Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jaerom Darkwind 02-16-07, 06:06 PM	Can a non-kalashtar follow the Path of Light, and if so, how common is it? (On a scale from uncommon to unheard-of, obviously ;) )
tallric_kruush 02-16-07, 06:28 PM	Can a non-kalashtar follow the Path of Light, and if so, how common is it? (On a scale from uncommon to unheard-of, obviously ;) ) I imagine some of the Adarans may follow the Path of Light, due to their close association with the Kalashtar. Aside from them, I imagine it's "unheard of". The whole point of the Path of Light is to speed the Turning of the Age in Dal Quor. That's not a goal many other than Kalashtar would hold.
ChristopherGroves 02-16-07, 06:28 PM	I could see a Warforged doing it easily, or perhaps a Changeling. Of the other (core races), I'd say it would be far more rare.
tallric_kruush 02-16-07, 06:30 PM	I could see a Warforged doing it easily, or perhaps a Changeling. Of the other (core races), I'd say it would be far more rare. Mind if I ask why? I'm not being confrontational, just curious. What appeal do you think the Path of Light would hold for these groups?
Roland the Crownbreaker 02-17-07, 04:13 PM	I can see warforged following the path of light far more easily than changelings. For a warforged, they could learn of their origins in Xen'drik, or just become close to a kalashtar.
Belabras 02-17-07, 09:30 PM	It can certainly happen, but the thing to remember is that Kalashtar generally don't talk that much about their secret war. Unlike most other religions, they aren't really interested in making converts as a rule. According to their beliefs, just through the will of the other Kalashtar followers, the turning of the age will come. That doesn't leave much motivation to proselytize.
tallric_kruush 02-17-07, 09:52 PM	It can certainly happen, but the thing to remember is that Kalashtar generally don't talk that much about their secret war. Unlike most other religions, they aren't really interested in making converts as a rule. According to their beliefs, just through the will of the other Kalashtar followers, the turning of the age will come. That doesn't leave much motivation to proselytize. Exactly. I would think talk of the "turning of the age" or whatnot would only reinforce the perception that Kalashtar are a little kooky. As I said above, and as Belabras said as well, the Path of Light isn't a belief system that many non-Kalashtar would even be interested in following. The entire point of the Path is to speed the end of il-Lashtavar and it's realm, so that a new Quor Tarai can arise. Very, very few non-Kalashtar are likely to jump on that wagon.
Jaerom Darkwind 02-19-07, 01:46 PM	Initially, I was thinking of psionicists of other races who might adopt the Path of Light because they liked the meditative and related teachings, but never really reach a kalashtar level of devotion. However, I just acquired a copy of Faiths of Eberron, and it states that "Humans are often priests of the Path of Light in Adar, and even dromites and other races of Sarlona have joined the Path." Also, "In Khorvaire, those who follow il-Yannah are almost entirely kalashtar, although a few other beings are also drawn to the idea of a universal force of positive energy and purity of spirit. In Adar, most people show at least some respect to the Path of Light." So, I guess problem solved.
tallric_kruush 02-19-07, 02:18 PM	I guess this is a good place to pose this question... Does anyone else think Lawful Good makes more sense as the alignment of il-Yannah than Lawful Neutral?? If the Path of Light is all about good deeds and such turning the age, and Kalashtar in general are so devoted to good, why in the world would il-Yannah not be a force of Good alignment? I've already house-ruled it as such and added Good to the cleric portfolio, but I'm just curious what others think. The more I learned about the Path of Light, the less LN seemed to fit.
davethebrave371 02-19-07, 02:21 PM	Kalashtar generally don't "spread the word" in Khorvaire, but those who find out about it might believe that the current "Age of Nightmare" might have something to do with why life sucks so much right now. Of course, it probably doesn't, and when people have sweet, fluffy dreams they can still have a crappy life, but it'd be appealing to people who want a simple solution. The Last War? Just because of Dal Quor's current age. If the Age turned, maybe we could get an age of peace and love!
tallric_kruush 02-19-07, 02:25 PM	If the Age turned, maybe we could get an age of peace and love! Keith Baker said over on his website said that (at least in his games) that's pretty much exactly what the Kalashtar believe. The planes all exert an influence on one another and on Eberron, and il-Lashtavar may very well be contributing some bad mojo to Eberron. The Kalashtar certainly think so, at least.
davethebrave371 02-19-07, 02:41 PM	That's why I think a lot of people, if they heard about it, would like the idea of it.
Jaerom Darkwind 02-19-07, 03:07 PM	I'll buy that.
tallric_kruush 02-19-07, 03:15 PM	I guess this is a good place to pose this question... Does anyone else think Lawful Good makes more sense as the alignment of il-Yannah than Lawful Neutral?? If the Path of Light is all about good deeds and such turning the age, and Kalashtar in general are so devoted to good, why in the world would il-Yannah not be a force of Good alignment? I've already house-ruled it as such and added Good to the cleric portfolio, but I'm just curious what others think. The more I learned about the Path of Light, the less LN seemed to fit. Feels strange quoting myself, but any thoughts on what I mentioned here? I'm afraid it got buried by that flurry of blasted on topic posts.;)
thebestideaieverhad 02-19-07, 07:09 PM	Id say lawful good makes more sense for very devoted kalashtar. But if you are going to have warforged, or more common races following the path neutral alignments would logically be more prevalent. Although, since Eberron is all about alignments being less restricted you could certainly see many "posers" seemingly lawful good while being neutral.
tallric_kruush 02-23-07, 12:28 PM	Id say lawful good makes more sense for very devoted kalashtar. But if you are going to have warforged, or more common races following the path neutral alignments would logically be more prevalent. Although, since Eberron is all about alignments being less restricted you could certainly see many "posers" seemingly lawful good while being neutral. Been away for a few days, and it also seems like the boards have been down anytime I've tried to drop in... I tend to see il-Yannah itself as a LG force. The name il-Yannah applies, not only to the faith/philosophy followed by the Kalashtar, but originally/primarily it is the name of the next Quor Tarai, the next dream of the age--an age of good and light. If il-Lashtavar is a force of LE alignment (which has finally been confirmed by SoS), it only makes sense that the age of light and goodness that the Kalashtar fight for would be LG--at least in my opinion. The coming age of peace and neutrality just doesn't seem to fit the bill.
Jaerom Darkwind 02-23-07, 06:02 PM	While we're on the topic, has anyone tried to connect the Path of Light to the Luminous Lodge organization in Complete Psionic? There seems to be several inherent parallels, and it occurs to me that both groups might be involved in the same purpose (though from different angles).
Shady314 02-23-07, 06:30 PM	I guess this is a good place to pose this question... Does anyone else think Lawful Good makes more sense as the alignment of il-Yannah than Lawful Neutral?? If the Path of Light is all about good deeds and such turning the age, and Kalashtar in general are so devoted to good, why in the world would il-Yannah not be a force of Good alignment? I've already house-ruled it as such and added Good to the cleric portfolio, but I'm just curious what others think. The more I learned about the Path of Light, the less LN seemed to fit. See the problem is you're confusing a good result with the religion itself. You also seem to think "Path of Light" is the worship of Il-Yannah a force the Kalashtar HOPE will be good. By this logic the BoV should be good and have good as a portfolio. If the mainstream BoV view was achieved every creature would be eternal and Eberron would be a paradise. But it is simply not the case that BoV is a "good" religion that should grant the portfolio good. 1) To be a GOOD god in the sense that you grant the portfolio GOOD the god needs to be an active force/or preach an activeness in spreading "good." However that particular faith may define it. The Path of Light teaches no such thing. It focuses on meditation and self-reflection/contemplation. It does NOT say go out and battle the forces of Il-Lashtavar for the good aka Il-Yannah. This is why most Kalashatar DON'T go out and fight. The teachings of Il-Yannah are neutral and promote/preach actions that are neither evil nor good. The religion requires discipline to maintain actively and correctly so that is Lawful Neutral. 2) The "Path of Light" does not worship Il-Yannah as a force and certainly not as a personified force that speaks to anyone. It's akin to the Silver Flame BEFORE Tira Miron jumped into it and gave it a Voice. Not completely akin though since Il-Yannah does not yet exist. It is a hope. A dream of a force that is counter to Il-Lashtavar. Most assume a force counter to the Dreaming Dark would be a Waking Light but this is not writ in stone anywhere. Some worry the next age could be just as bad. So don't be fooled by the name. "The Path of Light's main goal is to promote the turning of Dal Quor in the belief Dal Quor's turning is part of a cosmic balance." Important word there is balance. AKA Lawful Neutral. 3) The problem is that the Path of Light/Il-Yannah are very abstract and more akin to eastern philosophy than western religions with their good/evil dichotomy. But the Path of Light is more than Il-Yannah=God and Il-Lashtavar=The Devil. It is closer to buddhism which I think most would agree is a "neutral" religion. It also doesn't help that Il-Yannah and "Path of Light" can be used interchangeably to express the concept even though they are both separate and distinct entities within the religion itself. So even though sometimes it can seem Il-Yannah=Path of Light or vice versa (and some may worship that way) for the bulk the two are not equal and thus the alignment remains Lawful Neutral. 4) From a purely metagame standpoint the God's alignment only really matters because in defalt DnD you have to be close to it to worship the god and get spells. Not so in Eberron. You got your lawful good human cleric of the Path of Light battling Quori left and right killing civilians in the crossfire (maybe eventually becoming CE in the process) and meditating before he sleeps and you got your LN human commoner who tills a field and meditates for an hour before sleep who both follow the religion correctly. And that commoner might have so much faith he becomes an adept and continues doing the exact same thing. Il-Yannah isn't laying down commandments to her followers on what constitutes the correct course of action and neither is the clergy so the religion itself remains disciplined with no focus on good or evil. Discipline=Lawful and no moral focus equals Neutral.
Belabras 02-23-07, 06:32 PM	While we're on the topic, has anyone tried to connect the Path of Light to the Luminous Lodge organization in Complete Psionic? There seems to be several inherent parallels, and it occurs to me that both groups might be involved in the same purpose (though from different angles). No, but I have used an Ardent of the Light and Darkness mantle as a substitute for a cleric of the Path of Light
Jaerom Darkwind 02-23-07, 06:54 PM	Regarding the alignment of the Path of Light, FoE states that many of its followers do indeed train within the fortress-monasteries of Adar to fight the agents of the Dreaming Dark, and calls these warriors shadow watchers. The greatest of them are Lightspeakers (not to the confused with the Lightbringers, the masters of the more meditative aspect of the religion), and "lead the fight against darkness, whatever form it takes," and lead strike teams against quori agents. And then there's this: The Path of Light is at once intensely personal and selflessly altruistic. This seeming contradiction vanishes through understanding its purpose. Survival demands that the lightspeakers keep their devotion hidden, for enemies are everywhere--and those enemies can sometimes sense the light within. Yet spreading the Light demands that priests do good works, understand their neighbors, and encourage more such behavior. The lightspeakers are very humble in this duty, and this is not only because being noticed can means death.So I'd say yes, LG is probably the best alignment, and it still allows for a largish body of LN priests.
Shady314 02-23-07, 07:09 PM	Regarding the alignment of the Path of Light, FoE states that many of its followers do indeed train within the fortress-monasteries of Adar to fight the agents of the Dreaming Dark, and calls these warriors shadow watchers. The key word used is many. As in, it is not too unsual for there to be militant members of the Path of Light. There is a reason they don't say MOST. Many=a lot without being a majority. Most=majority. The greatest of them are Lightspeakers (not to the confused with the Lightbringers, the masters of the more meditative aspect of the religion), You do realize this supports LN. Just because thereis a sect of the Path of Light that focuses on goodness does not mean the entirety of the religion follows that. That's why it is a sect. and "lead the fight against darkness, whatever form it takes," and lead strike teams against quori agents. Right like I said there's definitely Kalashtar and worshippers of the Path of Light that do this. But NOT because their religion tells them they must! That is key to a religions overall alignment. And then there's this: Originally Posted by Faiths of Eberron, pp 127-128 The Path of Light is at once intensely personal and selflessly altruistic. It's altruistic because the Kalashtar and any worshippers are taking it upon themselves to bring about the turning of Dal Quor in the hope that this will make Eberron as a whole slightly better place.And Riedra a much better place ;) but Riedra came centuries after the Path. Another important point. When the Path of Light was created Kalashtar didn't even know he Quori had followed them. And Sarlona was not home to Riedra or the Inspired. Perhaps the religion might have focused more on fighting evil if that had been the case but it was't and it doesn't. So now followers are heavily persecuted and thus it is often necessary to take up arms to defend it. But taking up arms to defend yourself against evil opponents does not make you "good" in the sense clerics should have the portfolio good. This seeming contradiction vanishes through understanding its purpose. Survival demands that the lightspeakers keep their devotion hidden, for enemies are everywhere--and those enemies can sometimes sense the light within. Yet spreading the Light demands that priests do good works, understand their neighbors, and encourage more such behavior. The lightspeakers are very humble in this duty, and this is not only because being noticed can means death. Notice HUMBLE usually is talked about in religions that are overall neutral. Like the Path. Notice they are talking about lightspeakers. A militant sect devoted to stopping Quori and keeping evil from spreading but NOT spreading goodness and not the majority of the religion. Doing good works is to counter the bad works of other Quori. Their good is meant to balance out the current nastiness of Dal Quor. Balance supports LN. A paragraph on a single sect in FoE does not invalidate the ECS and majority view of the religion. So I'd say yes, LG is probably the best alignment, and it still allows for a largish body of LN priests. No LN is the best alignment that's why the alignment of the Path IS LN canonically. It is interesting your posts actually support making the religion LN but you misinterpret them to support LG.
Jaerom Darkwind 02-23-07, 07:29 PM	The key word used is many. As in, it is not too unsual for there to be militant members of the Path of Light. There is a reason they don't say MOST. Many=a lot without being a majority. Most=majority.Except that the lightbringers, those who follow the more medatative branch, are also described as "many", and not most. No position is attributed to "most". You do realize this supports LN. Just because thereis a sect of the Path of Light that focuses on goodness does not mean the entirety of the religion follows that. That's why it is a sect.You lost me there. All I did was state the designation for the greatest of the shadow watchers. It doesn't support anything. Right like I said there's definitely Kalashtar and worshippers of the Path of Light that do this. But NOT because their religion tells them they must! That is key to a religions overall alignment.Actually, good works are mentioned throughout the entry on the religion, and it states that good works and positive actions reinforce the Light. It's altruistic because the Kalashtar and any worshippers are taking it upon themselves to bring about the turning of Dal Quor in the hope that this will make Eberron as a whole slightly better place. And Riedra a much better place ;) but Riedra came centuries after the Path. Another important point. When the Path of Light was created Kalashtar didn't even know the Quori had followed them. And Sarlona was not home to Riedra or the Inspired. Perhaps the religion might have focused more on fighting evil if that had been the case but it was't and it doesn't. So now followers are heavily persecuted and thus it is often necessary to take up arms to defend it. But taking up arms to defend yourself against evil opponents does not make you "good" in the sense clerics should have the portfolio good.Altruism is one of the defining characteristics of D&D good. Notice HUMBLE usually is talked about in religions that are overall neutral. Like the Path.Actually, I've never noticed that. I do know that Pelorians, for example, are often described as humble, and their god is NG. Notice they are talking about lightspeakers. A militant sect devoted to stopping Quori and keeping evil from spreading but NOT spreading goodness and not the majority of the religion.At some point in the entry they seem to start using 'lightspeaker' to refer to all members of the religion. At least, non-lightspeakers get no mention after about a page or so. And at the beginning of the section, it says that all priests of the Path do good works, not just lightseekers. Doing good works is to counter the bad works of other Quori. Their good is meant to balance out the current nastiness of Dal Quor. Balance supports LN.Good acts are good acts. A religion that encourages good acts can rightly be viewed as good. At least, IMO. A paragraph on a single sect in FoE does not invalidate the ECS and majority view of the religion.Oh, you mean the one, brief paragraph in the ECS? FoE is a canonical source, as far as I know, and it seems to strongly suggest that the Path is a LG religion, while still nominally labeling it with the standard LN. You have a choice: you can either disregard the flavor text that disagrees with this alignment (which seems to be your preference), or you can change the official alignment to match the flavor text (tallric_kruush's preference). It doesn't matter to me either way, since my lightbringer is TN(G). It is interesting your posts actually support making the religion LN but you misinterpret them to support LG.That doesn't seem to be true, but we seem to be interpreting a lot of things differently today, you and I.
ChristopherGroves 02-23-07, 11:12 PM	Mind if I ask why? I'm not being confrontational, just curious. What appeal do you think the Path of Light would hold for these groups? There's the obvious "maybe" quori part in the origin of the 'forged ... and that could be enough to make one think. For Changelings ... I don't know. I can just see it somehow.
Shady314 02-23-07, 11:22 PM	Except that the lightbringers, those who follow the more medatative branch, are also described as "many", and not most. No position is attributed to "most". Let's just assume the one that more closely aligns with the canonical alignment given in every sourcebook is the most prevalent one. That'd be where the "most" comes from. ;) You lost me there. All I did was state the designation for the greatest of the shadow watchers. It doesn't support anything. Yes and the lightspeakers are a SECT. AKA a smaller branch of a religion that interprets things slightly differently. It also mentioned the LightBringers which by mentioning them was mentioning the LN aspects of the religion you decided to gloss over talking about the LightSpeakers. Actually, good works are mentioned throughout the entry on the religion, and it states that good works and positive actions reinforce the Light. And what god doesn't believe in doing "good" works? Of course the god/religion determines what good works are and we have seen at least part of doing good work in the Path of Light is ascetism and meditation. NOT going out to slay evil. Some have decided relatively recently to take the fight to them and thus the atavist prestige class was born. Altruism is one of the defining characteristics of D&D good. But by this definition Kaius is LG because he's so altruistic and wants to save Karnath and stop Vol. But he's not. He's LE because of how he goes about it. Now we know very little about Kaius personally and the alignment descriptor is meant to give us more info. It may seem contradictory to the flavor text but that's only because he's a complicated guy. (OR maybe because vampires are supposed to be evil) Not because it was an awful, horrible mistake. A DM can go ahead and change his alignment to LG if they wanted and I have no problem with DMs rule zeroing but the OP asked for opinions and gave misguided statements as to why he felt the PoL should be recognized as LG and I felt the need to point out why it IS LN in the books. To sum up. I have no problems with changing it just disagree that the PoL must clearly be LG and KB is an idiot for not realizing it when he thought up the PoL. Actually, I've never noticed that. I do know that Pelorians, for example, are often described as humble, and their god is NG. UM I said "Notice HUMBLE usually is talked about in religions that are overall neutral. Like the Path." and you brought up a Neutral religion? where the god does NOT grant the good portfolio. :rofl: Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? At some point in the entry they seem to start using 'lightspeaker' to refer to all members of the religion. At least, non-lightspeakers get no mention after about a page or so. And at the beginning of the section, it says that all priests of the Path do good works, not just lightseekers. Sure because the religion isn't evil. I am certainly not saying the PoL is in anyway evil. But you're acting like a religion with a morality has to be GOOD. Which is simply a poor understanding of "neutral." But you're acting like because the author either got lazy delineating the sects he created or just got taken with the speakers(not surprising since which group is a PC most likely going to belong to?) more than the bringers everything we knew before about the PoL is invalidated. Good acts are good acts. A religion that encourages good acts can rightly be viewed as good. At least, IMO. Ok well that's obviously utterly incorrect especially in Eberron. I suppose it's not your fault. DnD does give out the good and evil portfolio like candy. Pelor may be the only good god that doesn't have the good domain. :) The question here is what is "good" works to a Lightspeaker? It's labeled separately from fighting evil after all. Charity? Perhaps but that's because the PoL favors ascetism. Is it community building? Perhaps but that's because everyone in Adar is in this together. At least the siege anyways, if not the secret war. Refresh my memory (honestly not rhetorical) is it ever stated that these good works are believed to speed up the coming of Il-Yannah? Or do they just believe in simple human decency? Oh, you mean the one, brief paragraph in the ECS? FoE is a canonical source, as far as I know, and it seems to strongly suggest that the Path is a LG religion, while still nominally labeling it with the standard LN. You have a choice: you can either disregard the flavor text that disagrees with this alignment (which seems to be your preference), or you can change the official alignment to match the flavor text (tallric_kruush's preference). It doesn't matter to me either way, since my lightbringer is TN(G). I'm not saying FoE is not canonical. I LIKE FoE. But you say it yourself. It SUGGESTS it's a LG religion (suggestion means IN YOUR MIND) and yet they labeled it LN.... Which brings us to option #3 which is reconciling your viewpoint with the given information. In these kinds of incidents there's only two possibilities. A typo of some kind or the reader is misconstruing what they've read. It's like the endless Aurala can't be NG! and Kaius must be Good not Evil! threads. Or "How can Krozen cast spells!" The flavor text to a lot of people "suggests" (dangerous word) Aurala is evil. But the alignment descriptor is meant to be a further clarification. It's not a mistake. And the flavor text of Kaius suggests a certain amount of altruism but they are just reading into things. The LE alignment descriptor is meant to show you the kind of person Kaius is. It may not jive with every action he takes but that's not what alignment is. It's a simple misunderstanding of the whole. People seem to have real trouble accepting evil can do good and vice versa. That doesn't seem to be true, but we seem to be interpreting a lot of things differently today, you and I. Hence discussion. :) I leave you with this paraphrasing of the ECS. This religion is more of a philosophy than a mode of worship, and its followers are mainly Kalashtar with a smattering of human devotees who are attracted to a clean and abstract faith. (The Kalashtar themselves make no attempt to spread its tenets beyond their race.) It reveres a universal force of positive energy called il-Yannah, or "The Great Light". Followers try to perfect and harmonize their mind and body in preparation for a great battle with the forces of darkness (generally identified with the empire of Riedra on the continent of Sarlona, which the Kalashtar escaped). The domains of this religion are Law, Protection, and Meditation, and the favored weapon is an unarmed strike. The domains are meant to show the focus of a god/religion. Good is not important to the PoL as much as other things are. Even if you think the alignment should be LG there's no way it should grant good as a domain.
tallric_kruush 02-24-07, 02:16 PM	The domains are meant to show the focus of a god/religion. Good is not important to the PoL as much as other things are. Even if you think the alignment should be LG there's no way it should grant good as a domain. Wow. This discussion has taken off since yesterday. In reading all the arguments for and against the LG alignment, I'm surprised it took so long for this to be offered. I would be in favor of this, I guess. I definitely think flavor in all the publications overwhelmingly dictates LG for the alignment of the il-Yannah philosophy. Clearly, not everyone will agree, and they have canon on their side. I pretty much got the feeling, though, that this issue of granting the Good domain to PoL clerics was the only reason the writers went with LN. However, Shady314's stance above showed me how others might legitimately view il-Yannnah as a LN force, and not just do so for metagame reasons such as: "we've already given the PoL 3 domains, and we wouldn't want it to step on the toes of the Silver Flame or the good-aligned Sovereigns." I may consider doing things this way, then: il-Yannah is LG (that won't change in my games ;) ), but does not grant the Good domain. This would make sense, as it really doesn't produce the same types of champions of good one would expect of a "good religion". The good-aligned monk, soulknife, atavist--he's probably the closest thing a stict follower of il-Yannah will be to a Paladin. He might fight evil in all it's forms, etc... but his main focus is still likely resisting the Dreaming Dark (particularly if he's Kalashtar, as almost all followers of the PoL would be in Khorvaire). I am glad someone finally took interest in this discussion. I sometimes think the "how do I justify this or that template" discussions overshadow the meatier fluff related questions. I guess this one's mostly fluff, a little crunch.