Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Werebat 03-24-07, 01:33 PM	I have a player who likes to play clerics but never wants to play a cleric who actually worships a god. He relies heavily on one or two lines of text that state that a cleric doesn't need to worship a god and can instead just pick two domains. He ends up thinking of a lot of what I call "domain soup" concoctions that might work well together from a powergaming perspective (cherry picking the best domains -- the last cleric had Travel for the free Ring of Free Action effect and Air for super Air Elementals that sucked all enemies off the battlefield) but don't seem to make any sense from a roleplaying one. Anyway, his latest idea in an upcoming Eberron campaign is to play a "cleric" with no god but access to the Spell and Shadow domains. AFAIKT, in Eberron the Spell domain doesn't really exist and the only way to access the Shadow domain is to be a cleric of the Shadow, or at least the Dark Six. The player doesn't like this and thinks he should be allowed to just pick any two domains he wants like the book says he can. What should I do? Part of me is pretty sure he's got something up his sleeve involving these two domains, because he is very insistent that he HAS to have access to BOTH of them, and only those domains will do, despite the fact that he doesn't actually have a god or philosophy for the cleric to follow. From a roleplaying perspective, does this even make sense in Eberron? CAN an Eberron cleric just pick a domain exclusive to the Dark Six and another domain that doesn't even exist and slap them together without claiming allegiance to any god or church? Thanks, - Ron ^*^
maollelujah 03-24-07, 01:39 PM	I believe the ECS has provisions for this. He can gain cleric abilities for his faith in the Dragon Above and pick two domains.
Bluebrush 03-24-07, 02:15 PM	The ECS supports the idea you can be a cleric of a Philosophy, though your faith will need to be super-strong. The Spell domain doesn't get a mention in the ECS since it's from a non-core book. I'd have to check, but given the Shadow is the deity of evil magic, he probably has the spell domain. In the end, if you're content to let him do whatever he wants the books can support it.
The White Sorcerer 03-24-07, 02:15 PM	I believe the ECS has provisions for this. He can gain cleric abilities for his faith in the Dragon Above and pick two domains. Not quite. He would draw power from the spiritual remains of the Dragon Above, but wouldn't actually worship Siberys. Tell the player to stop whining and come up with a coherent faith for his cleric.
ArcTan 03-24-07, 02:23 PM	I have a player who likes to play clerics but never wants to play a cleric who actually worships a god. He relies heavily on one or two lines of text that state that a cleric doesn't need to worship a god and can instead just pick two domains. He ends up thinking of a lot of what I call "domain soup" concoctions that might work well together from a powergaming perspective (cherry picking the best domains -- the last cleric had Travel for the free Ring of Free Action effect and Air for super Air Elementals that sucked all enemies off the battlefield) but don't seem to make any sense from a roleplaying one. Anyway, his latest idea in an upcoming Eberron campaign is to play a "cleric" with no god but access to the Spell and Shadow domains. AFAIKT, in Eberron the Spell domain doesn't really exist and the only way to access the Shadow domain is to be a cleric of the Shadow, or at least the Dark Six. The player doesn't like this and thinks he should be allowed to just pick any two domains he wants like the book says he can. What should I do? Part of me is pretty sure he's got something up his sleeve involving these two domains, because he is very insistent that he HAS to have access to BOTH of them, and only those domains will do, despite the fact that he doesn't actually have a god or philosophy for the cleric to follow. From a roleplaying perspective, does this even make sense in Eberron? CAN an Eberron cleric just pick a domain exclusive to the Dark Six and another domain that doesn't even exist and slap them together without claiming allegiance to any god or church? Thanks, - Ron ^*^ In a serious campaign I would never allow a Cleric to simply be a Cleric without a guiding doctrine. That's what Clerics draw their powers from. He can be a Cleric of no particular deity and instead venerate the Dragon Above, as maollelujah said, but he needs to *explain* why he has the Spell and Shadow domains -- he needs to come up with an in-character justification for those based on his characters' *beliefs*, not just what he wants the character to do. Although since the Shadow is the god of dark magic, Spell and Shadow work very well for a Cleric of the Shadow. (Its greater flexibility next to the Magic domain makes sense for the Shadow's "lawless magic" flavor.) By the way, the reason he wants these two domains is almost certainly the wide range of spells the combination of anyspell and shadow conjuration and shadow evocation will give him. You might be okay with this, but just be wary. You are pretty much giving him the ability to eventually prepare and cast any arcane spell up to 5th level that he wants as a regular spell, and any conjuration spell up to 8th level that he wants as a shadow spell. It's not necessarily broken but he might try some ridiculous stuff with it -- feel free to put your foot down if giving him this much spell selection is something you don't want to do.
yrogerg 03-24-07, 02:57 PM	I have a player who likes to play clerics but never wants to play a cleric who actually worships a god. He relies heavily on one or two lines of text that state that a cleric doesn't need to worship a god and can instead just pick two domains. He ends up thinking of a lot of what I call "domain soup" concoctions that might work well together from a powergaming perspective (cherry picking the best domains -- the last cleric had Travel for the free Ring of Free Action effect and Air for super Air Elementals that sucked all enemies off the battlefield) but don't seem to make any sense from a roleplaying one. Anyway, his latest idea in an upcoming Eberron campaign is to play a "cleric" with no god but access to the Spell and Shadow domains. AFAIKT, in Eberron the Spell domain doesn't really exist and the only way to access the Shadow domain is to be a cleric of the Shadow, or at least the Dark Six. The player doesn't like this and thinks he should be allowed to just pick any two domains he wants like the book says he can. What should I do? Part of me is pretty sure he's got something up his sleeve involving these two domains, because he is very insistent that he HAS to have access to BOTH of them, and only those domains will do, despite the fact that he doesn't actually have a god or philosophy for the cleric to follow. From a roleplaying perspective, does this even make sense in Eberron? CAN an Eberron cleric just pick a domain exclusive to the Dark Six and another domain that doesn't even exist and slap them together without claiming allegiance to any god or church? Thanks, - Ron ^*^ You're the DM. Ask him why he wants a character with those two domans. As the Spell doman isn't listed in any of the setting books, it only exists if you allow it, as with *any* spells from outside books. That said, it wouldn't be unreasonable to insist that his character devote himself to a diety, or at very least, a very well-developed ideal, complete with a code of conduct to adhere to. Clerics without gods still devote themselves to ideals. However, the Shadow, or some amalgamated faith actually would be a reasonable diety to grant the Spell Doman, IMO. Largely, though, this is well within the "only if a DM allows you" range of character choices. If you don't want him to, or think the reason he wants them sounds fishy, then don't let him. It's that simple. Beyond that, just remember that whatever tricks he wants to try, you can use too.
Werebat 03-24-07, 03:20 PM	By the way, the reason he wants these two domains is almost certainly the wide range of spells the combination of anyspell and shadow conjuration and shadow evocation will give him. You might be okay with this, but just be wary. You are pretty much giving him the ability to eventually prepare and cast any arcane spell up to 5th level that he wants as a regular spell, and any conjuration spell up to 8th level that he wants as a shadow spell. It's not necessarily broken but he might try some ridiculous stuff with it -- feel free to put your foot down if giving him this much spell selection is something you don't want to do. He has basically come out and said that this is why he wants the two domains, but I'm wondering if there might not be something else, or some concrete example of the "ridiculous stuff" you mention above. I'm thinking something in conjunction with Divine Metamagicked Persistent Spell, or some psionic ability I don't know much about. Persistent Improved Invisibility, for example. This player tends to get very teed off when a DM puts the kaibash on one of his hidden schemes once it's revealed, so I'm wary of letting him take the domains at all. Besides, I just don't like the idea of "domain soup" in the first place. Clerics are versatile enough as it is. - Ron ^*^
AvonRekaes 03-24-07, 04:26 PM	I've had a similar situation with a whiny player before. He rolled a 1 on an HP roll and threw a fit when I wouldn't let him reroll. Eventually he just gave me so much crap about it that I kicked him out of the game. You're the DM. It's your job to make sure the party is more or less balanced so everyone will have fun (including you). If one person is selfishly trying to make an uber character so he can pull off "ridiculous stuff", then he's likely going to make the other players feel like they aren't needed and they won't have fun like that. And you won't have fun trying to get around this broken character. It's your job to make sure that doesn't happen. If he doesn't let up, threaten to kick him out of the game. (You can put it nicely like "Listen, I think we just have play styles that are too different. I find it too difficult to run a game with you in it, so I think it would be best for both of us if you didn't play in my game anymore). With all that said, he is technically correct. In Eberron, especially, a cleric can worship a philosophy and gain divine power from doing so if he believes in it hard enough. Having the Shadow and Spell domain is pretty much right up the Shadow's alley, but it's not exclusive to him. There's no such thing as "exclusive" domains. A philosopher-cleric can have any two domains he wishes. Just have him give you a write up of his philosophy, such as "The Plane of Shadow is the source of greatest magic" and expand on it for a couple of paragraphs. Basically, you can't have a cleric without a religion. You can have one without a god, but there needs to be a strong belief in something in order to get power. Don't be shy on enforcing this. If your little powergamer of a player isn't willing to at least roleplay his powergaming, maybe it's time he finds a new group.
yrogerg 03-25-07, 10:11 AM	I'm thinking something in conjunction with Divine Metamagicked Persistent Spell, or some psionic ability I don't know much about. Persistent Improved Invisibility, for example. IMO, he best way to deal with Persistent Spell cheese is simply to ban Persistent Spell. It's +6 spell levels, so it's either never useful (no Persistent 1st-level spell is remotely worth a 7th level spells lot), or it's *extremely* useful (per Divine Persistent cheese). There's no middle ground, meaning it fails the FSBUBNN test.
Werebat 03-25-07, 10:54 AM	IMO, he best way to deal with Persistent Spell cheese is simply to ban Persistent Spell. It's +6 spell levels, so it's either never useful (no Persistent 1st-level spell is remotely worth a 7th level spells lot), or it's *extremely* useful (per Divine Persistent cheese). There's no middle ground, meaning it fails the FSBUBNN test. I'm pretty much agreed on that. To date no one has tried it so I haven't needed to vocalize the ban. Around here we have a nice setup, two DMs and we each play in each other's campaigns. We almost always end up backing each other up on stuff like this which helps immeasurably. Almost without exception, what I don't want in my campaign, he don't want in his either. - Ron ^*^
Logos7 03-25-07, 10:58 AM	dun know what the fsasbubun test is, but i don't think i'm the only one who limits divine metamagic. I think the whole metamagic concept needs the requirement of being actually able to use it, (Ie able to cast or emulate a spell of the level of the buy off ) but as for your clerical dude, yeah he needs faith in something and that also generally means a code of conduct, even if it's only use my arcane might as often as possible. You the dm never have to do anything about it, because the code of conduct becomes internalized even if the players dont want it. Let him be a Cleric of Shadow or no dice is what i'd say. Still i have a druid in my game trying to convince me that a grain in fertility goddess is the perfect patron god for stormlord's despite the CE Storm god over their on the evil panthion Logos
Hellcow 03-25-07, 12:58 PM	I posted something vaguely relevant on another thread. I'll just repost and then comment further. ---------------------------------- It would be a clever (or smart-arse) player indeed who could propose a form of transcendent importance to a teakettle. I agree. The concept that in Eberron you can "worship anything" is really more of a game mechanic than anything else. It's saying that you can create small sects with unusual beliefs and have them receive divine power. However, the DM must approve any alternate religion, and should feel free to dismiss anything that seems frivilous. It's POSSIBLE that someone could come up with a religion where he believes HE is god and gain spells from it... if the DM believes that his relion is logical, internally consistent, and has a belief structure that suits the needs of the game. Domains must be justified; if I believe in "Me-ism", why does that come with the War and Death domains? A cleric can technically gain spells from any set of beliefs... but he can also LOSE his spells if he fails to follow his doctrine. Likewise, he can commune or atone - who does he believe is answering his spell or accepting his atonement? It doesn't have to be a god as such - but if he believes in Me-ism, under what circumstances could he lose his abilities, and how does he see commune working? Likewise, the whole point is that it takes a person of truly exceptional faith to start a new faith. There's no rules for this, because PCs are truly exceptional people. But there's a reason that you don't see scads of kettle-worship style faiths mentioned in the books - because it is easier to derive clerical powers from worship of one of the major religions than to start your own. So where do spells come from? How is it that a cleric who violates his faith loses spellcasting ability? Who responds to commune or atonement? The key is that in Eberron, there's no way to know with 100% certainty. But SOMETHING answers. Some force strips the cleric of power, and returns the power on atonement. A few possibilities: Gods do exist. The amazing number of cultures that worship variations of the Sovereign Host, using similar names and symbols for their gods, along with that fact that it's easier to gain divine power by worshipping a Sovereign than by worshipping a shoe, suggests that there is some truth to the beliefs of the Sovereigns. These gods provide power to other faiths. As someone suggested on another thread, the Lord of Blades doesn't have divine rank, but some people worship him and gain spells. But what if those spells actually come from the Traveler? The Traveler is a god of both artifice (giving a connection to the warforged) and chaos. Perhaps it enjoys empowering this little faith and letting the warforged BELIEVE their lord is a god, because of the chaos it will cause in the future. All magic, both divine and arcane, is drawn from Siberys. Regardless of belief, Siberys is the ultimate source of power... and there's no reason SIBERYS can't be a sentient force. Why it chooses to play the role of a hundred different divinities, why it enforces the codes of each, that's a mystery - but it does. Gods are an invention of the mortal psyche, and exist as concepts in the collective unconscious. They have no physical existence, but are nonetheless forces with sentience, capable of drawing on the power of Siberys to empower their followers. By this theory, mortals create their gods, which is why it's easier to gain power from a major faith than to create your own. And by this theory, the Lord of Blades IS a god - but he's also a mortal, and the god and mortal are two entirely separate entities. The worship of the Lord of Blades has created a divine avatar of the LoB on this metaphysical level, but the mortal LoB has no contact with it or control over it; it is the idealized form of the Lord of Blades as seen by his followers. These are just a few possible ideas. But if you WANT there to be gods in Eberron, make it so. The point of Eberron is that it's uncertain, that you can't MEET a god. But the cosmology can certainly support the idea that there are gods out there. --------------------------- Anyhow, that first paragraph is the key here. I will not simply let a player say "I want the War domain (with spiked chain) and the Freedom domain, because I like them." He has to be able to define his faith, to explain how it has meaning to his character, to explain its doctrines and how he can fail to live up to them, and certainly to explain his choice of domains and how they reflect his beliefs. He may draw power from the Dragon Above, but his faith is his conduit to that power - and if he doesn't have a strong, coherent faith, he's not going to be able to perform miracles. Remember that in Eberron, most PRIESTS aren't capable of casting divine magic; the average village priest is an expert, not a cleric. It takes an exceptional person to touch the divine, with exceptional faith - not simply someone who likes getting free action once per day. Just my opinion, of course. But the intention of the "Make your own religion" rule was to do just that - to let players and DMs make their own religions, not simply to choose the domains that are most efficient from a mechanical standpoint. As a DM, if a player can't justify his choices, he's out of luck. This may seem to come back to the roleplaying vs powergaming debate... that I'm trying to force a roleplaying aspect on to a person who may not want it. However, there are two factors here. First, I do consider creating a new religion to be an important roleplaying consideration. If you don't have a strong, good idea for your faith, you shouldn't be making up something new; use what's already there. Second, FROM a purely mechanical standpoint, it's all about atonement. It is possible for a cleric who deviates from the path of his faith to lose his powers. Regardless of whether the player intends to go into deep roleplaying, if a new faith is created, the DM needs to have a clear set of circumstances under which it can be shown that the cleric has turned against his faith - and as this is a serious balance issue for a cleric, it's something that must meet with DM approval. If I can say "I worship me, and I get the war (spiked chain) domain because I'm a tough guy who likes spiked chains, and I'll never take my powers away, because I'm ME!" - that's not going to fly in any game I run. On the other hand, something closer to "I worship the spirit within me, that has been embodied by my family line for generations, back to when were slaves of the Nulakesh Empire of Sarlona. We fought for freedom, broke free of Nulakesh, and when we came to Khorvaire we have fought for the rights of the oppressed of every race and culture. In each generation, a champion is chosen to embody our values, and he can draw on the power of our dedication to the principles of freedom. As that champion, I have access to the War (spiked chain) domain, representing our turning the chains that bound us into weapons to fight our oppressors, and the Freedom domain, representing my indomitable belief in freedom. In my life, I must pursue the cause of freedom and help those unjustly oppressed. Should I stand by while others are enslaved or denied their rightful liberties, I risk the ancestral spirit turning away from me and stripping me of my powers." ... that I might go for. There's history; story hooks for the DM to draw on; and a clear code of conduct as limiting as that of the Silver Flame. With all that said, clerics aren't paladins, and in the case of the faith described above, the key word is "risk". A cleric CAN lose his powers for turning away from his faith; but it's not as easy or clearly defined as it is for the paladin, and it's up to the DM to decide when the cleric has truly gone far enough to "incur the wrath" of the source of his power.
yrogerg 03-25-07, 01:01 PM	dun know what the fsasbubun test is, but i don't think i'm the only one who limits divine metamagic. Feats Should Be Useful But Not Necessary. Persistent Spell is either useless because of the high Spell Level adjustment (without Divine Metamagic) or powerful enough to be obligatory when the Spell adjustment can be circumvented (i.e, with Divine Metamagic). Therefore, it's out. That said, I'm less convinced that Divine Metamagic itself, when metamagic feats like Persistent Spell are banned, is nearly as broken.
Werebat 03-25-07, 02:36 PM	I posted something vaguely relevant on another thread. I'll just repost and then comment further. <Snip> Keith, Thanks a lot! What you say here makes a lot of sense, and I think I'll print it for the player to have a look at when the time comes. Actually, after realizing the connection between Shadow/Spell and The Shadow / Aureon, I think there might be some potential for a religion here (something about "uniting the two halves" of magic, which would no doubt cause him to catch some heat from both Aureon and The Shadow's more traditional followers). I really know that the player is just powergaming (he wants to mix all of this with psionics somehow to have access to all spells and powers) and even if he did write up a faith it would be only a token gesture. He's never even *played* Eberron before and I think for a first foray it might be best to limit things to the core deities, etc. We'll see. - Ron ^*^
Bluebrush 03-25-07, 02:50 PM	Something I discovered today, a religion uniting Aureon and The Shadow has been suggested in the conversion notes for The Savage Tide adventure path. http://paizo.com/dungeonissues/SavageTide/SavageTide_conversion.pdf The relevant passage: Religion in Sasserine Old Sarlona was home to many religions that are virtually unknown in the present day. The priestess Sasserine brought her Lamechan traditions across the sea, and today her descendants are some of the only people on Eberron who still share her faith. In place of Wee Jas, the people of Sasserine revere the Sovereign of Light and Darkness. The statues of the Sovereign are two-faced; one side shows a man carved from white marble, while the other depicts a woman carved from black marble. The Sovereign is said to be the source of all magic, and privy to all secret knowledge; a typical priest of the Sovereign Host would see the Sovereign of Light and Darkness as being a blending of Aureon and the Shadow. A cleric who wishes to worship the Sovereign of Light and Darkness can choose from the domains and of either deity.
Werebat 03-25-07, 05:23 PM	Something I discovered today, a religion uniting Aureon and The Shadow has been suggested in the conversion notes for The Savage Tide adventure path. http://paizo.com/dungeonissues/SavageTide/SavageTide_conversion.pdf The relevant passage: Wow! Now what are the chances? Thanks, this will make things sit better, maybe. I'll have to look up about Savage Tide to learn exactly what culture we're talking about here -- sahuagan? - Ron ^*^
yrogerg 03-25-07, 05:57 PM	Wow! Now what are the chances? Thanks, this will make things sit better, maybe. I'll have to look up about Savage Tide to learn exactly what culture we're talking about here -- sahuagan? - Ron ^*^ Sarlona's human. Though, it sounds like a reasonable thing to crop up near-anywhere, being as it's very nearly the magical equivalent of the Cult of the Three in Korth. I would suggest that you don't need to be *that* by-the-book in allowing variant sects of the Host.
Hellcow 03-25-07, 06:36 PM	Something I discovered today, a religion uniting Aureon and The Shadow has been suggested in the conversion notes for The Savage Tide adventure path. ... by me, no less. If I'd been playing closer attention to the full content of the thread, I'd have mentioned it.
korcheck 03-25-07, 06:45 PM	happens to the best of us hellcow, especially when you post so often lol.
Falen 04-01-07, 07:47 PM	I'll throw my two cents in, even though it looks like things have already been decided on...plus most of the posters have pretty much written what I would have suggested. Here goes... One of my favorite rules in the ECS is that sentence about being able to channel divine power from the Dragon Above and selecting two domains that reflect the cleric's spirituality. I like options and I like coming up with new things. So if I wanted a cleric with (just picking the first two to pop into my head) the Warforged and Elf domains, I could, but I would have to come up with a very interesting story for it. So much could be done with those already. My brain is working right now on it. The thing is is that it's up to me to come up with how this is possible (with the help of the DM of course). Maybe these two domains don't go together. Maybe the DM nixes it and comes up with some house rules about which can go together. Or even what domains will be allowed in the game. So if a player in my campaign came up with the Warforged/Elf idea, I would ask that player to come up with something really cool and believable for me to work with (as DM I already have too much stuff going on) with the stipulation that if it is too hard for me to work into the campaign, I won't allow it. I try to give my player's as many options as possible and with whatever they choose (and what they want their characters to become), I will work those into the campaign to try and get each player what they want. But if this new religion/philosophy centered around a melding of Elf and Warforged ideals is going to be too hard, then it's back to the drawing board. I've learned that just saying 'no' doesn't cut it. Come to a compromise that will make it fun for everyone. Also if someone wants to powergame within your rules, you can powergame also. I mentioned on other threads on other sites that in one of my worlds the elves are a NPC race that are the only ones that can gestalt. It makes them out to be very powerful foes (there are other rules that go along with them, too). You, as the DM, have the right to do whatever you want, but you also have the responsibility to make it fun for everyone. Make the player come up with an exciting philosophy (or a different sect of an established religion, there are already plenty in Eberron, so it's not unheard of). He does the work freeing you up for other things. He now has a vested interest in it (not just powergaming although he will probably still do it). When you two come to a compromise (it might be smart to ask the other players if they are okay with this also) you will hopefully begin to have a fun campaign. Let us know what happens (and maybe I will post my Elf/Warforged philosophy now that it is brewing in my head).
JulesCARV 04-01-07, 08:41 PM	The Faiths of Eberron cleric quick reference (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060911a&page=2) gives Aureon the spell domain, and the Shadow the shadow domain. I came up with an alternative cleric "religion" called "Planar Mediumship." (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=816375) (it's not Eberron specific: it's generic, on the House Rules board). It doesn't require any specific religious beliefs: in fact, you don't have to have strong belief in anything in particular, tea-kettle, shoe, or otherwise, (I'm not really a huge fan of the fantasy paradigm of "belief alters reality in a direct causal relationship" anyway, although admittedly it can be cool if done right.) although of course a planar medium can be a strong believer in stuff if he wants, like a rogue, wizard, or whatever. However, there are only ten available domains: air, chaos, death, earth, evil, fire, good, healing, law, and water. There's also a requirement of extensive knowledge (the planes). A planar medium is a bit weaker than a well-made cleric of a god, although still viable. In short, it allows clerics for players who don't find any of the religions appealing without opening up powergaming accusations much. Regarding persistent spell, I think that artificers can break it with Metamagic Item more easily than clerics can break it with Divine Metamagic. Just sayin'.
yrogerg 04-01-07, 10:02 PM	Regarding persistent spell, I think that artificers can break it with Metamagic Item more easily than clerics can break it with Divine Metamagic. Just sayin'. Right. Like I said, I largely consider Persistent Spell's breakability to be a function of Persistent Spell's inherent brokenness, not that of Divine Metamagic or Metamagic Item.
SSj3goblin 04-06-07, 01:54 PM	Tell the player to stop whining and come up with a coherent faith for his cleric. Tell the player to stop whining and come up with a coherent faith for his cleric. Tell the player to stop whining and come up with a coherent faith for his cleric. Tell the player to stop whining and come up with a coherent faith for his cleric. This should do.
Edymnion 04-07-07, 05:02 PM	The concept that in Eberron you can "worship anything" is really more of a game mechanic than anything else. It's saying that you can create small sects with unusual beliefs and have them receive divine power. However, the DM must approve any alternate religion, and should feel free to dismiss anything that seems frivilous.The Almighty Shoe wishes to dissagree with you, Keith. :D
goblin_pride 04-07-07, 07:25 PM	The Almighty Shoe wishes to dissagree with you, Keith. :D Dude, for the last time, you're not getting spells from your shoe. Well, maybe Stinking Cloud, but I think that's more of a persistant effect.....
Neutronium_Dragon 04-10-07, 08:49 AM	While a "reuniting Aureon and the Shadow" based sect is certainly viable, I could also see one which wants them to stay separate, going by the theory that true power is found by walking the path which is formed between the two in their separation. This would certainly fit the Spell and Shadow domains as a choice.
Edymnion 04-12-07, 08:05 PM	Dude, for the last time, you're not getting spells from your shoe. Well, maybe Stinking Cloud, but I think that's more of a persistant effect.....The Almighty Shoe grants the Travel and Protection Domains, has the Steeltoed Boot (guantlet remapped to the feet) as it's favored weapon, and grants domain spells such as Expedious Retreat. The Almighty Shoe exists, I tell you! Its just you unbelievers that dismiss it because its not some sexy little plant girl goddess! ;)
ArcTan 04-12-07, 09:58 PM	There's also just the fact that anyspell is just plain ridiculously useful compared to the merely okay powers you get as a user of the Magic domain, which *is* core and which Aureon Clerics get by default. So if you were a player in my campaign, I would make you work to justify having the Spell domain instead -- like, your faith represents the cumulative power of all written spells everywhere rather than just magic in general, and you're a member of a tradition that, instead of just tapping into magic in general, somehow studies so deeply into the structure of spells themselves that the idea of the spell is written on your heart. You know. Something cool. And, as Keith pointed out, something with a pretty specific code of conduct that constrains your character so playing this character isn't just an anyspell party. Maybe someone who worships stored knowledge so much that they will not suffer the written word to be destroyed, etc. You know, a good flavor concept for this would be someone who reveres the memory of the founder of the Library of Korranberg, only they believe that by challenging Aureon and seeking to take his place, the founder of the Library was cast away from the Sovereign Host and instead melded with the Shadow. They could be in opposition to the standard Clerics of Aureon with Knowledge and Magic as their domains, thanks to their belief that the acquisition of *all* magical knowledge is the key to true power, etc. This would explain the anyspell power and also give them some pretty hefty challenges for surviving in the world (their beliefs are a blasphemy against Clerics of the Host, against the beliefs of most doctrinaire arcane spellcasters, *and* against orthodox worshippers of the Shadow), as well as a built-in character hook (obsession with reading and learning information).
okaynowa 04-20-07, 10:29 AM	The Almighty Shoe grants the Travel and Protection Domains, has the Steeltoed Boot (guantlet remapped to the feet) as it's favored weapon, and grants domain spells such as Expedious Retreat.But which dragon is traditionally associated with The Shoe in liturgical art? Or is The Shoe associated with the behir, whose feet are many? On topic, there's a difference between "what the book says he can" and "playing well with others." Is the cleric even an appropriate class for what this player wants? Would a modified duskblade or gish with a thematic spell list (agreed upon by the player and the DM) be better? It sounds more like he wants an armored spellcaster than a religious champion. In Eberron, priests are seldom full-fledged clerics. But why create a cleric who isn't even a priest?
Nuclear_Buddha 04-20-07, 03:42 PM	In Eberron, priests are seldom full-fledged clerics. But why create a cleric who isn't even a priest? So there's no role-playing baggage that goes with their power, obviously.
RogueElement 04-20-07, 05:26 PM	The Almighty Shoe grants the Travel and Protection Domains, has the Steeltoed Boot (guantlet remapped to the feet) as it's favored weapon, and grants domain spells such as Expedious Retreat. The Almighty Shoe exists, I tell you! Its just you unbelievers that dismiss it because its not some sexy little plant girl goddess! ;) Blasphemy! You WILL worship the almighty Banjo! Bow before our Lord of Sockpuppets!
Omnicronwarlord 04-22-07, 09:40 PM	I'll throw my two cents in, even though it looks like things have already been decided on...plus most of the posters have pretty much written what I would have suggested. Here goes... One of my favorite rules in the ECS is that sentence about being able to channel divine power from the Dragon Above and selecting two domains that reflect the cleric's spirituality. I like options and I like coming up with new things. So if I wanted a cleric with (just picking the first two to pop into my head) the Warforged and Elf domains, I could, but I would have to come up with a very interesting story for it. So much could be done with those already. My brain is working right now on it. The thing is is that it's up to me to come up with how this is possible (with the help of the DM of course). Maybe these two domains don't go together. Maybe the DM nixes it and comes up with some house rules about which can go together. Or even what domains will be allowed in the game. So if a player in my campaign came up with the Warforged/Elf idea, I would ask that player to come up with something really cool and believable for me to work with (as DM I already have too much stuff going on) with the stipulation that if it is too hard for me to work into the campaign, I won't allow it. I try to give my player's as many options as possible and with whatever they choose (and what they want their characters to become), I will work those into the campaign to try and get each player what they want. But if this new religion/philosophy centered around a melding of Elf and Warforged ideals is going to be too hard, then it's back to the drawing board. I've learned that just saying 'no' doesn't cut it. Come to a compromise that will make it fun for everyone. Also if someone wants to powergame within your rules, you can powergame also. I mentioned on other threads on other sites that in one of my worlds the elves are a NPC race that are the only ones that can gestalt. It makes them out to be very powerful foes (there are other rules that go along with them, too). You, as the DM, have the right to do whatever you want, but you also have the responsibility to make it fun for everyone. Make the player come up with an exciting philosophy (or a different sect of an established religion, there are already plenty in Eberron, so it's not unheard of). He does the work freeing you up for other things. He now has a vested interest in it (not just powergaming although he will probably still do it). When you two come to a compromise (it might be smart to ask the other players if they are okay with this also) you will hopefully begin to have a fun campaign. Let us know what happens (and maybe I will post my Elf/Warforged philosophy now that it is brewing in my head). lol, I have never seen that mentioned before, and I also only let elves gestalt (actually the elves get it from The Mother Tree, by eating its fruit, and they let great heros who have helped them or non-elf citizens who are as loyal as elves eat it as well.)
okaynowa 04-23-07, 09:07 AM	So if I wanted a cleric with (just picking the first two to pop into my head) the Warforged and Elf domains, I could, but I would have to come up with a very interesting story for it. That could be a thread in itself. Just off the top of my head, I'm envisioning an artifice-minded elf who believes there must be some meaningful connection between his own people and these wonderful new beings who also don't have to sleep. Finally, someone else who can stay up all night, and won't die of old age after a mere 60 years! Philosophically, perhaps this cleric is actually focused on the Draconic Prophecy, and has chosen his domains to aid the two non-draconic races with the best chance of reading it. That would really be a character for a Mournland/Lord of Blades campaign. The mind boggles.
WolfHati 04-24-07, 02:25 AM	So if I wanted a cleric with (just picking the first two to pop into my head) the Warforged and Elf domains, I could, but I would have to come up with a very interesting story for it. Strangely enough, one of the campaigns I'm in has a warforged artificer who got reincarnated as an elf... so maybe if they decided to suddenly become a cleric instead and contemplate the meaning of life...
ArcTan 04-24-07, 06:38 AM	So there's no role-playing baggage that goes with their power, obviously. While there are different schools of thought about this, stripping *all* flavor from the class system and making it just a set of mechanical abilities bugs me, which is why I'm annoyed at the CharOp boards' love of builds that mix-and-match five or six classes from three or four books for a very specific mechanical result. Also, the OP wasn't just asking about the flavor of the Spell and Shadow domains but also worried about the power. If he doesn't want to deal with the mechanical power of a character who can effectively pull any spell he wants out of his ass once he gets high-level enough, he should just ban the combo, whether or not it has good flavor behind it.
timothyx 04-28-07, 12:30 AM	I'd say he's got some neat tricks up his sleave, else why those two domains, it isn't necessary to ban them for his character (however even I agree persistant spell should be banned from any game, and I'd tell him that, maybe his face will drop some color), as a DM, you need to ensure that you're providing a challenge to him, drop him in an anti magic zone, like, oh, say the Mournland, or have a wizard really take him down a peg at some point, or create a situation wherein, magic does him absolutely no good. oh, and I'd make him write out a 2 page character outline about what his character's beliefs are, code of conduct, and the "origins" of his characters upbringing... oh, and tell him to choose a "concept which he gets his divine faith from"....
TheAnthroDM 04-28-07, 04:03 AM	In the first Eberron Campaign I DM'd the BBEG was a Shifter Cleric of himself. How did this work? He started a cult worshiping "the Corrupter" or "The Dark Seventh" and gained his powers from an unknown source, but he was actually convinced he was "The Dark Seventh". Also in my second Eberron Campaign(as a player) I played a Cleric who was part of a organization dedicated to returning the Dark Six to the Host. My particular Cleric was Lawful Neutral with the Law and Passion domains. She believed that it was possible to bring the Fury the the grace that was stolen from her through the perversion of her conception. Anyway my point is. If you're cleric has a legitimate reason to take two domains because they are part of his/her faith and the DM approve the faith then their's no problem. If you don't have a legitiment faith, then you shouldn't be playing a Cleric now should you?