Karrnathi undead, how? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Karrnathi undead, how? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dragoloth
04-23-07, 01:01 AM Does it say anywhere how karrnathi undead are made? Massproducing intelligent undead for an army is what I'm after. I would loke to know if it is a new spell or a special process if it even tells anywhere. Any help is appreciated and thank you in advance.
Dragom
04-23-07, 01:38 AM It doesn't really say anywhere.

I think you just need some Karnathi corpses of troops who died in the name of Karnath and treat them alchimically before using the standard raise dead spell. Though some may raise as normal zombies and skeletons if they did indeed die cursing Karnath for getting them killed in what they thought was a pointless exercise.

So with 50 corpses harvested from a random battlefield in the Mournland (where luckily they have not decayed at all) maybe 10 will rise as proper Karnathi undead. Though you would still be paying the full time and gold costs.

Some battlefields would yield higher or lower results. Depending on how the troops where commanded and how they fell.

Example a) The troops where force marched for days by a green commander and fell into a simple trap that smacked of betrayal long before ever reaching the first combat might fail to produce a single Karnathi undead.

Example b) The troops where granted special dispensation by a beloved comander to defend a helpless Cyran town from Valenar raiders in the wake of a major victory may produce nearly 100% Karnathi undead.

But it's kind of worth wile for actual intelligent undead that can perform more complex tasks and make tactical decisions in combat.

75gp each for the onyx stones and I would guess 100-200 gp each for the Alchemical bath
JulesCARV
04-23-07, 02:26 AM If you're a patriotic Karrnathi necromancer who's been let in on the secrets of Karrnathi undead creation, (DM-discretion roleplaying requirements) and the corpse you're animating was a patriotic Karrnathi warrior, I'd say that you could manage with CL 12+ Create Undead. After all, Karrnathi undead are CR 3, same as ghasts, who are also CR 3 and can be raised with CL 12+ Create Undead. Bear in mind that these freshly-created Karrnathi undead would not have the nice equipment that the ones in the book have, like half-plate armor, masterwork longswords, and such, unless they died wearing such equipment. You'd have to supply that yourself.
Nived
04-23-07, 02:46 AM This question comes up from time to time. Keith has answered it on his website http://www.bossythecow.com in his "Ask the Dreaming Dark" sections. For grins I'll repost it here.

September 14. 2006

This week, we take a look at the wonderful world of undead.

Q: I was wondering exactly what game mechanics go into creating the Karrnathi skeletons and zombies...or if you can at least give an estimate on their 'production rate'?

If you look at the ECS, the following statements are made about both forms of Karrnathi undead:

"It (bones/flesh) have been treated alchemically to make them more resilient. Karrnathi (skeletons/zombies) are created from the remains of elite Karrnathi soldiers slain in battle."

There are two points here: the treatment of the remains and the nature of the soldier. I'll start with the second point… the fact that the undead must be made from an elite Karrnathi soldier slain in battle. Some people have suggested that if Karrnath was smart, it would just kill all its soldiers and raise them as Karrnathi undead, because the undead are more effective than a typical first level warrior. But that's just the point: a typical first level warrior couldn't be used to create a Karrnathi skeleton; only "elite" soldiers can serve this purpose. Personally, I would require the subject to have been at least third level in life in order to be eligible to be raised as a Karrnathi undead… and he does need to have died in battle, fighting for his country.

It's important to understand that Karrnathi undead are not the people they were in life. It's not a cheap substitute for raise dead. Every Karrnathi skeleton has the same skills, and like normal skeletons, cannot advance in hit dice. Despite being intelligent and aware, their consciousness is not human. Most priests say that the Karrnathi undead are vessels for the fighting spirit of Karrnath itself, and this would explain both the need for the body to be that of a skilled soldier and death in battle; the body must be spiritually prepared to rise as an undead warrior.

Of course, spiritual preparations are only part of the challenge of creating Karrnathi undead; there's also that alchemical treatment. Normally, the animate dead spell requires components worth 25 gp/hit die. For Karrnathi undead, I'd double that cost to take these alchemical salves into account, and personally say that the bodies are normally soaked in these substances. This would mean that a normal priest or necromancer couldn't raise a Karrnathi undead ON the battlefield, because the body has to be prepared.

The obvious exception to this point is the bone knight, who has the spell-like ability to create Karrnathi undead (and spell-like abilities ignore components). However, even in the case of the bone knight, I would insist that the targeted corpses be those of elite Karrnathi soldiers – not peasants, not green conscripts, and certainly not enemies of the nation.

So in terms of speed of production, the key issue is that in order to create a Karrnathi undead soldier, you first need a dead elite soldier – and if those soldiers are doing their jobs, their corpses will be in short supply.

Bear in mind that not every undead soldier in the armies of Karrnath is Karrnathi undead; they certainly employ traditional skeletons and zombies in addition to the sentient elites.
Dragoloth
04-23-07, 12:24 PM Thank you all for your posts. I forgot about the bone knights ability to animate karrnathi undead.
UnderworldLord
04-23-07, 03:09 PM Which still requires the same stipulations from keith's post.
Vharuck
04-23-07, 04:17 PM Seeing as how the technique of creating these elite skeletons and zombies came from Erandis d'Vol, I think it has nothing to do with the nationalism of the corpse. It's probably a very old Qabalrin magic ritual.
Just another user
04-23-07, 06:16 PM Seeing as how the technique of creating these elite skeletons and zombies came from Erandis d'Vol, I think it has nothing to do with the nationalism of the corpse. It's probably a very old Qabalrin magic ritual.

I see the nationalism of the corpse being a part of the ritual, either something spiritual, like " the soul (or whatever is that remain in the corpse) is still willing to fight for Karmath) or something more "concrete" i.e the oath that Karmathi soldiers swear when they start the service is actually a part of the ritual that willl trasform them in undead, like a clause that says, "yes, I'm willing to fight for Karmath even after I'm dead" and that will make of them some stronger and smarter when they are animated.
UnderworldLord
04-23-07, 07:59 PM Nationality might play a part in the spell as the soul may have to be willing to let its corpse go for the spell to work. We only know that it requires these things, not why.
Fabius Maximus
05-02-07, 12:57 PM There are the Bone and Corpse Creature templates in the Book of Vile Darkness. They could be used to create Karrnathi undead.
Phalo
05-05-07, 07:36 PM it may also have to do some with the controlling factor of the karrnathi undead. I remember in one of the books a need to have a controlling cape of some sort. Also take into account the possibility of additional spells added into the creation of the undead. fox cunning cast upon the gem placed in the eye would maybe raise intelligence
Or maybe some portion of the soul is bound to the undead the whole karrnath religion is based on cheating death.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dragoloth 04-23-07, 01:01 AM	Does it say anywhere how karrnathi undead are made? Massproducing intelligent undead for an army is what I'm after. I would loke to know if it is a new spell or a special process if it even tells anywhere. Any help is appreciated and thank you in advance.
Dragom 04-23-07, 01:38 AM	It doesn't really say anywhere. I think you just need some Karnathi corpses of troops who died in the name of Karnath and treat them alchimically before using the standard raise dead spell. Though some may raise as normal zombies and skeletons if they did indeed die cursing Karnath for getting them killed in what they thought was a pointless exercise. So with 50 corpses harvested from a random battlefield in the Mournland (where luckily they have not decayed at all) maybe 10 will rise as proper Karnathi undead. Though you would still be paying the full time and gold costs. Some battlefields would yield higher or lower results. Depending on how the troops where commanded and how they fell. Example a) The troops where force marched for days by a green commander and fell into a simple trap that smacked of betrayal long before ever reaching the first combat might fail to produce a single Karnathi undead. Example b) The troops where granted special dispensation by a beloved comander to defend a helpless Cyran town from Valenar raiders in the wake of a major victory may produce nearly 100% Karnathi undead. But it's kind of worth wile for actual intelligent undead that can perform more complex tasks and make tactical decisions in combat. 75gp each for the onyx stones and I would guess 100-200 gp each for the Alchemical bath
JulesCARV 04-23-07, 02:26 AM	If you're a patriotic Karrnathi necromancer who's been let in on the secrets of Karrnathi undead creation, (DM-discretion roleplaying requirements) and the corpse you're animating was a patriotic Karrnathi warrior, I'd say that you could manage with CL 12+ Create Undead. After all, Karrnathi undead are CR 3, same as ghasts, who are also CR 3 and can be raised with CL 12+ Create Undead. Bear in mind that these freshly-created Karrnathi undead would not have the nice equipment that the ones in the book have, like half-plate armor, masterwork longswords, and such, unless they died wearing such equipment. You'd have to supply that yourself.
Nived 04-23-07, 02:46 AM	This question comes up from time to time. Keith has answered it on his website http://www.bossythecow.com in his "Ask the Dreaming Dark" sections. For grins I'll repost it here. September 14. 2006 This week, we take a look at the wonderful world of undead. Q: I was wondering exactly what game mechanics go into creating the Karrnathi skeletons and zombies...or if you can at least give an estimate on their 'production rate'? If you look at the ECS, the following statements are made about both forms of Karrnathi undead: "It (bones/flesh) have been treated alchemically to make them more resilient. Karrnathi (skeletons/zombies) are created from the remains of elite Karrnathi soldiers slain in battle." There are two points here: the treatment of the remains and the nature of the soldier. I'll start with the second point… the fact that the undead must be made from an elite Karrnathi soldier slain in battle. Some people have suggested that if Karrnath was smart, it would just kill all its soldiers and raise them as Karrnathi undead, because the undead are more effective than a typical first level warrior. But that's just the point: a typical first level warrior couldn't be used to create a Karrnathi skeleton; only "elite" soldiers can serve this purpose. Personally, I would require the subject to have been at least third level in life in order to be eligible to be raised as a Karrnathi undead… and he does need to have died in battle, fighting for his country. It's important to understand that Karrnathi undead are not the people they were in life. It's not a cheap substitute for raise dead. Every Karrnathi skeleton has the same skills, and like normal skeletons, cannot advance in hit dice. Despite being intelligent and aware, their consciousness is not human. Most priests say that the Karrnathi undead are vessels for the fighting spirit of Karrnath itself, and this would explain both the need for the body to be that of a skilled soldier and death in battle; the body must be spiritually prepared to rise as an undead warrior. Of course, spiritual preparations are only part of the challenge of creating Karrnathi undead; there's also that alchemical treatment. Normally, the animate dead spell requires components worth 25 gp/hit die. For Karrnathi undead, I'd double that cost to take these alchemical salves into account, and personally say that the bodies are normally soaked in these substances. This would mean that a normal priest or necromancer couldn't raise a Karrnathi undead ON the battlefield, because the body has to be prepared. The obvious exception to this point is the bone knight, who has the spell-like ability to create Karrnathi undead (and spell-like abilities ignore components). However, even in the case of the bone knight, I would insist that the targeted corpses be those of elite Karrnathi soldiers – not peasants, not green conscripts, and certainly not enemies of the nation. So in terms of speed of production, the key issue is that in order to create a Karrnathi undead soldier, you first need a dead elite soldier – and if those soldiers are doing their jobs, their corpses will be in short supply. Bear in mind that not every undead soldier in the armies of Karrnath is Karrnathi undead; they certainly employ traditional skeletons and zombies in addition to the sentient elites.
Dragoloth 04-23-07, 12:24 PM	Thank you all for your posts. I forgot about the bone knights ability to animate karrnathi undead.
UnderworldLord 04-23-07, 03:09 PM	Which still requires the same stipulations from keith's post.
Vharuck 04-23-07, 04:17 PM	Seeing as how the technique of creating these elite skeletons and zombies came from Erandis d'Vol, I think it has nothing to do with the nationalism of the corpse. It's probably a very old Qabalrin magic ritual.
Just another user 04-23-07, 06:16 PM	Seeing as how the technique of creating these elite skeletons and zombies came from Erandis d'Vol, I think it has nothing to do with the nationalism of the corpse. It's probably a very old Qabalrin magic ritual. I see the nationalism of the corpse being a part of the ritual, either something spiritual, like " the soul (or whatever is that remain in the corpse) is still willing to fight for Karmath) or something more "concrete" i.e the oath that Karmathi soldiers swear when they start the service is actually a part of the ritual that willl trasform them in undead, like a clause that says, "yes, I'm willing to fight for Karmath even after I'm dead" and that will make of them some stronger and smarter when they are animated.
UnderworldLord 04-23-07, 07:59 PM	Nationality might play a part in the spell as the soul may have to be willing to let its corpse go for the spell to work. We only know that it requires these things, not why.
Fabius Maximus 05-02-07, 12:57 PM	There are the Bone and Corpse Creature templates in the Book of Vile Darkness. They could be used to create Karrnathi undead.
Phalo 05-05-07, 07:36 PM	it may also have to do some with the controlling factor of the karrnathi undead. I remember in one of the books a need to have a controlling cape of some sort. Also take into account the possibility of additional spells added into the creation of the undead. fox cunning cast upon the gem placed in the eye would maybe raise intelligence Or maybe some portion of the soul is bound to the undead the whole karrnath religion is based on cheating death.