Philosophy Study Help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Philosophy Study Help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Elliot22
03-04-08, 05:57 PM I am taking a Philospophy class, and we were learning about the different Philosophies and religion. Now, I like to tie in my interests to my studies to help me remember for tests and I was wondering if you guys could help.
We learned about
Monotheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism)
Polytheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytheism)
Pantheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism)
Henotheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism)
Deism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism)
Animism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism)

Now, what I need help with is what Religion in Eberron matches the Religions I learned. I'm assuming...
Monotheism = Silver Flame
Polytheism = Soverign Host and Dark Six...

But the others I'm not 100% sure about. So can somone help me study?
Nexusdragon
03-04-08, 06:22 PM From my perspective:

Aerenai and the Undying Court = Pantheism

The Reforged and the Lord of Blades cult (and il-Yannah, the Path of Light, I suppose) = Deism

Talenta Halflings, Scorpion-based Xen'drik Drow, Druid Sects = Animism

The Becoming God = Henotheism

Path of Inspiration = Monotheism (Not literally, but they deny that other religions re anything but a sham, which runs in the same vein as the principles of monotheism)

I would also amend your assertion that the Church of the Silver Flame is monotheistic and say they are henotheistic. As far as I know, there are no religions in Eberron that deny the existence of the other gods (Magic has a funny way of proving things to non-believers).
Elliot22
03-04-08, 06:29 PM I always forget some of the non-Khorvaire Mainstream religions, looks like I will have to go back and read up on them, but the only thing I will comment on is the Silver Flame.
I see them as a Monotheistic religion for two reasons, one I see the Silver Flame as Eberrons version of Christianity..
Two, I guess it is more of the Zealot side of Silver Flame religion, but in the Faiths of Eberron book there is a line on page 65 and I quote "The Purified have a simple attitude toward the other religions of Eberron: They're all wrong." Which in my book says they don't believe they see other gods or believes as real, and that the silver flame is the only god.
Syltorian
03-04-08, 09:07 PM Two, I guess it is more of the Zealot side of Silver Flame religion, but in the Faiths of Eberron book there is a line on page 65 and I quote "The Purified have a simple attitude toward the other religions of Eberron: They're all wrong." Which in my book says they don't believe they see other gods or believes as real, and that the silver flame is the only god.

They are wrong... for a certain quantity and definition of wrong.

The Purified do not say: "Dol Arrah does not exist!"
They do not smash Kol Korran's idols yelling: "Heathen idol worship!"
They do not preach: "And worship ye not that demon-lord Aureon!"

Unless you really have a blinded fanatic on your hands, of course. But he will not be endorsed by Flamekeep.

The Flame agrees that the Six and Nine exist. They even agree that the Sovereigns did a passable to good job getting the world this far. Where the Sovereign Host religion goes wrong is in failing to recognise that they can only keep the status-quo - but the Silver Flame can improve the world.

Worshipping the Sovereign Host is futile and wrong in the way it would be wrong to, say, use opium as a narcotic for medical operations. It exists, it works, was perhaps necessary when nothing else was available, but there are better ways now. Remember Tira Miron was a paladin of Dol Arrah!

Same goes for the druids. The Flame recognises they do good. But they could do better if they embraced the Flame. And from the Flame's point of view, if you are doing a smaller amount of good when doing a greater good is possible, you are in the wrong.

The Dark Six also exist, but they are evil. Or at best, destructive and dangerous. Worshipping them is wrong morally, in addition to the above, but not simplistic idolatry. This may come closer to the idea of converting gods into demons, which has happened in our own history, but I believe that process started long before the Church of the Silver Flame was even thought about by the Prophecy.

The only religion the Flame might see as completely misguided is the Blood of Vol.

Also, I do not think any of the Purified would seriously see the Flame as a god. It is an ideal, a force, but not a god. That implies something that has a personality. In that sense, the Silver Flame is not -theism (from Greek theos, God) at all.

Exclusive Monotheism does not really seem to exist in Eberron. The Blood of Vol denies all gods, but puts no other in its place (instead they venerate an abstract force). It does not claim they do not exist, though - in fact, their main argument being that the gods deceived mortals, they need to believe in the existence of these gods. Same for the Path of Inspiration, which might be borderline animist. They claim the gods are fiends... but they exist. Some Radiant Idols or demons or dragons setting themselves up might come up with exclusive worship, but no major religion that I can think of does this.

I could well imagine a Purified who also holds druidic, sovereign, il-yannah beliefs. He might have some problems with the purified, but the moderates will not launch an inquisition or heresy trials here. Actually, it says that some kalashtar are fascinated by the Flame and come close to mixing believes. Where they do not contradict, that should be possible - one of my characters, for instance, is a Paladin of the Flame who also holds some druidic believes from the Reaches where she grew up. She will not get that teaching post at Flamekeep, and has to avoid some of the worse fanatics and stay out of Thaliost, but the Flame does not require exclusive attention.
ChaoticGood
03-05-08, 03:25 AM Now, what I need help with is what Religion in Eberron matches the Religions I learned. I'm assuming...
Monotheism = Silver Flame
Polytheism = Soverign Host and Dark Six...

As pointed out by Syltorian, this just isn't going to be as cut-and-dried as a one-to-one conversion. There are many shades and styles of the religions of Eberron, just as there are in the real world.

For example, while there are clearly a lot of people who accept all of the members of the Sovereign Host as necessary deities (polytheism), there are just as many people who revere one Sovereign above the others (henotheism, or more specifically, kathenotheism). For example, a farmer may worship Arawai almost to the exclusion of the others, because Arawai's dominion covers pretty much all of his important concerns... but when the Next War starts and he's drafted into the army, he'll put Arawai aside and take up regular devotion to Dol Dorn.

The Undying Court appears, at first glance, to be a pantheistic faith. But don't forget that the Valenar are "officially" followers of the Undying Court, and their faith is clearly animistic in nature, concerned more with pleasing individual spirits (specifically that of their namesake ancestor) than in pleasing any overarching cosmic presence.

I agree with 99% of what Syltorian said about the Silver Flame. To write them off as "Eberron's version of Christianity" is to ignore the fantastic diversity of the Flame's followers. Not only are there varied degrees of devotion in the Church proper, from the average Purified to the craziest Zealot, but consider all of the "unofficial" followers of the Flame. I'm thinking specifically of the Couatl cults and the orcs and half-orcs who worship the Kaalok Shash. They clearly follow the ideals of the Flame, despite having little to no awareness of the Flame's manifestation, Voice, or Speaker. To my mind, this makes the teachings of the Flame a deist faith, because it is the universal principle of doing what is right at all costs... and that principle needs no secret revelations or anointed leader to speak for it.
OctaviusIII
03-06-08, 04:01 AM Heh, I fear we are muddying the issue, but I hope this all has been helpful. It does get into how fuzzy the boundaries are in religion, however, which is exactly how religions do work in the real world. Still, you're somewhat right with a surface glance at the religions.

If the Silver Flame worshiped the Flame as the only God, then they would be monotheistic. If the Purified worshipped the Flame as the only god worth worshipping, they would be henotheistic. If they believed the Flame was a force that flows through all things ('binds us, protects us...'), they would be pantheists. If someone believed that each worships the Flame in their own way, as described above, and that each is equally important, they would be a deist.

In the Sovereign Host, those that worship all the gods in the pantheon are polytheists. Those that worship one above the others is a henotheist.

Those that worship spirits in all things, those are animists, and I can't think of a good Eberron allegory off the cuff.

Just thought I'd summarize what's already been said.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elliot22 03-04-08, 05:57 PM	I am taking a Philospophy class, and we were learning about the different Philosophies and religion. Now, I like to tie in my interests to my studies to help me remember for tests and I was wondering if you guys could help. We learned about Monotheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism) Polytheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytheism) Pantheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism) Henotheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism) Deism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism) Animism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism) Now, what I need help with is what Religion in Eberron matches the Religions I learned. I'm assuming... Monotheism = Silver Flame Polytheism = Soverign Host and Dark Six... But the others I'm not 100% sure about. So can somone help me study?
Nexusdragon 03-04-08, 06:22 PM	From my perspective: Aerenai and the Undying Court = Pantheism The Reforged and the Lord of Blades cult (and il-Yannah, the Path of Light, I suppose) = Deism Talenta Halflings, Scorpion-based Xen'drik Drow, Druid Sects = Animism The Becoming God = Henotheism Path of Inspiration = Monotheism (Not literally, but they deny that other religions re anything but a sham, which runs in the same vein as the principles of monotheism) I would also amend your assertion that the Church of the Silver Flame is monotheistic and say they are henotheistic. As far as I know, there are no religions in Eberron that deny the existence of the other gods (Magic has a funny way of proving things to non-believers).
Elliot22 03-04-08, 06:29 PM	I always forget some of the non-Khorvaire Mainstream religions, looks like I will have to go back and read up on them, but the only thing I will comment on is the Silver Flame. I see them as a Monotheistic religion for two reasons, one I see the Silver Flame as Eberrons version of Christianity.. Two, I guess it is more of the Zealot side of Silver Flame religion, but in the Faiths of Eberron book there is a line on page 65 and I quote "The Purified have a simple attitude toward the other religions of Eberron: They're all wrong." Which in my book says they don't believe they see other gods or believes as real, and that the silver flame is the only god.
Syltorian 03-04-08, 09:07 PM	Two, I guess it is more of the Zealot side of Silver Flame religion, but in the Faiths of Eberron book there is a line on page 65 and I quote "The Purified have a simple attitude toward the other religions of Eberron: They're all wrong." Which in my book says they don't believe they see other gods or believes as real, and that the silver flame is the only god. They are wrong... for a certain quantity and definition of wrong. The Purified do not say: "Dol Arrah does not exist!" They do not smash Kol Korran's idols yelling: "Heathen idol worship!" They do not preach: "And worship ye not that demon-lord Aureon!" Unless you really have a blinded fanatic on your hands, of course. But he will not be endorsed by Flamekeep. The Flame agrees that the Six and Nine exist. They even agree that the Sovereigns did a passable to good job getting the world this far. Where the Sovereign Host religion goes wrong is in failing to recognise that they can only keep the status-quo - but the Silver Flame can improve the world. Worshipping the Sovereign Host is futile and wrong in the way it would be wrong to, say, use opium as a narcotic for medical operations. It exists, it works, was perhaps necessary when nothing else was available, but there are better ways now. Remember Tira Miron was a paladin of Dol Arrah! Same goes for the druids. The Flame recognises they do good. But they could do better if they embraced the Flame. And from the Flame's point of view, if you are doing a smaller amount of good when doing a greater good is possible, you are in the wrong. The Dark Six also exist, but they are evil. Or at best, destructive and dangerous. Worshipping them is wrong morally, in addition to the above, but not simplistic idolatry. This may come closer to the idea of converting gods into demons, which has happened in our own history, but I believe that process started long before the Church of the Silver Flame was even thought about by the Prophecy. The only religion the Flame might see as completely misguided is the Blood of Vol. Also, I do not think any of the Purified would seriously see the Flame as a god. It is an ideal, a force, but not a god. That implies something that has a personality. In that sense, the Silver Flame is not -theism (from Greek theos, God) at all. Exclusive Monotheism does not really seem to exist in Eberron. The Blood of Vol denies all gods, but puts no other in its place (instead they venerate an abstract force). It does not claim they do not exist, though - in fact, their main argument being that the gods deceived mortals, they need to believe in the existence of these gods. Same for the Path of Inspiration, which might be borderline animist. They claim the gods are fiends... but they exist. Some Radiant Idols or demons or dragons setting themselves up might come up with exclusive worship, but no major religion that I can think of does this. I could well imagine a Purified who also holds druidic, sovereign, il-yannah beliefs. He might have some problems with the purified, but the moderates will not launch an inquisition or heresy trials here. Actually, it says that some kalashtar are fascinated by the Flame and come close to mixing believes. Where they do not contradict, that should be possible - one of my characters, for instance, is a Paladin of the Flame who also holds some druidic believes from the Reaches where she grew up. She will not get that teaching post at Flamekeep, and has to avoid some of the worse fanatics and stay out of Thaliost, but the Flame does not require exclusive attention.
ChaoticGood 03-05-08, 03:25 AM	Now, what I need help with is what Religion in Eberron matches the Religions I learned. I'm assuming... Monotheism = Silver Flame Polytheism = Soverign Host and Dark Six... As pointed out by Syltorian, this just isn't going to be as cut-and-dried as a one-to-one conversion. There are many shades and styles of the religions of Eberron, just as there are in the real world. For example, while there are clearly a lot of people who accept all of the members of the Sovereign Host as necessary deities (polytheism), there are just as many people who revere one Sovereign above the others (henotheism, or more specifically, kathenotheism). For example, a farmer may worship Arawai almost to the exclusion of the others, because Arawai's dominion covers pretty much all of his important concerns... but when the Next War starts and he's drafted into the army, he'll put Arawai aside and take up regular devotion to Dol Dorn. The Undying Court appears, at first glance, to be a pantheistic faith. But don't forget that the Valenar are "officially" followers of the Undying Court, and their faith is clearly animistic in nature, concerned more with pleasing individual spirits (specifically that of their namesake ancestor) than in pleasing any overarching cosmic presence. I agree with 99% of what Syltorian said about the Silver Flame. To write them off as "Eberron's version of Christianity" is to ignore the fantastic diversity of the Flame's followers. Not only are there varied degrees of devotion in the Church proper, from the average Purified to the craziest Zealot, but consider all of the "unofficial" followers of the Flame. I'm thinking specifically of the Couatl cults and the orcs and half-orcs who worship the Kaalok Shash. They clearly follow the ideals of the Flame, despite having little to no awareness of the Flame's manifestation, Voice, or Speaker. To my mind, this makes the teachings of the Flame a deist faith, because it is the universal principle of doing what is right at all costs... and that principle needs no secret revelations or anointed leader to speak for it.
OctaviusIII 03-06-08, 04:01 AM	Heh, I fear we are muddying the issue, but I hope this all has been helpful. It does get into how fuzzy the boundaries are in religion, however, which is exactly how religions do work in the real world. Still, you're somewhat right with a surface glance at the religions. If the Silver Flame worshiped the Flame as the only God, then they would be monotheistic. If the Purified worshipped the Flame as the only god worth worshipping, they would be henotheistic. If they believed the Flame was a force that flows through all things ('binds us, protects us...'), they would be pantheists. If someone believed that each worships the Flame in their own way, as described above, and that each is equally important, they would be a deist. In the Sovereign Host, those that worship all the gods in the pantheon are polytheists. Those that worship one above the others is a henotheist. Those that worship spirits in all things, those are animists, and I can't think of a good Eberron allegory off the cuff. Just thought I'd summarize what's already been said.