Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bykov1 08-03-07, 07:53 AM	Did a quick search and was unable to find anything on this. The Galifarian calendar and the Qabalrin Wheel differ in that the latter has 1 more month. Does this mean there are also 28 more days in the Qabalrin year? or are the months shortened? Based on what I inferred from Faiths of Eberron, Crya is (was) an additional 28 day month. In the case that the Qabalrin Wheel year is 28 days longer, does this mean that the seasons are all wacky because the Galifarian calendar whacked out 28 days? This basically comes down to "Does an Eberron solar year have 336 or 364 days?" Thank You. Bykov.
Syltorian 08-03-07, 05:44 PM	I'd say that the Qabalrin Wheel is indeed 28 days longer than the Galifarian Calendar, but I'd say that this causes confusion only in as far as time-keeping and changing over from one calendar in the next counts. The main reason (apart from the fact that it's simpler) is that there is no need for the sun to influence the seasons. It does in our world, but then, Eberron's moons in our world would create havoc with the tides, and we do not have the planes. We don't know whether Eberron circles around the sun. It could be geocentric. If it does, we do not know whether it does so in a circle or an ellipse, or whether it has a tilted axis. All we do know is that it is a globe. The seasons might instead depend on how far Lamannia, and perhaps Fernia and Risia happen to be away in the cosmology, rather than where the sun is. Thus it is always the same season, no matter on which hemisphere you are. Lamannia comes coterminous in Spring and is remote in Autumn, for a week each, and it is noted in the ECS that this effects plant and animal life. I'd be inclined to say that these effects don't just appear from one week to the next, but might slowly appear, creating the seasons. As for Fernia and Risia, they are on longer cycles, but still come coterminous in Summer and Winter respectively, so I am not sure how they would influence those seasons in years when they are neither coterminous nor remote, but perhaps they do grow in power over those months, even when not quite touching the world. Nothing official, but it's what I would do, unless you enjoy the confusion caused by real-world-equivalent calendars going out of date and having to be re-adjusted periodically.
bykov1 08-04-07, 09:05 AM	Nothing official, but it's what I would do, unless you enjoy the confusion caused by real-world-equivalent calendars going out of date and having to be re-adjusted periodically. I enjoy not having blatant "WTF?!?" moments. A modicum of effort by the designers/editors would allow the continuation of the suspension of disbelief. In my campaign, I believe I will pull an inverse ceaser in regards to the Qabalrin-Galifarian shift. When Julius & Augustus decided they wanted to have months named after them IRL, days were pulled from the original 10 months. *sigh* Bykov.
Syltorian 08-04-07, 01:51 PM	In my campaign, I believe I will pull an inverse ceaser in regards to the Qabalrin-Galifarian shift. When Julius & Augustus decided they wanted to have months named after them IRL, days were pulled from the original 10 months. Actually, that happened much earlier - 700 years before Caesar came up with the solar calendar to replace the lunar one. But the latter already had 12 months; those we know as well as Quintilis (July) and Sextilis (August), roughly alternating at 29 and 31 days (for 355 days/year). From Caesar onwards, those months got 30 days, except of course February; but no new months were created. You are thinking of King Numa's change, when January and February were created. (For the historical pre-Julian Calendar, see this epigraphical drawing: (http://webexhibits.org/calendars/i/romanCal/fasti4b.gif). Historical nitpicking aside, redistributing the days is probably the best solution. Given that the months are named after the moon that is 'strongest' (that's not random), it seems more logical to say that the moons each obtained a more or less equal share of power when the influence of Crya vanished, rather than that Zarantyr immediately rises after Vult all of a sudden. However, I don't see it as a "blatant WTF moment"; we knew all along that the Thirteenth Moon vanished, and that Eberron's calendar is lunar; it was nothing new for FoE to say that pre-Quori Cataclysm cultures took Crya into account. It was only a matter of time for FoE to state it explicitly. Goes to show how devastating the Cataclysm actually was, since it changed so much more than throwing Dal Quor off orbit and having one less light in the sky. Also, the Qabalrin Wheel does not need to be accurate. It could be wildly off regarding seasons and all else... it is, after all, including a moon that does not exist anymore. It could simply be outdated, used more out of tradition and nostalgia than any concern for harvest or keeping in touch with the Galifarian Calendar; it seems to be an exclusively religious calendar, and those sometimes do not match with the rest of the world. The Orthodox Church calendar, for instance, is slightly different from the Gregorian calendar.
bykov1 08-04-07, 04:05 PM	...Historical nitpicking aside, ... Actually, I appreciate the historical nitpicking. I learned something new today. :D Bykov.
Phaseroth 08-07-07, 02:43 PM	I can't remember exactly where, but it's specifically stated that Eberron's year used to be 13 months long, and that the 13th month "disappeared" at or around the same time the giants of Xen'drik destroyed the 13th moon. Eberron's year was indeed 28 days longer before then.
bykov1 08-08-07, 07:58 AM	I can't remember exactly where, but it's specifically stated that Eberron's year used to be 13 months long, and that the 13th month "disappeared" at or around the same time the giants of Xen'drik destroyed the 13th moon. Eberron's year was indeed 28 days longer before then. So did the planet move towards the sun and accelerate in it orbit to compensate? How about the fact the Qabalrin Wheel and the Galifarian calendar still both progress at the same pace (check the math in Faiths), considering that it still accounts in the 13th month in all its glory? This is not a slam at you Phaseroth....I have just reached a boiling point in dealing with the glaring incongruities perpetrated by an apparent lack of effort. *sigh* Bykov.
Phaseroth 08-08-07, 10:27 AM	A wizard did it.
Phaseroth 08-08-07, 07:31 PM	Sorry about my smart-aleck answer - I was getting ready to leave for work when I posted and didn't have time to post any more than that ;) Could you provide a book/page# for this Qabalrin Wheel? FoE is yet another book with an order form where the index ought to be (do people actually use those forms to order stuff?), and I don't seem to be able to find what you're talking about :)
eridalafar 08-10-07, 03:48 PM	So did the planet move towards the sun and accelerate in it orbit to compensate? How about the fact the Qabalrin Wheel and the Galifarian calendar still both progress at the same pace (check the math in Faiths), considering that it still accounts in the 13th month in all its glory? Or maybe that the rotation of the planet on it-self was slowed, so now the days are longuer. Aby place that say what is the exact duration of a day today and then? Eridalafar
bykov1 08-11-07, 09:43 AM	Sorry about my smart-aleck answer - I was getting ready to leave for work when I posted and didn't have time to post any more than that ;) Could you provide a book/page# for this Qabalrin Wheel? FoE is yet another book with an order form where the index ought to be (do people actually use those forms to order stuff?), and I don't seem to be able to find what you're talking about :) Pages 79 & 80 of FoE. Page 79 goes over some of the major Blood of Vol Rites, including one on the 13th of Crya. Page 80 talks about the calendar. Bykov.
bykov1 08-11-07, 09:57 AM	Or maybe that the rotation of the planet on it-self was slowed, so now the days are longuer. Aby place that say what is the exact duration of a day today and then? Eridalafar That is an awesome thought process. :D The Qabalrin Wheel still does have 364 days if you interpret strictly the "one extra month". I think I will shorten all the months in the Qabalrin Wheel. Some months will have 25 days, others will have 26. Either I think is an adequate fix to this dichotomy. As to a canon length of day, the only I have found is the 24 hours of a day listed in the ECS. That would make the Qabalrin days 22 hours, 9 minutes and 14 seconds long, give or take a few decimal places. Bykov.
Phaseroth 08-11-07, 03:36 PM	Or maybe that the rotation of the planet on it-self was slowed, so now the days are longuer. If anything, I would think losing a moon would cause the days to get shorter, due to one less nearby celestial object exerting gravitational drag on Eberron's rotation.
eridalafar 08-11-07, 03:47 PM	If anything, I would think losing a moon would cause the days to get shorter, due to one less nearby celestial object exerting gravitational drag on Eberron's rotation. All depend of the original speed of the of the moon around Eberron and it mass, what can drag can also accelerate. Eridalafar
bykov1 08-12-07, 12:01 AM	If anything, I would think losing a moon would cause the days to get shorter, due to one less nearby celestial object exerting gravitational drag on Eberron's rotation. I don't think they were thinking of celestial drag when they created the moons, unless they meant to have a continual 4 km tall tsunami circumnavigating the globe at all times. (Zarantyr in Keith Baker's article) Nor do I think the authors of FoE were thinking when they popped an extra 28 day (or subtracted it if you think chronologically) month into a calendar. Bykov.
Phaseroth 08-12-07, 03:57 AM	Nor do I think the authors of FoE were thinking when they popped an extra 28 day (or subtracted it if you think chronologically) month into a calendar. Which brings us back to "a wizard did it". Or wizards, as the case may be. As suffused with magic as Eberron is, who's to say that 28 days didn't simply vanish when the giants destroyed that moon and severed the connection between Eberron and Dal Quor? That happened 40,000 years before the Galifaran calendar — a calendar created by humans — was established. It's entirely possible that humans didn't even exist on Eberron at that point in history. We know that elves did, but I've seen nothing regarding human history during that time (though I've only just started reading Secrets of Sarlona, which may provide that information). It's not uncommon in fantasy settings for various races to be created at different times, and traditionally, elves usually appear long before humans, going all the way back to The Lord of the Rings. I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that humans didn't appear on Eberron until after the Cataclysm, or if they were around before that, they may have still been very primitive. By the time they were advanced enough to develop their own calendar, there were only twelve moons and the year was 336 days long. They made their calendar that way because they had never known any differently. Meanwhile, the elves continued to use the same calendar they'd always used. As somebody else mentioned, Eberron's seasons are likely controlled by the orbits of the planes rather than the planet's course around the sun. The sudden disruption of Dal Quor's orbit (for all intents and purposes it was knocked so far "remote" that it could no longer affect anything) forced all the other planes to reorganize themselves — a process that may have taken thousands of years. The same thing would have happened with the moons: removing one moon's gravitational field would result in the other moons' orbits changing gradually, not all at once. Even to the long-lived elves, the change wouldn't be immediately noticeable. It could be a matter of losing a day every thousand years, and many thousands of years before enough days had been lost that the elves started to notice that the seasons were no longer changing when expected. So we know that the giants severed Eberron's ties with Dal Quor 40,000 years before the Galifaran calendar was established. Assuming Eberron lost a day every 1,000 years for the next 28,000 years, that brings us up to 12,000 years before Galifar. Humans existed only on Sarlona at that time, if they even existed at all yet. Meanwhile, the elves had probably figured out what was happening by that time and had created a new calendar, but continued to use their old calendar, at least for the purpose of observing holidays and such. They had no way of knowing if the planes had settled into equilibrium or if the "adjustments" were going to continue for the next few thousand years. Hence, the Qabalrin Wheel/Calendar was still being used, at least ceremonially, by the time of Vol. Anyway, that's my take on it, and it's only opinion.
bykov1 08-13-07, 03:35 PM	Which brings us back to "a wizard did it". Or wizards, as the case may be. It is just a more creative way of the standard "It's Magic" scapegoat. For me, this usually leads to expulsion of the offending individual out the nearest airlock. But I digress... As suffused with magic as Eberron is, who's to say that 28 days didn't simply vanish when the giants destroyed that moon and severed the connection between Eberron and Dal Quor? That happened 40,000 years before the Galifaran calendar — a calendar created by humans — was established. It's entirely possible that humans didn't even exist on Eberron at that point in history. We know that elves did, but I've seen nothing regarding human history during that time (though I've only just started reading Secrets of Sarlona, which may provide that information). It's not uncommon in fantasy settings for various races to be created at different times, and traditionally, elves usually appear long before humans, going all the way back to The Lord of the Rings. I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that humans didn't appear on Eberron until after the Cataclysm, or if they were around before that, they may have still been very primitive. By the time they were advanced enough to develop their own calendar, there were only twelve moons and the year was 336 days long. They made their calendar that way because they had never known any differently. Meanwhile, the elves continued to use the same calendar they'd always used. As somebody else mentioned, Eberron's seasons are likely controlled by the orbits of the planes rather than the planet's course around the sun. The sudden disruption of Dal Quor's orbit (for all intents and purposes it was knocked so far "remote" that it could no longer affect anything) forced all the other planes to reorganize themselves — a process that may have taken thousands of years. The same thing would have happened with the moons: removing one moon's gravitational field would result in the other moons' orbits changing gradually, not all at once. Even to the long-lived elves, the change wouldn't be immediately noticeable. It could be a matter of losing a day every thousand years, and many thousands of years before enough days had been lost that the elves started to notice that the seasons were no longer changing when expected. So we know that the giants severed Eberron's ties with Dal Quor 40,000 years before the Galifaran calendar was established. Assuming Eberron lost a day every 1,000 years for the next 28,000 years, that brings us up to 12,000 years before Galifar. Humans existed only on Sarlona at that time, if they even existed at all yet. Meanwhile, the elves had probably figured out what was happening by that time and had created a new calendar, but continued to use their old calendar, at least for the purpose of observing holidays and such. They had no way of knowing if the planes had settled into equilibrium or if the "adjustments" were going to continue for the next few thousand years. Hence, the Qabalrin Wheel/Calendar was still being used, at least ceremonially, by the time of Vol. Anyway, that's my take on it, and it's only opinion. Honestly, I like it. This was well thought out reasoning that would explain everything. However, the difference between the Qabalrin Wheel and the Galifar Calendar is approx. 1,300 years, IIRC. Of course, this could be dismissed relatively easily if one were to say the Qabalrin Wheel was held on to despite the obvious seasonal shifts occuring around them....but of course, I think you said that. (just reread) I definitely think I will gaffle this. *swipe* Nice job, I like it. Bykov.
Phaseroth 08-14-07, 12:52 AM	Honestly, I like it. This was well thought out reasoning that would explain everything. However, the difference between the Qabalrin Wheel and the Galifar Calendar is approx. 1,300 years, IIRC. Glad you like it. I was just using the number 1,000 for illustration purposes, since I didn't feel like doing the math ;)
gaerfindel 08-14-07, 10:28 AM	Recall also, that many RW lunar calendars have nothing whatsoever to do with the solar or tropical (i.e. seasonal) year. Furthermore, the art portraying Xen'drik ruins suggest a Mesoamerican style. The Maya use a calendar composed of interlocking cycles called the "long count" which has absolutely nothing to do with the seasons and everything to do with the cycles of Venus, Jupiter, and metaphysics. (A good example of this is the King's Age cycle from Dark Sun). It's possible that the cycles of the moons makes more sense in the Qalabrin calendars, despite the "missing days" of the Galifaran count.
OctaviusIII 08-22-07, 04:12 AM	As described above, the Qalabrin calendar may just have 13 months for the heck of it. The Islamic calendar has fewer days than our calendar, causing the holy days to keep moving around by our reckoning. In Eberron, that would mean that the 13th month would, the first year, match up with the Zarantyr, the second year it would match with Olarune, the third Therendor, and so on.
Alex_ 08-22-07, 06:39 PM	As described above, the Qalabrin calendar may just have 13 months for the heck of it. The Islamic calendar has fewer days than our calendar, causing the holy days to keep moving around by our reckoning. In Eberron, that would mean that the 13th month would, the first year, match up with the Zarantyr, the second year it would match with Olarune, the third Therendor, and so on. That's what I thinking. Older (or even contemporary) calendars doesn't have to correspond to the 4 seasons every year, similar patterns more familiar calendars to be of use. They don't even have to be based on solar/lunar patterns, and if they are, it doesn't mean they have to be based on ones relevant to the current state of the planet as it relates to celestial bodies. One can easily use the popularized 24 hour day/12 month/365ish days a year Earth calendar on any other planet, even if they all have different rates of rotation and orbit. The seasons, days, nights, etc may not correspond, but the Earth calendar is still no less able at being used as a reference for when recorded events occurred, or when planned events will.
bykov1 08-23-07, 12:06 PM	These are aspects I didn't consider. However, I do know in the ECS, that the months do correlate with the seasons. From that, I would still give Eberron a 336 day solar year. I do see though, from the examples you have cited, that some calendars do not necessarily line up with the solar year. The only issue I have would be the correlation from Faiths of Eberron, in which they cite a year for year progression between the Qalibaran Wheel & the Galifarian Calendar. Two calendars with an cited 1 month (28 day) difference. With that, I still like idea forwarded above to explain that. Bykov.