this. I am in constant communication with my GM. I provide a list of items that I have made and who gets them. He has approved me creating items to this degree. We have also discussed the good and bad abut doing so. Wonderful. As it should be. I'm glad I was mistaken. :D I do have cases where the other party members have asked for specific items to work only for them for role playing aspecs. In my game, I still wouldn't give the full 30% discount for a character only item for roleplaying reasons. I might give a 10% discount. I might be inclined to give the full 30% discount if I don't think the party is being abusive and are asking the crafter to make a lot of items, particularly if it's a character who has no way to mitigate the XP drain like an artificer does. Well, good luck to you.
Larates 02-12-07, 09:38 AM	Frankly also using these type of additional percentage multipliers also allows things to be created in games where finances are not extremely high. A bit of setup from where this comment comes from... As a 13th level artificer in a campaign that has been going since the release of the campaign book, I have for myself created: 1 circlet of Persuasion 1 wand of phantom steed at 8th level 2-3 wands of cure light wounds at 1st level 1 4HD Iron Defender ... a very modest item list for an artificer of my level. We are in downtime right now, and I presently have 17k saved to craft items. The campaign is not a high money game. I also have an additional house rule from my GM where I have to research any non-standard magic items at a cost of 1kgp per spell level associated with the item along with 1 week per spell level researching how to make the item. I have the feats for reducing money and XP for item creation. I have yet to use the 30% for a class/race specific savings. However I can tell you with my limited finances, I am greatly tempted. In campaigns where money flows free and blastifiers dont flinch at blowing charges off their insanely priced wands because they know that a little bit of downtime and the pouch of neverending gold and they can have another, I agree that this does seem a bit cheesey. I think that this is a rule that should be discussed between a player and a GM as to its usage, if the GM is fine with it, so be it. If not, then that is the ruling of the GM.
Elderich 02-13-07, 03:48 PM	Maybe we should start a new thread to collect DM advice concerning artificers?Count me in. There are a bunch of really good threads already, like Persistent Spells (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=648019) And a bunch of others. Lets do it. Should it be in the What's a DM to Do?" forum (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24)?
Cabral 02-16-07, 08:22 AM	If Edymnion doesn't mind linking it from the main guide, the section doesn't matter and that section may likely get the most/best reactions. :) Should it be a for DMs guide (ie, base post that is updated with advice), or just a discussion thread?
Elderich 02-20-07, 11:25 AM	If Edymnion doesn't mind linking it from the main guide, the section doesn't matter and that section may likely get the most/best reactions. :) Should it be a for DMs guide (ie, base post that is updated with advice), or just a discussion thread?I like discussion threads to get the mind lubricated. But a summary guide is readable, so that is also good. Lets do both. Just tell me what do you want me to do.
Sir Elton 02-24-07, 01:14 PM	It seems that everytime I go magic item crafting my head hurts. Currently my Artificer is a 4th level Dragonwrought Kobold. My bonus feat selection is Extrodinary Artisan. When crafting an item for myself I want to save as much gold as possible. In this case I would make an item for Artificer class only to get a 30% discount on the cost. I already get a 25% discount on the cost with Extrodinary artisan. I have to assume this stacks. The real question is am I adding the two percents together then calculating the cost or taking each one out seperately? Example 1: Base Cost: 4000 gp Cost: 2000 gp Extrodinary Artisan Bonus: 1500 gp Restricted to Class Discount: 1050 gp Eample 2: Base Cost: 4000 gp Cost: 2000 gp Both added together before calculating discount: 900 gp There is 150 gp in difference and that will add up with higher levels. Here Use these rules ITEM CREATION Item creation for d20 games follows much the pattern as for BESM d20 games. 1. The character designs what item he or she intends to create. 2. The specific spells needed to create the effect are defined. 3. The item’s DC is calculated. 4. The character makes an Item Creation check. Actually creating the item works in much the same way as casting a spell, but tends to consume more time, materials, and XP due to the high DCs involved. Note that no item may be created with a Caster Level higher than that of its creator.
Cabral 02-25-07, 07:31 PM	Here Use these rules If you are going to suggest 3rd party rules, could you please give a reference to avoid confusion. If the rules are OGL, then posting a more complete snippet would be helpful.