Post/Author/DateTime	Post
krlsrrll 05-22-07, 05:35 AM	Hi all I know there is probably further source information on religion in Khorvaire (only have source book and Five Nations) but have a quick question I was hoping someone might be able to answer. I have recently started a mercenary based campaign in Droaam and one of the characters is a cleric of the Dark Six. his character concept though is as a 'chosen one' with the intention to eventually take a prestige class that allows for collation of 'faith points' based on acts he does for his gods. I was wondering though, what sort of direct influence the gods have in Eberron? In the main source book their influence is played down, to the extent that good clerics can cast evil spells and not lose powers, so if I choose to have the gods have a bit more influence is this against the flavour of Eberron or just another slant I can use? The alternative I was thinking off was that the gods themselves do not directly influence clerics but darker, other-worldly powers do as they do not have direct access to Eberron any more. Part of the characters background is that there was an intervention of types which has set him on this dark path so would like to develop this as I go along. Thanks in advance, unfortunately I cant afford 'Faiths of Eberron' so any general pointers would be greatly appreciated.
BrotherDog 05-22-07, 05:43 AM	From what I see, the only one of all 15 members of the Pantheon that participates directly in any way is the Traveler. Outside the pantheon, it seems the Silver Flame is more directly active as well. I hope that helps.
Wizardman 05-22-07, 07:45 AM	The gods of the Host and the Six don't act directly in Eberron. They may not even exist. Now, as to how the people think of them: they are a part of the world itself, all-seeing and all-knowing, and hold dominion over their portfolios. Ever act of creation involves Onatar, and every act of treachery involves the Mockery, and so on. As BrotherDog pointed out, the only god that has a lot of legends that concern involvement with mortals is the Traveler. However, just because the legends claim that the mysterious trickster was the Traveler doesn't mean that it is. It could be anything, or even a collection of anythings. I don't know if that is your idea of more "direct influence." If you're talking Grewhawk/FR style influence, then that is against the flavour of Eberron. That said, it's your game. I see nothing wrong with a prestige class that grants faith points every time you act in your god's name. However, considering that this character will worship the Six, you will have to be very subtle or else you'll become very imprisoned or very dead. As for an external intervention setting this character on his path, that is easy to do. Maybe an aspect of the Draconic Prophecy points (or seems to point) to your character, so either the dragons or the rakshasas might take steps to ensure that your character does what they want him to, and so lead him to worship the Six. Alternatively, perhaps planar followers of the Six are steering certain mortals to their worship. They saw potential in your character, and acted to convert him if they could. They were successful.
polt 05-22-07, 08:51 AM	The big point with religion in Eberron is that the gods may or may not exist. Like in the real world, there's relly no proof, and thereh as never been any proof, that the gods exist, that the gods has ever existed. There might not be any gods. Clerics doesn't gain powers from the gods, they gain powers from faith. If you want the gods to exist and have an active role in the world, you can do that, but if you read the Eberron books, nobody knows if the gods exist or not. Not the PCs, not the NPCs, not the DM, not the players. Unless the DM decides that they exist, or doesn't exist.
krlsrrll 05-22-07, 09:19 AM	After reading these posts I managed to sneak a quick peak at 'Faiths of Eberron' (and Players Guide too) and from what I've seen, and what people have said, I like the idea of leaving it vague. My feelings are by doing this you put more emphasis on the character having faith that they exists rather than distinct proof much like religion in the modern world. I'll discuss this with the player but cant see any reason why the prestige class with the 'faith points' can't be used. The character believes he is furthering the gods existence therefore he feels empowered, sounds fine to me :) Thanks alot in advance, yet again these boards prove to be easily the best and most useful I've ever posted too :D
Hellcow 05-22-07, 03:38 PM	The big point with religion in Eberron is that the gods may or may not exist. Exactly. There's nothing wrong with using a PrC that gives you faith points when you act in the name of your god. But Thor's never going to show up, shake your hand, and say "Good job, son." MAYBE it's Thor handing out faith points. Maybe it's your own internal conviction, the energy of the Dragon Above, or something else. The issue is that the character BELIEVES the power comes from the gods, and his powers reinforce his personal faith.
Splendide 05-24-07, 07:01 AM	Exactly. There's nothing wrong with using a PrC that gives you faith points when you act in the name of your god. But Thor's never going to show up, shake your hand, and say "Good job, son."Awwwww... :(
Just another user 05-25-07, 03:10 AM	The alternative I was thinking off was that the gods themselves do not directly influence clerics but darker, other-worldly powers do as they do not have direct access to Eberron any more. Part of the characters background is that there was an intervention of types which has set him on this dark path so would like to develop this as I go along. For this point, the bound raja in kyber are always a good option.
krlsrrll 05-25-07, 05:36 AM	For this point, the bound raja in kyber are always a good option. Ah, didn't know about this so will definitely look into them more. Luckily this is a 'fall back' game when the main campaign cant be run due to missing players etc. so I do get a lot of time between games to plan and research. Is there information about them in the main book or a supplement? I have a few books but not an extensive library as I rely on on-line resources a lot more.
BrotherDog 05-26-07, 03:01 AM	Dragon Magazine #337. It even has stats one named Sul Khatesh. ;;D
Edymnion 05-29-07, 07:04 PM	I liken religion in other settings to being more like government in the real world. You pick your country, obey the laws of that country, pay your taxes, and when you get in trouble from a natural disaster, you can reasonably expect your government to give you a hand. Same with "religion" in other settings. There's no real faith involved when you can literally go and shake your god's hand and ask whats up. In Eberron, its more like real life religion. Is your god out there? Maybe, maybe not, its not a question anyone can prove one way or the other. Either you have faith that (s)he exhists, or you don't, and it is that faith that grants the most devout incredible divine powers.
Nived 05-29-07, 09:09 PM	I have no problems with myths of direct sovereignly intervention, or modern people convinced that they saw and were helped by the avatar of a god. Maybe it was just someone who 'fit' the typical depiction of one of the gods... A man of faith sees what he believes is an intruder slipping into a back room, a young halfling woman. He rushes in just in time to see a log pop in an untended fireplace and a stray spark light the curtins on fire. He manages to put out the fire and save his home. No trace of any intruder is ever found. Everyone says how lucky he was to happen to be there when it happened. He walks away convinced that Olladra led him into the room just in time. Of course the rookie thief that almost got caught and went back out the room while he was putting out the flames just feels lucky to have gotten away. Or perhaps there are people the gods do talk to. Or perhaps they're just crazy. There are plenty of people in our world who believe God has spoken to them personally, that angels have come down from on high to save them from peril. I'm sure there are just as many people in Eberron with such claims. Maybe its just happenstance, maybe it's just a changling, maybe it is a Outsider who happens to follow the same faith. Or maybe... just maybe the Sovereigns do take an interest in the world, they're just not melodramatic about it like in the Realms or Dragonlance. That is up to the DM. My only suggestion would be if, in your Eberron game, the gods do exist... that whenever they actually interfer... there's never any actual proof of it. Like that Futurama episode where Bender meets 'god' "If you do something right no one will be sure you've done anything at all."
krlsrrll 06-04-07, 04:28 AM	Well I've now had a discussion with the player himself and made it clear the whole point about religion in Eberron is the faith he has not the actual evidence of their existence and after initial trepidation he has embraced it. His character now has a more clear path to show his faith to others and use that to help influence the poor and destitute using charisma and spells to influence them. He is devout in his own character rather than needing some form of affirmation from the gods and as this is the 1st cleric he has played its all rather refreshing for the other players who are used to seeing him play fighters or thieves :) Thanks again.
stone_dog 06-04-07, 10:31 PM	Awwwww... :( Don't worry about it. Just because Thor isn't going to come down and buy you a pint after your last magnificent feat of daring doesn't mean that celestial rewards are out of the question. Outsiders have faith as well, without anymore proof than we have. Solars and Guardinals and creatures of all stripes might notice the actions of your character and come down from On High to bestow gifts fitting such a hero in the name of the Gods. Handing over a hammer of thunderbolts with a "This hammer be thine by Thor's will!" and popping back out before any embarressing "Well, no I didn't actually SEE him... Hey, it is an ineffable mystery, okay? Just smack some damn Giants around will you?"
krlsrrll 06-15-07, 04:36 AM	As a development of this thread the PC who is the centre of this has 'claimed' a desolate house in the slums area of Vralkek in Droaam with the intention of having it as some form of temple to the dark six. I know there is reference to worship of the dark six in Droaam but how open and accepted is it? I don't have 'Faiths of Eberron' but from what I've read 2 or 3 of the aspects of the dark six are accepted but it's not the nations religion or anything that widespread.
Hellcow 06-15-07, 10:49 AM	I know there is reference to worship of the dark six in Droaam but how open and accepted is it? It's not the national religion of Droaam because Droaam has no single national culture. As seen in this dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20060905a), the Shadow is concsidered the patron deity of the medusas of Cazhaak Draal. On the other hand, you may find harpy flights who revere the Fury, wererats who make sacrifices to the Mockery, or an ogre mage who challenges the existence of the gods. The Daughters of Sora Kell have never indicated any sort of devotion or interest in any god. But neither do they seek to impose any sort of religious practice (or lack thereof) on their followers. If you decided to start a church to the Silver Flame, you'd probably have it torn apart by angry neighbors. With the Dark Six, some people will respect you, and others won't care. But there's not a lot of people who actively and violently oppose the Dark Six in Droaam. With that said, the creatures of Droaam have very different interpretations OF the Dark Six than the people of the Five Nations. They view the Shadow as a bold creative force, feared by the other gods as humans fear monsters. So if you're a human pushing human images of the Dark Six, then you might get torn apart or petrified (and then torn apart) by Droaamites who find your interpretations to be insulting.
maollelujah 06-15-07, 12:32 PM	With that said, the creatures of Droaam have very different interpretations OF the Dark Six than the people of the Five Nations. The problem with the worship of the Dark Six in Droaam is that their native gods have most likely been co-opted and labeled as one of the Dark Six by those of the 5N, and Natives don't consider them the Dark Six. If someone tells the Medusae that they are worshiping the Shadow, they would probably disagree because they worship Marzipan the Dark, not some human god named the Shadow. The Daughters of Sora Kell have never indicated any sort of devotion or interest in any god. But neither do they seek to impose any sort of religious practice (or lack thereof) on their followers. Everyone knows that the darkest secret of the Daughters of Sora Kell is that they are promoting the worship the Silver Flame amongst their legions of War Trolls because what has been seen of the future.
Hellcow 06-15-07, 01:24 PM	The problem with the worship of the Dark Six in Droaam is that their native gods have most likely been co-opted and labeled as one of the Dark Six by those of the 5N, and Natives don't consider them the Dark Six. If someone tells the Medusae that they are worshiping the Shadow, they would probably disagree because they worship Marzipan the Dark, not some human god named the Shadow... Yes and no. By anything that I write, there's more to Host and Six than the traditions of Pyrine. The people of Pyrine worship Aureon, Sovereign of Lore and Law. But the giants of Xen'drik worshipped Ouralon, Lord of Light and Law. The orcs worshiped Baalkan the Beastlord before they ever encountered humans who worshipped Balinor, yet both may depict the god as a stalking green dragon. The traditions of the medusas are quite different from those of humans. They view the Darkness as a creative force, a source of life and mystery. One of the greatest children of the Darkness turned on his father and sought to banish the darkness with light and treacherous magic; in so doing, he sought to replace the children of the Darkness with his own weak and flawed creations. So the Medusas will laugh at the story that Aureon came first and empowered the Shadow with his sacrifice; they'll tell you that the Darkness has always been the greater power, and that it was only misplaced love of its treacherous child that allowed the Lord of Light to shift the balance of power. So their view of the Shadow IS different from that of the Five Nations. But it's no SO different that they can't see the similarities (such as the common iconography of the shadow dragon). A priest of the Five Nations will say "Ha! You're following a corrupted myth of Aureon and the Shadow." But the medusa will just laugh. "The Darkness shaped my people before your feeble kind were born, priest. It is you who have twisted the myth of the Darkness and the treacherous Children of the Light. And if you think your path is the true one, look me in the eye and tell me again that your Aureon is stronger than the Shadow." The priests following the Pyrinean tradition are the most adamant about unifying all Sovereign archetypes under their particular framework. But enough similarities are there for anyone to draw the conclusions. It's not that the Sovereign priest says "You're worshipping the Shadow" and the medusa says "What are you talking about, I'm doing nothing of the sort." Instead, it says "No, you're worshipping the Children of the Light, and you've got a few of your stories backwards." Obviously there are many exceptions to this pattern. But if I ever say that a particular group of people worship a member of the Sovereigns or Six (as I did in the Droaam section of the ECS), I mean just that - they worship a god which, based on common iconography and myth, can be identified as being, for all intents and purposes, the same as one of the forces worshipped under the Pyrinean faith. They may have very different traditions - the giants say Karaak the final Guardian preserves souls while the Pyrineans say he torments them; the medusas say the Darkness is the benevolent creator while the Pyrineans say the Shadow is a malevolent corruptor; and so on. But the two are close enough that people on either side of the gap can say "You're worshipping my god, you've just got your facts wrong." The giants do depict Karaak as a dracolich, and even a Pyrinean theologist will admist that as the brother of Kol Korran, the original name of the Keeper was likely something following the formula "Kol K-"... such as, perhaps, "Kol Karrak". Meanwhile, you may find a sect of Xen'drik drow who worship a hunter deity called Huralla, the Hunter of Men. She takes the form of a female scarrow, and is represented by a spear with a bone handle. It's possible a Pyrinean theologist could say "Hunter deity... that's Balinor!" But she's female, not male. Her name doesn't sound anything like Balinor. The drow have never used a green dragon or the Octogram in their iconography. None of her myths are remotely similar to the common myths of Balinor (as compared to the Aureon-Shadow struggle, which while the balance is shifted, is a consistent myth between the Pyrinean creed and the medusas). So Huralla is a hunter deity, but aside from the common sphere of influence, there's really nothing to connect her to the Sovereigns... and if I was writing a sourcebook on these drow, I personally wouldn't say "They worship Balinor." The remarkable thing about the Sovereigns and Six is that they ARE so widespread. Whether this is because they actually exist, a remarkably widespread and diffuse case of cultural contamination, or simple a fact that there are pools of divine energy that can be tapped more easily by those who use certain belief constructs, remains a mystery.
Hellcow 06-15-07, 01:29 PM	Even I get the double posts.
Hellcow 06-15-07, 01:30 PM	...and Natives don't consider them the Dark Six. With all of what I've said above, I agree with this. The medusas may see the similarities between the Darkness and the Shadow, but that doesn't mean that they set the Darkness alongside, for example, an analogue to the Mockery. Instead, they see the Darkness as the first of the deities; if a Mockery exists, he is a child of the Darkness, just as Aureon is. The same is true of human sects; the Deep Brethren and the Restful Watch worship subsects of the Sovereigns or Six and have no interest in the others.
heirodule 06-15-07, 04:18 PM	Exactly. There's nothing wrong with using a PrC that gives you faith points when you act in the name of your god. But Thor's never going to show up, shake your hand, and say "Good job, son." Will there be people who believe they have received revelations from Thor/Onatar/Dol Dorn, etc? Utterly convinced a god has spoken to them or did some miracle on their behalf and they have a revelation from him? Anyone claim to have texts inspired by the god and authoritative because of that? Because, oddly, that would mean that the people of eberron believe their gods do less than the gods of many human cultures.
Hellcow 06-15-07, 04:44 PM	Will there be people who believe they have received revelations from Thor/Onatar/Dol Dorn, etc? Utterly convinced a god has spoken to them or did some miracle on their behalf and they have a revelation from him? Absolutely. Hundreds or thousands of them. Paladins are called to service by force that they service; it doesn't manifest physically and say "Hey you!", and others may claim (as they have done with Joan of Arc) that the paladin is mad - but the PALADIN hears the call of the divine. Anyone who has received the benefit of divine magic may say that the gods have performed a miracle on his behalf. Anyone who uses commune or augury may chose to believe that he has heard the voice of the divine. And that's just magic. Anyone who's had a dream or an inspiration may attribute it to the divine (and many have in the past). Those who believe in the Sovereigns say that the Sovereigns do not manifest and act in humanoid form because they ARE manifest in all things. There is no war in which Dol Dorn, Dol Arrah, and the Mockery are not present. They may not guide each blade... but then again, can you prove that they didn't? They're called the Sovereigns because they DO govern the world - and that in turn is why the Sharn sect of the Blood of Vol despises the Sovereigns, saying that if they have such influence, the Sovereigns must hate mortals to allow them to suffer as they do. Meanwhile, looking to the Silver Flame - a force that doesn't even ascribe an anthropomorphic aspect to the divine - the Silver Flame has been responsible for the salvation of the Flame, and, by holding back the rajahs, the ongoing salavation of the world as a whole. So yes, people believe that the gods can speak to mortals or intercede in the world. But just because I say "The storm is a sign of the Devourer's wrath and it turned away from my farm because of Arawai's mercy" doesn't prove it's so - it's a very different thing from the Devourer coming down to smash my house in person and Arawai appearing to stop him. But as one of the faithful, *I* know the truth.
mhacdebhandia 06-15-07, 08:01 PM	The same is true of human sects; the Deep Brethren and the Restful Watch worship subsects of the Sovereigns or Six and have no interest in the others. Do you think they actively believe the other deities are less important/powerful/real, or simply less relevant to their concerns?
Hellcow 06-15-07, 08:17 PM	Do you think they actively believe the other deities are less important/powerful/real, or simply less relevant to their concerns? It depends on the sect. The Three Faces of War and the Restful Watch acknowledge the existence of the others but focus their devotion to their specific patrons... not unlike a priestess who dedicates her life to Boldrei but still considers herself to be a priestess of the Sovereigns. Others simply lack analogues to the full set. The orcs had analogues to a few of the Sovereigns and Six, but not the full set; likewise for the halflings. And in the middle we have people like the sahuagin and medusas. From what's seen in The Shattered Land, The Devourer is the central figure of their faith, and it's unlikely that they have an analogue to Aureon or Boldrei. On the other hand, they apparently do have a version of the Traveler, but they don't worship it. The medusas have a place in their myths for the other Sovereigns, but consider them to be weak and treacherous beings. In both cases, they do assign portfolios to their patrons which the Pyrnineans would give to other gods. The medusas see the Shadow as more than just a force of sinister magic and dark secrets; he is also a creator and bringer of life. And now I'm going to take a vow to stay off the boards for the weekend - I have too much writing to do. We'll see if I succeed. Talk amongst yourselves!
mhacdebhandia 06-15-07, 08:21 PM	Well, Keith, thanks for this last tidbit before you jet. Religion is probably my favourite aspect of the setting, so I appreciate your comments. :)
The White Sorcerer 06-15-07, 08:43 PM	In my Eberron the gods can and do actively manifest on the Material Plane. When they do, however, you won't know it. So you won't recognize the tired old sage as Aureon or the foul-mouthed pirate as the Devourer. Well, you might, but in that case it's propably actually the Traveler.
ArcTan 06-16-07, 02:56 PM	Obviously there are many exceptions to this pattern. But if I ever say that a particular group of people worship a member of the Sovereigns or Six (as I did in the Droaam section of the ECS), I mean just that - they worship a god which, based on common iconography and myth, can be identified as being, for all intents and purposes, the same as one of the forces worshipped under the Pyrinean faith. They may have very different traditions - the giants say Karaak the final Guardian preserves souls while the Pyrineans say he torments them; the medusas say the Darkness is the benevolent creator while the Pyrineans say the Shadow is a malevolent corruptor; and so on. But the two are close enough that people on either side of the gap can say "You're worshipping my god, you've just got your facts wrong." The giants do depict Karaak as a dracolich, and even a Pyrinean theologist will admist that as the brother of Kol Korran, the original name of the Keeper was likely something following the formula "Kol K-"... such as, perhaps, "Kol Karrak". In real life, this isn't that uncommon a phenomenon in history. At the height of the Hellenistic Age when Greek-based culture was dominant through the Old World, it was very common practice for the Hellenistic rulers of a civilization to equate their god with a Greek god -- to say that Isis was Aphrodite, for instance, or that Thoth was Hermes. People didn't *argue* with them about this -- they would just say that the Greeks misunderstood, or at least disagreed, about the place of the gods. The Babylonians would say that they revered Isis much more than the Greeks revered Isis (because Aphrodite was a comparatively less important deity than Isis was) and the Egyptians would say that in their kingdom Thoth was the god of scribes while he appeared to the Greeks as a god of messengers and thieves. This carried on with the Romans -- even though we today often say that Mars was just the "Roman name for Ares", Mars was actually a quite different god who later got mixed up with Ares -- but you can tell that the Romans liked Mars a lot more than the Greeks liked Ares. Saturn was a highly benevolent and beloved deity in Roman religion who was only identified with Cronus (a highly negative figure) because he was the father of Jupiter, whom the Romans decided was Zeus. Etc. Even after Christianity came and established monotheism everywhere, all that happened was that a lot of old gods and demigods became saints. One can imagine in some hypothetical future where the Church of the Silver Flame spreads over all Khorvaire and actual worship of the Host is discouraged in favor of abstract contemplation of the Flame, images of the female warrior-deity Dol Arrah will remain under different names as a "saint" embodied in the Flame (perhaps conflating her with her old servant, Tira Miron). It's what happened with the goddess Brigid and St. Brigid.
ArcTan 06-16-07, 02:58 PM	In my Eberron the gods can and do actively manifest on the Material Plane. When they do, however, you won't know it. So you won't recognize the tired old sage as Aureon or the foul-mouthed pirate as the Devourer. Well, you might, but in that case it's propably actually the Traveler. I actually don't have a problem with this kind of "Touched By An Angel"/"Joan of Arcadia" divine manifestation, since these manifestations are more things the gods *do* than the actual gods being there -- i.e. it's a vision or an encounter that affects the PC, but not someone the PC could tie up and drag into court to prove that the Devourer "really exists", and not someone the PC could kill with a sword to "kill the Devourer". (I would say they're "avatars", but I don't want to drag in D&DG's rules for avatars and how to fight them.)
Hellcow 06-16-07, 04:31 PM	In real life, this isn't that uncommon a phenomenon in history. Oh, certainly. Though I will counter to say that there IS a factor in Eberron that we don't have in our world: clerics. Clerics gain an alignment aura and access to domains based on the force they worship. So not only do we have the fact that the Shadow of the Pyrineans and the Darkness of the medusas was represented by a similar design of a shadow dragon prior to any contact between the two cultures (and with the medusas we're talking about people who began their worship of the Darkness not only in Khorvaire, but in Khyber, so it's really not a question of "Did both cultures somehow pick up the image from the giants?"), but we have the fact that the clerics of both Shadow and Darkness have access to the same domains and possess the same alignment aura. Ultimately, this is about syncretism, the same as it is in our world. Perhaps the Sovereign images are the result of global events from the Age of Demons, and are interpretations of epic historical events perceived and recorded by all cultures, and modified by each species. Certainly there have been and are people who worship deities like Hurallia, who have absolutely nothing to do with the Sovereigns, but whom the Pyrinean-tradition priests will still happily try to transform into the Sovereigns to set the people on the right path. Hurallia doesn't fit the role of already being Balinor - but that won't stop a missionary from making her Balinor, or a servant of Balinor, or what have you, just as one might convert the Loa into saints. Mythology, religion, and folklore are all favorite topics of mine. Syncretism is a natural thing seen throughout history. It's simply the case that specifically with Sovereigns and Six, there is something even a step beyond what we've seen in our world. It's not just that I say Hermes is Thoth, it's that when I arrived you were actually already worshipping "Hormes", and that while we made him a human and you made him a giant, we both show him with the head of an ibis and a caudecus in one hand... and our clerics both draw on the same domains and channel positive energy. This doesn't mean the GOD exists; but it does mean that there is a force of divine energy - that force that provides alignment aura, domains, and positive/negative energy bias - and that using certain semantic tools makes it easier to access this force. It could be as dry and scientific as arcane magic, or it could be the god exists. But the level of syncretism is supposed to be a step farther than we've seen in our world. But this is nothing I haven't said before (and on this thread, even), so I'll try to let it go now. ;)