Planar Shenanigans or Give me a New Book [Archive] - Wizards Community

Planar Shenanigans or Give me a New Book [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jonasty
04-27-07, 01:39 PM I don't know if this has been posted already or if anyone has heard anything but I would like to request/inquire/toss out there, about a book specifically detailing the various Planes of Eberron. I am a big fan of plane hopping when PCs reach a certain level and the ECS only has minimal info about the cosmology of Eberron.

I've seen the list of books for the rest of the year and am psyched for Forge of War and Dragons of Eberron and just wanted to toss this idea out there and find out about it. One thing that really got me stoked for this was reading Keith Baker's Eberron trilogy of novels. Not to spoil them but they give a really amazing description of the fey plane (Thelanis if I'm remembering the right name). Its so unbelievable and well thought out and I immediately wanted to send my players there. :D But yeah, any thoughts or knowledge on this?
Euangelion
04-27-07, 03:50 PM IMHO, an Eberron Planar Handbook is one of three essential sourcebooks yet to be written (a book(s) on the "other" nations of Khorvaire, and one on Khyber being the other two) for Eberron. The planes of Eberron are for the most part so different than standard D&D cosmology that most of the generic planar material is of little value to an Eberron campaign without serious modifications. I feel your pain. Here's hoping for 2008 (and Keith being involved directly with the project itself.)
Rerecros
04-27-07, 06:34 PM need tips on Planar Shenanigans in Eberron?
just read up on the collective works of H.P.Lovecraft.
Eberron's planarology is heavily based on his works.
yrogerg
04-27-07, 07:51 PM The planes of Eberron are for the most part so different than standard D&D cosmology that most of the generic planar material is of little value to an Eberron campaign without serious modifications.

FWIW, Manual of the Planes is still somewhat useful, since Dal Quor, Xoriat, Risia, Thelanis, and Lamannia are all in there as variant planes, while Dolurrh, Krythi, Daanvi, Irian, and Mabar are only slightly modifed from the appropriate Wheel Planes. Fernia, Shavarath, and Syrannia require more work, but you can use the smatterings of multiple Wheel planes they draw from for inspiration, all the same.

That said, the resulting flavor and information is extremely general (even for the variant planes), and the devil, is, after all, in the details.
ArcTan
04-27-07, 11:24 PM need tips on Planar Shenanigans in Eberron?
just read up on the collective works of H.P.Lovecraft.
Eberron's planarology is heavily based on his works.

No, not really.

Lovecraft's view of Outer Space and the Great Old Ones and so forth is kind of like Xoriat.

Lovecraft's view of the Dreamlands is kind of like Dal Quor.

Neither one is an exact match even in broad strokes, though (the daelkyr are somewhat different from any Lovecraft race I can think of; the Dreamlands, though sinister, have nothing like il-Lashtavar or the quori).

So no, it's not really a good source except for general tone.
Rerecros
04-28-07, 06:48 PM I know they didn't directly use any thing from lovecraft, but they did stay true to his general themes. Much of his stories revolved around extaplanar incousions, which is covered under possessions and coterminous periods. And his treatment of humanity as a temporary insignifigance and the alien superiority of outsiders, which goes with human souls rotting in Dolugh, as opposed to the contest for mortal souls that goes on in the great wheel. And there is the ancient undefeatable manace that is Kyber that draws in cults of mad worshippers. And Mabar seems to be drawn from a colour out of space.
ArcTan
04-28-07, 07:43 PM Mabar's a lot more like the Negative Energy Plane from Core D&D than the Colour Out of Space.

And, really, Eberron's cosmology *supports* a Lovecraft-like view of the insignificance of humanity but can go the other way, too. The actions of the quori actually support the idea that humanity is *very* important to them, at least en masse. And the existence of a plane like Syrania throws a wrench into the whole "evil, uncaring universe" schtick.
sciborg2
05-04-07, 12:48 PM And, really, Eberron's cosmology *supports* a Lovecraft-like view of the insignificance of humanity but can go the other way, too.

Heh, never thought of it that way. Good point!
Wizardman
05-05-07, 06:57 PM And, really, Eberron's cosmology *supports* a Lovecraft-like view of the insignificance of humanity but can go the other way, too. The actions of the quori actually support the idea that humanity is *very* important to them, at least en masse.

Hasn't Hellcow implied that there's a somewhat symbiotic relationship between the Outer Planes and the Prime Material? There's the example of Dal Quor, and there also has to be a reason for the daelkyr to invade Eberron (it doesn't have to make any sense to us, but there has to be a reason). Dolurrh is another one. It's even more connected to Eberron than Dal Quor; most mortals visit Dal Quor every night, but almost all mortals make a trip to Dolurrh-- and even those very few mortals that do return eventually go permanently.
lrellok
05-05-07, 07:20 PM I think the need for a revival of Spell Jammer is glaringly apparent. At the very least, and explenation of how the assorted cosmologies interact would be vastly appreciated by myself, if no one else.

Personaly, i would like to see a structure using the "far realms" as deep space, and the prime matereal planes as planets, and their associated planar realms as solar systems of sorts. This would allow settings like Forgotten realms and Grey hawk to be in the same solar system (lets call it the Sigil system), while Eberon is in a diferant solar system, or possibly a seperate gallexy.
Rerecros
05-07-07, 03:40 AM The actions of the quori actually support the idea that humanity is *very* important to them, at least en masse.

And that puts the value of humanoids as a natural resource, to be used and discarded when necessary.

and there also has to be a reason for the daelkyr to invade Eberron

yes, but their activities put humanoids at a very low priorty, they spent much of their time trying to wipe them off the face of eberron.

Dolurrh is another one. It's even more connected to Eberron than Dal Quor; most mortals visit Dal Quor every night, but almost all mortals make a trip to Dolurrh-- and even those very few mortals that do return eventually go permanently.

I'm not sure how this is supposed to disagree with me.
HPL's works did include undead (the outsider being a personal favorite)
HPL depicted the afterlife not bing infinitely better (heaven) or infinitely worse (hell) than life, it just is.

And the existence of a plane like Syrania throws a wrench into the whole "evil, uncaring universe" schtick.

The fact Eberron opposes the idea of powerful NPCs comming to save the day, combined with the lack of angels from eberron's history makes me think that eberron's more celestial denizens want little to do with the prime. They probably just think of most humanoids as moderatley harmless fiends.

Now I'm not trying to say the Eberron is ripping off HPL, I'm just saying that HPL is a great resource for extraplanar encounters in Eberron.
ArcTan
05-08-07, 01:49 AM I think the need for a revival of Spell Jammer is glaringly apparent. At the very least, and explenation of how the assorted cosmologies interact would be vastly appreciated by myself, if no one else.

Personaly, i would like to see a structure using the "far realms" as deep space, and the prime matereal planes as planets, and their associated planar realms as solar systems of sorts. This would allow settings like Forgotten realms and Grey hawk to be in the same solar system (lets call it the Sigil system), while Eberon is in a diferant solar system, or possibly a seperate gallexy.

I would absolutely not want this. The whole reason they made Eberron separate from the Great Wheel and edited Forgotten Realms so its planes -- even though they're identical to Great Wheel planes -- are no longer arranged in a Great Wheel is so that different settings can do what they like *without* being shoehorned into one giant meta-cosmology.

Let people houserule their own meta-cosmologies, or try to fit Spelljammer or Planescape into that mold. I'm glad that Eberron doesn't present any canonical way to escape into Sigil or Ravenloft.
ArcTan
05-08-07, 01:57 AM Where exactly did he say this? The Cthulhu Mythos provides little evidence of any human afterlife at all. The closest to it is being absorbed into one of the Great Old Ones like Cthulhu, which is not born of any active malice or intent to judge humanity, but is, nonetheless, an excruciating maddening torture akin to a worse Hell than any human could imagine.

[quote]The fact Eberron opposes the idea of powerful NPCs comming to save the day, combined with the lack of angels from eberron's history makes me think that eberron's more celestial denizens want little to do with the prime. They probably just think of most humanoids as moderatley harmless fiends.

*shrug* I think it's more complicated than that. Draconic Prophecy and all.

Now I'm not trying to say the Eberron is ripping off HPL, I'm just saying that HPL is a great resource for extraplanar encounters in Eberron.

How much of the Cthulhu Mythos have you actually read? What do you consider being a "resource"?

The Cthulhu Mythos may *feel* like Eberron sometimes. But that's it. It's just tone and feel. The actual landscape of the Cthulhu Mythos and what goes on there is very little like Eberron, and moreover is very difficult to translate into a coherent cosmology -- Lovecraft thought of the alternate universe he was creating as very loose in canon, a "mythos" more than a "continuity". It's later writers like August Derleth who built up the idea of a coherent mythos from it.

The Dreamland, for instance, which *might* be a source you could use for *tone* for Dal Quor even though the actual landscape is totally different, isn't even really in continuity with the Cthulhu Mythos with the Necronomicon and Great Cthulhu and Yog-Sothoth and all that. It was retconned into being so by later writers. And the mythos of the Outer Gods and Yog-Sothoth and Shub-Niggurath and Nyarlathotep and all those dudes frequently contradicts and steps all over itself, and *never* gives you a very clear idea of what the universe out there is actually shaped like. (Is Azathoth supposed to be Yog-Sothoth? Does he "rule" Yog-Sothoth? Are they related in some way? Who can really tell?)

I mean, honestly, the best thing you could mine the Cthulhu Mythos for would be monsters -- Shoggoths, the Great Race of Yith, the Elder Things, they all make great things to discover in Xoriat.

However, there's not much in the way of an actual cosmology at all in the Cthulhu Mythos, not really, and certainly nothing matches *directly* onto Eberron in the way you say. (Eberron contains no analogue of the relationship between Azathoth and Shub-Niggurath, no history that involves a race like the Elder Things, etc.)

Just because you can yoink a certain tone and quality of prose from Lovecraft doesn't mean that Eberron "basically is" Lovecraft. There are plenty of other pulp and horror writers that wrote in a similar tone, after all.
Rerecros
05-08-07, 02:28 AM :rofl: don't have an aneurism there.
I can't believe someone is trying to argue with me about subjective tones.

everbody else, read HPL, it helps.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jonasty 04-27-07, 01:39 PM	I don't know if this has been posted already or if anyone has heard anything but I would like to request/inquire/toss out there, about a book specifically detailing the various Planes of Eberron. I am a big fan of plane hopping when PCs reach a certain level and the ECS only has minimal info about the cosmology of Eberron. I've seen the list of books for the rest of the year and am psyched for Forge of War and Dragons of Eberron and just wanted to toss this idea out there and find out about it. One thing that really got me stoked for this was reading Keith Baker's Eberron trilogy of novels. Not to spoil them but they give a really amazing description of the fey plane (Thelanis if I'm remembering the right name). Its so unbelievable and well thought out and I immediately wanted to send my players there. :D But yeah, any thoughts or knowledge on this?
Euangelion 04-27-07, 03:50 PM	IMHO, an Eberron Planar Handbook is one of three essential sourcebooks yet to be written (a book(s) on the "other" nations of Khorvaire, and one on Khyber being the other two) for Eberron. The planes of Eberron are for the most part so different than standard D&D cosmology that most of the generic planar material is of little value to an Eberron campaign without serious modifications. I feel your pain. Here's hoping for 2008 (and Keith being involved directly with the project itself.)
Rerecros 04-27-07, 06:34 PM	need tips on Planar Shenanigans in Eberron? just read up on the collective works of H.P.Lovecraft. Eberron's planarology is heavily based on his works.
yrogerg 04-27-07, 07:51 PM	The planes of Eberron are for the most part so different than standard D&D cosmology that most of the generic planar material is of little value to an Eberron campaign without serious modifications. FWIW, Manual of the Planes is still somewhat useful, since Dal Quor, Xoriat, Risia, Thelanis, and Lamannia are all in there as variant planes, while Dolurrh, Krythi, Daanvi, Irian, and Mabar are only slightly modifed from the appropriate Wheel Planes. Fernia, Shavarath, and Syrannia require more work, but you can use the smatterings of multiple Wheel planes they draw from for inspiration, all the same. That said, the resulting flavor and information is extremely general (even for the variant planes), and the devil, is, after all, in the details.
ArcTan 04-27-07, 11:24 PM	need tips on Planar Shenanigans in Eberron? just read up on the collective works of H.P.Lovecraft. Eberron's planarology is heavily based on his works. No, not really. Lovecraft's view of Outer Space and the Great Old Ones and so forth is kind of like Xoriat. Lovecraft's view of the Dreamlands is kind of like Dal Quor. Neither one is an exact match even in broad strokes, though (the daelkyr are somewhat different from any Lovecraft race I can think of; the Dreamlands, though sinister, have nothing like il-Lashtavar or the quori). So no, it's not really a good source except for general tone.
Rerecros 04-28-07, 06:48 PM	I know they didn't directly use any thing from lovecraft, but they did stay true to his general themes. Much of his stories revolved around extaplanar incousions, which is covered under possessions and coterminous periods. And his treatment of humanity as a temporary insignifigance and the alien superiority of outsiders, which goes with human souls rotting in Dolugh, as opposed to the contest for mortal souls that goes on in the great wheel. And there is the ancient undefeatable manace that is Kyber that draws in cults of mad worshippers. And Mabar seems to be drawn from a colour out of space.
ArcTan 04-28-07, 07:43 PM	Mabar's a lot more like the Negative Energy Plane from Core D&D than the Colour Out of Space. And, really, Eberron's cosmology supports a Lovecraft-like view of the insignificance of humanity but can go the other way, too. The actions of the quori actually support the idea that humanity is very important to them, at least en masse. And the existence of a plane like Syrania throws a wrench into the whole "evil, uncaring universe" schtick.
sciborg2 05-04-07, 12:48 PM	And, really, Eberron's cosmology supports a Lovecraft-like view of the insignificance of humanity but can go the other way, too. Heh, never thought of it that way. Good point!
Wizardman 05-05-07, 06:57 PM	And, really, Eberron's cosmology supports a Lovecraft-like view of the insignificance of humanity but can go the other way, too. The actions of the quori actually support the idea that humanity is very important to them, at least en masse. Hasn't Hellcow implied that there's a somewhat symbiotic relationship between the Outer Planes and the Prime Material? There's the example of Dal Quor, and there also has to be a reason for the daelkyr to invade Eberron (it doesn't have to make any sense to us, but there has to be a reason). Dolurrh is another one. It's even more connected to Eberron than Dal Quor; most mortals visit Dal Quor every night, but almost all mortals make a trip to Dolurrh-- and even those very few mortals that do return eventually go permanently.
lrellok 05-05-07, 07:20 PM	I think the need for a revival of Spell Jammer is glaringly apparent. At the very least, and explenation of how the assorted cosmologies interact would be vastly appreciated by myself, if no one else. Personaly, i would like to see a structure using the "far realms" as deep space, and the prime matereal planes as planets, and their associated planar realms as solar systems of sorts. This would allow settings like Forgotten realms and Grey hawk to be in the same solar system (lets call it the Sigil system), while Eberon is in a diferant solar system, or possibly a seperate gallexy.
Rerecros 05-07-07, 03:40 AM	The actions of the quori actually support the idea that humanity is very important to them, at least en masse. And that puts the value of humanoids as a natural resource, to be used and discarded when necessary. and there also has to be a reason for the daelkyr to invade Eberron yes, but their activities put humanoids at a very low priorty, they spent much of their time trying to wipe them off the face of eberron. Dolurrh is another one. It's even more connected to Eberron than Dal Quor; most mortals visit Dal Quor every night, but almost all mortals make a trip to Dolurrh-- and even those very few mortals that do return eventually go permanently. I'm not sure how this is supposed to disagree with me. HPL's works did include undead (the outsider being a personal favorite) HPL depicted the afterlife not bing infinitely better (heaven) or infinitely worse (hell) than life, it just is. And the existence of a plane like Syrania throws a wrench into the whole "evil, uncaring universe" schtick. The fact Eberron opposes the idea of powerful NPCs comming to save the day, combined with the lack of angels from eberron's history makes me think that eberron's more celestial denizens want little to do with the prime. They probably just think of most humanoids as moderatley harmless fiends. Now I'm not trying to say the Eberron is ripping off HPL, I'm just saying that HPL is a great resource for extraplanar encounters in Eberron.
ArcTan 05-08-07, 01:49 AM	I think the need for a revival of Spell Jammer is glaringly apparent. At the very least, and explenation of how the assorted cosmologies interact would be vastly appreciated by myself, if no one else. Personaly, i would like to see a structure using the "far realms" as deep space, and the prime matereal planes as planets, and their associated planar realms as solar systems of sorts. This would allow settings like Forgotten realms and Grey hawk to be in the same solar system (lets call it the Sigil system), while Eberon is in a diferant solar system, or possibly a seperate gallexy. I would absolutely not want this. The whole reason they made Eberron separate from the Great Wheel and edited Forgotten Realms so its planes -- even though they're identical to Great Wheel planes -- are no longer arranged in a Great Wheel is so that different settings can do what they like without being shoehorned into one giant meta-cosmology. Let people houserule their own meta-cosmologies, or try to fit Spelljammer or Planescape into that mold. I'm glad that Eberron doesn't present any canonical way to escape into Sigil or Ravenloft.
ArcTan 05-08-07, 01:57 AM	Where exactly did he say this? The Cthulhu Mythos provides little evidence of any human afterlife at all. The closest to it is being absorbed into one of the Great Old Ones like Cthulhu, which is not born of any active malice or intent to judge humanity, but is, nonetheless, an excruciating maddening torture akin to a worse Hell than any human could imagine. [quote]The fact Eberron opposes the idea of powerful NPCs comming to save the day, combined with the lack of angels from eberron's history makes me think that eberron's more celestial denizens want little to do with the prime. They probably just think of most humanoids as moderatley harmless fiends. shrug I think it's more complicated than that. Draconic Prophecy and all. Now I'm not trying to say the Eberron is ripping off HPL, I'm just saying that HPL is a great resource for extraplanar encounters in Eberron. How much of the Cthulhu Mythos have you actually read? What do you consider being a "resource"? The Cthulhu Mythos may feel like Eberron sometimes. But that's it. It's just tone and feel. The actual landscape of the Cthulhu Mythos and what goes on there is very little like Eberron, and moreover is very difficult to translate into a coherent cosmology -- Lovecraft thought of the alternate universe he was creating as very loose in canon, a "mythos" more than a "continuity". It's later writers like August Derleth who built up the idea of a coherent mythos from it. The Dreamland, for instance, which might be a source you could use for tone for Dal Quor even though the actual landscape is totally different, isn't even really in continuity with the Cthulhu Mythos with the Necronomicon and Great Cthulhu and Yog-Sothoth and all that. It was retconned into being so by later writers. And the mythos of the Outer Gods and Yog-Sothoth and Shub-Niggurath and Nyarlathotep and all those dudes frequently contradicts and steps all over itself, and never gives you a very clear idea of what the universe out there is actually shaped like. (Is Azathoth supposed to be Yog-Sothoth? Does he "rule" Yog-Sothoth? Are they related in some way? Who can really tell?) I mean, honestly, the best thing you could mine the Cthulhu Mythos for would be monsters -- Shoggoths, the Great Race of Yith, the Elder Things, they all make great things to discover in Xoriat. However, there's not much in the way of an actual cosmology at all in the Cthulhu Mythos, not really, and certainly nothing matches directly onto Eberron in the way you say. (Eberron contains no analogue of the relationship between Azathoth and Shub-Niggurath, no history that involves a race like the Elder Things, etc.) Just because you can yoink a certain tone and quality of prose from Lovecraft doesn't mean that Eberron "basically is" Lovecraft. There are plenty of other pulp and horror writers that wrote in a similar tone, after all.
Rerecros 05-08-07, 02:28 AM	:rofl: don't have an aneurism there. I can't believe someone is trying to argue with me about subjective tones. everbody else, read HPL, it helps.