Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Subtle Knife 07-04-07, 08:38 PM	In gaming our way through Eyes of the Lich Queen, my Kalashtar telepath has, of course, developed an Aberrant Dragonmark. She is notably disturbed by this, as 1) she is the only Kalashtar to have ever developed a dragonmark, making her either an oddity or a pariah, 2) it is an Aberrant Mark (Feather Fall 1/day - woohoo!), certain to make her even more of a pariah within or outside her Kalashtar community, and 3) it manifested on the left side of her face, compelling her to wear a mask at all times now. Given all of this, my question is this - what ends would you force a character to go to in order to remove an Aberrant Mark? Would you make it a remote possibility, or is she stuck? SK
Edymnion 07-04-07, 09:01 PM	I'd say she's stuck. I mean, the player agreed to this, and spent a feat on it, its pretty much set. TMK, the only way even suggested to remove a dragonmark involved killing the person it was attached to.
Crake 07-04-07, 09:26 PM	Wait, shouldn't her abberant mark me energy resistance 1/day? I think there was a paragraph in the adventure that said races who couldn't normally develope a dragonmark got that ability by default. If you can't get rid of it, you could always lie about it. Say the abberant mark is a psionic tattoo for catfall. Kalashtar like psionic tattoos, so that might make them give her less grief.
Edymnion 07-04-07, 09:31 PM	Wait, the module forces abberant marks on characters? Geez, guess what just went on my blacklist...
DragoonDarkfire 07-04-07, 09:37 PM	Well perhaps the dragons would know a way? Or they'd just kill her but you're the DM.
Subtle Knife 07-04-07, 09:46 PM	Yes, it does state that in the module. I modified it (as I modify most things), as it provided nothing at all to benefit the character (who has the Specified Energy Adaptation power). This option was provided to everyone who opted for/were forced to develop an Aberrant Mark. And I'm not concerned regarding the game mechanics of removing a Dragonmark - I'm interested in out-of-the-box, lateral-thinking plots that would be interesting devices to use after Eyes of the Lich Queen. SK
Rekko 07-04-07, 10:11 PM	I'd say the fiends would know a way to remove an aberrant dragonmark. Your player would have to go meet some fiends, survive the encounter, bargain with the fiends so they help him/her. The player would have to make a pact with a fiend, pass through some very dark ritual (ability drain/dmg) and further more be possessed by the fiend thereafter. The dark ritual requires that someone receives the aberrant dragonmark, so either your character finds someone willing to receive it or forces someone through this. Remember that this is Eberron, no adventure are meant to end happily. Rekko
The White Sorcerer 07-05-07, 02:09 AM	Geez, guess what just went on my blacklist... However, it just went on my must-buy list.:D
The Crimson Dawn 07-05-07, 03:03 AM	Hey Edymnion you should read this because you really should give that adventure a chane and here is why Slight Spoiler so do not read if you do not want info From what I understand in the module near the beginning the adventurers do gain dragonmarks. These marks are a plot point and are removed if you are successful in the adventure. If the marks are not removed the characters will die from the marks since they are not true marks. This will prevent the characters from getting free dragonmarks on races who normally do not gain dragonmarks. I hope this alleviates your dislike for this module a little bit as I have heard it is a fun adventure.
Nived 07-05-07, 03:28 AM	Wait, the module forces abberant marks on characters? Geez, guess what just went on my blacklist... Maybe you should actually read the adventure Edy, there's a very specific event that causes this. It is the crux of the plot, a unique unrepeatable event (in a lifetime anyway). As such there are no rules for removing a Dragonmark, but the very fact this character has a mark breaks the rules... Actually at the end of Eyes of the Lich Queen the marks are just stabalized, your characters remain marked. Had they not found The Dragon Eye their unnatural marks would have killed them within the year... the Dragon Eye 'stabalized' them, they're no longer killing the characters. My suggestion would be a quest to remove it.... the Forge of the Dragon Eye is an artifact from the Age of Demons.... I'd say your answer... if one indeed does exist... is somewhere in the Demon Wastes. Surviving long enough to find it is the trick. Conversely the answer might lie with a demon bound in the volcano gaurded by that mad half fiend black dragon wanna be god.... its up the the PCs to find a way to get that answer. A (literally) once in a lifetime artifact gave the marks... I'd say only another artifact can remove them... what that artifact is, where it is, and what the party has to do to get it... well that sounds like an excellent follow up adventure. As for removing it before the end of Eyes of the Lich Queen? Impossible the entire plot pretty much relies on the fact they have to find the Dragon's Eye to not die... if they had another way to remove the marks early... game over. Now if you want you can have the Dragon's Eye remove the marks... but that wouldn't explain the ghost from chapter 3.
The White Sorcerer 07-05-07, 07:13 AM	What would happen to a character who already has a dragonmark (true or aberrant)?
DBlizzard 07-05-07, 08:22 AM	What would happen to a character who already has a dragonmark (true or aberrant)? It's covered in the adventure text, actually. Yuck, there are spoilers throughout this thread. Subtle Knife, you might want to append a [Spoilers tag] on this thread. Oddly enough, I have a dilemma with this. There are rules for changelings replicating dragonmarks. However, how easy is it for them to hide their own? ;)
Edymnion 07-05-07, 08:40 AM	Hey Edymnion you should read this because you really should give that adventure a chanceNope, after reading this, its officially on my "Never going to use" list, as it breaks a cardinal rule of the game. The DM is not allowed to force an unwanted change on a character against their will. You don't slap a weird template on a PC without their player's permission, and you don't go slapping abberant dragonmarks on them unless you have the player's permission. If the module thinks so little of the players that it forces them to be social pariahs if they like it or not, its not something I'm going to use. Would be differant if the player in question had wanted the mark, but obviously from this thread they don't want it. I call foul on that. I know that if that got sprung on my as a player I'd give an ultimatim. Either the mark goes, or I do. And yes, I have walked out of games where the DM did this sort of thing to my characters without so much as a "by your leave". At the very least the players should be warned before the group decides to play the module that this could happen, and anyone that isn't okay with it be made immune to it. Seriously, this is a *MAJOR* no-no in my book.
Syltorian 07-05-07, 09:08 AM	There is a spell in Dragonmarked called banish dragonmark. It is temporary, but perhaps someone can turn it into a magic item for you. Or even create a tattoo on your body. Anyway, it could counteract the mark. The Dragonmarked Houses might do that for excoriates already, I assume, after they got over the flaying the skin. Of course, any excoriate would still get the saves, so it still allows for those excoriates that make them or get rid of the tattoo/cursed object that they have to hold on to. An aberrant who doesn't want the mark could chose to fail the saves each time. (Note that the part about excoriates is purely my own invention, extrapolated from the existence of the spell). So, you can't remove it, but knowing the right people and spells, you could suppress it indefinitely.
Darakhoranon 07-05-07, 10:17 AM	Iīm with Edymnion on this. NEVER force anything like that on your players. If they asked for it (they actually wanted this aberrant mark or whatever - or were just incredibly stupid...), no problem. But provided that they didnīt behave this way, Iīd never force anything like that on them without also providing a way out. As far as I understand, this adventure DEPENDS on the PCs developing aberrant marks, so Iīd be inclined to see this as an exception - as long as they do get rid of them in the end... Getting rid of a dragonmark: Your best bet is probably finding a dragon - they are argueably the most knowledgeable beings concerning the Draconic Prophecy (to which the marks are - probably ?!? - tied). And a few of them might be even inclined to help you. For the right price, that is... The UC should also know quite a bit about dragonmarks. But if they would WANT to help you? Just stay clear of the dragonmarked houses...
DBlizzard 07-05-07, 10:29 AM	As far as I understand, this adventure DEPENDS on the PCs developing aberrant marks, so Iīd be inclined to see this as an exception - as long as they do get rid of them in the end... Spoiler time (yes, I know others haven't cared, I on the other hand....): Not necessarily aberrant marks: Characters with dragonmarks gain an additional use of their least (or aberrant) ability. Characters of dragonmarked races without dragonmarks gain their choice of a true dragonmark they qualify for or else an aberrant mark. Characters of subraces of dragonmarked races gain an aberrant mark. Characters of non-dragonmarked races get a "special" aberrant dragonmark with a specific effect (the aforementioned "resist energy"). Honestly, I think it's overreaction to the plot device. I've seen many things where adventures force things on characters they may or may not like, depending on the character. I've seen characters even poisoned against their will! Exposed to disease! Level drained! Framed for murder. All of these with no clue they were going to happen to the character based on their choices. I would have no problem for this. Heck, I had a character turned blue during a game (didn't find out it was a disease until after the campaign was over). Still, this is off-topic. Back on-topic, there are a few good suggestions here. However, the main issue is the DM. What is their opinion of the subject? Whatever we suggest as a good idea won't matter if the DM objects, and it doesn't matter if we think something is dumb if the DM thinks its a good idea ("sandpaper!").
Lord_Madrigan 07-05-07, 11:33 AM	So you can give a warforged a Dragonmark in this adventure? Cannith and LoB would love to get there hands on said warforged. To remove a dragon Mark? Ask the Daughters of Sora Kell or the Daelkyr.
DBlizzard 07-05-07, 11:39 AM	Wasn't there an eldritch machine that removed dragonmarks in a certain Eberron novel?
Rekko 07-05-07, 12:10 PM	A dragonmarked character that wants to get rid of her dragonmark would have to travel deep in the Mournland to the Glowing Chasm. The place is filled with weird and strange effects. Rumours say that if you jump in the Glowing Chasm, the raw chaotic powers of the place grants the deepest wishes of the one who jumped. However, the one who jumped in need to survive the fall, if so, it also needs to find a way to climb back up or make her way through Khyber back to the surface. It is said that we have seen less people come back alive from the Chasm than back from the Mournland. Maybe the Glowing Chasm curses the ones it granted his wish.
The White Sorcerer 07-05-07, 12:18 PM	Wasn't there an eldritch machine that removed dragonmarks in a certain Eberron novel? I think using that one is pretty lethal, if you mean the one in The City of Towers.
WarlockDa 07-05-07, 05:52 PM	So you can give a warforged a Dragonmark in this adventure? Yes. Now as far the Forcing etc etc of the Dragonmark onto a PC for the adventure,....my group has greatly enjoyed this module, and they were totally amazed with the DrMk effect. Now if you and/or the PC doesn't want it, why not have the effect removed if the artifact is destroyed? (Can't recall if it is or not in the adventure). This alone would be a great follow up adventure for the group, especially since they'll now be around 10th level.
Edymnion 07-05-07, 06:00 PM	Honestly, I think it's overreaction to the plot device.Yeah, nothing like having a module force your character into the position where he can never again directly deal with the great houses, or be seen in polite (or even impolite) company, and all around have your character become an instant social outcast through no fault of their own. If the effect was temporary, and it just faded away on it's own after the module was done, that would be one thing, because you didn't permanently cripple someone's character without their permission. Its the differance between giving someone a temporary disease that they suffer through and then get over, and giving them leprosy.
mhacdebhandia 07-05-07, 07:17 PM	I don't think there is a meaningful difference between a module which uses a potentially fatal curse as motivation for the PCs to get involved in the story and what I understand of Eyes of the Lich Queen - especially since the aberrant dragonmarks involved effectively are a fatal curse, albeit one with some benefits. However, I agree with Edymnion's point that this kind of storyline - whatever the details - is not something which you just throw into your campaign without knowing how your players will react. Even a question as simple as "Are you okay with something very bad happening to your character as a motivation to go on this particular adventure?" would be enough.
Edymnion 07-05-07, 08:46 PM	I don't think there is a meaningful difference between a module which uses a potentially fatal curse as motivation for the PCs to get involved in the story and what I understand of Eyes of the Lich Queen - especially since the aberrant dragonmarks involved effectively are a fatal curse, albeit one with some benefits.Well, I know that I for one would not want to play a module where my character died at the end, reguardless of what I did. Its why I don't play Call of Cthulu, as I would actually like to have a character that dies of old age in their sleep once in a while. A potentially fatal curse isn't really a good comparison, because its only potentially fatal. The abberant mark isn't potential, its full on there. There's no getting over it, and it fundamentally changes the way your character works. Now, if the player is cool with that, great, lets play. If I had made a socialite bard that likes to hobnose with the rich and famous and the DM tells me I get an abberant mark across my face to where I can never go out in public again, he might as well have just killed the character, no save, get out of here Blackleaf, you're dead.
Nived 07-05-07, 09:10 PM	Lets lay our cards on the table Demons way back when tried to create an artifact that would as one NPC contact puts it 'controls dragons'. This artifact was tapped into the violent and unstable energy of the Draconic Prophecy itself... the Dragons took it apart and sealed it away. The PCs in the first part of the adventure stumble upon the location of the Forge of the Dragon Eye, a part of this divice, in a that was sealed so no fiend or dragon could ever find it again... shame that the PCs aren't fiends or dragons. The cave is covered in the draconic prophecy, dragonmark like lettering covers the walls... when the PCs cause the incomplete device to activate... they end up marked, covered with a piece of the prophecy that the eldritch plot device was tied into. Those already marked have their marks altered cosmetically (it doesn't look like it used to) and they can use the powers they already had additional times per day. These are not natural marks caused from a device from the Age of Demons... long before there were races that could bare Dragonmarks. ANYWAY, once activated the machine cannot be activated again for a very very very very very long time (last time it was able to operate was 1800 years ago). Anyway the plot unfolds and the PCs learn this happened once before and the people who were marked all died within a year because those marks consumed them... all but one of them who went to Argonessen and found a cure. The Cure is coming in contact with the other half of the artifact it stabalizes the mark and keeps it from killing you. That also happens to empower the other half of the artifact and when a blue dragon is killed within range of it the artifact mutates it into a Bluespawn Godslayer The idea being that the device was never ment to 'control dragons' directly... it was ment to turn dragons against their own... but in a violent and corruptful way. Anyway, putting a curse, disease or causing the PCs to journey across the world or do other stuff is allowed but just because the curse is related to Dragonmarks it's not? Now in the case of the Original Poster... either the DM wasn't nice and made it manifest on the face (BAD DM) or the PLAYER decided to have it on the face, so you can't say it was forced. The module gives the PLAYERS the choice of their marks and where they are. Also in case your curious the artifact takes centuries to recharge and can never be used again so long as someone who used it the first time is still alive. In the end Edy, I still think you should read the damn thing before you decide its utter crap.
WarlockDa 07-05-07, 09:32 PM	Another real simple idea,.....let the player decide where in the heck on the PC the mark appears :) I've yet to demand a random roll for any PC's Mark location, though I will inform a PC that depending on how far they take a mark (least, lesser, greater), it may or mat not become visible depending on where they choose it to start. A least on the upper arm is fine,....but once it's a greater, the tips will imerge on the back of the hand, parts will work up the neck, etc.
DragoonDarkfire 07-05-07, 09:39 PM	Kinda reminds me of Princess Mononoke actually...
DBlizzard 07-05-07, 11:03 PM	If I had made a socialite bard that likes to hobnose with the rich and famous and the DM tells me I get an abberant mark across my face to where I can never go out in public again, he might as well have just killed the character, no save, get out of here Blackleaf, you're dead. Good grief, it's certainly nothing like that. Even if you are forced into the Aberrant Mark the Aberrant Marks don't seem to be that obvious that they are Aberrant. After all you need a spellcraft roll to tell the difference. Sure, there is likely to be some prejudice, and dealing with the dragonmarked houses will likely have some friction. Still, saying "I can never go out in public again" is a stretch. Aberrant Mark prejudice isn't that bad. Plus, I don't know how many DMs are running this, but I allow each player to decide where the mark is. The exception was the first, but the adventure specifically puts that in a circumspect area. It states the characer feels a burning sensation beneath their clothes.
The Crimson Dawn 07-05-07, 11:55 PM	The easiest answer in my mind would be... In case you can not tell SPOILERS... Just decide that if the characters are successful in the adventure the dragonmarks go away. It is not too hard to come up with an explanation that works I mean how often do people play an adventure with no additions or changes in it? Another way would be to have a small side quest after words to deal with the marks I think that would be fun.
mhacdebhandia 07-06-07, 12:24 AM	If I had made a socialite bard that likes to hobnose with the rich and famous and the DM tells me I get an abberant mark across my face to where I can never go out in public again, he might as well have just killed the character, no save, get out of here Blackleaf, you're dead. As an aside: I think you're overstating the extent to which aberrant dragonmarks lead to "social outcast" status. Both Keith's own Dreaming Dark series and, for instance, Sharn: City of Towers present aberrant dragonmarks as something only the dragonmarked houses really care about. (The Sharn reference is on page 52, in the description of The Augury in Clifftop; it's a business offering divination services run by an 18th-level magewright who was expelled from House Phiarlan when she developed an aberrant mark - and has survived as an independent businesswoman to the age of 334. This while competing with Tharashk, Sivis, and Kundarak, mind you.)
yrogerg 07-06-07, 12:34 AM	As an aside: I think you're overstating the extent to which aberrant dragonmarks lead to "social outcast" status. Both Keith's own Dreaming Dark series and, for instance, Sharn: City of Towers present aberrant dragonmarks as something only the dragonmarked houses really care about. (The Sharn reference is on page 52, in the description of The Augury in Clifftop; it's a business offering divination services run by an 18th-level magewright who was expelled from House Phiarlan when she developed an aberrant mark - and has survived as an independent businesswoman to the age of 334. This while competing with Tharashk, Sivis, and Kundarak, mind you.) Not only that, but unless I read Dragonmarked incorrectly, but even the Houses aren't monolithically hostile to Aberrent Marked. What with House Gallanda and whatnot.
mhacdebhandia 07-06-07, 12:41 AM	I was just looking over the section on aberrant marks in Dragonmarked myself. Page 157: The old superstitions remain, but they are losing their power. Few believe the old claim that the aberrant dragonmarked are the children of the Dragon Below, as the horrors of the Last War have driven such concerns from the mind of the common folk. Page 158 goes into some detail concerning the fact that prejudice against aberrant dragonmarked characters is a sliding scale which can be adjusted to suit individual campaigns.
Syltorian 07-06-07, 06:15 AM	Good grief, it's certainly nothing like that. Even if you are forced into the Aberrant Mark the Aberrant Marks don't seem to be that obvious that they are Aberrant. After all you need a spellcraft roll to tell the difference. True. But I've never understood why you needed a spellcraft check to tell the difference between a blue-green true dragonmark and a fierce blood red or oil black aberrant one. The books are quite clear that they look different (with the exception of mixed marks according to Dragonmarked). I get it that you need a check to figure out what the mark's powers are, but it should otherwise be pretty obvious that something is wrong with that mark. Maybe not to every commoner who has never seen more than one or two marks and cannot generalise, but House members and anyone in regular contact with them should be able to realise something is off even if they don't have a first clue about spellcraft. In particular the kind of people Endymnion's socialite character wants to deal with. Aberrant marks are, after all, a frightening and well-known myth (especially in Sharn), even if it has less impact on people's behaviour towards aberrant-marked than it used to have.
yrogerg 07-06-07, 06:59 AM	Nope, after reading this, its officially on my "Never going to use" list, as it breaks a cardinal rule of the game. The DM is not allowed to force an unwanted change on a character against their will. You don't slap a weird template on a PC without their player's permission, and you don't go slapping abberant dragonmarks on them unless you have the player's permission. If the module thinks so little of the players that it forces them to be social pariahs if they like it or not, its not something I'm going to use. Would be differant if the player in question had wanted the mark, but obviously from this thread they don't want it. I call foul on that. I know that if that got sprung on my as a player I'd give an ultimatim. Either the mark goes, or I do. And yes, I have walked out of games where the DM did this sort of thing to my characters without so much as a "by your leave". At the very least the players should be warned before the group decides to play the module that this could happen, and anyone that isn't okay with it be made immune to it. Seriously, this is a *MAJOR* no-no in my book. Honestly, I'd never go this far. I feel like too many people do take this attitude to an extreme, and that it waters down some of the more interesting elements of the game. It's this attitude that causes people to houserule that PCs never die from hitpoint loss, refuse to use save-or-die effects, refuse to use Aboleths as monsters, and to create new, watered-down Rust Monsters that doesn't do any damage that isn't immediately restored upon the end of the encounter. This attitude even leads to another of your personal pet-peeves: the ruling regarding Reincarnate and Dragonmarks. Personally, I disagree with this design philosophy, as it really does kill any potential for meaningful tension in the game, and in this case, the "permanent change" that's being "arbitrarily imposed" on the characters is one that's largely beneficial (See what happens to normal Dragonmarked invididuals and races), and free. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Gygaxian, I just think that this newfangled, anti-Gygaxian design philosophy of "nothing in an encounter should cause a player any harm that can't be recovered from immediately once the encounter's done" is equally lame.
Darakhoranon 07-06-07, 09:16 AM	Nobody said it has to be "corrected" immediately... Itīs just that itīs - as far as we know - practically impossible to get rid of a dragonmark. So, as Edymnion said, forcing aberrant marks on the PCs (which might be necessary for the adventure and even interesting/create high tension/etc.) is PROBABLY a bad idea, since youīre potentially destroying another personīs character. If there is a way out (getting rid of the dragonmark) or if itīs not really eye-catching (itīs somewhere under your clothes), the whole "problem" disappears. But if itīs on the "socialite bardīs" face - without him asking for it, mind you - this character is done for. Sure, if nothing bad ever happened to your character, the whole game would be boring, but you can (usually) "rectify" the "bad things" - by healing your wounds, buying new equipment, getting revenge, getting raised, ...
Nived 07-06-07, 10:50 AM	Which is partially what I don't understand about this. Was it the DM or the Player that put it on the face? Because following the module the PLAYER chooses the location of the small 4 inch across Dragonmark. There is no negative effect other than it'll kill them in one year if they don't do something about it. Otherwise they get a free power.
Rekko 07-06-07, 12:04 PM	To get to the main point of this thread: What would you do to allow your player to remove a dragonmark (true or aberrant) ? Rekko
Nived 07-06-07, 12:08 PM	Artifact level plot device you build a campaign around.
DragoonDarkfire 07-06-07, 12:12 PM	Artifact level plot device you build a campaign around. You mean Eldritch Machine?
Nived 07-06-07, 12:14 PM	Yes. Plot device givith, plot device takeith away.
Syltorian 07-06-07, 02:03 PM	To get to the main point of this thread: What would you do to allow your player to remove a dragonmark (true or aberrant) ? Generally, I wouldn't, because it would raise too many questions about the history and setting. Why would the dragonmarked skin their excoriates (in the past, anyway), if they could be removed? Why kill the aberrant-marked without any conditions if you could make it clear that if they remove their mark, they can keep their lives? Since the damage (gaining the mark in the first place) is done, however, here's what I would do in that situation: 1. As has been said, an eldritch machine/artifact. That's what caused it, after all. Nived put it well. This means that it's a rare, even unique occurence that could explain why nobody has used it before (or not enough to leave much of an impact). 2. Use Banish Dragonmark, as I said above, and try to make it permanent by the way of a permanency spell or a magical item, or even a potion (Jorasco's Aberrant Mark Inhibitors) that can be taken once or regularily. I'd give it out in return for a little favour, rather than counting it against the character wealth. 3. Perhaps a variant of the Player's Handbook II retraining quests. There may be magical locations or the like that can take them away. Make the quest as short or as long as you want to. It might be a whole new campaign, or an easy trip to some magical waters a day or two with the lightning rail away. 4. Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) can reassign feats. A dragonmark is a feat. Drop the XP requirement, since the character will not be gaining a new feat in return. 5. Wish or Miracle. If you can find someone who does that for you. Perhaps you can get an audience with Jaela, if you make it through Flamekeep bureaucracy, and convince her to cast such a difficult spell for you....
MJMurtha 07-06-07, 03:26 PM	Hi All, I am in the process of running this adventure, while the aberrant dragonmarks were one of the things that attracted me to this module I had decided that each player would be given a choice at the end of the adventure whether they wanted to keep them. And it will be case by case how that is handled in MY campaign. I tend to use modules as inspiration and follow them very loosely and as best fits MY campaign. I am the DM and I decide what happens in MY campaign. I've never felt bound to run it in X fashion cause the module said so. Just my two cents
TiwazTyrsfist 07-06-07, 04:46 PM	I'd say (Mordenkainen's) Disjunction should work. Touch mark, Roll. Dragonmarked individual gets a will save to resist. (Choose to fail if you want to get rid of the mark) However, be assured that the Chamber will notice people disjoining dragonmarks. And they won't take it any better than an archmage would take someone going through their spell book with a bottle of white out.
Edymnion 07-06-07, 10:56 PM	Honestly, I'd never go this far. I feel like too many people do take this attitude to an extreme, and that it waters down some of the more interesting elements of the game. It's this attitude that causes people to houserule that PCs never die from hitpoint loss, refuse to use save-or-die effects, refuse to use Aboleths as monsters, and to create new, watered-down Rust Monsters that doesn't do any damage that isn't immediately restored upon the end of the encounter.Now see, that really is taking it to the extreme. Again, there is a differance between the players giving permission for you to do something to them (and lets not mince words, its implied that if you fight, you might die, if you don't want your character to die, you just retire them and they can live out their lives happily ever after), and having a character altering event that you did *NOT* approve of. And when I am in the game where the DM says "tough, my way or the highway" on something like this, I'll choose the highway. I've done it before, DM just arbitrarily screwed with my character, I told him no, he didn't back down, and I left his game and never looked back. Its a fundamental lack of respect on the DM's part. Fundamental basis of the game. The world belongs to the DM, the characters belong to the Players. In the end, the Players cannot do anything to affect the world that the DM does not approve of, and the DM cannot do anything to the characters that the Players do not approve of. And call me "oldschool", but I still play my Eberron where people think abberant marks are evil, cause insanity and disease, and God freaking help a non-dragonmarked race that develops a mark, because as soon as somebody discovers that they have it, that person is going to "dissappear". My personal opinion? They wanted to expand the Abberant Marks in Dragonmarked (a good thing), and then realized "Oh crap, we painted this up as being a terrible, shameful thing. Quick, backpeddle and say its not really as bad as we said before, so we can sell this book to more Players!" So, flavor gets diluted in favor of playability.
The Crimson Dawn 07-06-07, 11:19 PM	Honestly I think it is more of a calm before the storm thing. The abberant marks have been out of site out of mind for so long that people have started to fear them less because no abberant marks have been powerful in a very long time. I think it makes sense as now the abberant marked can rise up and suprise the dragonmarked which will once again repeat the glorious bloodshed...hehe never mind too much of my own thing.
Edymnion 07-06-07, 11:32 PM	And shouldn't the dragons be taking special note when they find out whats up? Shifter walking around downtown Sharn because they think nobody is going to care that they have an Abberant Mark, gets abducted in the middle of the night and dragged off to Argonessa to be interrogated as to how it happened, etc, eventually leading to the dragons resealing the things so nobody can touch them, and likely rounding up all of the other people involved to make sure "the corruption can't spread"? Yeah, IMO, dragonmarks on non-dragonmarked characters = "get a backup character ready to go, because this one's days are numbered".
DBlizzard 07-07-07, 07:05 AM	And shouldn't the dragons be taking special note when they find out whats up? Actually, the dragons certainly are keeping an eye on what's up. In fact, it's an important plot element (or two) in the adventure. Yeah, IMO, dragonmarks on non-dragonmarked characters = "get a backup character ready to go, because this one's days are numbered". Wow, I'm glad you weren't around when a new dragonmark appeared in days past. I can see interest and "let's investigate". I don't see "let's kill it." "Look there is a half-orc. They don't have dragon marks. Die! Die!" "Wait, there's another one, and a human with teh same mark. Unnatural. Abomination! Die! Die!" What if it's a new dragonmarked house appearing. We've lost one, maybe it's time for a new one to takes it place. Whose to say it might not be a changeling (or warforged, or kalashtar, etc) house?
Edymnion 07-07-07, 02:13 PM	Wow, I'm glad you weren't around when a new dragonmark appeared in days past. I can see interest and "let's investigate". I don't see "let's kill it."Please, I didn't say anything about killing them, I just said that they would "dissappear". As in, they get dragged off to Argonessa to be studied, or one of the Houses drags them off to study. Doesn't necissarily mean that they would be killed, just that they are no longer viable PCs anymore. Think of it like real life. If I suddenly gained the power to shoot lasers out of my eyes, and the government found out about it, do you honestly think they'd let me walk around? No, they'd arrest me under some trumped up charge, and I'd spend the rest of my life in Area 51 (or whatever) while they preformed tests on me.
stone_dog 07-07-07, 03:55 PM	Well, I know that I for one would not want to play a module where my character died at the end, regardless of what I did. Its why I don't play Call of Cthulu, as I would actually like to have a character that dies of old age in their sleep once in a while. I have not read or played in any CoC adventure where death was automatic. The game is pretty lethal, but everybody dying at the end isn't an assumed facet of the game, despite all the internet jokes about it. Many people die, but most who survive life out their days as normally as they can. But mainly it really sounds like you are being unreasonably hostile to the game here. I'm not going to say that it is good or bad since I haven't read it, but I'm tending to agree with everybody that this glass is half full of possibility instead of boiling with campaign ending awefullness and about to shatter. Trying to cure a lethal curse is a time honored storyline. This module sounds like it could be a lot of fun with high drama and urgency driving a fugitive chase for a solution across the Five Nations. I also mostly disagree with the idea that the players have to approve everything that happens to their characters. It is a dangerous world out there and bad things happen. Sometimes, bad things happen to heroes. "Old School" is when you run with it in game and make it a part of the story instead of trying to call a time out and complain about how you didn't give permission to have your character die or mutate or lose a hand or can't remember his first kiss anymore because an alien wanted to see what that part of his brain did. To paraphrase Glengarry Glen Ross "You know what it takes to adventure? It takes brass balls to adventure. Go and do likewise players. The XP is out there. You pick it up it is yours, you don't and I have no sympathy for you. You want to go out on those quests tonight and play PLAY it is yours, you don't your characters will be shining shoes. You know what they'll be saying, sitting around in a tavern. "Oh yeah, I used to be an adventurer. Tough racket. : mimes drinking ale :" Call it old school, Hackmaster, Die Hard, playing dirty (ala the John Wick articles), rat bastard DMing or even being a dick if you want. All I know is I've never lost a player and everybody has always left at the end of the night reluctant to admit that there isn't enough time to keep going.
Edymnion 07-07-07, 09:07 PM	Trying to cure a lethal curse is a time honored storyline.Except that, again, there is no cure to an Abberant Mark. It is now a permanent part of your character, with all of the negative repercussions that come with it. IMO, its no differant than telling the player "Yeah, your wizard just gained a level in Fighter. No, you don't get any say in the matter, you've got a fighter level if you like it or not." If the player is okay with this happening, then its fine. But it is *NOT* something you just do to a player with no warning, with no approval. You don't just kill them without warning or way of avoiding it (blackleaf, you're dead, get out of here), you don't hack off their legs in the middle of nowhere, and IMO you don't slap abberant marks on them, unless you know ahead of time that the player is okay with it. I also mostly disagree with the idea that the players have to approve everything that happens to their characters. It is a dangerous world out there and bad things happen. Sometimes, bad things happen to heroes. "Old School" is when you run with it in game and make it a part of the story instead of trying to call a time out and complain about how you didn't give permission to have your character die or mutate or lose a hand or can't remember his first kiss anymore because an alien wanted to see what that part of his brain did.Considering that losing a hand is impossible under the rules, I would call that something that needs to be discussed beforehand. If its important to the story line that something like this happens, you approach the player before the game and ask "Hey, there's something coming up that is going to require somebody to lose a hand. You won't be able to get it regenerated for several sessions, until we finish this stuff out and get back to civilization. That okay, or should I ask one of the others?" Most times, the player will say its okay, and be appreciative that you respected them enough to ask first.All I know is I've never lost a player and everybody has always left at the end of the night reluctant to admit that there isn't enough time to keep going.And like I said, I've been in a game where the DM decided to just start slapping templates on all of our characters without asking first, and when we told him "Uh, no you didn't. I'm not playing that" he said take it or leave it. So every last one of us got up and left. Don't know whatever happened to that guy, and I honestly don't care, because he was an ass. Any DM that does that sort of thing without even asking first is an ass in my book, plain and simple.
Nived 07-07-07, 10:48 PM	However this isn't a template or a level of something you don't want, it effects your overall character little. Its a small 4 inch across mark that can be somewhere very descrete. Also as you point out "There's no way to get rid of it." Yeah well there's no way that a Kalashtar, Warforged, Shifter, Changling, Gobin, Giant or whatever else is being played to get it, this is a DM fiat a plot device that can easily be taken away. If you want it to be taken away at the end when they 'break the curse' fine do that. However Edy, you haven't read it and you're making a lot of assumptions. And you know what they say about assumptions right?
Edymnion 07-07-07, 11:03 PM	However Edy, you haven't read it and you're making a lot of assumptions. And you know what they say about assumptions right?Sure, but as far as I'm concerned, I already know the two things that make it something I will not use. It forces abberant marks on PCs, and it puts dragonmarks on races that aren't supposed to have them. Honestly, I don't care how well the rest of it is written, or what explination is given, those two things are enough to ensure that I won't use it, or that if I do, those things are removed or redone.
WarlockDa 07-07-07, 11:41 PM	Yup because it's simply too difficult to just go with it for the length of the module and then at the end add a little something that removes the marks from the PCs, thus curing them, yet leaving the complete concept of the adventure in place. My group is utterly loving this adventure. Noone cares about the mark at all, it's just a really fun multi session game. Last time I checked,....that's the key point to Eberron, and any RPG,....having some fun. Yup, that's pretty painstaking work to do right there. *sigh* Or just change the fluff, use the aberrant mark feat as normal, but it's coloring and all the fluff fits with a normal dragonmark, somehow this device as created a few completely new and never before seen True Dragonmarks, it just doesn't allow the user to take feats that require a True mark.
stone_dog 07-08-07, 01:54 AM	Except that, again, there is no cure to an Abberant Mark. Then you go out into the world and you make one. You are a hero with the destiny to change the world. Go out and change it. IMO, its no differant than telling the player "Yeah, your wizard just gained a level in Fighter. No, you don't get any say in the matter, you've got a fighter level if you like it or not."If the game is forcing you to burn one of your feats for this, then yeah, I agree this is a bad thing. If not, then it is whatever you make of it. Obviously some people value player empowerment over a dangerous world with perils, pitfalls and honest triumphs. Considering that losing a hand is impossible under the rules, I would call that something that needs to be discussed beforehand.Depends on the system really, but in general yeah. You set the expectation of how things are going to go when you start up the game. You don't do random crap to mutilate and disfigure just to be petty or watch them squirm, but you also don't hold back what is just going to happen. If its important to the story line that something like this happens, you approach the player before the game and ask "Hey, there's something coming up that is going to require somebody to lose a hand. You won't be able to get it regenerated for several sessions, until we finish this stuff out and get back to civilization. That okay, or should I ask one of the others?"-snicker- I'd have a hard time taking this game seriously. Somebody needs to lose a hand, but they will get it back, then chop off the damn hand, don't be a weasel about it. this is D&D and regeneration magic is at least heard of and the expectation that you are going to be able to afford/have access to it eventually is pretty much set. I've never been in a game where this was ever a concern. either the system had these kind of crits right up front or the system had a pretty implicit way of dealing with them. Most times, the player will say its okay, and be appreciative that you respected them enough to ask first.Or look at you wierd and wonder "Are you the DM or my kindergarten teacher?" Seriously... are there really players out there who get asked "I need you to be the center of the plot for a while" and they say no?! I'd be more (( okay fine, angry then)) that the surprise was ruined! Don't know whatever happened to that guy, and I honestly don't care, because he was an ass.I suppose that it depends on presentation. On the surface, I think that would make for an interesting game. Maybe not what I was expecting when I sat down to the table, but just getting up and walking out? Without actually being there and witnessing the fullness of the event I can't imagine such a thing. Any DM that does that sort of thing without even asking first is an ass in my book, plain and simple.Any player that doesn't have enough trust, guts or curiousity to see where a plotline or series of events goes in a game isn't worth worrying about. Most of the time something very cool is happening in the background. If you walk out just because something bad happened unexpectedly then you could miss out on something amazing.
Rauric 07-08-07, 08:13 AM	Yeah, nothing like having a module force your character into the position where he can never again directly deal with the great houses, or be seen in polite (or even impolite) company, and all around have your character become an instant social outcast through no fault of their own. If the effect was temporary, and it just faded away on it's own after the module was done, that would be one thing, because you didn't permanently cripple someone's character without their permission. Its the differance between giving someone a temporary disease that they suffer through and then get over, and giving them leprosy. You could make all the Dragonmarks appear on a spot on their bodies where it would easy to conceal it public view. That way, it is not "crippling". Plus if everyone gained a true Dragonmark or Greater version it would be no problem at all right? The concept of a Warforged or Changling getting "marked" in this way is appealing to me. Messes with the Prophecy a little and gives me story ideas. Or just make them fade away if they were Abberant Marks if ya want. No biggie, like most things in RPGs.;) On the topic of the dragons, some may want to drag you in while others may want you to run around the world and fufill your "destiny". So you have just picked up a Patron.
WarlockDa 07-08-07, 08:41 AM	The main patron, IS a dragon btw, so they know about it right off the bat
Nived 07-08-07, 11:42 AM	The main patron, IS a dragon btw, so they know about it right off the bat Not only that but Sur'Kil is the Chamber's resident expert on Aberrant Dragonmarks. So, justsoyaknow. They're aware.
Edymnion 07-08-07, 12:31 PM	Yup because it's simply too difficult to just go with it for the length of the module and then at the end add a little something that removes the marks from the PCs, thus curing them, yet leaving the complete concept of the adventure in place. I believe I said in my post that I would not run it unless I removed or altered the part about the marks. I call "Having the mark fade away with the death curse" as qualifying as "altering it". Honestly, I'd have no problems with it if the mark just went away on it's own, but apparently it doesn't, since we're in a thread about it. Screwing around with a character is okay, when it all goes back to normal when you're done. Permanent character changes, as I've said repeatedly now, are just not something the DM should do to their Players without some form of acknowledgement and permission.
LoneStranger 07-09-07, 07:44 PM	Actually my group just literally got to this part of the module yesterday, and everyone who was around when the event that triggered the dragonmark happened just noticed them in some cases with shock like "wait what's that doing there?". Now despite my Warforged's protests that he's "not built to arcane specifications" (three guesses where that came from) I'm interested to see how this plays out. The one thing that tells me there's something in the module to get rid of the mark since that becomes the major focus of the adventure after we get back to our employer for the adventure. Also I believe the mark that just shows up all of a sudden counts as a free feat, I'd have to check on that though.
Nived 07-09-07, 11:47 PM	Yes its a free feat
Creature_Mastermind 07-15-07, 06:20 PM	Seriously, this is a *MAJOR* no-no in my book.And just how big is this book 5 feet thick?:P ;) .
tenguroEd 07-15-07, 09:18 PM	Maybe if you used pyschic reformation then you might be able to remove it (if you have a psychic character that is). If you don't know what it is, here, the psion Class (not sure which discipline, my DM's character uses it, but he has expanded knowledge) but he/she can manifest her powers so a character can forget a feat, skills and a few more things at the cost of some XP. The exact page in the expanded psionic handbook is page 127.
Edymnion 07-16-07, 01:56 PM	And just how big is this book 5 feet thick?:P ;) .Hey, a little here, a little there, over a decade or so it adds up. :D
Creature_Mastermind 07-16-07, 05:27 PM	Hey, a little here, a little there, over a decade or so it adds up. :D lol good to see people still have senses of humor in this world:P :invasion::.
Cromage 07-16-07, 07:45 PM	Fundamental basis of the game. The world belongs to the DM, the characters belong to the Players. In the end, the Players cannot do anything to affect the world that the DM does not approve of, and the DM cannot do anything to the characters that the Players do not approve of. I'd hardly call this the "basis" of DnD. Players, after all, may do something unexpected that affects a DM's world (say, a lucky critical to a recurring villain, or an overlooked rule that spells doom to that villain). There's no way a DM can simply "undo" those kinds of events, although a DM *can* mitigate the impact of the event on the rest of the story. As such, bad things may happen to the characters that they don't like, such as the Bard breaking his playing arm, a PC unintentionally picking up a stone of weight, being infected with lycanthropy, or just being turned into a squirrel. That's just life. It should also be noted that the Dragonmark rules described here are *not* a fundamental change in build (although those can happen too, with stuff like reincarnate), but rather an additional feature with options and some RP drawbacks. Hardly forcing a Wizard to take a level in Fighter.
LoneStranger 07-16-07, 08:00 PM	Exactly Cromage, that's how I see it too. Of course it helps that as soon as one of the marks is seen on a character that didn't have it before (like a warforged), the whole module shifts to the race to remove it. In doing so it moves the story along and makes things fairly interesting in the process (escaping from a burning building when you can only move 20 feet a round and the main way out is blocked takes a healthy amount of desperate crazy to pull off). So far I don't see it as a big problem, in fact the group has gotten some more laughs out of the module than usual.
Edymnion 07-18-07, 08:11 PM	I'd hardly call this the "basis" of DnD. Players, after all, may do something unexpected that affects a DM's world (say, a lucky critical to a recurring villain, or an overlooked rule that spells doom to that villain). There's no way a DM can simply "undo" those kinds of events, although a DM *can* mitigate the impact of the event on the rest of the story. Of course they can. Having a villian thought dead reappear is a staple of pulp. Plus, it doesn't matter how powerful the characters are, they could never destroy Sharn unless you specifically let them. They can never kill Vol unless you specifically let them find her. Heck, the players will never get into a single fight unless you specifically put something there for them to fight. The DM has complete and total control over the world, and what goes on it. Just like nothing the DM can do can ever force a character to do anything. You can put hooks out left and right, you can railroad all you want, but if the player doesn't want to go, there is nothing you can do short of taking the character as an NPC and not giving it back to them.
Cromage 07-19-07, 04:58 PM	Of course they can. Having a villian thought dead reappear is a staple of pulp. Irrelevant. That's mitigating the effect on the story (mentioned earlier), not changing events that occurred. None of this changes the fact that the players and DM's NPCs are both part of the same game world, with the same limitations. (Of course, the DM can always change the rules--but doesn't have a blank check on doing so, in practice. Which is why a good DM cheats *for* his players rather than against them) The DM has complete and total control over the world, and what goes on it. Just like nothing the DM can do can ever force a character to do anything. You can put hooks out left and right, you can railroad all you want, but if the player doesn't want to go, there is nothing you can do short of taking the character as an NPC and not giving it back to them. We're not talking about forcing players; we're talking about character changes.
LoneStranger 07-20-07, 07:59 PM	Actually before I see things getting out of hand here I'd just like to address some of the issues in the last couple of posts. From the DM side there are quite a few things that he can do. BBEG got fragged in a couple of rounds, that's fine. He can have that be the end of the story and move on, or the bad guy could have had a plan in place to cover himself if he did die in that combat. Another thing to consider is if he was powerful enough and left enough of a lasting legacy on the world someone might try to bring him back, thereby re-releasing that threat on the world. No matter how you look at it the DM can "influence" things towards telling a better a story (even if it goes against the players to a certain point). Now also with that is that the DM can "inflict" things on his players as long as he gives them a way to deal with it (like the situation that started this thread). Basically if the DM decides one day that the general public hate the party and will never do anything to help them out again and they can't change that, it's time to leave that game. However if public opinion turns against the PCs at some point give them the chance to find out what's going on, give them a chance to restore the situation to what it was before. The key difference here is forcing changes onto the PCs vs presenting another option and giving them a way to undo it if they don't like it. The best players will take the change and incorporate into the character regardless if it's kept or not. The mediocre player will continue on as normal with few changes. The bad player will whine about whatever they get unless it makes them more powerful in both the short and long run.
The White Sorcerer 07-21-07, 02:22 AM	I'm still wondering why the character has the mark on his face. The locations should be limited to the shoulders, back, and chest.
Dragom 07-21-07, 03:54 AM	I did a triple take on the free Mark myself. They can't do that! Maybe it's treasure arcitecture and they have to make yearly pilgrimages. Maybe it's fake. Maybe it fades. No apperently it's a piece of treasure that cannot be refused, abandoned, sold or traded. It has severe rippling plot effects and is a solid alteration to the character's design concept. I wasn't happy with the "How many different books can we reference" or the use of Minatures staistics parts of adventure either. Like I wouldn't want to buy some good Eberron adventures.
LoneStranger 07-21-07, 04:44 AM	Actually the Dragonmark when it shows up during the adventure the player can specify where it shows up on the character. If the person wants the face that's fine, if they want it on the heel of the foot that's fine too. Also I will say that it's a shock that a book does try to cross-sell other books in the line and/or minis? Honestly that sounds about right to me.
The White Sorcerer 07-21-07, 04:56 AM	Actually the Dragonmark when it shows up during the adventure the player can specify where it shows up on the character. If the person wants the face that's fine, if they want it on the heel of the foot that's fine too. "Other characters grow new dragonmarks on their shoulders, chest, or back." Eyes of the Lich Queen, page 11
Need_A_Life 07-21-07, 10:16 AM	Well this one didn't, so that's a moot point. The kalashtar could disguise herself as a human, claiming it to be a mark of [handling/making/etc.], a tattoo, or even just shrugging and saying: "So this thing is going to kill me and cause me to go insane? Been drinking too much, have we?" Really, it is as much of a deal as the DM makes it. Personally, I (supposing I was the DM) would jump at the opportunity of getting them involved with House Tarkanan (who would - no doubt - know all there is to know on the removal of dragonmarks). Of course, I see the aberrant dragonmarks simply as descriptive devices seeing no problem in having one with no mechanical effect or reflavouring class abilities/ability scores to support having one. Warlocks in Eberron are often reflavoured to have an abbearant dragon mark of a greater variety (eldritch blast, invisibility, flight etc.), and I see no reason a clerics spells or a bards music couldn't come from the same source? Hell, I can probably make a half-decent argument for a rogue being reflavoured in that fashion (though sneak attack would be hard to reflavour properly). Once the adventure is over, you could give them what I would consider the equivalent of a skill trick (Complete Scoundrel): Aberrant Disappearance [Skill Trick] Requirements: Any aberrant dragonmark. Benefit: As a swift action you may hide your dragonmark from mundane inspection. Your aberrant dragonmark cannot be discerned by non-magical means, though any divination spell or clairsentience power trying to discover its presence function normally (true seeing also sees through this disguise). While the mark is hidden in this fashion, you cannot use the power of your mark. Making the mark reappear on your skin once more is a move action. Should do the trick, no?
LoneStranger 07-21-07, 08:25 PM	Haven't read the module itself so I missed that, the GM just let us put it anywhere we wanted.
xstormtrooperx 07-22-07, 09:34 AM	Haven't read the module itself so I missed that, the GM just let us put it anywhere we wanted. Right. The module says, that the players can choose the location (shoulder, back or the like). In my campaign I have choosen for my playerīs (some things they canīt controll from a pc-point-of-view), but NO body part which canīt easily hidden. No character breaking plot device... Edymimion should really read the adventure before making judgements from hear-say. Also I choosed a mark (albeit some mark with that fits the characters). The marks all were aberrant, because of the nature of the altar, it fits really good (existing dragonmarks would have improved but "tainted"). And my Pcīs were happy with their new marks. But they have now to face the prejudice of the people and dragonmarked houses...and to learn of their fate, if they donīt break the curse of the dragonmarks! :evillaugh They just received them... but they will learn soon to hide them!^^ And a small reminder: The altar remains inactive as long any of the beings that received a mark lives. When they are all dead, the altar functions again.
yrogerg 07-22-07, 07:00 PM	Once the adventure is over, you could give them what I would consider the equivalent of a skill trick (Complete Scoundrel): Aberrant Disappearance [Skill Trick] Requirements: Any aberrant dragonmark. Benefit: As a swift action you may hide your dragonmark from mundane inspection. Your aberrant dragonmark cannot be discerned by non-magical means, though any divination spell or clairsentience power trying to discover its presence function normally (true seeing also sees through this disguise). While the mark is hidden in this fashion, you cannot use the power of your mark. Making the mark reappear on your skin once more is a move action. Should do the trick, no? No skill requirements or skill check to use? I thought most skill tricks had one or both? :confused: Personally, I would add a trivial disguise check, but allow them to still make it as a swift action.
Need_A_Life 07-23-07, 07:18 AM	Alright, "Any skill 5 ranks"... needs to be usable by any class, remember? Besides, it's supposed to be a gift at the end of the adventure.
LoneStranger 07-23-07, 07:37 PM	It's supposed to be a gift huh? Any chance I can return it to the store, really it's not my size. Then again it's hard to find something that fits a six foot plus warforged that's all about the Adamantine. Really I'm about the only person to turn down a free ability in this case, of course it helps that I wasn't planning on having a dragonmark at all (see the warforged comment).