Post/Author/DateTime	Post
andrewknaut 06-17-07, 07:15 PM	so i've wanted to play an after math, or fall out form of dnd for a while, and one way i thought of doing this was just cut out magic. Magic to a person in dnd is easily equal if not more important to a person that electricity is to us. So i was just wondering if anyones thought of this already in Eberron? I have a few ideas of how to bring around the no magic thing, but i want other peoples opinion. and ya, i know its going to be a lot of work, please don't bother saying just don't do it, cause it's just an idea I'm playing around with right now. Thanks
Kreistor2 06-17-07, 07:31 PM	Mike Mearls, who now works for DnD, created a product known as Iron Heroes, which some people used at the time for such a system; however, in this person's opinion, it was unbalanced and insuffuciently developed before release, specifically due to time restriction Mearls suffered due to his new job at WotC. The big problem you'll have is damage. Systems without healing often turn to non-lethal unconsciousness rules in order to prevent excessive deaths in a campaign. One simple rule you can implement that reduces lethality is to add a property to armour, which you can find in Unearthed Arcana. My own version converts 1 point of lethal to nonlethal for each weight class of the armour (plus 1 point for each magical bonus, but you want no magic). That is, Heavy armour converts 3 points from every physical blow to nonlethal. You will probably want some way of increasing that as level increases. Another problem you'll have is that without magical bonuses to AC, BAB will quickly and brutally outstrip AC. Armour+Dex = 8 or 9, most of the time, so regardless of level, base AC is not going to exceed 19 without a shield, and even then, you're looking at 23 with a Tower Shield. Deflection bonuses disappear. Natural AC for PC's disappears. HP's don't increase at predicted rates due to the lack of Con boosting items. There have been solutions to these problems suggested. The Wheel of Time RPG, based on D20, includes an AC bonus/character level to all classes. In fact, that book might make a pretty good basis for such a campaign, just exclude the magical sections. The other classes assume that you won't be getting any exceptional items, so balance for a non-magic campagin.
mhacdebhandia 06-17-07, 08:13 PM	Andrewknaut, I think the precise impact of "no magic" depends on exactly what you mean. For instance: if you mean that characters can no longer cast spells, but everything else still works, then the dragonmarked houses still retain their monopoly on magical industry - their dragonmarks and dragonmark focus items still work, so while their artificers are now forced to fall back on their mundane skills, their dragonmarked heirs can still operate the lightning rail or the speaking stone or use the basic powers of their marks. If everything supernatural stops working, it's a little different. Sharn would face severe problems if its lifts and skysleds failed - the starvation of those who are now cut off from even the possibility of ransacking a storehouse is all but assured. There are several places which don't even have stairs or ladders connecting them to lower levels - Skyway is completely screwed, in fact, since its towers and residents will tumble from the sky into Menthis and Central Plateaus. The lightning rail, airships, speaking stones - transport and communications will be effectively severed, excepting for those affiliates of the dragonmarked houses who operate mundane vessels. House Lyrandar, for instance, might come through okay, because they dominate regular shipping in any case. House Vadalis will still have its breeding stock of mundane and fantastic animals, even if they can't control or alter them with magic anymore. House Deneith will still have armies of well-trained mercenaries and numerous capable bodyguards, and would actually become even more important in the chaos which is sure to follow the disappearance of magic. The Argonth crashes. The Towers of Arcanix fall. The Gatekeeper seals keeping the daelkyr trapped in Khyber fail. Hahahahaha.
Edymnion 06-17-07, 08:20 PM	Honestly, Eberron does not work without magic. It would completely destroy the setting, and would likely kill the vast majority of the humanoids considering that the bulk of the setting is almost entirely dependant upon magic for things like, you know, just getting food on their tables. Seriously, you'd do better removing WATER from the setting than you would be trying to remove magic.
mhacdebhandia 06-17-07, 08:43 PM	You monster! Think of the sahuagin! But, you know, with After The Bomb and Fallout as your inspirations, I don't think the death of 95% of the population is going to deter you from the experiment.
gensuke626 06-17-07, 08:57 PM	Quickly! We Gotta Get to SharnVault! it holds the key to our Survival!
andrewknaut 06-17-07, 08:59 PM	agreed actually i thought of all the stuff, like Sharn falling to peaces and such, and that just made me giggle. It would be chaos and that is what would make it fun. I also have looked into Iron Hero's and may try something like that. I didn't think about the delkar, that will make it even more fun. Right now I'm trying to get my hands on any after math movie I can, and I'm re playing fall out 2, so i have a good idea of what life would be like. As well I am trying to figure out if my pcs can use magic. I'm thinking of having them be allowed, but any casting class will have a +1 level adjustment, as well as a few other restrictions. As well they will have to be very care full about their casting, due to other caster who lost their power and want to rip them apart out of jealousy or fear. Boy it will be fun :D. what other effects could no magic in Eberron cause, the demons are one thing, as well as air ships falling out of the sky and lighting rails stopping. I'm thinking i may allow the Dragonmarked to still use their marks abilities.
mhacdebhandia 06-18-07, 08:39 PM	As I mentioned upthread, even if the dragonmark focus items stop functioning - no lightning rail, no elemental galleons, no airships, no speaking stones - having access to the supernatural powers of their dragonmarks will still leave the houses in a position of relative power. If House Lyrandar can still control the weather with their dragonmarks, for instance, the Raincallers Guild functions as well as it ever did - which would have a powerful economic impact. House Cannith can still fix things. Et cetera.
Edymnion 06-18-07, 09:03 PM	It wouldn't just be big things like Sharn collapsing. The Eldeen Reaches and Breland are the breadbaskets of Khovaire. Nations like Karnnath are simply incapable of growing enough food to feed themselves, and rely greatly on food imports from the other nations just to survive. It would be the same as if you suddenly pulled electricty from the real world, civilization would crumble, hundreds of millions, if not billions of people would die. Sure, there would be survivors, but it would be completely post apocolyptic. And thats not even getting into how many creatures would die. So many magical monsters would die, the ecosystems would likely collapse. Even if the providers didn't die off from the loss of magic, the apex predators would, which would mean populations would explode, strip the area of food, and then starve out. It would, simply put, destroy the setting beyond any and all hope of recognition, at which point there is very little point in using any established setting and just homebrewing it.
andrewknaut 06-19-07, 02:29 AM	see thats what i want, a post apocoliptic world, i think it would be great thanks for the help with some of that stuff were do i find out more about the speaking stones, i haven't really read any of stuff of them thanks again
Adamaro23 06-19-07, 03:06 AM	see thats what i want, a post apocoliptic world, i think it would be great thanks for the help with some of that stuff were do i find out more about the speaking stones, i haven't really read any of stuff of them thanks again Why would you do this to poor Eberron? I agree with Edymnion that it would destroy the setting, personally I would never want to play in this. But it's your campaign. :)
OctaviusIII 06-19-07, 03:24 AM	No magic... that means psionics would take hold. Sarlona would be unaffected and would probably take advantage of the chaos to invade. Meanwhile, the various things that are held back through magical means would break loose, namely demons and Xoriat. In essence, you'd have a planar war going on across a totally defenseless Khorvaire and a well-defended Sarlona. The only silver lining would be the restoration of the Mournland to normalcy, really. You said you wanted an aftermath movie (it's one word, btw), and that war would give you quite the apocolypse. Ultimately, though, it would probably be the Riedrans who would win a pyrrhic victory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory), as the planar struggles often seem to be. I like it: two parts homebrew, one part Eberron, and one helluva thought experiment.
mhacdebhandia 06-19-07, 03:28 AM	were do i find out more about the speaking stones They're basically the magical telegraph machines operated by House Sivis.
andrewknaut 06-20-07, 01:01 AM	im also thinking of having mindflayers fight off the demons, they have their own plans and found some ways to keep casting, so they creat weapons to fight off the demons. I don't know, thats just an idea. I'm thinking of doing it in this campain, cause i don't want them to have a build ment for it, it would tottaly take away from the horrers that is living through the first hit. Have friends that they worked for so many levels to get on their side just die at the wim of gravity and ill luck.
Edymnion 06-20-07, 08:54 PM	im also thinking of having mindflayers fight off the demons, they have their own plans and found some ways to keep casting, so they creat weapons to fight off the demons. I don't know, thats just an idea. I'm thinking of doing it in this campain, cause i don't want them to have a build ment for it, it would tottaly take away from the horrers that is living through the first hit. Have friends that they worked for so many levels to get on their side just die at the wim of gravity and ill luck.Well, there would be no mind flayers or demons after the loss of magic. They are magical creatures, and without magic, they would not survive either. No magic means no dragons, no demons, no undead, no constructs, no magical beasts, and likely the loss of many creatures of the plant type as well.
OctaviusIII 06-20-07, 11:44 PM	By the way, if you're looking for a root cause, I just stumbled upon this little lovely (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=734636) in the CharOp board, provided you want something that does ludicrous amounts of damage, too. As for the survivability of magical creatures, I suppose it depends on how the OP defines magic anyway. If its spells and the like then the creatures would live but they'd be stripped of nearly everything that made them what they are. If its all magical effect, in essence transforming that world into ours, then that would be another thing.
andrewknaut 06-21-07, 12:08 AM	ya im thinking turning their world kind of like ours.. one idea i'm thinking of doing is putting Khorvaire into an anti magic feild
Edymnion 06-21-07, 12:12 PM	Again, at that point, there is no point in even playing Eberron in the first place. Just homebrew.
andrewknaut 06-21-07, 02:33 PM	why you have the ebberon characters, organizations and such, its the idea of what would happen to those specific people after as said what would happen to the dragonmarked as well as the deathless, the druid sects and what not. so really its nothing like doing home brew.
OctaviusIII 06-21-07, 04:09 PM	Again, at that point, there is no point in even playing Eberron in the first place. Just homebrew. With a homebrew system you have to think up the world before and how that world from before changed into the world now. Dramatically altering Eberron - as you said, destroying the setting in an apocalypse - means you have that starting template already. Continents, power groups, nations, and all the rest are already there to work with. A great deal of the flavor is lost, but that's what the DM is for: replacing the lost flavor with something entirely new. It's like homebrew, but having something to start with makes it something different, and makes things a whole lot easier.
andrewknaut 06-22-07, 09:47 AM	exactly
Edymnion 06-23-07, 12:53 PM	With a homebrew system you have to think up the world before and how that world from before changed into the world now. Dramatically altering Eberron - as you said, destroying the setting in an apocalypse - means you have that starting template already. Continents, power groups, nations, and all the rest are already there to work with. A great deal of the flavor is lost, but that's what the DM is for: replacing the lost flavor with something entirely new. It's like homebrew, but having something to start with makes it something different, and makes things a whole lot easier.Still, based on that, how many of those power groups do you think would hold together? Come to think of it, the halflings of Talenta would likely rule the world at that point. Entire nation of self sufficient barbarians that control vicious dinosaurs, they'd become the most powerful group in Eberron, considering how everybody else only holds their power thanks to magic. The Talenta likely wouldn't be effected much, if at all by the loss of magic.
OctaviusIII 06-23-07, 03:48 PM	Still, based on that, how many of those power groups do you think would hold together? Exactly. That's where you DO homebrew it. As for who would rule the world? Riedra. No magic to oppose psionics, and Khorvaire reduced to warring fiefdoms at best. (Invading hordes of Xoriat at worst...) It would be a cakewalk.
decembersfrost 06-23-07, 04:10 PM	Honestly, there's just no point. I heavily agree with Edy on this one, kids. I believe you're -much- better off creating your own world to mess around with. Like he said earlier, Eberron just isn't Eberron without the magic.
OctaviusIII 06-24-07, 03:43 AM	Honestly, there's just no point. I heavily agree with Edy on this one, kids. I believe you're -much- better off creating your own world to mess around with. Like he said earlier, Eberron just isn't Eberron without the magic. No no. That IS the point.
decembersfrost 06-24-07, 03:58 AM	Nono. Seriously, though. If you're just gonna go destroy the world like that, then it really isn't Eberron and you may as well created your own homebrew setting for the idea. I see -no- point in going through with it. None, whatsoever.
OctaviusIII 06-24-07, 07:17 PM	It is homebrew and it uses the ECS as its inspiration. What's wrong with using inspiration?
Rekko 06-24-07, 08:43 PM	Eberron is what it is from its creation to 998YK. Then Eberron becomes what the DM wants. If for some reason a DM wants to play in a style where magic in Eberron disappears or is malfunctionning, either in the whole world or in determined locations, then be it. For those who says that the OP shouldn't do it, come on... he asked you to keep your opinion for yourself. Andrewknaut is in his right to play Eberron as he wants it to be. --- Personally, I have played in a no-magic/psionic (very-very-rare-magic/psionic) homebrewed world named Kinel. I think that the this particular campaign style emphesis on role-play, character interpretion, social interaction, and combat. Feats and skills have a greater use. It was a very fun game to play. A no-magic world can also mean a psionic world. In Eberron, you can either move your campaign to Sarlona, or you can disable magic to see the world as it is known reshape itself. I must say that I play Eberron with magic. However, I like your ideas, Andrewknaut, and I come to add my two coppers. --- The Mourning may have been caused by anything. However, the century-long war and the mighty cataclism feed the nightmares of an entire continent which provides Dal Quor and its inhabitant with tremendious power. The Dreaming Dark, well rooted into Khorvaire were able to build the first Monolith into the Mournland, attracting hundreds of warforged soon to be converted into psyforged. Then, with an army of psyforged, and mind-slave, the Dreaming Dark built more monoliths in Khorvaire, Frostfell, Xen'drik and Sarlona. Enough monoliths to repair the severed connection to Dal Quor. The plane of dreams is remote but it is making its way towards coterminous attracted by the monoliths The monoliths had a secondary effect, it disables magic in a wide region surrounding each monolith, (or disabled magic in the world) making effective magic spot quite rare. Rajahs and Daelkyr broke free. --- I think that if you are willing to put in rare magic for the inhabitants of Eberron that Truename, Pact and Shadow magic would be the best of choices. Pact magic, considering the dragons, the rajahs, the daelkyrs, the quoris, and all their minions, there would be good occasions to use this kind of magic. The creatures could make use of their lesser race puppets in other ways than possession. Truename magic, the Prophecy has revealed large portion of itself. And like it once did, a world-shattering stuggle begins. Truename magic reshapes the world, and with it, the dragonmarked heirs, heirs of the progenitor wyrms, are destined to craft a new world at peace. Shadow magic, in this hour of instability, shadow invades our deepest thought and fills the emptiness of the apocalyptic world. Shadow magic weilders, would try to move away the shadow so a bit of light may shine through. Manifest Zones, planar magic is stronger than the monolith curse and can give back to its inhabitants magical powers that are linked to the plane tied to the manifest zone. Some adventurers have become Planar hunters or Manifest zone hunters, and try to figure out a way to control the manifest zones to murge them all so that magic would be reestablished.
decembersfrost 06-25-07, 01:32 AM	It is homebrew and it uses the ECS as its inspiration. What's wrong with using inspiration? Oh, don't get me wrong! There's nothing wrong with using such a template as inspiration. I'm only saying, you may as well take that template and do up your own homebrew game with it. I never said he had to listen to me, or that he had to stop. Personally, I just think it's a retarded idea, doing it to a world that kinda relies on magic. For those who says that the OP shouldn't do it, come on... he asked you to keep your opinion for yourself. Andrewknaut is in his right to play Eberron as he wants it to be. See above. Except: Telling someone to keep their opinions to themself? You might be better off telling the sun not to shine. Just some food for thought. You -are- on a forum, and to quote you, we all have our own two coppers to share.
Rekko 06-25-07, 07:11 AM	I understand that asking someone not to do something might not stop him from doing it. However, I personally think that the whole idea of this thread is more to develop a no-magic world based on Eberron than debating on if the OP should or shouldn't do it. And I think that you are all smart enough to figure that out, no offense.
Edymnion 06-25-07, 08:38 AM	Exactly. That's where you DO homebrew it.At which point you are essentially left with, at most, the map of Khovaire. The nations wouldn't hold together, the power groups wouldn't hold together, none of the established anything would hold together. At the very most you get the map and people talking about "the good old days". As for who would rule the world? Riedra. No magic to oppose psionics, and Khorvaire reduced to warring fiefdoms at best. (Invading hordes of Xoriat at worst...) It would be a cakewalk.That one depends on if you use psionic transparency or not. I would be inclined to think that his entire point is to cut out the supernatural altogether, which would include shutting down Psionics as well. Which would mean Sarlona would be in just as big of a mess, if not worse, than Khovaire. At least Khovaire has been through a war and understands self sufficiency to some degree. The Reiderans are so used to being psionically controlled, it would be mass panic when all that broke down. Although, granted, they would recover faster since they have a heavier agricultural emphasis to start with. It is homebrew and it uses the ECS as its inspiration. What's wrong with using inspiration?As an inspiration, nothing. Still trying to call it Eberron afterwards, yeah, thats a problem. I mean, most homebrews basically start out with Greyhawk and add their own changes to it, but you typically don't keep calling it a Greyhawk game when you rewrite 90% of it.
Kreistor2 06-25-07, 09:48 AM	Wow, Edy, you finally started helping answer the OP's question. That stuff on Sarlona is exactly the kind of opinion he wanted to know in the first place. Now, what do you think would happen to Aerenal culture with the loss of magic? The Deathless probably fall over in final death, which has gotta be devastating to the psyche, but I can't see them going down without some kind of fight. Nor can I see anyone really getting to them to tear them a new orifice, so their issolation protects them and allows them to merely change rather than be destroyed... I really don't have time for this thread.
Syltorian 06-25-07, 10:19 AM	If all magic was to cease all of a sudden? It'd be the end of the world... almost literally. It's not only that Skyway will fall on the rest of Sharn, that all the deathless will die and Karrnath may find itself without a king. Not even that all of a sudden, most of the defences of Dreadhold will fall, that the country will plunge into economic crisis, infrastructure breakdown, famine, plague and riot. Even the Gatekeeper seals ceasing to function and unleashing the Daelkyr will be of little importance to what really matters. The Silver Flame would collapse. Not the physical manifestation in Flamekeep. The very force that keeps the Rajah's bound. Nevermind that the ancient Overlords will be stripped of magic too, you still have to deal with a number of level 40+ outsiders running around, and you have to stop them without magical aids of any kind. And who happen to be immortal (provided that's not magic too, otherwise you might get to eliminate one once and for all before the world enters a new Age of Demons). Even the dragons will have trouble stopping this, without their magic.
Nevarre 06-25-07, 06:18 PM	From everything I've read, magic is CORE to the world of Eberron as we know it, I don't think it's possible to remove it with fundamentally changing everything about the world. As Edy rightly puts, it - you 'could' do it with Psionics, but let's face it - crunch wise, that's just magic by any other name ;) It's you game, so go for it! But I would suggest that you consider Conan or the Iron Kingdoms. Both have magic but they have alternatives (for instance, magic in Conan is usually at the hands of demon worshipping sorcerers. Magic is still evident in the IK, but there are also guns and steamjacks) If you want to remove magic completely, you could always trying D20 modern :D
OctaviusIII 06-25-07, 06:20 PM	Well, it might be that the Rajahs and their ilk are so thoroughly suffused with magic that they simply cease to exist. Perhaps also Eberron itself, the whole Material Plane, becomes anti-magic, repelling the planes into permanent remoteness like Dal Quor. The planar seals wouldn't matter then, because there wouldn't be a plane "there" to break through. Only the Quori would remain, thanks to the prior efforts of the monoliths. If the OP might be seeking to rid the world of the supernatural altogether, then the only things left would be non-outsiders. Personally, I think it would be much more interesting to have a devastating war between Xoriat, Dal Quor and the Demons rage across the world, although when each set foot into Eberron they lost their magic, too. One hundred years later the campaign setting takes place, and the ruins of the sentient races try to rebuilt with the embers of the war dying in the background. The PCs are sent on a journey by one of the last dragons to enter Khyber and find the Womb of Eberron. There they will find the way to remake the world into what it should have been. Or something to that effect :)
Rekko 06-25-07, 11:02 PM	It could also be that common magic has disappeared, and that only powerful, mysterious and hard to acheive ritual spells are what is left of the magical heritage. In a world where magic was mainly used as technology, the poeple of Khorvaire would now turn on sciences and mundane technologies to survive. Because Eberron is so much infused with magic, a "no-magic Eberron" to my eyes is more like a world in which magic has been disabled for some creatures, and/or in some regions. The world itself would be reshaped to that, but the PCs might still be exceptional ones that can carry on arcane and divine magic, or the ones that are skilled with the new mundane technologies. Again, in such a world, the old common magical traditions would not be suitable. For flavor, I'd use Tome of Magic's Pact, Shadow(Planar) and Truename magic.
Edymnion 06-26-07, 08:39 AM	Wow, Edy, you finally started helping answer the OP's question. That stuff on Sarlona is exactly the kind of opinion he wanted to know in the first place.I'm sorry, you seem to have missed... most of the first page. Nations starving, ecosystems collapsing, the Talenta halflings being fairly well off. Yeah, that was the first word I said that could be considered answering the question, you're right.
andrewknaut 06-27-07, 02:41 AM	thanks a lot Rekko for all your help your idea is good, however my party dosn't really know much about the casters outside the basics. However i will keep those three ideas you said in mind for them. As well i personally dont like psionics, i know it would work well with this idea, but my players dont want to play them and i dont want to run them. Finally to those who think this is a bad idea, i think it would be a bad idea to have a nuckler fall out in the world, but their are people out there who write about it. Just cause one person thinks of the idea dosn't mean its going to happen. The fun of this idea is that Eberron WONT work wihout magic and their for is screwed, just like our world would be if we no longer had electricty. And their go we are playing a roll in a game. I think I'm going to read a bit more into the history, but as far as i've gotten it down so far is that the world is covered in an anti-magic feild. However this feild may ( i am not sure) not work on supernatural abilites, so just magic abilites. As well dragon marked abliites will work, so the houses will still have power. As well a new dragon mark is starting to manafest itself, and this mark is allowing people to use magic. This will start riots and all that fun stuff, as well as let my players play casters. I can't wait for the group who may have a wizard or sorcerer with them to run into a group that has a level 20 wizard who survived the fall of Arcanix and lost all his powers. I would be mad to see someone else be able to use the power i once had, i would be so mad i may even attack them. This is the stuff i want to happen in my game, this is what I want my players to go threw. And as well thanks for the thought of the halfings, they will be strong, i didn't even think aobut them.
andrewknaut 06-27-07, 02:54 AM	as for the silver flaim, why wouldn't it stay strong, they still have a voice, a way of telling people the ways, and they have palidens to fight, still high base attack fighters. As well what im thinking may happen is that the flaim falls, letting out both Tira Miron and the demon with her escape. So actully the silver flaim would be even stronger due to their sole creater being alive and kicking in the flesh.
Rekko 06-27-07, 10:37 AM	I just thought about it. Healing Magic doesn't work into the Mournland. --- As for adding a new dragonmark... (watch out Edy is going to bull rush you for that :P ) If you want to add another dragonmark, you'll have to master carefully the fluff of the setting. There is a reason why there is thirteen dragonmarks, thirteen houses, thirteen planes, thirteen everything. So adding a mark, the easiest way is to add an Aberrant Dragonmark. However, adding a mark that allows you to play a wizard, in a no-magic world, is very strong. You'll have to put a few requirements to that dragonmark feat. In example, ranks in Knowledge(arcana/divine/magic), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device. I know wizards and clerics don't need to use Use Magic Device to activate a magic item, but I'd personnally think that in such a world anyone would need the skill to use them. Magic items in such a world would be hard to craft, not because the knowledge would be gine, but because the talent would vanish. However, you'll have to choose between to options for already existing magic items. At the moment the casters are no more able to cast, are the magic items disabled or not? If not, Use Magic Device for all. If they are disabled, do they all become mundane items that have a high chance of not functionning, or are their powers become limited? Coming back to adding a new dragonmark, I told you the easy way. Now the ard way would be to add a new plane, a new moon, a new dragonmark, a new house. Another hard way, Vol is finally destroyed. The Mark of Death finally vanishes, and a new mark takes the lead. Or, simply, the Mark of Death is reborned at last. --- As for the Silver Flame, I suppose that you might want to make a selection of the things you want not affected by this lack of magic. Maybe only arcane magic was disabled and divine magic is the last hope. In that case, I'd heal the connection to Dal Quor (Giants used arcane), make several seals that prevent Xoriat from invading malfunction (Gatekeepers could have used a mix of arcane and divine), the Silver Flame could lose some brightness (even if it's all divine, the force of magic is shakened). In a world where only divine exist, there would probally be more adepts of many religions. First, because the world begins to become apocalyptical. Second, because weilders of arcane magic, or apprentices, might want to tap into the divine magic that still works. People would need to unify under some banner to resist this new threat. I'd say that there might be more adepts of the Cults of the Dragon Below if Fiends and Aberrations are released on the surface of Eberron. Children of Winter would have an interesting role, while the other druidic sects might either fight for survival, unite under the wisedom of the Gatekeepers and Olian, or be shattered and what is left of them tries to raise a new organisation that would fight off the aberrations and/or the fiends. --- You might also consider the possibility of another "planar invasion". You may choose another 'evil' invader, but you could also choose a 'good' invader. I'd like to see the fearies of Thelanis share their mystical powers with the lesser race. I already talked about possession, but there's also channeling. Angels might want to stick their nose in the problems of Eberron in this manner. --- As for you and your players not wanting to play with psionics, you'll have to decice if you keep the Dreaming Dark or not. You'll have to decide if the Quori invasion did happened in the Age of Giants. You'll have to decide what becomes of Sarlona and the Kalashtars. I don't have alot to suggest here since I play with psionics. But i'd keep all the psionic-related fluff and say it's arcane magic. You'd have only to add a few powers (like mind-seed) to the Inspireds and Kalashtars spell-lists. --- As for Tome of Magic, I'd suggest you go to your gaming store, or local library, and have a peek of what's inside. The systems are not so complicated, and the classes inside might take the places of wizards and clerics in a no-magic world. Rekko
Kreistor2 06-27-07, 09:04 PM	I'm sorry, you seem to have missed... most of the first page. Nations starving, ecosystems collapsing, the Talenta halflings being fairly well off. Yeah, that was the first word I said that could be considered answering the question, you're right. The difference was that you actually got specific. You dealt with one entity and its changes, rather than discounting it all with global or generic handwaves. Saying "nations would collapse" is different from saying, "The loss of magic would cause House Cannith to lose most of the power sources for tis machinery, and so productivity would drop to the floor. The Blacksmiths Guild would once become preminent, and Cannith would wane since it has no inherent advantage anymore. Slower production of farm implements reduces productivity per farmer, meaning the cities start to starve. Economies collapse for want of food, and an exodus into the rural lands begin. This initially comes with the slaughter of farmers by crazed mobs of urbanites, but that dies off when they discover that they lack the skills to use the tools, and so they starve anyway. It takes a couple years, but a new agrarian society builds up, because it is the only option left. Nations want to exploit this weakness in their neighbours, but everyone is suffering the same, so no one has the economy to support an army of invasion. Nations collapse as economic entities, but their borders don't change since no one has the manpower to devote to invasion and occupation." Of course that is incomplete, because there's Droaam on Breland's border, and it wouldn't suffer so much from that aspect of the loss of magic, but I'd think that the loss of the hags and their magic might cause clan/tribal fighting for dominance in the new power vaccuum, keeping them from more than border raids against Breland. And so on. It's a pretty complex and involved task the OP is undertaking.
Edymnion 06-30-07, 12:20 AM	It's a pretty complex and involved task the OP is undertaking.Which goes back to my original point. If he's going to do this, Eberron is *NOT* the setting to use as the base, as you will literally have to rewrite everything from the ground up anyway. Using something like Faerun would be easier to use as a base because it subscribes to the oldschool "normal medieval world with magic tossed on top", which would let you keep a good many of the power groups in play, even without magic. Eberron just totally falls apart without it's magic, to the point that any benefit you gain from using an established setting as your base is lost when you don't actually have any of that original setting left. I mean, no magic and the Shifters, Changelings, Kalashtar, and the Warforged all vanish as viable PC races. Shifters could no longer shift, changelings could no longer change, the kalashtar no longer have their dual spirit link, and the WF would just basically shut down if magic were completely removed. The new base class and NPC class (Artificer and Magewright) are lost, there just honestly isn't enough of the setting really left to be of any real use.
Phalo 06-30-07, 01:30 AM	I was thinking about what would happen if ebberon was subjected to an anitmagic field. Assuming transparancy with psionics. 1. monk just became the most awesome class in the game. 2. Dargun and Droam are going to attack. Even if monsters lose their magic an ogre is still and ogre. 3. Sharn is ruined. 4. Mage Towers are ruined 5. delkr are going to die. They kept crazy aggressive minions around and now they are not anymore powerful than the minions. 6. deathless and undead are ok just don't get any magic. (summoned\undead creature can enter an Antimagic field) 7. the world will slowly fall to undeath due to shadows draining everyone. 8. the planes coming close won't matter cause they can't cross into ebberon.
Manyfist 06-30-07, 02:58 AM	I suggest looking into Dark Sun for the "post apocalyptic" world feeling. Yes theres magic, however its forbidden to use magic. People will try to kill you (after all its what caused their current state). Water is rare, in fact only one sea has survived and its small and guarded by epic giants, not to mention theirs creatures in there that would scare even the most seasoned vets. Survival is rare, metal is VERY rare and metal items are very expensive. Check it out at www.Athas.org. It functions without magic (not without psionics), however it can be doable without Psionics or Magic. However Eberron well... without magic, everything that remotely gives Eberron its uniqueness fails.
Sarlax 06-30-07, 03:19 AM	A lot is being said about social collapse, but I don't see a great deal of this happening. While urban centers would fail, most of the population is still based in essentially rural areas and do not depend on magical support. Let's just assume the entire material plane is hit with an Antimagic field. Consider Breland. Sharn falls to the ground, nearly every tower collapsing (since they are supported by the flying buttresses). Hundreds of thousands die in moments. What of the countryside, however? Nothing so dramatic. Their magecrafted shovels will become regular shovels. The food crisis isn't as terrible as it might first seem. With major cities falling to the ground, the lack of things like Lyrandar support to boost food production is offset by the sudden fall in the demand for food: when Sharn's 200,000 die, the farmers in Breland no longer need Lyrandar to help them grow extra food. Remember that Eberron's generally assumed to be a world in which big magic is rare. Small magic is common, but these kinds of items and effects aren't so significant that their removal will wreck Khorvaire. More important is that many monstrous races are suddenly at an incredible advantage (unless they have a highly magical nature sustaining them, perhaps such as deathless or inspired, but that's beyond the scope of antimagic). The goblinoids of Darguun, for instance, will be very well set: they are already militarized and depend much less on magic than other humanoids but they have technology and settlements, unlike the halflings. The Valenar will also be well off. Droaam will be a big problem for everyone. All of these tough monsters have been organized but the sudden loss of control by the daughters will lead to a civil war between some and others flooding into Breland. On the upside, the world largely belongs to the mortals. The rakshasas, quori, daelkyr, etc. all become largely irrelevant. The dragons will actually be empowered in many ways; they still have all of their raw physical power and great intelligence. Just some thoughts.
Rekko 06-30-07, 08:12 AM	The magic could have been drained from the world/Khorvaire by the Dragons to prepare against a new threat or to recover from great damages. It might be a secondary effect to the Mourning. It could be that the planes on very rare occasion all happen to be remote at the same time. It could be a warning from Eberron itself before the industrial revolution goes too far.
Rauric 06-30-07, 11:28 AM	UD and Deathless would fall apart right? They are powered by magic I thought? The Laz Princes may start trying to conquer the mainland. The Silver Flame will vanish and it's Faith would possibly collapse without the Voice and the Keeper. Some magical races would go "inert" or just die. Meduseas are less effective now. Any selfsufficient group that rarley relied on magic for income or resources become top dogs. I guess the setting becomes Game of Thrones. Go try that one. ;)
Phalo 06-30-07, 11:40 AM	UD and Deathless would fall apart right? They are powered by magic I thought? The Laz Princes may start trying to conquer the mainland. The Silver Flame will vanish and it's Faith would possibly collapse without the Voice and the Keeper. Some magical races would go "inert" or just die. Meduseas are less effective now. Any selfsufficient group that rarley relied on magic for income or resources become top dogs. I guess the setting becomes Game of Thrones. Go try that one. ;) Nah the Undead and deathles stay together if they enter anitmagic field as do summon creatures. On the other hand most of Karranth undead are controlled by those capes so you now have legions of uncontrolled undead. And no priests/mages to control them Zombie Maddness. golems and warforged would be ok too.
Edymnion 06-30-07, 12:28 PM	The magic could have been drained from the world/KhorvaireNow if you run with that idea, you get a really cool way to do this. For some reason, magic is slowly draining away. It gives everyone time to realize "Oh crap, this is happening, we have to prepare for it!" that would prevent much of the collapse of civilization, and you could even introduce a new catagory of magic items, "magice resevoirs". Magic is still there, its just that now its so weak you can't just throw a fireball, it can't be done, because you can't gather that much magic to fuel it that quickly. Instead, you spend 8 hours a day slowly gathering magical energy to store in your resevoir. It holds magical energy the way a spellbook holds known spells (as in, instead of taking up pages in the book, they take up magical energy "units" in the resevoir). You essentially switch from Vancian casting to a mana point system, where the character does not get mana points, the resevoirs do, and the higher your level, the more effecient you get at culling mana from the environment (aka, you can only pull in say 5 points per 8 hour attempt at lvl 1, while you could do 100 points in 8 hours at level 20, or something like that). You could even have cities like Sharn still standing by use of massive magical collectors not unlike the monoliths in Sarlona. Basically, make magic much more rare, but still out there. You could base the entire campaign easily enough on the PCs trying to figure out whats happening to the magic in the world. Is it a natural drain, or is something out there sucking it all up for themselves? Is it temporary, or is it permanent? Maybe Siberys is about to regenerate himself, and his remains are sucking up all the magical energy in the world in preperation for the most epic True Ressurection spell in the history of existance. Maybe the Cult of the Dragon Below are syphoning all magical energy off to fuel one massive strike at Khyber's prison in an attempt to free him. Maybe magic is simply dying altogether and the world will become completely mundane one day, with things like dragons and wizards fading into myth and legend so a bunch of geeks with dice can play make believe, that sort of thing. ;)
Rauric 06-30-07, 12:34 PM	Nah the Undead and deathles stay together if they enter anitmagic field as do summon creatures. On the other hand most of Karranth undead are controlled by those capes so you now have legions of uncontrolled undead. And no priests/mages to control them Zombie Maddness. golems and warforged would be ok too. I am talking about no magic. If it is gone totally. Not an antimagic zone. No magic means most of the fantastic impossible stuff in Eberron just ***POOF** goes away or falls apart.
Manyfist 06-30-07, 03:55 PM	The food crisis isn't as terrible as it might first seem. With major cities falling to the ground, the lack of things like Lyrandar support to boost food production is offset by the sudden fall in the demand for food: when Sharn's 200,000 die, the farmers in Breland no longer need Lyrandar to help them grow extra food. Many of the farms are ran by magic. Magic is in the lives of Rural areas too, after all only select areas are fertile, and to supply most of Khorvaire and if all of Eberron was put through an Anti-magic then the small magic helped to run the farms would lead to disaster. More than 200,000 would die, more than 2/3 of Khorvaire might find them selves in a pinch.
OctaviusIII 06-30-07, 07:30 PM	The collapse of civilization is due to the collapse of the economy, which would be due to the collapse of magic, and the rampaging hordes of mundane-yet-powerful creatures/armies. Come to think of it: yes, Darguun would suddenly be rather important. They'd start expanding their empire again, although this time it would be through a rape and pillage campaign. Breland and Zilargo would be rather helpless, given their militaries' reliance on magic for communication and the like. Still, I'm sure artificers would suddenly take up engineering and courier by flying beast would swiftly replace Sivis's magical communications network.
Rekko 06-30-07, 11:51 PM	Now if you run with that idea, you get a really cool way to do this. For some reason, magic is slowly draining away. It gives everyone time to realize "Oh crap, this is happening, we have to prepare for it!" that would prevent much of the collapse of civilization, and you could even introduce a new catagory of magic items, "magice resevoirs". It might not have been cleared at first, but I always thought (for the purpose of this thread only) that magic would gradually faint from Eberron. The *POOF-it's-gone* scenario is something much more dramatic, and the setting would completely be disfigured in that case.
Edymnion 07-01-07, 03:14 PM	It might not have been cleared at first, but I always thought (for the purpose of this thread only) that magic would gradually faint from Eberron. The *POOF-it's-gone* scenario is something much more dramatic, and the setting would completely be disfigured in that case.Ah, see, this is an important piece of information. I at least was working under the assumption you meant that everything magical just flipped off like a lightswitch one day. If it slowly faded away over a matter of years or decades, the setting could survive, because it would have time to adjust.
Hideous Phidias 07-01-07, 09:16 PM	so i've wanted to play an after math, or fall out form of dnd for a while, and one way i thought of doing this was just cut out magic. Magic to a person in dnd is easily equal if not more important to a person that electricity is to us. So i was just wondering if anyones thought of this already in Eberron? I have a few ideas of how to bring around the no magic thing, but i want other peoples opinion. and ya, i know its going to be a lot of work, please don't bother saying just don't do it, cause it's just an idea I'm playing around with right now. Thanks Cutting out magic in DnD is like wanting to drain out the all the blood of a person to make them better. I could see putting a cap on magic or making it more rare but none at all. I mean who would want to play, there would belittle point it would just be a you vs the goblins, everyone else seems to have magic powers today. No more dragons, magic beast, outsiders ,aberations demans, devils,or fey. If you want a world with out magic then go to work.
Rekko 07-01-07, 09:56 PM	Cutting out magic in DnD is like wanting to drain out the all the blood of a person to make them better. I could see putting a cap on magic or making it more rare but none at all. I mean who would want to play, there would belittle point it would just be a you vs the goblins, everyone else seems to have magic powers today. No more dragons, magic beast, outsiders ,aberations demans, devils,or fey. If you want a world with out magic then go to work. If you read the other posts, you could have seen that we all went over that fact. The remaining posters are poeple who don't give a damn about what the OP does in his game but are willing to help him even so. andrewknaut, do you have more specifications on what would happen to the magical beast/monsters of Eberron. Which type of magic is truly affected by this sort of disaster. Do spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and the like also vanish? Or only spellcasting disappears. What about magic item already existing, and creation of magic items? etc. Some of us here are willing to help you, but we would need more specific details about the game you want to play. Edy, I'm glad we finally understand each other. Rekko
Demangel 07-02-07, 01:28 AM	TBH I don't know why people are giving the OP's ieas so many boo's and hisses... I saw it said several times in different ways, but this was the general sentiment: "Whats the point of using Eberron if your just going to destroy it? Eberron isn't Eberron unless it's Eberron!" I beg to differ. Part of what makes a "fallout" style game, or post apocalyptic game, is that it takes the familiar, and smashes it to bits, and part of the fun is seeing how those bits fit together afterward. Indeed, the entire idea behind this is to try and think up what might/could happen to Eberron... Indeed, a slow decline doesn't mean anything except a different kind of campaign entirely... It doesn't make it any more like Eberron. The point is, the OP wants to use a well established and fleshed out setting... This makes the work of "blowing it up" an easier process. He will already know the attitudes and capabilities of everyone and everything right up to the collapse.... This provides him with the base from which to create an alternate timeline. Maybe the story revolves around the reawakening of magic? Ever think of that? Indeed, the very reason why Eberron is MORE ideal than Forgettable realms is because eberron relies so heavily upon magic. IT IS a parallel to our own world where our modern society is so reliant upon computers and electricity. It is THIS PARALLEL which likely draws the OP to using Eberron. It could give the OP opportunities to explore real world issues in a fantasy setting much more easily than in FG. The loss of 95% of the population DOES sound like what the OP wants... Imagine adventures exploring the ruins of Sharn... instead of the ruins of Xendrik. To the OP: One theme I would use, is the idea that magic items can and do still function, but not all of them... Basically, whatever stopped magic from working, destroyed most magic items and so on as well... But there is still enough for intrepid heroes (or villains) to find if they dig deep enough. Furthermore, magic (as in casting spells) IS still possible, but rare... and also for one reason or another outlawed. Maybe magic is slowly starting to reemerge in the Eberron setting... allowing the one or more of the PC's to be a spell caster. However in that case, I would not reccomend any players being things like wizards... but sorcerers and clerics might make more sense, with wizard being something you can become later on or only with a good background desciption... The idea being that magic as a learned ability through study is no longer possible as the very things that used to work, no long work, and the learning materials that might lead to spell creation are lost or largely destroyed. Furthermore... Maybe the people, or some power that survives the cataclysm blames magic and it's misuse/overuse on the destruction of civilization and so many lives lost, and thus those with magic are outlawed, hunted and persecuted. While others feel magic users are a sign of hope and their return might mean salvation for the world, a chance to rebuild etc. Just like in games like fallout, most technology is in ruin and or decay... A thing we think of as common or simply is either rare, or it's remains are used as something else. I personally feel there would be MORE work involved with creating a purely home brew world and then blowing it up than taking Eberron and blowing it up. While I feel no urge to play such a campaign at the cost of playing all others... However as a side game, playing in a post apocalyptic Eberron does indeed sound very very intriguing... just seeing how the broken pieces fit together is half the fun of post apoc stories... I see it as being a fun game for those already familiar with the setting... What for example, would "Planet of the Apes" been, without Charlton Heston finding the statue of liberty ruined in the sand? The big reveal of the first campaign could thus be: Holy crap... This is Eberron!
Rekko 07-02-07, 11:32 AM	The big reveal of the first campaign could thus be: Holy crap... This is Eberron! :)
andrewknaut 07-03-07, 03:24 AM	Hey, thanks a lot for all your help and I'm still trying to figure out how everything is going to work out Rekko so I can not really say. What I'm thinking is it works exactly like an anti-magic field. And one thing that was said is that hero's can cast spells, well one idea I had was one type of dragon stone that has been around for a long time and thought useless has now been found out to allow magic work if cast in the same area as the stone. This would allow players to use spells, and even npcs, so its not completely cutting it out, and i was going to pick a small town that is on top of a dragonstone mine and have it close to Sharn so the refuges go their and it becomes the new metropolis. As well i was thinking of letting people with action points to spend them to cast without having to use the new type of dragonstone. These are the ideas I'm starting to go with, sorry i don't know much direction still.
Rekko 07-03-07, 10:55 AM	When you speak of dragonstone, did you meant dragonshards? SPELLCASTING TALENT[GENERAL] You can use your spellcasting abilities. Prerequisite: Able to cast spells as a class ability/monster ability, action points. (maybe more depending on what are the benefits) Benefit: not sure yet, either make them pay one action point per spell cast, either make them pay X action points for 24 hours, etc. Special: A wizard may take this feat as a bonus feat.
Edymnion 07-03-07, 01:27 PM	Special: A wizard may take this feat as a bonus feat.Heh, you might want to look up what level the Wizard starts getting his bonus feats at. ;)
Sarlax 07-03-07, 03:51 PM	Many of the farms are ran by magic. Magic is in the lives of Rural areas too, after all only select areas are fertile, and to supply most of Khorvaire and if all of Eberron was put through an Anti-magic then the small magic helped to run the farms would lead to disaster. I don't dispute that magic is used in Khorvaire's agriculture, but how much do you think it really saturates it? Are their golem-tractors harvesting grain? Water elementals turning mill wheels? Air elementals scattering seeds? The locations in Khorvaire that are really saturated with magic have always seemed to me to be few and far between. Places like Sharn are the exception. Is there evidence that the farmers depend on magic so heavily? At most, it seems they use some Lyrandar rain and Vadalis animals to boost productivity with Orien or Lyrandar shipping their goods. There's just not enough magic to precipitate a social collapse in the countryside.
elondir 07-03-07, 05:10 PM	D&D without magic is called D20 Past. Replace Heal with Treat Injury, and make places like Sharn normal cities instead of wondrous ones. The Mournland is not magic but poisonous and radioactive. Warforged are merely intelligent robots and are not alive. No psionics either. The planes would not connect with Eberron since there is no magic. The lightning rail and airships would not exist. The Daelkyr, Demons, and Quori would be able to manifest freely since there would be no magic to seal them away. Combat would be much more lethal. There would be no zombie legions, no golems, and maybe not even fey since they have a close relation with magic. Monsters would rely on extraordinary abilities instead of supernatural abilities. The no-magic game scales linearly with power instead of geometrically. In other words, doubling the power level would double the CR instead of adding 2, since it would scale with fighter's BAB instead of wizard's spells. I'm not sure I'd want to try that harsh with Eberron or FR, seeing how magic is so important to their campaign. Actually, if you want no magic, try Lankhmar or a historical campaign set during the crusades or the hundred years' war.
korcheck 07-03-07, 05:42 PM	Um I don't know if its mentioned in here or not but if there is no magic then the BBEG's and dragons are not really a problem anymore either they exists because magic allows them to do so or in the case of some their existance is completely mitagated due the their loss of magic a demon is just a big ugly brute with out magic and while they may be tough still they are substantually weakened none the less. the LoD are just walking tiger people without magic and the LoB is just so much spare parts etc. etc.
andrewknaut 07-03-07, 06:09 PM	When you speak of dragonstone, did you meant dragonshards? *cough* of course :P
Sarlax 07-04-07, 04:33 PM	Um I don't know if its mentioned in here or not but if there is no magic then the BBEG's and dragons are not really a problem anymore either they exists because magic allows them to do so... Dragons are still extremely powerful without their magic. They are killing machines and possess incredible intelligence. Being strong and/or smart are advantages that doesn't vanish with magic. Quori mindseeds will still have Intelligence in the 20+ range. Mind flayers likewise retain their genius, as do the daelkyr. Ogre magi are still a race superior to humans. Sahuagin continue to rule the oceans. Don't forget the other advantage of these many monsters: racial HD. While the bane of PCs, racial hit dice are wonderful for monsters as they provide automatic feats, skills, saves, and combat prowess upon reaching adulthood. A human is almost always a first-level commoner at age 20, but creatures like mind flayers are expert warriors, academics, and diplomats even without psionic talents. The monsters who are hurt most by this are those with weak racial HD who depend on their supernatural abilities: changelings come to mind. Changelings will just become mudface half-elves! The kalashtar lose the link the possess with their quori spirits, while the Inspired are suddenly without inspiration.
Edymnion 07-04-07, 07:16 PM	I don't dispute that magic is used in Khorvaire's agriculture, but how much do you think it really saturates it? Are their golem-tractors harvesting grain? Water elementals turning mill wheels? Air elementals scattering seeds?No, but I would expect that there are travelling druids that basically go around and cast the various plant boosting spells over the fields to ensure productive harvests, or at least someone with a wand of those spells.
Sarlax 07-04-07, 08:22 PM	No, but I would expect that there are travelling druids that basically go around and cast the various plant boosting spells over the fields to ensure productive harvests, or at least someone with a wand of those spells. It'll probably be artificer-created Wands of Plant Growth employed by Raincallers, but sure. Even so, that's a limited area (225 GP per mile of diameter) and it's only a 1/3 increase in productivity. The decreased demand from cities will compensate for the lost surplus.
Rekko 07-04-07, 09:53 PM	From the ECS p.16 Today, new kalashtar are born, not possessed; neither spirit nor human, they are a race that beeds true. Therefore, modern kalashtar don't have a link with a quori spirit, so they can't loose it and loose their psi-like abilities. Does a no-magic world also negates supernatural abilities, spell-like abilities? Rekko
Edymnion 07-04-07, 10:12 PM	From the ECS p.16 Therefore, modern kalashtar don't have a link with a quori spirit, so they can't loose it and loose their psi-like abilities. Does a no-magic world also negates supernatural abilities, spell-like abilities? RekkoNo, they still have the link to the quori spirit, its just that they are born with it, its part of their nature. They aren't posessed, they are blended.
Manyfist 07-04-07, 10:14 PM	No, but I would expect that there are travelling druids that basically go around and cast the various plant boosting spells over the fields to ensure productive harvests, or at least someone with a wand of those spells. I couls see that especially around the Eldeen Reaches which are the riches farm lands and the fact that many the farmers rely on the Dragonmarks to help grow their crops. Not to mention, insecticide which is probably magical in nature as well. 1/3 of crops are ruined by pests around the world. No, they still have the link to the quori spirit, its just that they are born with it, its part of their nature. They aren't posessed, they are blended. However thier foes the Inspired are possessed, and sarlona wouldn't be much of a mystery if there was no Inspired.
Rekko 07-04-07, 10:15 PM	No, they still have the link to the quori spirit, its just that they are born with it, its part of their nature. They aren't posessed, they are blended. Ok, but even so, I don't think it's a good idea to flush the spirit connection away just because there's no magic.
korcheck 07-04-07, 11:01 PM	Dragons are still extremely powerful without their magic. They are killing machines and possess incredible intelligence. Being strong and/or smart are advantages that doesn't vanish with magic. Quori mindseeds will still have Intelligence in the 20+ range. Mind flayers likewise retain their genius, as do the daelkyr. Ogre magi are still a race superior to humans. Sahuagin continue to rule the oceans. Don't forget the other advantage of these many monsters: racial HD. While the bane of PCs, racial hit dice are wonderful for monsters as they provide automatic feats, skills, saves, and combat prowess upon reaching adulthood. A human is almost always a first-level commoner at age 20, but creatures like mind flayers are expert warriors, academics, and diplomats even without psionic talents. The monsters who are hurt most by this are those with weak racial HD who depend on their supernatural abilities: changelings come to mind. Changelings will just become mudface half-elves! The kalashtar lose the link the possess with their quori spirits, while the Inspired are suddenly without inspiration. I have always believed annd thought that the only reason dragons can fly is due to magic. I chose not to bring the quori into the debate due to the whole psi connection but they would be forever trapped in the dream world without magic... I think... A daelkyr is only a high lvl critter without magic. As for HD, big deal SO they have some racial ability or another. Base line you put a 7th lvl fighter heck i'd even throw my 5th lvl pally against any ogre mage on the terrain of your choosing and win they no longer have magic and the HD only gives them 5d8 and few skills their big, smart, and tough sure but only as opposed to a commoner. This goes the same for most of what you said and the creatures you suggested. The Sahuagin have never been more then a menace I don't know why you brought them into the picture. I wrote a comment about BBEG's not minor nuisances. The point in my statement was that the BBEG'S would be effectivley hamstrung by the loss of magis and no longer the world changing end of life they once were.
Rekko 07-04-07, 11:04 PM	You could always rule that the BBEG aren't affected by the loss of magic, maybe they are the cause behind the phenomena. You could also rule that only the lesser race lost their magical talent.
Manyfist 07-05-07, 03:55 AM	Then again it could be like the Time of Trouble in FR where Magic was somehow thrown off balance for a span of a 100 years or so. Maybe the Mournland caused it on it's "Birthday" as a weird side-affect. However it would be cool to see the last 50 years all magic except for a powerful few beings kept the magic. After the 105th "Birthday" of the Mourning magic slowly seeps back through. However its doomed to repeat the cycle every other century. Slowly seeping and leaking back through.
Edymnion 07-05-07, 08:45 AM	Dragons are still extremely powerful without their magic.Yes, they would still be strong, but nowhere near the killing machines they used to be. If memory serves, their ACs would drop substantially, and they would lose their breath weapon. They'd essentially be reduced to nothing more than smart dinosaurs.
korcheck 07-05-07, 10:10 AM	Yes, they would still be strong, but nowhere near the killing machines they used to be. If memory serves, their ACs would drop substantially, and they would lose their breath weapon. They'd essentially be reduced to nothing more than smart dinosaurs. His comment was unfoundable IMO. With the exception of two he based it off of a very select few sets of monsters that as I said were not really BBEG's.
andrewknaut 07-05-07, 12:19 PM	You could always rule that the BBEG aren't affected by the loss of magic, maybe they are the cause behind the phenomena. You could also rule that only the lesser race lost their magical talent. I am actually going that rout. I have the day of mourning as a huge conspiracy as a first step to something big. This is going to be that something big. Vol, Green dragons, Rakshasa and groups of humans being used by the stronger groups set this whole thing in motion. And they will know of the dargonshards that will be able to let people still cast, so they will still have power. How I think I'm going to treat the dragonshards is they have X charges and when you cast a spell you drain X of those charges were X is the level of the spell, however i don't know how I'm going to do supernatural abilities.
Sarlax 07-05-07, 01:02 PM	Yes, they would still be strong, but nowhere near the killing machines they used to be. If memory serves, their ACs would drop substantially, and they would lose their breath weapon. They'd essentially be reduced to nothing more than smart dinosaurs. Their AC doesn't change as it isn't derived from supernatural or spell-like abilities. They may even keep their DR; it isn't typed as EX or SU in the MM entry. "Smart dinosaurs" is selling them short. They aren't just smarter than reptiles; most varieties are born with intelligence equal to or greater than that of human beings. They still both blindsense and keen senses. They are still immune to the related energy type. They can still more habitats than a human being and can still eat almost anything to survive. As a race, they possess a wealth of knowledge about the world. His comment was unfoundable IMO. My comment was quite foundable, I assure. First, note that you said, "BBEG's and dragons are not really a problem anymore either they exists because magic allows them to do so," marking them as separate groups. I then went on to explain how dragons are still a problem. Magic doesn't cause them to exist and they can get by just without it. As for BBEGs, the absence of magic doesn't just impact adventuring PCs. The thread is about more than how PCs will fight arch-villians. It's also about how the world will change. Even if you only want to talk about organizations ruled by evil monsters, many of these still pack a punch. The Cults of the Dragon Below are still led by super-geniuses. The Lords of Dust still have centuries of knowledge about the world and minions throughout. It's the humanoids who are really doomed. While the countryside will escape the immediate apocalypse faced by those in magic-intense places like Sharn, they'll be mostly defenseless when the monsters come. Base line you put a 7th lvl fighter heck i'd even throw my 5th lvl pally against any ogre mage... Okay, let's do that. Let's take a 7th-level fighter. He's probably at about +12/+7 melee (strength, weapon focus, masterwork), maybe +10/+3 ranged. Maybe he uses a greatsword and deals 2d6+8 damage per strike (Str 18 at hand-an-a-half bonus, +2 specialization). Maybe he's at AC 19 (full plate) and close to 70 HP. Not bad. He might even have something fancy like Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, etc. Compare to the ogre mage: Greatsword +7 melee (3d6+7/19-20) or longbow +2 ranged (2d6/×3). Speed 40. AC 18. Oh, and the kicker: regeneration 5. It's probably impossible for the fighter to kill this guy. The ogre moves at least 10 feet faster (probably 20) and just walks away for a minute to recover all damage taken. He can even use his Combat Expertise feat to bump up his AC while he's recovering. The paladin? He doesn't stand a chance. Remember, these guys no longer have magic backing them up. No flaming bursts, no gauntlets of ogre power, no Cure Light Wounds, no Magic Missiles, no even a lousy bard inspiring courage.
Sarlax 07-05-07, 01:40 PM	Another thought: PC classed characters, particular of that level, are rare. One 7th-level fighter might heroically put down an ogre mage, minotaur, or troll, but how will people stop armies of these monsters? Even the great weapons lying around from the Last War were magically-driven. When hundreds of trolls come pouring out of Droaam, who can stop them? Humanoid communities will probably have to survive by swearing allegiance to powerful creatures who can protect them. It will be true medieval fantasy, with the great lords and kings being those creatures (giants, dragons, etc.) with the personal power to fend off the incredible potency of other monstrous races. Humanoids have little other choice. Without magic, the only potency they have is in classes like barbarian, fighter, ranger, and rogue, but the people capable of taking up any heroic class are very uncommon. They might try alchemy for a bit, but that won't last long (Craft-Alchemy requires that one be a spellcaster and that's a dying tradition on this world).
korcheck 07-05-07, 01:41 PM	Their AC doesn't change as it isn't derived from supernatural or spell-like abilities. They may even keep their DR; it isn't typed as EX or SU in the MM entry. "Smart dinosaurs" is selling them short. They aren't just smarter than reptiles; most varieties are born with intelligence equal to or greater than that of human beings. They still both blindsense and keen senses. They are still immune to the related energy type. They can still more habitats than a human being and can still eat almost anything to survive. As a race, they possess a wealth of knowledge about the world. My comment was quite foundable, I assure. First, note that you said, "BBEG's and dragons are not really a problem anymore either they exists because magic allows them to do so," marking them as separate groups. I then went on to explain how dragons are still a problem. Magic doesn't cause them to exist and they can get by just without it. As for BBEGs, the absence of magic doesn't just impact adventuring PCs. The thread is about more than how PCs will fight arch-villians. It's also about how the world will change. Even if you only want to talk about organizations ruled by evil monsters, many of these still pack a punch. The Cults of the Dragon Below are still led by super-geniuses. The Lords of Dust still have centuries of knowledge about the world and minions throughout. It's the humanoids who are really doomed. While the countryside will escape the immediate apocalypse faced by those in magic-intense places like Sharn, they'll be mostly defenseless when the monsters come. Okay, let's do that. Let's take a 7th-level fighter. He's probably at about +12/+7 melee (strength, weapon focus, masterwork), maybe +10/+3 ranged. Maybe he uses a greatsword and deals 2d6+8 damage per strike (Str 18 at hand-an-a-half bonus, +2 specialization). Maybe he's at AC 19 (full plate) and close to 70 HP. Not bad. He might even have something fancy like Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, etc. Compare to the ogre mage: Greatsword +7 melee (3d6+7/19-20) or longbow +2 ranged (2d6/×3). Speed 40. AC 18. Oh, and the kicker: regeneration 5. It's probably impossible for the fighter to kill this guy. The ogre moves at least 10 feet faster (probably 20) and just walks away for a minute to recover all damage taken. He can even use his Combat Expertise feat to bump up his AC while he's recovering. The paladin? He doesn't stand a chance. Remember, these guys no longer have magic backing them up. No flaming bursts, no gauntlets of ogre power, no Cure Light Wounds, no Magic Missiles, no even a lousy bard inspiring courage. Take your example of the fighter except give him the riding feat group by 7th lvl with a lance and a charge I can do close to 50 points of dmg in one charge turn around and do it again the next charge (if I have another lance or if we don't take the likelyhood of it breaking into account). Or come through with a charge with a bastard sword (with the exoctic wp feat). Your regen is all but useless and so is your speed now if we are on terrian that won't allow this I would go with the ranged feat tree and keep away from you because on uneven terrain your movement is even less. The points are: 1) Its not the creature it is the tactics used by the PC and the DM. 2) Again I was only speaking of the BBEG'S not the minions if you look through any of the MM's with few exceptions the higher a creatures CR the more they rely magic. So in conclusion let me clarify my point for you I do not think that most of the BBEG's will be as much of an issue due to this loss of magic (except that they will apperantly be the only ones with magic by the words of the starter of this thread) most are severly handycapped by this loss.
korcheck 07-05-07, 01:53 PM	Another thought: PC classed characters, particular of that level, are rare. One 7th-level fighter might heroically put down an ogre mage, minotaur, or troll, but how will people stop armies of these monsters? Even the great weapons lying around from the Last War were magically-driven. When hundreds of trolls come pouring out of Droaam, who can stop them? Humanoid communities will probably have to survive by swearing allegiance to powerful creatures who can protect them. It will be true medieval fantasy, with the great lords and kings being those creatures (giants, dragons, etc.) with the personal power to fend off the incredible potency of other monstrous races. Humanoids have little other choice. Without magic, the only potency they have is in classes like barbarian, fighter, ranger, and rogue, but the people capable of taking up any heroic class are very uncommon. They might try alchemy for a bit, but that won't last long (Craft-Alchemy requires that one be a spellcaster and that's a dying tradition on this world). What has stopped these creatures then from coming at us before now? It isn't magic I can assure you because they have their own as well true if they suddenly banded together we may be doomed but who would unite them under one banner? The hags? I think not most of there power derived from magic. The dragons? No again they couldn't give a spit about us. You live under the old DnD game system and are not thinking Eberron, not all monsters are bad, it isn't a clear cut us against them world sarlax. that is I thonk the problem we are having, I see it as a why would they bother you see it I think as a OH NO! no magic wait whats that horde of monster doing coming over that hill at us? Or are we completely misunderstanding each other?
Rekko 07-05-07, 02:36 PM	As I see it, monstrous races from around Khorvaire might unite with the more civilized poeple to stand a slim chance against the BBEGs. Sure there'll be distortion between the two groups, heck even between nationalities, but that just give other role-playing opportunities. As for the stone that enable caster to use magic, you could use a variant of the Cognizance Crystals (XPH p.167). The Casing Shard would be made out of one dragonshard of each type. A Casting Shard would be imbued with a number of mana point/spell slot that spellcasters would use to cast their spells. The Casting Shard must be recharge after it is used. Rekko
Sarlax 07-05-07, 03:49 PM	What has stopped these creatures then from coming at us before now? It isn't magic I can assure you because they have their own as well true if they suddenly banded together we may be doomed but who would unite them under one banner? Magic is definitely the key. Orien and Lyrandar move goods and Sivis keeps people in touch. Imagine a United States in which every telephone, TV, car, plane, radio, and train suddenly and permanently stopped working. That's Khorvaire under this scenario. Boranel can only rule Breland because House Sivis is sending his messages, Orien is delivering nobles, and Lyrandar is shipping food. The nations span huge territories. That's only possible through rapid communication and the quick movement of soldiers. Even in the absence of monsters, the nations would quickly descend into civil war as lords remote from their kings refuse to pay taxes. The reason monsters don't rule this moment (in the open at least) is that th humanoids can organize their resources. If Droaam tried to invade the Five Nations in the default setting, the entire continent would rapidly become aware and be able to send in troops, getting them to the nearest coastline in days via Lyrandar ships. Without magic, however, information travels at the speed of horses and pigeons. You live under the old DnD game system and are not thinking Eberron, not all monsters are bad, it isn't a clear cut us against them world sarlax. that is I thonk the problem we are having, I see it as a why would they bother you see it I think as a OH NO! no magic wait whats that horde of monster doing coming over that hill at us? You're wildly incorrect about my position. I don't believe every creature with a type other than humanoid seeks the destruction of humanoids; this should be clear from my previous post in which I said humanoids will likely depend on monstrous protectors. There are, however, many monstrous groups that are antagonistic towards humans. Darguun would be very well positioned to start conquering its neigbors. The monsters of Droaam are organized primarily by strength and they'd retain much of their organization even if the hags lost power (much as the destruction of Washington D.C. wouldn't cause local state governments to fall apart). How can you possibly know that other groups don't care about humans on Khovaire, especially the dragons? The dragons are currently engaged in two big activities: studying the Prophecy and cold war with the Undying Court. The sigils of the Prophecy may not even survive the death of magic and the Undying Court probably simply ceases to exist at all. With the elimination of their current number one enemy in an instant and the loss of their preoccupying hobby, who knows what the dragons will do? It may be that they've wanted to rule Khorvaire for centuries with only Aerenal keeping them in check.
korcheck 07-05-07, 04:38 PM	While the situation may be touch and go for a while I think magical communication will be the least of their concerns after all the romans, greeks, ottomans, aztecs, egyptians, chenese, turks, etc. did just fine without magic. Some of them were much larger then any nation Eberron has today (except perhaps sarlona). Before you say it I know they didn't have to deal with dragons and such but still.... I will stop disagreeing with you on the monster issue and say that with the right circumstances what you say could happen I just don't find it likely or to last long if it did. I think that Rekko may be closer to the truth than either of us.... no wait you did say something like that as well so that I will agree with you on. IIRC there is mention in one of the source books that the only interest the dragons have with the lesser races is as it concerns the prophecy if there is no more prophecy then they are more likely to seek an answer to that riddle than worry about us. They don't need to worry about the elves if they want to take over the world they just have to go around them. also of they wanted to why didn't they after they destroyed the giants the world was layed out for them. One last thing do you agree with my fighter scenario or not I believe it would be a great fight and would like to here your counter to my statement.
Edymnion 07-05-07, 06:08 PM	Their AC doesn't change as it isn't derived from supernatural or spell-like abilities. They may even keep their DR; it isn't typed as EX or SU in the MM entry.You're right, its their DR they lose. They've got DR X/Magic. Only DR that is bypassed by materials (such as DR X/Adamantine) are mundane. DR that is bypassed by magic, holy, etc is typed as supernatural, and is shut off in an anti-magic zone. So, no breath weapon. No damage reduction. No spell like abilities. While still powerful, without their breath weapon and DR, they are drastically reduced in power, IMO.
Sarlax 07-05-07, 11:47 PM	While the situation may be touch and go for a while I think magical communication will be the least of their concerns after all the romans, greeks, ottomans, aztecs, egyptians, chenese, turks, etc. did just fine without magic. Some of them were much larger then any nation Eberron has today (except perhaps sarlona). The difference here is that real Earth empires developed in tandem with the communication technologies of their times. Khorvaire's nations don't have anything to fall back on - if magic shuts down it is the end of all their big nations. A better comparison between this hypothesized loss of Eberron's magic and a similar problem on Earth would be if every Roman road, bridge, and horse suddenly vanished. One last thing do you agree with my fighter scenario or not I believe it would be a great fight and would like to here your counter to my statement. Well, you'd initially said that the fighter and ogre mage would battle on any terrain... But sure, you can always construct a situation where the fighter will win, particularly since there's no static form for a "fighter" to take but the ogre mage as presented only has one array of talents. Since the ogre doesn't vary in the MM but a fighter can appear in endless varieties, it's easy to build an ogre-killing fighter. Beyond the rarity of such characters (a 7th-level fighter has faced about 80 challenging encounters and lived), this kind of exercise neglects the fact that of these capable warriors there won't be a majority who always have the capacity to bring down the monster. It also neglects that monsters can also gain levels, change their feats, or have elite array ability scores. To keep picking on the poor ogre mage, a couple levels of rogue, ranger, or fighter will be easy to acquire but will also keep the ogre mage on par with many of the continent's better warriors.
korcheck 07-06-07, 10:40 AM	The difference here is that real Earth empires developed in tandem with the communication technologies of their times. Khorvaire's nations don't have anything to fall back on - if magic shuts down it is the end of all their big nations. A better comparison between this hypothesized loss of Eberron's magic and a similar problem on Earth would be if every Roman road, bridge, and horse suddenly vanished. Point made but again the tenacity of man would over come this.... call me an optimist. Well, you'd initially said that the fighter and ogre mage would battle on any terrain... But sure, you can always construct a situation where the fighter will win, particularly since there's no static form for a "fighter" to take but the ogre mage as presented only has one array of talents. Since the ogre doesn't vary in the MM but a fighter can appear in endless varieties, it's easy to build an ogre-killing fighter. Beyond the rarity of such characters (a 7th-level fighter has faced about 80 challenging encounters and lived), this kind of exercise neglects the fact that of these capable warriors there won't be a majority who always have the capacity to bring down the monster. It also neglects that monsters can also gain levels, change their feats, or have elite array ability scores. To keep picking on the poor ogre mage, a couple levels of rogue, ranger, or fighter will be easy to acquire but will also keep the ogre mage on par with many of the continent's better warriors. this is true as well but not how it happened where they are predominent i.e. Sarlona. Just as with NPC's of the world so to go the monsters they are unlikely to take classes because they haven't needed them and it truly takes something special in a person or thing to go the extra mile and take PC levels.
Sarlax 07-06-07, 11:32 AM	Point made but again the tenacity of man would over come this.... call me an optimist. I don't know about tenacity, but humans are perhaps the best suited to survive the transition. The next generation will be in only 15-20 years (fast enough to adapt) and they'll have the extra skill points and feats to deal with the trouble. In other words, humans can easily undergo rapid cultural shifts because they can assign feats to non-professional capacity (a human might take Skill Focus-Craft and Endurance) and take skills needed to survive the new world without losing in the career work. Just as with NPC's of the world so to go the monsters they are unlikely to take classes because they haven't needed them and it truly takes something special in a person or thing to go the extra mile and take PC levels. Yup. So a FTR7 human warrior has a FTR7 ogre mage, FTR 7 mind flayer, and FTR 7 centaur out there to deal with.
Rekko 07-06-07, 11:42 AM	The difference here is that real Earth empires developed in tandem with the communication technologies of their times. Khorvaire's nations don't have anything to fall back on - if magic shuts down it is the end of all their big nations. A better comparison between this hypothesized loss of Eberron's magic and a similar problem on Earth would be if every Roman road, bridge, and horse suddenly vanished. I give you your point only for that last sentence. However, look closely at your timeline. The lesser races and monstrous races of Khorvaire did not always have magewrights or the dragonmarked houses to fill in their needs. This proves that more traditional technologies, and even primitive barbaric technologies once existed and, for more recent tech, still exist. Therefore, if the people of Khorvaire face the threat of losing their spellcasting talent, they will adapt, surely with difficulties, to the mundane technologies. Moreover, losing magic doesn't mean losing all sort of knowledge. Even if architects built Sharn by magical means, they will still know their physics and know that a bridge is constructed in this manner, and that a building is raised in an other way, etc. ECS p.251 CONSIDER THE IMPACT OF HISTORY Thank you korcheck, this debate is truly interesting. Rekko
korcheck 07-06-07, 12:12 PM	Yup. So a FTR7 human warrior has a FTR7 ogre mage, FTR 7 mind flayer, and FTR 7 centaur out there to deal with. ??? HUH? If anything monster races are even less likely to take pc classes BECAUSE of their highly flaunted RHD. RHD are not something they spontaneously recieve upon becomeing an adult it is something that is learned as they grow just like you and I they learn these skill in lew of npc or pc classes. most of the time if you look at their RHD they are no better than if they took lvls in commoner or warrior. this leaves you battleing an oversized peasant with out the other abbilities they recieve this is the point of lvl adjustment. Of course common stock won't stand a chance against this.
Sarlax 07-06-07, 11:45 PM	If anything monster races are even less likely to take pc classes BECAUSE of their highly flaunted RHD. RHD are not something they spontaneously recieve upon becomeing an adult it is something that is learned as they grow just like you and I they learn these skill in lew of npc or pc classes. Are you suggesting that a beholder, instead of taking 11 HD in Aberration, could choose to instead take 11 levels of rogue? This isn't the case. The monsters of the MM represent typical adult specimens of their kind. Their abilities and powers don't represent training. A beholder just grows bigger and bigger until it's all grown up and possesses all of its eye rays and HD. The HD certainly are spontaneous, just not instantaneous. Edit: That being said, of course, they can readjust their feat and skill selections according to the demands of the environment in which they develop. They just can't choose to abort their development in their own species.
Sarlax 07-07-07, 12:05 AM	However, look closely at your timeline. The lesser races and monstrous races of Khorvaire did not always have magewrights or the dragonmarked houses to fill in their needs. This proves that more traditional technologies, and even primitive barbaric technologies once existed and, for more recent tech, still exist. Therefore, if the people of Khorvaire face the threat of losing their spellcasting talent, they will adapt, surely with difficulties, to the mundane technologies. This depends on the rapidity of the cataclysm and most of the tone of the thread seems to have pointed towards a rapid or instant loss of supernatural energy. Likewise, the previous technologies are simply inferior. Even if there are years to prepare, the old ways won't be as good as contemporary magic. Losing the Sivis network is a big deal. Communications can best be replaced by carrier animals or intelligent flying monsters (gargoyles, for instance) but this is still much slower than Sivis. Governments will necessarily become smaller because of the need for proximity to subjects, but the process of shrinking states will likely involve a lot of warfare, with kings and lords sending soldiers to keep bring the rebellious subordinates back in line. Society collapses further with the loss of food production magic. I noted earlier that people in the countryside can tolerate this loss (culturally) because there will be less demand for it in the long run, but urban centers can't. The use of Plant Growth increases yields by a third while Lyrandar rain-calling might push it up even more - even if weather control only represents 1/6th of increased production, the loss of those two elements alone will result in the food supply being halved. The culture of the people can remain somewhat intact, but times will be hard even away from the cities. If magic fades even over 20 years, that means the population need to be cut in half over that period of time. That won't happen without terrible warfare. Moreover, losing magic doesn't mean losing all sort of knowledge. Even if architects built Sharn by magical means, they will still know their physics and know that a bridge is constructed in this manner, and that a building is raised in an other way, etc. It's again a speed issue. If it's slow, there's probably a lot of research (in libraries and in the field) to determine how to live in a world without magic. Most places probably do not depend on magic for engineering purposes - cities like Sharn are the exception. Plenty of bridges, swords, and boots are made without magic at all, I'm sure. If the antimagic effect is rapid, remarkable amounts of knowledge would be lost, particularly since a lot is centralized in cities. Korranberg may lose everything given the apparent reliance on extradimensional spaces. Everything in Morgrave is destroyed instantly. The Twelve plummets to the ground. The extent to which science and magic are blended (like in Sharn's architecture) suggest that many keepers of scientific lore are also the innovators in magic and will likely be lost when their centers of learning are destroyed.
korcheck 07-07-07, 04:05 PM	Are you suggesting that a beholder, instead of taking 11 HD in Aberration, could choose to instead take 11 levels of rogue? This isn't the case. The monsters of the MM represent typical adult specimens of their kind. Their abilities and powers don't represent training. A beholder just grows bigger and bigger until it's all grown up and possesses all of its eye rays and HD. The HD certainly are spontaneous, just not instantaneous. Edit: That being said, of course, they can readjust their feat and skill selections according to the demands of the environment in which they develop. They just can't choose to abort their development in their own species. WRONG! This is the reason why all the races books give you the option to begin a character with an LA at 1HD and work your way up to the full strentgh of the race. The point of the RHD is to show this development it is also the reason I like savage species With it I can throw a weaker vesion of some of more powerful monsters at a low lvl group. RHD are not spontaneous. The difference between a monster and a PC is that they don't get a choice to have npc and pc classes until after these RHD And don't get me started on a beholder they would be dead if this event took place period. I believe that Rekko had the right of it on the last page however, it's more likely that the other monster races would join in with the standard races for protection and oddly enough I think that this is the only world of the published worlds I can see this happening in even though this is a more magic rich enviroment than most otherrs.
Rekko 07-07-07, 08:05 PM	The reason why I think that montrous races would join forces with the more civilized people is simply because they all ready have. I'll explain. Even if two nations have tensions between them, they still do commerce with each other, and so are dependent for certain things on their neighbors. Thus, the nations of Khorvaire and the dragonmarked houses tend to unify the poeple in interdependency on goods and services. (eh eh Market owns the world) Sure some nations may be warring against each other, but when facing a greateer threat I think that the logical thing to do is put aside the old rivalries and unite for survival. This union is only on treaties and other such paper, however, new laws will force collaboration between two rival nations. Their inhabitants will then live next to each other will a bizarre feeling of mixed need and hatred. Some will become good friend with their formal rivals while others will never forget their past. I like the feel of this. Rekko