Mass Conviction & Action Points [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mass Conviction & Action Points [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Werebat
07-06-07, 03:29 PM Has anyone else noticed the combination of Mass Conviction and Action Points spelling trouble in campaigns where not many save are ever failed?

- Ron ^*^
Werebat
07-08-07, 04:30 PM ...apparently not.

Seriously, though -- +4 to all saves, on all day if your players are halfway intelligent, that stacks with resistance bonuses AND action points?

I don't know the average of 3d6 (drop lowest two), but it's got to be more than 4. So you're talking about a +8 extra bonus to most saves you really don't want to blow, before vests of Resistance, Superior Resistance, etc. is taken into consideration. Say you've got a +3 Vest of Resistance by level 12 (a sound investment I'd expect everyone to make); this means that the 8 Wis fighter's crappy +3 Will save morphs into a respectable +14 when he needs it (and he'll know when he needs it). Meanwhile if his Con is a conservative 16, his Fort save soars from +11 to +22!

Yeah, you can't use AP *all* the time, but you generally do get to use them when you need to use them, and you generally know when it's important to do so. IME the killer combo of Mass Conviction and AP all but dumps any effect permitting a save into the dustbin of "obsolete weaponry".

- Ron ^*^
Jorda_The_Knight
07-08-07, 07:52 PM I admit that's a pretty good combo, but look at it this way...you're the DM man! You can make anything happen in your world and as long as you present a reasonable excuse for it than it's still "fair".

Perhaps the villains (especially a recurring one) are sick of the PC's always making their saving throws, so they cook up a little scheme to knock them down a peg. A nasty Curse spell launched just before the spell is cast can negate that mean bonus, as well as a good Dispell Magic or even, if you're feeling particularly ****** off Mordenkainen's Disjunction will leave the PC's begging for forgiveness.

I always let my players get away with anything clever or powerful they come up with, it's not fair to punish them for that. But when they start to abuse an ability and unbalance the game it's your duty as a DM to slide things back towards the neutral area so they don't laugh in the face of every wizard they meet.
Werebat
07-08-07, 09:40 PM I admit that's a pretty good combo, but look at it this way...you're the DM man! You can make anything happen in your world and as long as you present a reasonable excuse for it than it's still "fair".

Perhaps the villains (especially a recurring one) are sick of the PC's always making their saving throws, so they cook up a little scheme to knock them down a peg. A nasty Curse spell launched just before the spell is cast can negate that mean bonus, as well as a good Dispell Magic or even, if you're feeling particularly ****** off Mordenkainen's Disjunction will leave the PC's begging for forgiveness.

I always let my players get away with anything clever or powerful they come up with, it's not fair to punish them for that. But when they start to abuse an ability and unbalance the game it's your duty as a DM to slide things back towards the neutral area so they don't laugh in the face of every wizard they meet.

Dispel Magic gets trotted out as a panacea to the problem in every discussion I have seen, and it is no such thing. Not everything has access to it. Even if everything did, it has a pretty poor chance of dropping more than one PCs Mass Conviction (area dispels are too easy to protect against with long-term poopie buffs like Message). Even if it did drop someone's Mass Conviction, the spell has already cost the enemy one of its 3-5 rounds of combat existence, so it's a winner even if it's dispelled.

Mordy's Disjunction is a 9th level spell, castable by 17th level casters, who will be well beyond the ken of the 12th level PC who can pull this trick off all day (all it takes is a rod of minor extension, a 3rd level cleric slot, and a 5th level cleric slot). If you need to set up a CR+5 encounter to counter a spell, guess what? It's an overpowered spell.

It seems like some people feel that it is acceptable for the DM to set up encounters that are tailor made to bypass specific PC schtick, as if DM cheating is an acceptable counter to overpowered material. I guess this could be a legitimate school of thought, but it isn't one I'd like to espouse.

- Ron ^*^
yrogerg
07-09-07, 12:28 AM It seems like some people feel that it is acceptable for the DM to set up encounters that are tailor made to bypass specific PC schtick, as if DM cheating is an acceptable counter to overpowered material. I guess this could be a legitimate school of thought, but it isn't one I'd like to espouse.

It's only cheating if done poorly, though. There are plenty of in-game reasons why certain antagonists would be prepared for facing the PCs, especially if they've gained some level of noteriety and happen to use the same tricks over and over again. A bounty hunter or law-enforcement type pursuing the PCs, for example, would most likely be prepared for the party's usual tricks. That's hardly cheating. It's just good management of IC knowledge.
sag3
07-15-07, 02:09 PM Range touch attack spells do not have saves as a general rule familiarizes yourself with them. If you really want to hit your PCs with a touch spell read true strike as well and put the two together;) .

Dispel magic and time is another way to deal with the problem. As a DM Ive never really had a problem leaching my players action points away from them. It is rare that they have spare action points left at the end of a level. The trick is to put in a few hard encounters at the start of the level where they consider the use of action points. Then when it comes to the lesser foes afterwards they are looking at the few action points they have left and consider closely if it is worth using them now or not.

If your players are using an action point with 3D6 they are level 15 +. Feel free to hit them with spells like force cage, reverse gravity, power words no save, prismatic spray/wall for more than one save at once. Then there are limited wish and wish which they could be facing.
You could always Geas/Quest/mark of justice the person who keeps casting it to stop them from casting it. Or for more flavor tempt the cleric into straying from the path and his first hint is that his god wont answer that spell any more till he atones.

If your PCs are only level 12 hit them with some simple things like enervate level drain creatures or Touch of idiocy. Every 120 min the spell needs to be recast if some evil intelligent foes noticed their targets where casting a spell every two hours dont you think they could time their attack. Not to mention night time encounters. Another option is to leave hints your PCs will need a different third level cleric spells for example invisibility purge or water breathing. Cant have every spell all the time if they try to cover themselves with potions. Sorry sold out of those you could wait a few days of cause the guys who bought the potions said they where heading the same place you are.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Werebat 07-06-07, 03:29 PM	Has anyone else noticed the combination of Mass Conviction and Action Points spelling trouble in campaigns where not many save are ever failed? - Ron ^*^
Werebat 07-08-07, 04:30 PM	...apparently not. Seriously, though -- +4 to all saves, on all day if your players are halfway intelligent, that stacks with resistance bonuses AND action points? I don't know the average of 3d6 (drop lowest two), but it's got to be more than 4. So you're talking about a +8 extra bonus to most saves you really don't want to blow, before vests of Resistance, Superior Resistance, etc. is taken into consideration. Say you've got a +3 Vest of Resistance by level 12 (a sound investment I'd expect everyone to make); this means that the 8 Wis fighter's crappy +3 Will save morphs into a respectable +14 when he needs it (and he'll know when he needs it). Meanwhile if his Con is a conservative 16, his Fort save soars from +11 to +22! Yeah, you can't use AP all the time, but you generally do get to use them when you need to use them, and you generally know when it's important to do so. IME the killer combo of Mass Conviction and AP all but dumps any effect permitting a save into the dustbin of "obsolete weaponry". - Ron ^*^
Jorda_The_Knight 07-08-07, 07:52 PM	I admit that's a pretty good combo, but look at it this way...you're the DM man! You can make anything happen in your world and as long as you present a reasonable excuse for it than it's still "fair". Perhaps the villains (especially a recurring one) are sick of the PC's always making their saving throws, so they cook up a little scheme to knock them down a peg. A nasty Curse spell launched just before the spell is cast can negate that mean bonus, as well as a good Dispell Magic or even, if you're feeling particularly ****** off Mordenkainen's Disjunction will leave the PC's begging for forgiveness. I always let my players get away with anything clever or powerful they come up with, it's not fair to punish them for that. But when they start to abuse an ability and unbalance the game it's your duty as a DM to slide things back towards the neutral area so they don't laugh in the face of every wizard they meet.
Werebat 07-08-07, 09:40 PM	I admit that's a pretty good combo, but look at it this way...you're the DM man! You can make anything happen in your world and as long as you present a reasonable excuse for it than it's still "fair". Perhaps the villains (especially a recurring one) are sick of the PC's always making their saving throws, so they cook up a little scheme to knock them down a peg. A nasty Curse spell launched just before the spell is cast can negate that mean bonus, as well as a good Dispell Magic or even, if you're feeling particularly ****** off Mordenkainen's Disjunction will leave the PC's begging for forgiveness. I always let my players get away with anything clever or powerful they come up with, it's not fair to punish them for that. But when they start to abuse an ability and unbalance the game it's your duty as a DM to slide things back towards the neutral area so they don't laugh in the face of every wizard they meet. Dispel Magic gets trotted out as a panacea to the problem in every discussion I have seen, and it is no such thing. Not everything has access to it. Even if everything did, it has a pretty poor chance of dropping more than one PCs Mass Conviction (area dispels are too easy to protect against with long-term poopie buffs like Message). Even if it did drop someone's Mass Conviction, the spell has already cost the enemy one of its 3-5 rounds of combat existence, so it's a winner even if it's dispelled. Mordy's Disjunction is a 9th level spell, castable by 17th level casters, who will be well beyond the ken of the 12th level PC who can pull this trick off all day (all it takes is a rod of minor extension, a 3rd level cleric slot, and a 5th level cleric slot). If you need to set up a CR+5 encounter to counter a spell, guess what? It's an overpowered spell. It seems like some people feel that it is acceptable for the DM to set up encounters that are tailor made to bypass specific PC schtick, as if DM cheating is an acceptable counter to overpowered material. I guess this could be a legitimate school of thought, but it isn't one I'd like to espouse. - Ron ^*^
yrogerg 07-09-07, 12:28 AM	It seems like some people feel that it is acceptable for the DM to set up encounters that are tailor made to bypass specific PC schtick, as if DM cheating is an acceptable counter to overpowered material. I guess this could be a legitimate school of thought, but it isn't one I'd like to espouse. It's only cheating if done poorly, though. There are plenty of in-game reasons why certain antagonists would be prepared for facing the PCs, especially if they've gained some level of noteriety and happen to use the same tricks over and over again. A bounty hunter or law-enforcement type pursuing the PCs, for example, would most likely be prepared for the party's usual tricks. That's hardly cheating. It's just good management of IC knowledge.
sag3 07-15-07, 02:09 PM	Range touch attack spells do not have saves as a general rule familiarizes yourself with them. If you really want to hit your PCs with a touch spell read true strike as well and put the two together;) . Dispel magic and time is another way to deal with the problem. As a DM Ive never really had a problem leaching my players action points away from them. It is rare that they have spare action points left at the end of a level. The trick is to put in a few hard encounters at the start of the level where they consider the use of action points. Then when it comes to the lesser foes afterwards they are looking at the few action points they have left and consider closely if it is worth using them now or not. If your players are using an action point with 3D6 they are level 15 +. Feel free to hit them with spells like force cage, reverse gravity, power words no save, prismatic spray/wall for more than one save at once. Then there are limited wish and wish which they could be facing. You could always Geas/Quest/mark of justice the person who keeps casting it to stop them from casting it. Or for more flavor tempt the cleric into straying from the path and his first hint is that his god wont answer that spell any more till he atones. If your PCs are only level 12 hit them with some simple things like enervate level drain creatures or Touch of idiocy. Every 120 min the spell needs to be recast if some evil intelligent foes noticed their targets where casting a spell every two hours dont you think they could time their attack. Not to mention night time encounters. Another option is to leave hints your PCs will need a different third level cleric spells for example invisibility purge or water breathing. Cant have every spell all the time if they try to cover themselves with potions. Sorry sold out of those you could wait a few days of cause the guys who bought the potions said they where heading the same place you are.