Material Plane and Bad people from other planes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Material Plane and Bad people from other planes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Glen_Stryder
02-19-08, 12:12 PM Maybe this question has been asked before but i couldn't find an answer.

I am currently reading the eberron books preparing a campaign for when 4ed will launch (and thus i m only concentring on fluff).

All Eberron story is linked with invasions from non-material planes ( planes of dream, planes of madness).

My question is : why? why do creatures invade the material planes? Why only the material planes?
Why the Dealkyr do not invade the plane of dreams and so on?

In fact the question is: what is the specificity of the material plane that makes it the most appealing (or the only?) for outsiders?

thanks
clayball
02-19-08, 01:17 PM The material plane would be the easiest to invade with all the manifest zones about. There may not be such connections between the outer planes and invading them would likely require high level magic which invaders would not nessicarily have access to.
naturax
02-19-08, 01:52 PM In my opinion, the Daelkyr invaded the material plane in order to save it. They saw a twisted miserable place, lost in its own insanity, and when they subtly tried to bring about the salvation of its inhabitants, they reacted in violent opposition. The Daelkyr then had no choice but to force their benevolent solution onto the poor, distraught, suffering humanoids who live in Eberron, and sadly they failed. That's not going to stop them from continuing to try, though, because the Daelkyr are ultimately beings of pure goodness and compassion.

As for the Quori, it's been written that the Dreaming Dark (the evil entities that form the core of the current population of the Quori) need to control the dreams of all sentient creatures on Eberron in order to prevent the Turning of the Age. I know there's lots written about this here, on KB's personal site, and in a few of the books, but I'm not sure in exactly which sources.
Syltorian
02-19-08, 02:41 PM My question is : why? why do creatures invade the material planes? Why only the material planes?
Why the Dealkyr do not invade the plane of dreams and so on?

I like Naturax' twist on the Daelkyr: good work there! However, the way I see it, however, is this: first, while planes strengthen certain aspects of the material plane, they are essentially these very aspects transcended. The planes are shadows of the prime material. As a shadow cannot exist without an object to throw it, so the planes cannot exist without the material plane whose various aspects they represent. That is why the planes revolve around the material plane not each other. The material plane is the turning point that anchors the whole.

Xoriat has no interest in taking over another shadow. It wants control over the only place that is real, the only place that is material, the only place, if you excuse my pun, that matters. A complete victory of Xoriat over the material plane would make madness and un-nature the only aspects, so Lamannia and other planes would simply disappear; they would have nothing left to represent. Wasting forces to invade Lamannia first, while this will certainly have an effect on Eberron (the influence is mutual, to an extent), it is strategically more effective to take the bridgehead and anchor your plane permanently, as the Quori try to do. The rest will follow, because it depends on the central pivot. So, essentially, the Daelkyr are not good or evil for the sake of it, they are desperate and seek to anchor their plane permanently, before someone else does so.

Alternatively: who says the Daelkyr haven't launched an attack on Fernia or Thelanis yet? The source books are written from the point of view of the material plane, and do not propose to offer the full history of Dollurh. If it suits your campaign to have Mabar launch an invasion into Irian, by all means go ahead: nothing in the setting contradicts this, and you could come up with interesting stories and effects. Perhaps this was the reason for the Mourning. Perhaps the Gatekeepers only defeated the Daelkyr because someone got the Eladrin of Lamannia to attack Xoriat at the same time, without anyone being the wiser on the material plane.
Gurv
02-20-08, 06:49 AM For the most part, outsiders are not interested in the Material Plane at all. They show even less interest in it than they do in other campaign settings. This is largely because the planes are not the "heavens" and the "hells" in the same manner as the core cosmology. Most souls go to Dolurhh regardless, so there isn't much benefit for an outsider to try and influence a mortal's alignment or behavior.

What makes the planar invasions interesting in Eberron is how unlikely they are. When it does happen, it takes everything we've got to repel them.

The reason for the Xoriat invasion isn't very clear. Of course, the daelkyr are not especially known for "reason" anyway. Not knowing otherwise, I would say that they targeted Eberron because it is covered with mortals. Mortals reproduce, which means that they can be bred. Nothing pleases a daeklyr as much as creating something freakish that breeds true.

The invasion from Dal Quor might be for the reason that Syltorian mentions. Dal Quor has a cycle in which it goes from a dream-like realm to a nightmare realm, roughly every 10,000 years. When this change occurs, all the inhabitants are destroyed and are reborn into the new form of the plane. There is evidence that the quori of the previous age may have been trying to flee that destruction. Present-day quori are trying to actually stop the Turning of the Age. The Age is influenced by the dreams of mortals, and thus the quori are spreading their mind-control across the world.

I would also point out that your assumption that the various planes never interact or invade one another may be just that: an assumption. For all we know, it happens. But we just don't know about it when it does.
larry_the_titan
02-20-08, 12:19 PM Just posting because there are a couple good thought here about the planes of Eberron that I hope the thread continues to grow, And ask where is Hellcow when you need him?
skrap-san
02-21-08, 02:56 AM And ask where is Hellcow when you need him?

Well according to my sources he has gone underground to write an article series about the planes. So I'd say hes excused this time around.
Glen_Stryder
02-21-08, 03:31 AM Thanks a lot for the replies. They mostly make sense. Planes are one of the most "touchy" subject a DM has to understand.

In fact what really bother me is the central aspect of the material plane. As Gurv said, planes are not really the "heavens" and "hell" of the material plane, hence i find it difficult to understand the particular aspect of the material plane.

Another question on the planes ^^

Does the prophecy influences other planes? If yes, are there signs of the prophecy in other planes?
I'd say that maybe it is the fact that the prophecy is "written" in eberron that makes the material plane so particular.
Gurv
02-26-08, 08:06 PM In fact what really bother me is the central aspect of the material plane. As Gurv said, planes are not really the "heavens" and "hell" of the material plane, hence i find it difficult to understand the particular aspect of the material plane.
This can be explained. The Material Plane is important because it really is the center of it all. Not because souls are important, but because when the multiverse was created, the Material Plane was placed in the middle and the other planes bound to orbit it. It's importance was decided by the godlike beings who brought the current order to the multiuniverse.

Does the prophecy influences other planes? If yes, are there signs of the prophecy in other planes?
I'd say that maybe it is the fact that the prophecy is "written" in eberron that makes the material plane so particular.
There is no official answer to this yet. It seems that Eberron plays a central role in the Prophecy, and the other planes are secondary to it. There might be signs of the Prophecy in other planes...but its all "about" Eberron.
Edymnion
02-26-08, 08:37 PM All Eberron story is linked with invasions from non-material planes ( planes of dream, planes of madness).

My question is : why?Two big reasons:

1) Eberron is pulp/noir. One of the central themes of a good sci-fi pulp is that the aliens always try to invade Earth. There is never a good reason why they want to do it, and often times plenty of reasons not to do it (War of the Worlds, a race as advanced as the martians didn't think to run a scan to detect microbes? Or Signs, the aliens melt when hit with water, are invading a planet that is 70% water, where water falls out of the sky at random intervals?). Hence, in Eberron, its the other planes invading the Material Plane, just like the aliens invading Earth.

2) Who says they don't invade other planes/realms? The Daelkyr are specifically said to have destroyed multiple worlds before coming to Eberron. So, its not so much of "Why do they all attack Eberron?", its just a simple case of these are the ones we hear about. There could be dozens, hundreds, even thousands of other races out there in the Eberronian ether that are busy invading someone else. But since they aren't invading Eberron, we don't hear about them.
Hellcow
02-27-08, 12:27 AM In fact the question is: what is the specificity of the material plane that makes it the most appealing (or the only?) for outsiders?
Change.

There's a lot of issues in this thread, and I don't have time to explore the issue in great depth. But one of the things that clearly separates the material plane from the others is the ease of effective long-term change. Most of the planes embody a specific concept, and you simply cannot pull them away from that. You will never cool the fires of Fernia, bring light to the darkness of Mabar, or peace to the battlefields of Shavarath.

Beyond this, you have the fact that the closest thing to gods that we know of are the planes themselves. Dal Quor IS il-Lashtavar... and it stands to reason that other planes have similar underlying spirits. These may or may not have the ability to directly influence their realms... but if they do, do you want to go up against them? Furthermore you have the fact that the prime minions of these beings are immortal. The fiends and celestials of Shavarath always return to fight again; do you want to put yourself in that meatgrinder?

In coming to the material plane, the daelkyr have the power to utterly transform a world, permanently twisting or destroying its mortal inhabitants. Kill an angel and a new one takes its place, almost just like the one that came before. The planes are static; the material can be changed.

But wait - what about Dal Quor? Isn't change what they fear? Certainly. But that change isn't coming from Dal Quor itself. Instead, the Quori believe that it's driven by the material plane - and they are going to the material plane because they believe that control of the material can PREVENT the change.

The material plane is the center of things. It has the power to transform the other planes... and it can be transformed by the other planes. The daelkyr enjoy forcing change; the quori seek to stop it. Either way, the material is the key.
Shady314
02-27-08, 04:07 AM Because if two planes go to war you just get Shavarath.
Gurv
02-27-08, 06:40 AM Beyond this, you have the fact that the closest thing to gods that we know of are the planes themselves.
Aha! I'll be taking that quote as pseudo-cannon and adding it to my progenitor/planes/moons theory.

It seems to me that the forces that make up the multiverse all want to shape it a certain way. Siberys and Eberron and Khyber all have their own view of how the world should be. And it seems that the other planes (which I hold to be Progenitors as well) also want to have a vote. They're like jackels watching larger predators fight and waiting for the right moment to strike and claim what they want. The very fact that the material plane can't agree on a singular concept makes it easier to influence from the outside.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Glen_Stryder 02-19-08, 12:12 PM	Maybe this question has been asked before but i couldn't find an answer. I am currently reading the eberron books preparing a campaign for when 4ed will launch (and thus i m only concentring on fluff). All Eberron story is linked with invasions from non-material planes ( planes of dream, planes of madness). My question is : why? why do creatures invade the material planes? Why only the material planes? Why the Dealkyr do not invade the plane of dreams and so on? In fact the question is: what is the specificity of the material plane that makes it the most appealing (or the only?) for outsiders? thanks
clayball 02-19-08, 01:17 PM	The material plane would be the easiest to invade with all the manifest zones about. There may not be such connections between the outer planes and invading them would likely require high level magic which invaders would not nessicarily have access to.
naturax 02-19-08, 01:52 PM	In my opinion, the Daelkyr invaded the material plane in order to save it. They saw a twisted miserable place, lost in its own insanity, and when they subtly tried to bring about the salvation of its inhabitants, they reacted in violent opposition. The Daelkyr then had no choice but to force their benevolent solution onto the poor, distraught, suffering humanoids who live in Eberron, and sadly they failed. That's not going to stop them from continuing to try, though, because the Daelkyr are ultimately beings of pure goodness and compassion. As for the Quori, it's been written that the Dreaming Dark (the evil entities that form the core of the current population of the Quori) need to control the dreams of all sentient creatures on Eberron in order to prevent the Turning of the Age. I know there's lots written about this here, on KB's personal site, and in a few of the books, but I'm not sure in exactly which sources.
Syltorian 02-19-08, 02:41 PM	My question is : why? why do creatures invade the material planes? Why only the material planes? Why the Dealkyr do not invade the plane of dreams and so on? I like Naturax' twist on the Daelkyr: good work there! However, the way I see it, however, is this: first, while planes strengthen certain aspects of the material plane, they are essentially these very aspects transcended. The planes are shadows of the prime material. As a shadow cannot exist without an object to throw it, so the planes cannot exist without the material plane whose various aspects they represent. That is why the planes revolve around the material plane not each other. The material plane is the turning point that anchors the whole. Xoriat has no interest in taking over another shadow. It wants control over the only place that is real, the only place that is material, the only place, if you excuse my pun, that matters. A complete victory of Xoriat over the material plane would make madness and un-nature the only aspects, so Lamannia and other planes would simply disappear; they would have nothing left to represent. Wasting forces to invade Lamannia first, while this will certainly have an effect on Eberron (the influence is mutual, to an extent), it is strategically more effective to take the bridgehead and anchor your plane permanently, as the Quori try to do. The rest will follow, because it depends on the central pivot. So, essentially, the Daelkyr are not good or evil for the sake of it, they are desperate and seek to anchor their plane permanently, before someone else does so. Alternatively: who says the Daelkyr haven't launched an attack on Fernia or Thelanis yet? The source books are written from the point of view of the material plane, and do not propose to offer the full history of Dollurh. If it suits your campaign to have Mabar launch an invasion into Irian, by all means go ahead: nothing in the setting contradicts this, and you could come up with interesting stories and effects. Perhaps this was the reason for the Mourning. Perhaps the Gatekeepers only defeated the Daelkyr because someone got the Eladrin of Lamannia to attack Xoriat at the same time, without anyone being the wiser on the material plane.
Gurv 02-20-08, 06:49 AM	For the most part, outsiders are not interested in the Material Plane at all. They show even less interest in it than they do in other campaign settings. This is largely because the planes are not the "heavens" and the "hells" in the same manner as the core cosmology. Most souls go to Dolurhh regardless, so there isn't much benefit for an outsider to try and influence a mortal's alignment or behavior. What makes the planar invasions interesting in Eberron is how unlikely they are. When it does happen, it takes everything we've got to repel them. The reason for the Xoriat invasion isn't very clear. Of course, the daelkyr are not especially known for "reason" anyway. Not knowing otherwise, I would say that they targeted Eberron because it is covered with mortals. Mortals reproduce, which means that they can be bred. Nothing pleases a daeklyr as much as creating something freakish that breeds true. The invasion from Dal Quor might be for the reason that Syltorian mentions. Dal Quor has a cycle in which it goes from a dream-like realm to a nightmare realm, roughly every 10,000 years. When this change occurs, all the inhabitants are destroyed and are reborn into the new form of the plane. There is evidence that the quori of the previous age may have been trying to flee that destruction. Present-day quori are trying to actually stop the Turning of the Age. The Age is influenced by the dreams of mortals, and thus the quori are spreading their mind-control across the world. I would also point out that your assumption that the various planes never interact or invade one another may be just that: an assumption. For all we know, it happens. But we just don't know about it when it does.
larry_the_titan 02-20-08, 12:19 PM	Just posting because there are a couple good thought here about the planes of Eberron that I hope the thread continues to grow, And ask where is Hellcow when you need him?
skrap-san 02-21-08, 02:56 AM	And ask where is Hellcow when you need him? Well according to my sources he has gone underground to write an article series about the planes. So I'd say hes excused this time around.
Glen_Stryder 02-21-08, 03:31 AM	Thanks a lot for the replies. They mostly make sense. Planes are one of the most "touchy" subject a DM has to understand. In fact what really bother me is the central aspect of the material plane. As Gurv said, planes are not really the "heavens" and "hell" of the material plane, hence i find it difficult to understand the particular aspect of the material plane. Another question on the planes ^^ Does the prophecy influences other planes? If yes, are there signs of the prophecy in other planes? I'd say that maybe it is the fact that the prophecy is "written" in eberron that makes the material plane so particular.
Gurv 02-26-08, 08:06 PM	In fact what really bother me is the central aspect of the material plane. As Gurv said, planes are not really the "heavens" and "hell" of the material plane, hence i find it difficult to understand the particular aspect of the material plane. This can be explained. The Material Plane is important because it really is the center of it all. Not because souls are important, but because when the multiverse was created, the Material Plane was placed in the middle and the other planes bound to orbit it. It's importance was decided by the godlike beings who brought the current order to the multiuniverse. Does the prophecy influences other planes? If yes, are there signs of the prophecy in other planes? I'd say that maybe it is the fact that the prophecy is "written" in eberron that makes the material plane so particular. There is no official answer to this yet. It seems that Eberron plays a central role in the Prophecy, and the other planes are secondary to it. There might be signs of the Prophecy in other planes...but its all "about" Eberron.
Edymnion 02-26-08, 08:37 PM	All Eberron story is linked with invasions from non-material planes ( planes of dream, planes of madness). My question is : why?Two big reasons: 1) Eberron is pulp/noir. One of the central themes of a good sci-fi pulp is that the aliens always try to invade Earth. There is never a good reason why they want to do it, and often times plenty of reasons not to do it (War of the Worlds, a race as advanced as the martians didn't think to run a scan to detect microbes? Or Signs, the aliens melt when hit with water, are invading a planet that is 70% water, where water falls out of the sky at random intervals?). Hence, in Eberron, its the other planes invading the Material Plane, just like the aliens invading Earth. 2) Who says they don't invade other planes/realms? The Daelkyr are specifically said to have destroyed multiple worlds before coming to Eberron. So, its not so much of "Why do they all attack Eberron?", its just a simple case of these are the ones we hear about. There could be dozens, hundreds, even thousands of other races out there in the Eberronian ether that are busy invading someone else. But since they aren't invading Eberron, we don't hear about them.
Hellcow 02-27-08, 12:27 AM	In fact the question is: what is the specificity of the material plane that makes it the most appealing (or the only?) for outsiders? Change. There's a lot of issues in this thread, and I don't have time to explore the issue in great depth. But one of the things that clearly separates the material plane from the others is the ease of effective long-term change. Most of the planes embody a specific concept, and you simply cannot pull them away from that. You will never cool the fires of Fernia, bring light to the darkness of Mabar, or peace to the battlefields of Shavarath. Beyond this, you have the fact that the closest thing to gods that we know of are the planes themselves. Dal Quor IS il-Lashtavar... and it stands to reason that other planes have similar underlying spirits. These may or may not have the ability to directly influence their realms... but if they do, do you want to go up against them? Furthermore you have the fact that the prime minions of these beings are immortal. The fiends and celestials of Shavarath always return to fight again; do you want to put yourself in that meatgrinder? In coming to the material plane, the daelkyr have the power to utterly transform a world, permanently twisting or destroying its mortal inhabitants. Kill an angel and a new one takes its place, almost just like the one that came before. The planes are static; the material can be changed. But wait - what about Dal Quor? Isn't change what they fear? Certainly. But that change isn't coming from Dal Quor itself. Instead, the Quori believe that it's driven by the material plane - and they are going to the material plane because they believe that control of the material can PREVENT the change. The material plane is the center of things. It has the power to transform the other planes... and it can be transformed by the other planes. The daelkyr enjoy forcing change; the quori seek to stop it. Either way, the material is the key.
Shady314 02-27-08, 04:07 AM	Because if two planes go to war you just get Shavarath.
Gurv 02-27-08, 06:40 AM	Beyond this, you have the fact that the closest thing to gods that we know of are the planes themselves. Aha! I'll be taking that quote as pseudo-cannon and adding it to my progenitor/planes/moons theory. It seems to me that the forces that make up the multiverse all want to shape it a certain way. Siberys and Eberron and Khyber all have their own view of how the world should be. And it seems that the other planes (which I hold to be Progenitors as well) also want to have a vote. They're like jackels watching larger predators fight and waiting for the right moment to strike and claim what they want. The very fact that the material plane can't agree on a singular concept makes it easier to influence from the outside.