Monotheism? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Monotheism? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
OctaviusIII
05-16-07, 06:16 PM I've got an idea for a cleric (Godric) that diverges from the norm. Basically:

He was trained as a friar of the Sovereign Host
Came to believe everything - including the gods - were made by a single LG progenitor deity
Wrote a paper entitled On the Nature of the Alignments and the Preponderance of Good and Law in the World: a Case for a Progenitor God outlining his newfound beliefs
Was summarily defrocked

I envision that the theology perceives the Sovereign Host as reflective of the positive lessons of the Progenitor. They are no less real, but as created beings themselves are only worthy of prayer. Worship is saved for the Progenitor. The Dark Six are also created, but they serve as the negative lessons.

In game terms, Godric would still be a follower of the Sovereign Host for domains, although he would be an outcast. If one were to follow just the Progenitor, the domains would be Good, Law, Glory, Creation, Magic, Luck.

Thoughts? Criticisms?
Shady314
05-16-07, 06:19 PM There are progenitor gods. Siberys, Eberron and Khyber. How does his belief tie into them?
OctaviusIII
05-16-07, 06:31 PM The progenitor wyrms were also a part of this deity's creation. Beyond that, the myth of the progenitor dragons applies only to the material plane. Besides, what about the other planes? The dragons had nothing to do with them, yet there they are.

(As for how a Lawful deity could make chaotic planes: even in places like Xoriat or Kythri there is some order - the very existence of creatures means resistance to absolute chaos.)
garner_adam
05-16-07, 06:38 PM Aside from at attempt to play an unusual cleric. There's plenty of religions in Eberron that fill the role of monotheistic. For example the Silver Flame isn't polytheistic.

There's plenty of room for outcast clerics with out making a new domains list (or even a different philosphy). Certainly corrupt clerics are cast out. The worst of them tried as criminals the remainder excommunicated.
Edymnion
05-16-07, 07:04 PM Thats the thing, there is nothing in established Eberron religion that says this can't happen. Reading Faiths of Eberron pretty much gives you the impression that people know/think that the sovereigns and the dark six sprang into exhistance with the world, they do not predate it. Even going back to Eberron/Khyber/Siberys, the fact is that these beings were mortal (you can't kill a true immortal, and Siberys is indeed dead), so they must have come from somewhere. We just know/have stories that Eberron created the present world after Khyber destroyed the old one.

So there could indeed be an overdeity in Eberron, and there is ample room to argue the case successfully. Should be perfectly viable to play a monotheistic cleric.
Psionycx
05-16-07, 07:24 PM A monotheistic belief in an ultimate divinity is in no way incompatible with Eberron. Indeed, that's more or less what the elves believe according to Faiths of Eberron. To them their ancestors are conduits to the divine, not deities in and of themselves.

People with the necessary philosophical inclination, like Plato and some other ancient Greek philosophers for example, may live within pantheistic religions but develop the belief that the "gods" are just a front for a larger divinity.

Such a theology probably wouldn't be very popular with most ordinary people, who are looking for a divine presence that is more immediate in their lives (hence the strength of the Sovereign Host as a religion). Monotheism would appeal more to people with a philosophical bent who are prone to questioning things like the ultimate origin of the cosmos and such.

But it would definitely be workable. The cleric would draw their powers from the abstract divine energies that permeate Eberron (the supposed remnants of Siberys).

The only question I would have is why the assumption that the Creator would offer the Law and Good domains. Why not also the Chaos and Evil domains? Or why any alignment domains at all?
Hideous Phidias
05-16-07, 07:44 PM I've got an idea for a cleric (Godric) that diverges from the norm. Basically:

He was trained as a friar of the Sovereign Host
Came to believe everything - including the gods - were made by a single LG progenitor deity
Wrote a paper entitled On the Nature of the Alignments and the Preponderance of Good and Law in the World: a Case for a Progenitor God outlining his newfound beliefs
Was summarily defrocked

I envision that the theology perceives the Sovereign Host as reflective of the positive lessons of the Progenitor. They are no less real, but as created beings themselves are only worthy of prayer. Worship is saved for the Progenitor. The Dark Six are also created, but they serve as the negative lessons.

In game terms, Godric would still be a follower of the Sovereign Host for domains, although he would be an outcast. If one were to follow just the Progenitor, the domains would be Good, Law, Glory, Creation, Magic, Luck.

Thoughts? Criticisms?

I sounds like you want to be the Martin Luther of Eberron. For a Character like this I would go with the Silver Flame. They are at heart Lawful good but as awhole have lost the path. The Church is riddled with corruption and the philosophy so sometmes having to do evil to fight evil has a hold on may in the church.

There are schools of thought in the silver Flame that walk on both sides of this arguement. Look at the Variant sects section on page 69 of Faiths of Eberronto see what I mean.
OctaviusIII
05-16-07, 08:28 PM It sounds like you want to be the Martin Luther of Eberron. For a Character like this I would go with the Silver Flame.

Indeed! My backstory is actually written as a letter to a religious studies professor at Morgrave who wants me as a guest lecturer (interesting side note: turns out that walking from Windshire, Aundair to Sharn is a 70-80(!) day trip); Godric certainly doesn't want to be the only one of his faith for long.

I didn't go with Silver Flame because the domains were wrong - no Sun and Healing for Radiant Servant, my prestige class goal - and also because a reformer in the Church would seek to clarify the role of evil in removing evil, not establish a progenitor deity.
Alex_
05-16-07, 09:34 PM I didn't go with Silver Flame because the domains were wrong - no Sun and Healing for Radiant Servant, my prestige class goal - and also because a reformer in the Church would seek to clarify the role of evil in removing evil, not establish a progenitor deity.

Try talking to your DM about adapting the class to Eberron. The radiant Servant prestige class was designed for Clerics of Pelor, who doesn't exist in Eberron. In fact, I don't think there's any cleric in Eberron that could qualify for the prestige class based on those domain requirements.
Psionycx
05-16-07, 09:44 PM There is a twofold thematic problem with the Silver Flame here however...

1) The Church of the Silver Flame is not actually monotheistic. Most Flamites do not dispute the existence of other gods such as the Sovereign Host. They merely argue that other gods represent the past, while the Silver Flame represents the future. The Flame will cleanse the world and then no other gods will be needed.

2) The Church does not hold that the Flame created Eberron, the progenitor dragons or the gods. It is a force with a definite past and a time in which it did not exist. Again, the Flame is all about the future, not the past.

This could be a problem if one is trying to play a cleric who has moved beyond pantheism to a philosophy that there is a higher divine force beyond the gods. Flamites don't really believe that. They believe that the Flame must be supported through the expansion of the Church and conversion of new worshippers in order to make it the one and only supreme divine force on Eberron. Thus they missionize in order to feed the Flame as it were.

How compatible that is with the proposed back story is open to question.
mhacdebhandia
05-17-07, 02:06 AM Yes, the Church of the Silver Flame is really an example of monolatry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monolatrism) - the worship of a single deity out of many known or believed to exist.

It's mildly difficult for the Church of the Silver Flame to deny that the deities of the Sovereign Host exist, given that Tira Miron was a paladin devoted to Dol Arrah, but the Sanctified don't worship them.

I think you could make a case for a character who believed - rightly or wrongly - that the Silver Flame was an eternal force, predating the sacrifice of the couatls (which could very well have been simply an act which bridged the gap between the Flame and the mortal world, like Tira's sacrifice).

Actually, an interesting take on the theology of the Silver Flame might be to propose that the Flame itself is the expression of the will of the Creator in the universe - a force which emanates from the Creator and provides a link between it and the universe, just as Tira Miron provides a link between mortals and the Silver Flame. The world is corrupted by evil - shades of real-world Gnosticism - and so the Creator touches the universe with the purifying power of the Silver Flame.

However, I think it's easier and more elegant to simply propose a transcendent Creator, the metaphysical parent of the Progenitors.
Shady314
05-17-07, 06:45 AM The progenitor wyrms were also a part of this deity's creation. Beyond that, the myth of the progenitor dragons applies only to the material plane.

Are you speaking IC? It's quite possible the progenitor dragons (if they indeed exist in some way) are responsible for the whole of existence. I'm just curious. Your cleric is fine so long as it get's DM approval.
Shady314
05-17-07, 06:48 AM you can't kill a true immortal, and Siberys is indeed dead

Ah yes the age old conundrum of omnipotence. If you can do anything can you destroy something that cannot be destroyed? Or to quote Homer Simpson. "Can god microwave a burrito so hot he himself cannot eat it." :)
OctaviusIII
05-18-07, 02:41 AM Are you speaking IC? It's quite possible the progenitor dragons (if they indeed exist in some way) are responsible for the whole of existence. I'm just curious. Your cleric is fine so long as it get's DM approval.

Not speaking IC, but it is strongly implied that the progenitor wyrms are connected only to the material realm, given that Khyber, Syberys, and Eberron are manifested materially.

Ah yes the age old conundrum of omnipotence. If you can do anything can you destroy something that cannot be destroyed? Or to quote Homer Simpson. "Can god microwave a burrito so hot he himself cannot eat it." :)

Mmmm, indeed, and it is a greater quandary when there is more than one will wielding omnipotence. In Homer's hypothetical example, it's simply a matter of god limiting his or her omnipotence. In the wyrms' case, their destruction at each others' hands (claws?) is a strong argument against their omnipotence, as there is no reason for any of them to limit themselves enough to be destroyed.
Psionycx
05-18-07, 03:00 PM There's a definite sense that the progenitor dragons were not omnipotent. Siberys was killed, Khyber imprisoned and Eberron needed to use her own body to imprison Khyber rather than being able to create a separate prison.

Since the Sovereign Host are sometimes depicted as dragons, a theologian might decide that they, like the progenitors, are "cosmic dragons" and that they are the children/creations of some higher power. This would be very similar to the High God of Krynn creating the gods (supposedly) in the Beyond, or Ao in Forgotten Realms creating the gods to fulfill various cosmic functions.

Of course, in both those settings neither overpower answers prayers or grants spells. But on Eberron where all divine power is abstract anyway there's nothing stopping someone from worshipping an overpower (real or imagined) and gettings spells and powers.
Just another user
05-18-07, 06:15 PM So there could indeed be an overdeity in Eberron, and there is ample room to argue the case successfully. Should be perfectly viable to play a monotheistic cleric.

Of course there is an overdeity in Eberron, his name is Keith Baker. ;)

or Kh'ait bak'ar, as it is mentionedin some ancient texts.
Shady314
05-18-07, 08:28 PM There's a definite sense that the progenitor dragons were not omnipotent.

Omnipotent as we define it is impossible. That's what the logical thought experiment is supposed to show. If there is NO limit to what you can do then one of the things you can do is create limits for yourself but if you can do that you have limits. Thus omnipotence just really means your power knows little to no bounds.

So the question is could 3 omnipotent beings affect each other or their creations? If they can then you're absolutely right. They're not omnipotent. But nothing is. If they can't then once again they aren't omnipotent. :)

Even Ao wasn't all powerful was he? Didn't he have older "siblings" or something? My knowledge of FR is very weak but weren't there other over deities that created the whole multiverse and Ao was placed in charge of Faerun?

What I'm curious about with this cleric is if he worships this single deity as an anthropomorphic force or sentient conciousness? Suggesting this progenitor god was a LG entity seems to be saying he is one of the two. I'm curious what leads your cleric to believe the entity is Lawful And Good instead of something like True Neutral. Why did he create Kythri for example? Shouldn't he be kind of beyond alignments anyways?
OctaviusIII
05-19-07, 05:50 AM Omnipotent as we define it is impossible.
Maybe we should use a different definition then, or a more malleable term :)

What I'm curious about with this cleric is if he worships this single deity as an anthropomorphic force or sentient conciousness? Suggesting this progenitor god was a LG entity seems to be saying he is one of the two. I'm curious what leads your cleric to believe the entity is Lawful And Good instead of something like True Neutral. Why did he create Kythri for example? Shouldn't he be kind of beyond alignments anyways?

My cleric, Godric, came to his belief by examining the preferential nature of law over chaos and good over evil in the world. Kythri's a good example of that, actually. The fact that there are creatures in Kythri means that there is order there too, albeit very little. Kythri also follows rules and physical laws, just very different laws from those on Eberron. There is a great deal of chaos and madness there, but it is not absolute chaos. With regards to good/evil, all creatures believe that they are following a kind of good. Just because an evil creature will not do selfless things doesn't mean they don't see the goodness of selflessness. They may see it as foolish, but certainly not bad. This agreement on the good of selflessness implies that there must be a preference towards good. Given these preferences, a Progenitor must have had a preference for Law and a preference for Good; hence Lawful Good. Besides, one would imagine that it, as creator, would design the moral alignments to make itself perfectly match its own standards.

As to what form the deity takes:

The Progenitor created the alignments to reflect itself and so it can be assumed created everything in a reflection of itself
The closest beings to the Progenitor are the Sovereign Host, which are anthropomorphic
The Progenitor does not exist as part of creation and so is not limited by space or time and so does not have a physiology
Thus, the Progenitor is an anthropomorphic sentient consciousness.
Edymnion
05-19-07, 02:55 PM Try talking to your DM about adapting the class to Eberron. The radiant Servant prestige class was designed for Clerics of Pelor, who doesn't exist in Eberron. In fact, I don't think there's any cleric in Eberron that could qualify for the prestige class based on those domain requirements.A cleric of the Sovereign Host in general can pick any two domains that any god in the host can provide, so meeting the domain requirements should be simple for a generic cleric.
OctaviusIII
05-19-07, 06:12 PM A cleric of the Sovereign Host in general can pick any two domains that any god in the host can provide, so meeting the domain requirements should be simple for a generic cleric.

And I just checked - there aren't any domain requirements, just that I have Pelor as my patron deity. Faiths says that an equivalent would be Dol Arrah but personally I like the alliteration of "Radiant Servant of the Sovereign Host". I'll still ask my DM, of course, but I don't foresee any issues.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OctaviusIII 05-16-07, 06:16 PM	I've got an idea for a cleric (Godric) that diverges from the norm. Basically: He was trained as a friar of the Sovereign Host Came to believe everything - including the gods - were made by a single LG progenitor deity Wrote a paper entitled On the Nature of the Alignments and the Preponderance of Good and Law in the World: a Case for a Progenitor God outlining his newfound beliefs Was summarily defrocked I envision that the theology perceives the Sovereign Host as reflective of the positive lessons of the Progenitor. They are no less real, but as created beings themselves are only worthy of prayer. Worship is saved for the Progenitor. The Dark Six are also created, but they serve as the negative lessons. In game terms, Godric would still be a follower of the Sovereign Host for domains, although he would be an outcast. If one were to follow just the Progenitor, the domains would be Good, Law, Glory, Creation, Magic, Luck. Thoughts? Criticisms?
Shady314 05-16-07, 06:19 PM	There are progenitor gods. Siberys, Eberron and Khyber. How does his belief tie into them?
OctaviusIII 05-16-07, 06:31 PM	The progenitor wyrms were also a part of this deity's creation. Beyond that, the myth of the progenitor dragons applies only to the material plane. Besides, what about the other planes? The dragons had nothing to do with them, yet there they are. (As for how a Lawful deity could make chaotic planes: even in places like Xoriat or Kythri there is some order - the very existence of creatures means resistance to absolute chaos.)
garner_adam 05-16-07, 06:38 PM	Aside from at attempt to play an unusual cleric. There's plenty of religions in Eberron that fill the role of monotheistic. For example the Silver Flame isn't polytheistic. There's plenty of room for outcast clerics with out making a new domains list (or even a different philosphy). Certainly corrupt clerics are cast out. The worst of them tried as criminals the remainder excommunicated.
Edymnion 05-16-07, 07:04 PM	Thats the thing, there is nothing in established Eberron religion that says this can't happen. Reading Faiths of Eberron pretty much gives you the impression that people know/think that the sovereigns and the dark six sprang into exhistance with the world, they do not predate it. Even going back to Eberron/Khyber/Siberys, the fact is that these beings were mortal (you can't kill a true immortal, and Siberys is indeed dead), so they must have come from somewhere. We just know/have stories that Eberron created the present world after Khyber destroyed the old one. So there could indeed be an overdeity in Eberron, and there is ample room to argue the case successfully. Should be perfectly viable to play a monotheistic cleric.
Psionycx 05-16-07, 07:24 PM	A monotheistic belief in an ultimate divinity is in no way incompatible with Eberron. Indeed, that's more or less what the elves believe according to Faiths of Eberron. To them their ancestors are conduits to the divine, not deities in and of themselves. People with the necessary philosophical inclination, like Plato and some other ancient Greek philosophers for example, may live within pantheistic religions but develop the belief that the "gods" are just a front for a larger divinity. Such a theology probably wouldn't be very popular with most ordinary people, who are looking for a divine presence that is more immediate in their lives (hence the strength of the Sovereign Host as a religion). Monotheism would appeal more to people with a philosophical bent who are prone to questioning things like the ultimate origin of the cosmos and such. But it would definitely be workable. The cleric would draw their powers from the abstract divine energies that permeate Eberron (the supposed remnants of Siberys). The only question I would have is why the assumption that the Creator would offer the Law and Good domains. Why not also the Chaos and Evil domains? Or why any alignment domains at all?
Hideous Phidias 05-16-07, 07:44 PM	I've got an idea for a cleric (Godric) that diverges from the norm. Basically: He was trained as a friar of the Sovereign Host Came to believe everything - including the gods - were made by a single LG progenitor deity Wrote a paper entitled On the Nature of the Alignments and the Preponderance of Good and Law in the World: a Case for a Progenitor God outlining his newfound beliefs Was summarily defrocked I envision that the theology perceives the Sovereign Host as reflective of the positive lessons of the Progenitor. They are no less real, but as created beings themselves are only worthy of prayer. Worship is saved for the Progenitor. The Dark Six are also created, but they serve as the negative lessons. In game terms, Godric would still be a follower of the Sovereign Host for domains, although he would be an outcast. If one were to follow just the Progenitor, the domains would be Good, Law, Glory, Creation, Magic, Luck. Thoughts? Criticisms? I sounds like you want to be the Martin Luther of Eberron. For a Character like this I would go with the Silver Flame. They are at heart Lawful good but as awhole have lost the path. The Church is riddled with corruption and the philosophy so sometmes having to do evil to fight evil has a hold on may in the church. There are schools of thought in the silver Flame that walk on both sides of this arguement. Look at the Variant sects section on page 69 of Faiths of Eberronto see what I mean.
OctaviusIII 05-16-07, 08:28 PM	It sounds like you want to be the Martin Luther of Eberron. For a Character like this I would go with the Silver Flame. Indeed! My backstory is actually written as a letter to a religious studies professor at Morgrave who wants me as a guest lecturer (interesting side note: turns out that walking from Windshire, Aundair to Sharn is a 70-80(!) day trip); Godric certainly doesn't want to be the only one of his faith for long. I didn't go with Silver Flame because the domains were wrong - no Sun and Healing for Radiant Servant, my prestige class goal - and also because a reformer in the Church would seek to clarify the role of evil in removing evil, not establish a progenitor deity.
Alex_ 05-16-07, 09:34 PM	I didn't go with Silver Flame because the domains were wrong - no Sun and Healing for Radiant Servant, my prestige class goal - and also because a reformer in the Church would seek to clarify the role of evil in removing evil, not establish a progenitor deity. Try talking to your DM about adapting the class to Eberron. The radiant Servant prestige class was designed for Clerics of Pelor, who doesn't exist in Eberron. In fact, I don't think there's any cleric in Eberron that could qualify for the prestige class based on those domain requirements.
Psionycx 05-16-07, 09:44 PM	There is a twofold thematic problem with the Silver Flame here however... 1) The Church of the Silver Flame is not actually monotheistic. Most Flamites do not dispute the existence of other gods such as the Sovereign Host. They merely argue that other gods represent the past, while the Silver Flame represents the future. The Flame will cleanse the world and then no other gods will be needed. 2) The Church does not hold that the Flame created Eberron, the progenitor dragons or the gods. It is a force with a definite past and a time in which it did not exist. Again, the Flame is all about the future, not the past. This could be a problem if one is trying to play a cleric who has moved beyond pantheism to a philosophy that there is a higher divine force beyond the gods. Flamites don't really believe that. They believe that the Flame must be supported through the expansion of the Church and conversion of new worshippers in order to make it the one and only supreme divine force on Eberron. Thus they missionize in order to feed the Flame as it were. How compatible that is with the proposed back story is open to question.
mhacdebhandia 05-17-07, 02:06 AM	Yes, the Church of the Silver Flame is really an example of monolatry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monolatrism) - the worship of a single deity out of many known or believed to exist. It's mildly difficult for the Church of the Silver Flame to deny that the deities of the Sovereign Host exist, given that Tira Miron was a paladin devoted to Dol Arrah, but the Sanctified don't worship them. I think you could make a case for a character who believed - rightly or wrongly - that the Silver Flame was an eternal force, predating the sacrifice of the couatls (which could very well have been simply an act which bridged the gap between the Flame and the mortal world, like Tira's sacrifice). Actually, an interesting take on the theology of the Silver Flame might be to propose that the Flame itself is the expression of the will of the Creator in the universe - a force which emanates from the Creator and provides a link between it and the universe, just as Tira Miron provides a link between mortals and the Silver Flame. The world is corrupted by evil - shades of real-world Gnosticism - and so the Creator touches the universe with the purifying power of the Silver Flame. However, I think it's easier and more elegant to simply propose a transcendent Creator, the metaphysical parent of the Progenitors.
Shady314 05-17-07, 06:45 AM	The progenitor wyrms were also a part of this deity's creation. Beyond that, the myth of the progenitor dragons applies only to the material plane. Are you speaking IC? It's quite possible the progenitor dragons (if they indeed exist in some way) are responsible for the whole of existence. I'm just curious. Your cleric is fine so long as it get's DM approval.
Shady314 05-17-07, 06:48 AM	you can't kill a true immortal, and Siberys is indeed dead Ah yes the age old conundrum of omnipotence. If you can do anything can you destroy something that cannot be destroyed? Or to quote Homer Simpson. "Can god microwave a burrito so hot he himself cannot eat it." :)
OctaviusIII 05-18-07, 02:41 AM	Are you speaking IC? It's quite possible the progenitor dragons (if they indeed exist in some way) are responsible for the whole of existence. I'm just curious. Your cleric is fine so long as it get's DM approval. Not speaking IC, but it is strongly implied that the progenitor wyrms are connected only to the material realm, given that Khyber, Syberys, and Eberron are manifested materially. Ah yes the age old conundrum of omnipotence. If you can do anything can you destroy something that cannot be destroyed? Or to quote Homer Simpson. "Can god microwave a burrito so hot he himself cannot eat it." :) Mmmm, indeed, and it is a greater quandary when there is more than one will wielding omnipotence. In Homer's hypothetical example, it's simply a matter of god limiting his or her omnipotence. In the wyrms' case, their destruction at each others' hands (claws?) is a strong argument against their omnipotence, as there is no reason for any of them to limit themselves enough to be destroyed.
Psionycx 05-18-07, 03:00 PM	There's a definite sense that the progenitor dragons were not omnipotent. Siberys was killed, Khyber imprisoned and Eberron needed to use her own body to imprison Khyber rather than being able to create a separate prison. Since the Sovereign Host are sometimes depicted as dragons, a theologian might decide that they, like the progenitors, are "cosmic dragons" and that they are the children/creations of some higher power. This would be very similar to the High God of Krynn creating the gods (supposedly) in the Beyond, or Ao in Forgotten Realms creating the gods to fulfill various cosmic functions. Of course, in both those settings neither overpower answers prayers or grants spells. But on Eberron where all divine power is abstract anyway there's nothing stopping someone from worshipping an overpower (real or imagined) and gettings spells and powers.
Just another user 05-18-07, 06:15 PM	So there could indeed be an overdeity in Eberron, and there is ample room to argue the case successfully. Should be perfectly viable to play a monotheistic cleric. Of course there is an overdeity in Eberron, his name is Keith Baker. ;) or Kh'ait bak'ar, as it is mentionedin some ancient texts.
Shady314 05-18-07, 08:28 PM	There's a definite sense that the progenitor dragons were not omnipotent. Omnipotent as we define it is impossible. That's what the logical thought experiment is supposed to show. If there is NO limit to what you can do then one of the things you can do is create limits for yourself but if you can do that you have limits. Thus omnipotence just really means your power knows little to no bounds. So the question is could 3 omnipotent beings affect each other or their creations? If they can then you're absolutely right. They're not omnipotent. But nothing is. If they can't then once again they aren't omnipotent. :) Even Ao wasn't all powerful was he? Didn't he have older "siblings" or something? My knowledge of FR is very weak but weren't there other over deities that created the whole multiverse and Ao was placed in charge of Faerun? What I'm curious about with this cleric is if he worships this single deity as an anthropomorphic force or sentient conciousness? Suggesting this progenitor god was a LG entity seems to be saying he is one of the two. I'm curious what leads your cleric to believe the entity is Lawful And Good instead of something like True Neutral. Why did he create Kythri for example? Shouldn't he be kind of beyond alignments anyways?
OctaviusIII 05-19-07, 05:50 AM	Omnipotent as we define it is impossible. Maybe we should use a different definition then, or a more malleable term :) What I'm curious about with this cleric is if he worships this single deity as an anthropomorphic force or sentient conciousness? Suggesting this progenitor god was a LG entity seems to be saying he is one of the two. I'm curious what leads your cleric to believe the entity is Lawful And Good instead of something like True Neutral. Why did he create Kythri for example? Shouldn't he be kind of beyond alignments anyways? My cleric, Godric, came to his belief by examining the preferential nature of law over chaos and good over evil in the world. Kythri's a good example of that, actually. The fact that there are creatures in Kythri means that there is order there too, albeit very little. Kythri also follows rules and physical laws, just very different laws from those on Eberron. There is a great deal of chaos and madness there, but it is not absolute chaos. With regards to good/evil, all creatures believe that they are following a kind of good. Just because an evil creature will not do selfless things doesn't mean they don't see the goodness of selflessness. They may see it as foolish, but certainly not bad. This agreement on the good of selflessness implies that there must be a preference towards good. Given these preferences, a Progenitor must have had a preference for Law and a preference for Good; hence Lawful Good. Besides, one would imagine that it, as creator, would design the moral alignments to make itself perfectly match its own standards. As to what form the deity takes: The Progenitor created the alignments to reflect itself and so it can be assumed created everything in a reflection of itself The closest beings to the Progenitor are the Sovereign Host, which are anthropomorphic The Progenitor does not exist as part of creation and so is not limited by space or time and so does not have a physiology Thus, the Progenitor is an anthropomorphic sentient consciousness.
Edymnion 05-19-07, 02:55 PM	Try talking to your DM about adapting the class to Eberron. The radiant Servant prestige class was designed for Clerics of Pelor, who doesn't exist in Eberron. In fact, I don't think there's any cleric in Eberron that could qualify for the prestige class based on those domain requirements.A cleric of the Sovereign Host in general can pick any two domains that any god in the host can provide, so meeting the domain requirements should be simple for a generic cleric.
OctaviusIII 05-19-07, 06:12 PM	A cleric of the Sovereign Host in general can pick any two domains that any god in the host can provide, so meeting the domain requirements should be simple for a generic cleric. And I just checked - there aren't any domain requirements, just that I have Pelor as my patron deity. Faiths says that an equivalent would be Dol Arrah but personally I like the alliteration of "Radiant Servant of the Sovereign Host". I'll still ask my DM, of course, but I don't foresee any issues.