Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tallric_kruush 06-03-07, 09:52 PM	It occured to me last night, as I dozed off, that an Orien heir should be perfectly capable of piloting an airship. If an Orien heir can propel an air elemental-powered lightning rail train down a line of conductor stones, he should be able to will an air or fire elemental into propelling an airship. He should be every bit as capable as a Lyrandar heir. There seems to be a perception (though maybe it's my imagination...:thinks:) that you need to have a Lyrandar heir in your party if you want to make best use of an airship. Has anyone ever had an Orien heir as their pilot?
Ukkic 06-03-07, 10:44 PM	To make use of the Wheel of Wind and Water you have to have the lesser mark of Storm (wind's favor). To my knowlege that is the easiest way to control an airship. But I also think I remember reading that the reason airships and lightning rails are keyed for Lyrander and Orien heirs respectively was for the purpose of maintaining a monopoly on the controil of such vessels, I think it was an agreement between the houses or something ( I'm not sure where I read this, I will try to find it). It seems like this would mean that an airship could be keyed for someone else to control, possibly. Though of course there are no rules allowing this. ~Ukkic
tallric_kruush 06-04-07, 01:26 PM	But I also think I remember reading that the reason airships and lightning rails are keyed for Lyrander and Orien heirs respectively was for the purpose of maintaining a monopoly on the controil of such vessels, I think it was an agreement between the houses or something ( I'm not sure where I read this, I will try to find it). This would be the only explanation that makes sense, and the one I'd have given if the issue had ever arisen in my game. If an Orien can push an air elemental bound to a lightning rail car, there wouldn't be anything keeping him from doing the same with an airship elemental (piloting skills aside). There are even examples of unmarked airship pilots, they just aren't working for Lyrandar. The only reason I brought this up was that a player of ours pretty much said: "Without a Lyrandar heir in our group, we can't really make use of our own airship." The "to the utmost" was implied when he said it. We don't have an Orien heir, either, but it caused me to start thinking all the same. I think I'd let an Orien heir pilot an airship in my game, even if it isn't ever going to be the family business. If they'd thought of it first, they'd no doubt have done just as Lyrandar's done.
Syltorian 06-04-07, 05:25 PM	If they'd thought of it first, they'd no doubt have done just as Lyrandar's done. Personally, I'd not let them pilot an airship, because the airship is attuned to the Mark of Storm. However, I accept that, on principle, it would be possible to create airships attuned to the Mark of Passage (primarily, Overland Flight). These would not function for Lyrandar heirs, and do not, as yet, exist in anything more than theory. The reason why Orien has not done it yet is that airships are a recent phenomenon, barely ten years old if I recall correctly. It needed the combined skills of Cannith, Zilargo gnomes and Lyrandar to get them afloat, and has taken Orien more or less by surprise. Now Cannith is splintered, they may not have the resources to put that much effort into it. While Orien could promise support to one group of Cannith, whether that group wants the active enmity of Lyrandar is another matter. The Cannith factions also need to put their resources into keeping up with their rivals. They won't be interested in such massive expenditures yet. Orien - who, in my campaign are secretly toying with the idea to get their own airships up, causing some problems with Lyrandar (who has only had rumours, but no confirmations) - are also in financial trouble as their lightning rail network was seriously damaged in the Last War. Essentially, most money of Orien will be put into restoring the broken lines (Fairhaven-Flamekeep, for example), sending expeditions to Metrol Station, and trying to get Karrnath and Thrane to finally rebuilt the White Arch Bridge. They simply do not have the money to commit themselves fully to the airship business. And then there is the matter of the Zil gnomes, who hold the secret of elemental binding (if that's what Orien wants... if they were to develop an overland-flight ship that gets by on the Mark without an elemental, that'd be a great breakthrough that will rather upset some important factions). Orien would have to navigate the jungle of Zil politics to get airships in addition to their lightning coaches, which probably cost them enough favours already. So essentially, I'd say it makes for "interesting" relationships in the Twelve if Orien is toying with this idea, but not quite getting there yet... so far, Lyrandar holds the monopoly, and it is going to be ruthless about keeping it.
fhilbrandt 06-05-07, 04:26 PM	There is no reason why a non-Lyandar heir can't pilot an airship. The Wheel of Wind and Water only allows the pilot to forego (sp?) the opposed CHA check with the elemental. Several of the books have shown airships piloted by Zil gnomes or Cannith artificers, or even an elf that happened to have a dragonmark. As a DM, I'd place a device on the ship that aided with the CHA check (a device with a permanent Eagle's Splendor would work) and let anyone with at least one rank of Use Magical Device be the pilot.
Syltorian 06-05-07, 04:42 PM	There is no reason why a non-Lyandar heir can't pilot an airship. The Wheel of Wind and Water only allows the pilot to forego (sp?) the opposed CHA check with the elemental. Several of the books have shown airships piloted by Zil gnomes or Cannith artificers, or even an elf that happened to have a dragonmark. Yeah, I guess I should have said above: "I would not let [a non-Lyrandar heir] pilot a ship without making charisma checks." The problem is that if you have to make checks, you can, theoretically, fail them. Not very good for business, if your rivals are so much safer (provided nobody throws the pilot overboard). Btw, books are not canon. Remember, one book had a half-elf with a Mark of Passage...
tallric_kruush 06-05-07, 04:45 PM	There is no reason why a non-Lyandar heir can't pilot an airship. The Wheel of Wind and Water only allows the pilot to forego (sp?) the opposed CHA check with the elemental. Several of the books have shown airships piloted by Zil gnomes or Cannith artificers, or even an elf that happened to have a dragonmark. As a DM, I'd place a device on the ship that aided with the CHA check (a device with a permanent Eagle's Splendor would work) and let anyone with at least one rank of Use Magical Device be the pilot. True. There are plenty of examples of non-Lyrandar airship pilots. I was just curious as to whether anyone else found it odd that the House of Storm is depicted as being the most natural choice, or "those with the easiest time" piloting these airships, when the House of Passage also controls air elemental-based vehicles. They should, in theory, be just as competent. I really think it was a flavor thing. The House of Storms just sounds like it should be flying airships. Also, you couldn't vary well give Orien both the Lightning Rail and Airships. That would've left Lyrandar with just elemental galleons and agricultural aid as their services-offered. Would be kind of lame, in a way. Oh well, it's a pointless guess. The houses and marks are great "as is".
Cifer 06-05-07, 06:43 PM	If there is a way in which Orien can harness elementals for airships, there would be the interesting question of "why isn't it done?". I'd consider Orien a more likely choice to be contacted first when Zil and Cannith have hatched the plans of employing a DMark for elemental aircrafts - the lightning rail has already shown it works. So my perception would be that the control the Mark of Storm grants over elementals is in some ways greater than that of the Mark of Passage. The Lightning Reins give only very limited control: Slow down, accelerate, stop - and move only over the conductor stones. Compare that to the multitude of possible movements of an airship. On the other hand side, the speed of the lightning rail is much greater than that of airships and AFAIK also the various ships. So if Orien indeed gets airships, I'd foresee them to be faster than Lyrandar ones, but nearly un-maneuverable. You point them precisely in the direction where you wish to end up (possibly aided by Medani farseers) and then just let go. They'd be more like rockets than airplanes.
tallric_kruush 06-05-07, 07:05 PM	I'd consider Orien a more likely choice to be contacted first when Zil and Cannith have hatched the plans of employing a DMark for elemental aircrafts - the lightning rail has already shown it works. I agree, but where would that leave Lyrandar? I assume that's why the decision was made during the creation phase of Eberron as a game. So my perception would be that the control the Mark of Storm grants over elementals is in some ways greater than that of the Mark of Passage. That is a good way to explain the situation in game. Logic tells me otherwise, however. I think it was simply a matter of flavor and balancing the power of the houses. That's just my opinion, though. An opinion with no real importance, at that. So if Orien indeed gets airships, I'd foresee them to be faster than Lyrandar ones, but nearly un-maneuverable. I don't see why this would be the case, unless the Orien airships were mounted on aerial rails.;)
Dr. Benway 06-11-07, 08:06 PM	The thing that folks here seem to be missing here is that its not the ships or trains that are linked to the various house heirs, its the Wheel of Wind and Water and the Lightning Reins attatched to the vessels that do it. The devices were designed to allow ONLY the properly marked individuals to use them...not for flavor or 'it sounds right' but for greedy money grubbing industrialist reasons. Thematically it makes sense for Passage heirs to get to use them, but Storm heirs are their BIGGEST competitors...there is NO way Lyrander would allow Orien espescially to pilot their ships automatically. Something else to keep in mind is that altho airships are new, bound seagoing ships are not, and those use the same Wheel to pilot them. The last thing I might reitterate is that anyone can actually pilot one of these vessels, it just requires you to make an opposed CHA roll everytime you tell it to do something new. And dont forget, a feat to help that process does exist in MoE...its called Elemental Helmsman and gives you a +4 bonus to the roll. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
The Dreaming Duck 06-11-07, 08:18 PM	If an Orien heir can propel an air elemental-powered lightning rail train down a line of conductor stones, he should be able to will an air or fire elemental into propelling an airship. He should be every bit as capable as a Lyrandar heir. Sure. After all, if a guy in our world can run a train, he should be able to fly a jumbo jet, right? It's all in what you're looking for in the world. If you want to just say "It's magic! You just tell the elemental 'Fly to Sharn' and it does it" you obviously can. But in my opinion, that trivializes the role of the houses. In my campaign, there's a lot more to flying an airship then just telling the elemental to go forward. Someone on the ship DOES need to be able to commune with the elemental, certainly. But if you just randomly start givening it commands, you'll cause it to turn too sharply and kill the people inside, or sheer off the support columns. If you're piloting a lightning rail, you'll crash it right off the tracks and cause an enormous pileup. In my opinion, things like the Wheel of wind and water are vital tools. You can't run an airship without one. But even with one, piloting an airship is a profession, just like piloting a mundane ship or flying a plane. And it's something I represent using the Profession skill. Beyond that, I completely agree that the control mechanisms are keyed to specific marks in order to allow the houses to maintain their monopolies. Its likely possible to create an airship anyone could fly. But like the electric car, it's something the big boys don't want. Being the captain of a mundane sailing vessel takes skill. In my opinion, commanding an airship should take even more skill - it's a delicate vehicle moving in three dimensions, and beyond being able to convince the elemental TO move, you have to tell it HOW to move, you have to be able to plot courses, you have to be able to consider the impact of manuevers on passages and hull integrity, and so on. That's a profession, and it's what Lyrandar captains devote their lives to. At least, that's my two crowns.
Hellcow 06-11-07, 08:28 PM	...beyond being able to convince the elemental TO move, you have to tell it HOW to move, you have to be able to plot courses, you have to be able to consider the impact of manuevers on passages and hull integrity, and so on. That's a profession, and it's what Lyrandar captains devote their lives to. I'm inclined to agree. The standard rules given for airship control certainly work for emergencies. You can tell the elemental "Go straight" and straight it will go. So when your helmsman dies, you might be able to bring the ship down safely. But this is sort of like a modern airplane having something I could recognize as a steering wheel and an autopilot I might be able to turn on to keep it going straight. But that tells me nothing about the effects of air pressure, how to deal with weather systems, or what actions will place dangerous pressure on the ship itself. For extended voyages, I certainly think it makes sense to use a Profession skill for "airship sailor" or "rail captain" just as you'd use one for "sailor". Since it's a situation that won't come up often, I'd allow characters with the Elemental Helmsman feat to add the bonus to Profession skills tied to running elemental vehicles - after all, it's a feat with little use in most situations.
Darakhoranon 06-12-07, 09:06 AM	Good point. However, what about this: Our newfound friend, Aerion d´Orion did indeed learn how to pilot an airship (I still haven´t found out HOW he managed it - and neither have my friends in Zilargo...) - so he has at least a couple of ranks in "Profession (airship sailer)". He couldn´t use the Wheel of wind and water to steer the airship, and he´d have to enter a near constant battle of wills with the elemental (unless he uses dominate monster or something), but - provided he could control the elemental - why wouldn´t he ever be able to pilot the airship at least as well as a Lyrandar heir - especially one with fewer ranks in "Profession (airship sailor)"? And let´s not forget that there ARE airship captains who don´t carry the name "d´Lyrandar", so non-marked captains are possible. Not necessarily the best you can get, but still possible. So I think the best explanation for why MOST airship captains are d´Lyrandars is the one Ukkic and Dr. Benway mentioned: Keeping the house´s monopoly. A few "rogues" don´t matter (and can be quite useful...), but any serious attempt of house Orien to build an airship fleet would probably start another war...
Hellcow 06-12-07, 11:18 AM	So I think the best explanation for why MOST airship captains are d´Lyrandars is the one Ukkic and Dr. Benway mentioned: Keeping the house´s monopoly. A few "rogues" don´t matter (and can be quite useful...), but any serious attempt of house Orien to build an airship fleet would probably start another war... Sure - the monopoly aspect of the houses is something that's been put forward many times before, and is mentioned in, among other places, page 12 of Dragonmarked; page 50 of Dragonmarked even hints at an heir being tasked to destroy a rogue airship pilot. The houses haven't gotten to the positions of power they now hold by accident, and people who threaten them are putting themselves in danger (though yes, one single guy isn't necessarily a threat). But there's more to that monopoly that just the wheel. Consider: Airships are not commonplace. They've only been around for eight years. While airships are built in Zilargo, the design process required input from both House Lyrandar and House Cannith; aside from the actual issue of who can pilot it, the key is that the artificers of the House of Storms have a unique understanding of the forces of the sky, and can also conjure winds and control weather to assist in stress tests. Now that the initial breakthrough has been completed, it's possible that Zilargo could build its own ships without working with Lyrandar. But in the process, they lose the insights of Lyrandar for development of future vessels, and they risk the massive contracts they hold for Lyrandar air and sea vessels. Meanwhile, Lyrandar artificers COULD in theory learn Bind Elemental themselves; in theory, anyone can, though as a DM I'd certainly make you find a qualified teacher (just like learning a rare profession). So they could try to cut Zilargo out of the loop. But Zilargo has vast numbers of elemental binders who are experts at their trade, and they also have expert shipwrights and production facilities; building up a staff and facilities to match the Zil production line would be the work of decades. So either side COULD do without the other, but they both have a great deal to lose in the process. At the moment, the system works, they're both making good money, and why rock the airship? Now, Aerion has ranks in Profession: Airship Sailor. But where did these ranks come from? In reality, you can't just put ranks in a skill because you have points lying around. You either need a skilled instructor or hands-on experience. Airships are, at the moment, relatively rare and largely in the hands of House Lyrandar. So... who's training Aerion? Given that Orien is Lyrandar's greatest rival, and that the airship is Lyrandar's key weapon and most powerful asset at the moment, he's not taking classes with the Windwrights' Guild. Now, this could be a twofold process - no Lyrandar heir would train an Orien heir, but what we have is one of those rare rogue vessels run by a trained NON-Orien, and THAT person trains the Orien - but again, THAT person had to get ahold of what is, again, a very rare thing (non-Lyrandar airship), and do THEY really want to **** off the House of Storms by training one of their worst enemies? This also brings us back to monopolies. There are privateers out there; that's an established fact per the ECS. If the King's Citadel has a few private airships and trained pilots, that doesn't threaten Lyrandar too much. They'll be using these for covert insertions and the like, something they probably wouldn't use commercial transport for even if it was the only option; they'd just find some other way. But the moment an Orien heir has his own airship - that IS a serious threat, because Orien and Lyrandar are in direct competition. So I think Aerion is placing himself in far more danger flying an airship than Caskal Cayrion d'Sivis would be. A few "rogues" don't matter, especially if they've learned the trade from the Windwrights' Guild and even more so if they're smart enough to be licensed members of the guild (unlicensed privateers may not be seen as a great risk, but you can never rule out the Lightning Strike or a Storm Master deciding to take one down just to clean house - it's a risky road in comparison to taking the licensed path). But an ORIEN rogue is a different matter altogether, because by allowing an Orien access to the trade secrets of the house you are giving Orien a huge beachhead for a possible trade war. It's only made worse by the fact that yes, an Orien heir will have more innate experience handling elementals and would be more likely to have Elemental Helmsman. So would an Orien likely BE more capable of handling a ship because of his elemental experience? Probably; that's what things like Elemental Helmsman represent, and I'd say the best sources for this feat are the Windwrights' Guild and the Transportation Guild. But for that very reason I think he'd be perceived as a threat by Lyrandar and have to deal with industrial espionage where another rogue would be ignored... because the airship is Lyrandar's greatest edge in their competition with his house, and they won't let that go so easily. Don't get me wrong. it's not that a Lyrandar and Orien heir couldn't adventure in the same party or anything like that. But right now, the houses have their battlelines drawn. Lyrandar has air and water; Orien has land and teleportation. As long as they hold to those lines, things are stable. But when someone crosses those lines, the conflict will heat up - so Aerion's taking a big political gamble indulging his love of the sky.
Dr. Benway 06-16-07, 12:58 PM	Rereading the Elemental Helmsman feat I noticed that its even better than I thought. If you have the feat, you get +4 to the opposed Cha check with the elemental...if you are ALSO using a Wheel or Reins, then the bonus jumps to +10. Most elementals have a whopping 10 Charisma so you have a +10 vs their +0...and thats before any Cha bonus you might have on top of it. Pretty good chances there for even an average schmoe with that feat to get a ship under control... DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
Darakhoranon 06-18-07, 08:23 AM	Good points, oh Unholy Bovine, Master of Madness Incarnate... Seriously, though, I never said our friend Aerion would have a long career as an airship pilot. I only suggested that - provided he had somehow managed to pick up the necessary skills - he COULD steer that airship he´d... "liberated"... from House Lyrandar. He certainly wouldn´t fly FAR - but he´d fly...