Question on circumstances in which a cleric could lose power due to wavering faith: [Archive] - Wizards Community

Question on circumstances in which a cleric could lose power due to wavering faith: [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JulesCARV
03-06-08, 02:23 AM Let's say a cleric or adept (hereafter cleric) of the Sovereign Host is abducted by criminals or the like. The cleric is a believer in truth, justice, and the Galifarian way. The criminals want to use the cleric's power, attempting to coerce the cleric into doing things like casting augury for them to see whether what they're going to do is a good idea, healing their wounds, mending/making whole their banged up equipment, etc. Let's suppose they're powerful enough to keep the cleric in line even while allowing the cleric the necessary stuff to cast spells (divine focus, etc).

The cleric is still faithful to the Sovereigns, and does not think that casting spells to help his criminal captors would be what the Sovereigns want. He doesn't really want to help them, but if the captors are inventive enough with castor oil, wet towels, pliers, etc, they could probably persuade him to at least make an earnest effort.

The question is, should he be able to cast spells in such circumstances? Or should those powers be removed until he is in circumstances in which he believes his powers would be being used in accord with the will of the Sovereigns?

Or does is vary by cleric, with some clerics being able to rationalize that the Sovereigns will give them spells even if they're used for ends they wouldn't want, if it means that their servant lives to serve them another day, while other clerics might just think that the Sovereigns wouldn't want them to cast such spells, so they find that, in spite of whatever efforts they make, they're unable to prepare their spells, because they feel like the Sovereigns are denying them?

What if the cleric believes that the Sovereigns would never go along with helping these criminals out, and thus finds himself unable to prepare spells, but he's really desperate and his captors (with their pliers) don't believe his claims about being unable to prepare spells, so, as a one off, he appeals to the Dark Six for help -- while still being loyal to the Sovereigns and regretting it, and not having any overall loyalty to the Dark Six -- on the basis that the Dark Six would find him a suitable vessel for aiding the evil of his captors. (He hopes that later the Sovereigns will forgive him for such a transgression.) He doesn't personally have any loyalty to the Dark Six, although he does think that they're real and that they do grant spells to other clerics, but he thinks that it just might work, because although the Dark Six probably don't approve of him, they probably do like what he'd be doing if he helped out a criminal gang. Then might it work?

I'm just curious as to under what circumstances a cleric might no longer be able to cast spells due to loss of faith.
Syltorian
03-06-08, 07:24 AM The question is, should he be able to cast spells in such circumstances? Or should those powers be removed until he is in circumstances in which he believes his powers would be being used in accord with the will of the Sovereigns?

The latter, I would say. Pliers and red-hot bars can convince people to do much, but not actually believe in what they are doing (except as noted below). The cleric knows he is not working for the Sovereigns here, and while he desperately wants to help the bandits (if only to make them stop hurt him), that will not make him able to cast spells any more than it would make a random commoner suddenly cast spells under torture. The necessary belief simply isn't there.

Unless - and this is the exception noted above - Stockholm Syndrome sets in. If the cleric comes to realise (rightly or wrongly; most likely wrongly in this case) that the bandits are not that bad after all, and have a good cause, that they have been abused by society and now simply want to survive, etc... now he has a rationale he can accept, and he can believe that the Sovereigns would want him to help these people. He could become quite fanatic about his need to help them with his spells and his belief.

Or does is vary by cleric, with some clerics being able to rationalize that the Sovereigns will give them spells even if they're used for ends they wouldn't want, if it means that their servant lives to serve them another day, while other clerics might just think that the Sovereigns wouldn't want them to cast such spells, so they find that, in spite of whatever efforts they make, they're unable to prepare their spells, because they feel like the Sovereigns are denying them?

The first seems to be self-delusion. I could see this work in various ways, though, beyond merely believing that the Sovereigns would want him (the cleric) to live; few clerics will believe themselves to be that important compared to his gods. First, maybe the spells of the Sovereigns can show the bandits the way to good and redemption. Every healing cast shows them the love of Boldrei. Second, maybe the Sovereigns have placed him here for a reason - the bandits will do something good, whether or not they know it, perhaps by regularly attacking shipments that the Emerald Claw needs as funding. Perhaps they are steering towards a goal that no mortal can see, and have allowed the cleric to be captured to ensure this comes to pass. If he can believe these and similar reasons, he can cast spells.

What if the cleric believes that the Sovereigns would never go along with helping these criminals out, and thus finds himself unable to prepare spells, but he's really desperate and his captors (with their pliers) don't believe his claims about being unable to prepare spells, so, as a one off, he appeals to the Dark Six for help -- while still being loyal to the Sovereigns and regretting it, and not having any overall loyalty to the Dark Six -- on the basis that the Dark Six would find him a suitable vessel for aiding the evil of his captors.

He does not have a strong belief in what the Dark Six stand for, and the Dark Six do not grant spells themselves. The Cleric cannot cast spells by simply appealing to the Mockery, any more than a sailor caught in a storm at sea suddenly casts control winds by appealing to the Devourer in utter despair, even if he promises the god his first child. The Cleric, deep down, despises the Dark Six and all they stand for. Of course he believes they exist, but he does not have the deep loyalty required to power divine spells. His subconscious will not agree with this rationalisation.

So, overall, that cleric is in trouble, but he is a martyr. He cannot cast spells for his captors, and will have to suffer for it. If he does not go all the way and defies the tortures, he may tell himself that he is weak, and come to doubt his own strength of faith; by that point, he cannot cast spells for anyone. It's a psychological horror he may not even get out of should he be rescued. At that point, hatred and other bad feelings could turn him into a Dark Six fanatic, paying back in the same currency what has been done to him. But he will not be a worshipper of the Host any more.
JulesCARV
03-08-08, 03:48 PM Thanks for the reply, Syltorian. That's mostly what I was thinking as well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 03-06-08, 02:23 AM	Let's say a cleric or adept (hereafter cleric) of the Sovereign Host is abducted by criminals or the like. The cleric is a believer in truth, justice, and the Galifarian way. The criminals want to use the cleric's power, attempting to coerce the cleric into doing things like casting augury for them to see whether what they're going to do is a good idea, healing their wounds, mending/making whole their banged up equipment, etc. Let's suppose they're powerful enough to keep the cleric in line even while allowing the cleric the necessary stuff to cast spells (divine focus, etc). The cleric is still faithful to the Sovereigns, and does not think that casting spells to help his criminal captors would be what the Sovereigns want. He doesn't really want to help them, but if the captors are inventive enough with castor oil, wet towels, pliers, etc, they could probably persuade him to at least make an earnest effort. The question is, should he be able to cast spells in such circumstances? Or should those powers be removed until he is in circumstances in which he believes his powers would be being used in accord with the will of the Sovereigns? Or does is vary by cleric, with some clerics being able to rationalize that the Sovereigns will give them spells even if they're used for ends they wouldn't want, if it means that their servant lives to serve them another day, while other clerics might just think that the Sovereigns wouldn't want them to cast such spells, so they find that, in spite of whatever efforts they make, they're unable to prepare their spells, because they feel like the Sovereigns are denying them? What if the cleric believes that the Sovereigns would never go along with helping these criminals out, and thus finds himself unable to prepare spells, but he's really desperate and his captors (with their pliers) don't believe his claims about being unable to prepare spells, so, as a one off, he appeals to the Dark Six for help -- while still being loyal to the Sovereigns and regretting it, and not having any overall loyalty to the Dark Six -- on the basis that the Dark Six would find him a suitable vessel for aiding the evil of his captors. (He hopes that later the Sovereigns will forgive him for such a transgression.) He doesn't personally have any loyalty to the Dark Six, although he does think that they're real and that they do grant spells to other clerics, but he thinks that it just might work, because although the Dark Six probably don't approve of him, they probably do like what he'd be doing if he helped out a criminal gang. Then might it work? I'm just curious as to under what circumstances a cleric might no longer be able to cast spells due to loss of faith.
Syltorian 03-06-08, 07:24 AM	The question is, should he be able to cast spells in such circumstances? Or should those powers be removed until he is in circumstances in which he believes his powers would be being used in accord with the will of the Sovereigns? The latter, I would say. Pliers and red-hot bars can convince people to do much, but not actually believe in what they are doing (except as noted below). The cleric knows he is not working for the Sovereigns here, and while he desperately wants to help the bandits (if only to make them stop hurt him), that will not make him able to cast spells any more than it would make a random commoner suddenly cast spells under torture. The necessary belief simply isn't there. Unless - and this is the exception noted above - Stockholm Syndrome sets in. If the cleric comes to realise (rightly or wrongly; most likely wrongly in this case) that the bandits are not that bad after all, and have a good cause, that they have been abused by society and now simply want to survive, etc... now he has a rationale he can accept, and he can believe that the Sovereigns would want him to help these people. He could become quite fanatic about his need to help them with his spells and his belief. Or does is vary by cleric, with some clerics being able to rationalize that the Sovereigns will give them spells even if they're used for ends they wouldn't want, if it means that their servant lives to serve them another day, while other clerics might just think that the Sovereigns wouldn't want them to cast such spells, so they find that, in spite of whatever efforts they make, they're unable to prepare their spells, because they feel like the Sovereigns are denying them? The first seems to be self-delusion. I could see this work in various ways, though, beyond merely believing that the Sovereigns would want him (the cleric) to live; few clerics will believe themselves to be that important compared to his gods. First, maybe the spells of the Sovereigns can show the bandits the way to good and redemption. Every healing cast shows them the love of Boldrei. Second, maybe the Sovereigns have placed him here for a reason - the bandits will do something good, whether or not they know it, perhaps by regularly attacking shipments that the Emerald Claw needs as funding. Perhaps they are steering towards a goal that no mortal can see, and have allowed the cleric to be captured to ensure this comes to pass. If he can believe these and similar reasons, he can cast spells. What if the cleric believes that the Sovereigns would never go along with helping these criminals out, and thus finds himself unable to prepare spells, but he's really desperate and his captors (with their pliers) don't believe his claims about being unable to prepare spells, so, as a one off, he appeals to the Dark Six for help -- while still being loyal to the Sovereigns and regretting it, and not having any overall loyalty to the Dark Six -- on the basis that the Dark Six would find him a suitable vessel for aiding the evil of his captors. He does not have a strong belief in what the Dark Six stand for, and the Dark Six do not grant spells themselves. The Cleric cannot cast spells by simply appealing to the Mockery, any more than a sailor caught in a storm at sea suddenly casts control winds by appealing to the Devourer in utter despair, even if he promises the god his first child. The Cleric, deep down, despises the Dark Six and all they stand for. Of course he believes they exist, but he does not have the deep loyalty required to power divine spells. His subconscious will not agree with this rationalisation. So, overall, that cleric is in trouble, but he is a martyr. He cannot cast spells for his captors, and will have to suffer for it. If he does not go all the way and defies the tortures, he may tell himself that he is weak, and come to doubt his own strength of faith; by that point, he cannot cast spells for anyone. It's a psychological horror he may not even get out of should he be rescued. At that point, hatred and other bad feelings could turn him into a Dark Six fanatic, paying back in the same currency what has been done to him. But he will not be a worshipper of the Host any more.
JulesCARV 03-08-08, 03:48 PM	Thanks for the reply, Syltorian. That's mostly what I was thinking as well.