Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Isran_Imrador 12-29-04, 04:49 AM	does Vol and Lord of blades have divine rank? the do grant divine spell! Vol demigod rank 2 Lord of Blades rank 1 Any opinions?
LazarusX 12-29-04, 04:53 AM	Vol wants to be a deity. She isn't one, though. Lord of Blades is no where near getting a divine rank, in my opinion. But, in the nature of giving them whatever stats you want--go for it.
RandomCitizenX 12-29-04, 04:54 AM	Divine magic doesn't exactly work that way in Eberron. It seems to be more of the cleric's faith than the wil of a god that allows for the divine magic to take place. This is also the reason that Clerics who follow evil gods can still cast spells.
Isran_Imrador 12-29-04, 08:54 AM	I know that faith workes diffrently in eberron, but she leads a big cult of followers! then question would be how to gain divine rank in eberron? and how far away is vol to reach her goal?
Geoff Watson 12-29-04, 08:57 AM	"The Blood of Vol" is a long-lasting religion. Vol has the same name as the original founder (they're related) but she isn't the object of worship (the vast majority of the worshippers don't know she exists). Geoff.
Isran_Imrador 12-29-04, 09:11 AM	Vol is the only vol there ever was! there wasnt any blood of vol before she became a lich...!? and even if they dont know how she is, their worship goes "to" her..!?
Lujayne34 12-29-04, 09:12 AM	"The Blood of Vol" is a long-lasting religion. Vol has the same name as the original founder (they're related) but she isn't the object of worship (the vast majority of the worshippers don't know she exists). Geoff. Uh, actually she is the original founder not just related. Erandis d'Vol is the same as the founder not a descendant.
The White Sorcerer 12-29-04, 10:38 AM	I know that faith workes diffrently in eberron, but she leads a big cult of followers! 1. A vast majority of the followers of the Blood have never ever heard of Vol. 2. Should Jaela Daran, the Keeper of the Flame, also have divine rank?
AvonRekaes 12-29-04, 11:01 AM	Vol is not the only Vol there ever was. Vol is her last name, and the name of the Dragonmarked House with the Mark of Death. Merrix d'Cannith isn't the only Cannith there ever was, there is a large extended family with the Cannith surname. The Blood of Vol worships the teachings and ways of the Dragonmarked House of Vol, not the lich Vol. Secondly, worship of a creature does not automatically give it a Divine Rank. Every setting works differently. For instance, in Greyhawk, Gods are Gods are Gods. A God who is not worshipped anymore can still be alive. In Faerun, Gods can only live on the worship of their followers, and conversely worshipers can make someone a god (in large enough numbers). In Eberron, there *are no* gods, at least not any on the material plane. The mechanic of the Divine Rank doesn't even equate to godhood. Keith has suggested pulling out your copy of Deities and Demigods to make custom Rakshasa Rajas. The Rajas were not gods, but they had deific power, and not because they were worshiped. Now, I just gave you a loophole here. Divine Rank does not equate to Deity, so perhaps Vol does have a Divine Rank. But if she did, it would be because she in herself is singularly powerful, not because she is worshiped (Because she isn't).
Docrailgun 12-29-04, 11:16 AM	The followers of the the "Blood of Vol" church don't really "worship" anything, as in following a divine being. They venerate the elves of the House of Vol that had the Mark of Death and were destroyed a very long time ago. These followers believe that the Vol were eliminated by the followers of the Sovereigns (who this Church teaches are evil) because the elves of Vol were fighting against the curse of death that the Sovereigns placed on everything on Eberron. If any of those teachings are true or not is mostly lost to history. The average member of the Vol church knows nothing about the half-dragon lich that most of us call "Vol", or that she was the reason the Vol elves and the Mark of Death were destroyed. It's unlikely that even the average priest of the Vol church know anything about her either. In any case, the divine spells of this church's adepts, clerics, and paladins come from their faith and veneration of the "teachings" of the elves of the House of Vol, not from divinity of the lich called "Vol" (who's name is Erandis). The Aerenal elves gain divine spells from their postitive-energy "deathless", but those walking corpses aren't divine. Their Valenar cousins are much the same: the divine spellcasters of their ancestor-worship come from their faith... not from divine ancestors whose souls probably have gone to Doluurh. That's one of the great things about Eberron: clerics or even paladins can gain divine spells just from a concept, rather than having to worship a world-walking god. Even better, that concept won't show up and have "relations" with said priest as happens with a certain goddess of magic in the FR. Divine spells don't come from gods in Eberron... noone is even really sure that there are any gods, as they don't show themselves like they do in other settings. Vol is the only vol there ever was! there wasnt any blood of vol before she became a lich...!? and even if they dont know how she is, their worship goes "to" her..!?
Isran_Imrador 12-30-04, 08:23 AM	I know there was more that one vol but when i sayed it i meant E. d`Vol only was one! sorry about that. I take the point that most her followers dont know who she really is. So most of you do not think E. vol would have DR or quasi-deity status! Or is she powerfull enough to gain it by her own power..i would think no would be the answer to that as well....if one the other hand she manages to revive her house she might gain DR.... As for the keeper of the flame, its the flame that should have D. rank and it has! but she could be a proxy that gets some divine ranks from the flame... Have started to make a Rajah to keep in the shadow of my thrane campaign!
Sarlax 12-30-04, 12:44 PM	There's nothing in the books to indicate that divinity in Eberron actually works this way. Consider Rhashaak, the half-fiend black dragon that guards a fiendish prison in Q'Barra. He's worshipped by plenty of lizard folk, and he simply "hopes" that he can one day become a god from that. Remember, the very existence of gods is in question in Eberron. If anyone with enough faith can get spells (the corrupt, the exalted, the nontheistic religions) and there's no direct evidence for gods ... well, how do they even know if gods exist? Simple worship or veneration isn't enough - heck, the Undying should all be gods if that's how it worked in Eberron.
DolArrah 12-30-04, 03:19 PM	*Sigh* The Blood of Vol don't worship the Vol house, or at least very few do, but rather the idea that blood is immortality and blood is in everyone. The other gods supposedly tricked mortals, an Adam and Eve thing, and it is through blood and undead (although a smaller % worship the undead part) we can acheive the immortality we orriginally had. It is only when we reach the inner ranks do we realize that Vol wants to become a god herself, she kills people for fun or profit, or for revenge 2600 years old, and that she and most of her closest servants ae undead. The evil that the Blood of Vol is stereotyped as is only because it is under her name, and only because Karrn has so vehemently rejected it. Vol could have a divine rank, but her power is not absolute, like the Rakshasa's were, and she has no special, or abnormal (for liches), powers so she wouldn't be a prime candidate for godhood. The lord of blades is just a convincing warforged, nothing else. I would consider giving the Lord of Blades levels in Evangelist (not sure if that is how you spell it), in the Complete Divine. Peace, Dol Arrah
Edymnion 12-30-04, 06:04 PM	Well, there are a few "real" gods in Eberron, but none that the humans know about. The Dragons worship several ascended dragon gods, who most likely are the ones that took the Ascended Dragon PrC out of the Draconomicon that grants a Divine Rank as the 20th level ability. But yeah, in Eberron, if you believe strongly enough that your shoes are gods, you will be able to cast divine spells (I would suggest the Travel domain :P ). The shoes are not gods, but that doesn't stop a worshipper of your shoes from casting divine spells.
ThiefofSouls 11-16-06, 11:58 AM	Also quote SoX, there is a magic item/airtifact there, I think its named Sanguineus Tome(SoX page 153), the description of the item states that upon a deep study of the tome one comes to notice that it contains the roots to the cult that today is known as the Blood of Vol. (Don't have my copy on hands right now for specific name and pages, but I'll edit it as soon as I get home if nobody beats me to it.) And then again we come back to what people stated before, its not Erandis d'Vol who is worshipe, it's not house vol at all, its the philosophy that has been passed down by the house for generations and that states that blood is power and that the gods are to blame for all evil that afflicts someone. Also, I would like to call teh bold parts into your attention again... see them? House Vol... Its philosophy... blood is power... Sum it up and when Erandis "founded" it as an official religion you got a pretty name... Blood of Vol. Remember the dragon's would try to destroy her on sight, no dragonmarked house would want to deal with her and the elves of Aerenal would be pleased to destroy her for good, so she wouldn't be such a fool to name the religion after herself.(Or maybe she would... I may be wrong, but this is what seens the most logical) Edit: Corrected the name of the tome, its not Tome of Blood, its Sanguineus Tome, also added the page where its in for easier reference.
Azazyll 11-16-06, 12:47 PM	I think the blood of vol is probably a lot like the undying court, but undead oriented. Meaning no individual within it comes close to divine rank. Erandris could be seen similarly to an ascendent councilor (although she is nowhere near as powerful or otherworldly). There were probably a lot of undead Vol elves much much older than her, on par with the court (although smaller as they were only one line and its followers), who were destroyed in the civil war, leaving only Erandris. Which would have been the second time the teachings had almost been wiped out, since they've basically come out and said that the line of Vol got it's ideas from the Drow of the Ring of Storms, the Qabalrin. I'd also argue that the idea of "ascendent dragons" shouldn't directly equate with the Ascendent Dragon prestige class, or whatever it's called. I would imagine them more as the draconic myths that explain the origin of their gods from a time of myth and legend (100,000 years ago, when they beat off the Rajas, is a long time even for dragons). It's really innapropriate to the setting for any individual, even a dragon, to become divine, in my opinion. It takes the mystery out of divinity and death that eberron finally put back in to D&D
Edymnion 11-16-06, 03:20 PM	It's really innapropriate to the setting for any individual, even a dragon, to become divine, in my opinion. It takes the mystery out of divinity and death that eberron finally put back in to D&DActually, Keith has said several times that he would consider several of the bound rajas to have divine rank. Just because something has divine rank does not make it a god, just unbelievably powerful. True gods in Eberron do not have stats (if they exist at all), because they are not things that can be killed by mortals, or even interacted with. All divine rank does is make something incredibly powerful and difficult to kill, but they are still killable.
ThiefofSouls 11-16-06, 03:52 PM	Actually, Keith has said several times that he would consider several of the bound rajas to have divine rank. Just because something has divine rank does not make it a god, just unbelievably powerful. True gods in Eberron do not have stats (if they exist at all), because they are not things that can be killed by mortals, or even interacted with. All divine rank does is make something incredibly powerful and difficult to kill, but they are still killable. Yeah that's the most I've came to use my Deities and Demigods book for, the true gods are beyond the reach of mortals or even their comprehension, the "Deities" Stated on that book are in only ways the god chose to show themselfs to mortal, you could defeat it and destroy it, but that would buy the true god anger and no other god would stand in the way of your punishiment, oh wait... he is a god... he can just say you never existed. Then again... I'm not found of the idea of my players killing gods because they were the real power behind that conspiracy to wipe all life.(This statament is non Eberronian)
Azazyll 11-16-06, 04:13 PM	I officially smack my own forehead. Should have thought of Keith's comments on the Rajas. Still, I'd be more inclined to think of divine rank as sort of an uber buff-up-the-monster template, rather than indicative of the kind of things it goes with in most settings. In which case giving Vol a divine rank might be appropriate, but only as a plot she is hatching, through an eldritch machine, for instance. Not as a result of worship. If your heroes are epic it might be a neat way to end the campaign. Run in on Vol as the transformation is only part way complete, when she's still only at rank 0 or 1, and still, in some bizarre measure, killable to really overpowered heroes.
Edymnion 11-16-06, 04:33 PM	See, thats exactly the sort of basis one needs for a nice epic level challenge. People start turning up totally drained of blood, and it seems like vampires are to blame. But then, a few people turn into dozens, then hundreds, possibly thousands as people all of Khovaire turn up dead, totally drained. The party finally learns that Vol is making her final assault on the uncaring gods, by using the power of blood to let her ascend to godhood herself. Can the PCs stop her from taking any more victims, and becoming the lich queen god? Or a better question, should they even try to stop her in the first place? Could she really fufill the ultimate goal of the Blood of Vol, destroying death itself and allowing everyone to benefit from immortality?
lordalm 11-21-06, 05:11 PM	I am going to assume that folks have read Faiths of Eberron by this point. So I am going to bring up an intersting point. E. D'Vol was lichified by her mommy. So does that make her a lich for real? I can't recall off the top of my head wether her stats are out there. She did turn Kasius into a Vampire. So it would seem she has some powers of necrotic transformation at least. Now its cannon that a mark won't work for undead. So that leaves her being a traditional lich or something else with a lich template applied. So maybe she's a cleric of the religion that everyone now knows as the BoV (which to me is a rub in the faces of the elves and the dragons as to her continued existence). She must have the rescources to screen her existence from both the dragons and the elves, unless the island she lives on does it for her naturally....
Edymnion 11-23-06, 03:40 PM	Actually, as a half-dragon, Erandis cannot be a Lich, as the Lich template only applies to humanoids. As a Dragon type, she would have to be a Dracolich.
lordalm 11-23-06, 04:06 PM	Actually, as a half-dragon, Erandis cannot be a Lich, as the Lich template only applies to humanoids. As a Dragon type, she would have to be a Dracolich. That is a seperate template then? Wasn't aware of that. Where would the rules be at?
Edymnion 11-23-06, 05:05 PM	That is a seperate template then? Wasn't aware of that. Where would the rules be at?The Dracolich template is in the Draconomicon. Its essentially the same as the lich template, but allows for things like breath weapons and fear auras (which a dragon would normally lose when they became undead).
lordalm 11-23-06, 05:08 PM	The Dracolich template is in the Draconomicon. Its essentially the same as the lich template, but allows for things like breath weapons and fear auras (which a dragon would normally lose when they became undead). Ohh, crunchy and yet another reason for me to buy that book. Curses.....:banghead:
strange_person 11-24-06, 09:31 AM	Also, it explains how E. d'Vol could have been turned into a lich by someone else. As a nifty side effect, it also means she needs reptilian remains to respawn.
beezl 11-26-06, 09:16 PM	Vol is the only vol there ever was! there wasnt any blood of vol before she became a lich...!? and even if they dont know how she is, their worship goes "to" her..!? That is not true. Vol was the family name of ONE of the families that had the mark of death. there are plenty of references to both in Dragonmarked and Secrets of Xendrik. That said, i do believe Vol distorts and manipulates the worship of the Blood of Vol to her benifit.
Pinky's brain 11-26-06, 09:23 PM	Spells are never withheld in Eberron. Giving anything a divine rank higher than 0 in Eberron would be a huge mistake ... the ability of PCs to be the ultimate forces of good (or evil) in the world goes right down the toilet once anything with divine rank 1+ comes around, only gods can take on gods (epic doesn't help).
lordalm 11-27-06, 10:54 AM	Spells are never withheld in Eberron. Giving anything a divine rank higher than 0 in Eberron would be a huge mistake ... the ability of PCs to be the ultimate forces of good (or evil) in the world goes right down the toilet once anything with divine rank 1+ comes around, only gods can take on gods (epic doesn't help). Which would be why allowing Raja's to wake up would be a bad idea as they are supposedly possessing of that lvl of power according to some previous posts about KB ideas for them....
Logos7 11-29-06, 02:42 PM	Spells can be withheld No where does it say that a god will give followers who intentionally break their code of conduct or simular set of ideas/causes.or actions spells. ECS does change the idea that people must be within one aliignment step of their gawd. If one does things that are within the tenates of a good religion but are evil, one retains one's spellcasting Ie: the Lycanthrrope purge is consistant with the teaching of fighting and stopping evil, but it is not good in the killing of innocent shifters and such so if you break what's expected of you, you can loose spell casting But if one does things that are outside the tenates of your religion, Ie a silver flame cleric that goes arround killing angels for no reason, isn't gonna keep his spell casting.Kind of like how Keith says that Evil Clerics of the SF still Turn undead, because commanding them isn't something that the SF approves of regardless of alignment. Logos
ArcTan 11-29-06, 02:49 PM	In Eberron, there *are no* gods, at least not any on the material plane. The mechanic of the Divine Rank doesn't even equate to godhood. However, many *believe* that ascension is possible, through acquiring worshippers or something similar. The founder of the Library of Korranberg believed he could become an Aspect of Aureon by creating the Library and making it acknowledged as a universal storehouse of learning. The black dragon in the Explorer's Handbook believes that if he can be a god to the lizardfolk who serve him and gain enough power this way he will ascend to divinity and be freed from his eternal vigil over the fiends he guards. Vol herself believes that if she succeeds in her scheming she will somehow become a deity. Etc.
ArcTan 11-29-06, 02:53 PM	Spells can be withheld No where does it say that a god will give followers who intentionally break their code of conduct or simular set of ideas/causes.or actions spells. ECS does change the idea that people must be within one aliignment step of their gawd. If one does things that are within the tenates of a good religion but are evil, one retains one's spellcasting Ie: the Lycanthrrope purge is consistant with the teaching of fighting and stopping evil, but it is not good in the killing of innocent shifters and such so if you break what's expected of you, you can loose spell casting But if one does things that are outside the tenates of your religion, Ie a silver flame cleric that goes arround killing angels for no reason, isn't gonna keep his spell casting.Kind of like how Keith says that Evil Clerics of the SF still Turn undead, because commanding them isn't something that the SF approves of regardless of alignment. Logos That's breaking your faith. That's different from spells being withheld. In Forgotten Realms, a deity can consciously choose to withhold spells from a worshipper for *any* reason, regardless of how faithful the worshipper is. (Deities don't often do this, because even the greatest deities have limited awareness of what all their clerics are doing and where they are at any given time. More to the point, a deity that gets in the habit of withholding spells risks losing faith and worshippers.) This doesn't happen in Eberron. In Eberron, losing your clerical abilities is the result of *you* having a change in your faith and rejecting it, which is entirely a free-willed process on your part (and exactly the same way a cleric of Mystra can lose his powers in Forgotten Realms without Mystra ever becoming aware of it, if he simply stops following the tenets of Mystra and stops believing in her ways). In Forgotten Realms, as in Eberron, a cleric can do what she *believes* to be her god's will and still go against it. In Eberron, however, there's no mechanism for stopping this -- a Cleric of the Silver Flame who believes she's being faithful to the Silver Flame's cause can slip all the way to a Chaotic Evil alignment and do all kinds of bad things as long as her belief system about what she's doing is self-consistent. In FR a well-meaning worshipper of Helm who starts going astray and attracts the god's attention could have the god purposely revoke her divine spellcasting for a period of time, and then when she inquired what was going on, Helm could appear to her through a vision or an oracle and tell her what she was doing wrong. This doesn't happen in Eberron -- thus, in Eberron, corruption, heresy and schism are far more likely in a religion.
Majoru Oakheart 12-08-06, 07:11 PM	Spells can be withheld No where does it say that a god will give followers who intentionally break their code of conduct or simular set of ideas/causes.or actions spells. ECS does change the idea that people must be within one aliignment step of their gawd. If one does things that are within the tenates of a good religion but are evil, one retains one's spellcasting Actually, the point of Eberron is that there ARE no gods. Or at least no way to prove there are gods. If you completely break the tennents of your religion, you still get spells. If you stop worshipping your god and worship your shoes, you still get spells. If you cast a spell to talk to your god, you instead get an outsider of some sort. who ALSO has never spoken to or seen your god. In Eberron, the fact that there are gods at all requires faith, because the gods have never shown any sign that they are around.
McFrankPatrick 12-08-06, 08:02 PM	Actually, the point of Eberron is that there ARE no gods. Or at least no way to prove there are gods. If you completely break the tennents of your religion, you still get spells. If you stop worshipping your god and worship your shoes, you still get spells. True, to a point. At all times you must believe that what you are worshipping is truly divine, and that your actions can be reconciled with the dogma of your faith as you perceive it. So you can stretch the tenets of your faith, but grievously abandoning them constitutes a sort of crisis of faith, and you lose the ability to cast spells (until you resolve your faith issues). As for worshipping articles of clothing, yes it may be possible. And you might get spells for it. But you would have to be a pretty unbalanced individual to honestly, genuinely believe that your shoes were a god, and you would have plenty of other problems on your hands if that truly is the case. Of course, clerics and sages of the established faiths in Eberron would draw attention to the similarities between your shoe faith and worship of the Traveler, and maintain that you were in fact worshipping an aspect of that deity:rolleyes: . Them's the breaks!
OneWinged4ngel 12-08-06, 09:53 PM	does Vol and Lord of blades have divine rank? the do grant divine spell! Vol demigod rank 2 Lord of Blades rank 1 Any opinions? No. They do not and should not have a divine rank. No, they do not grant divine spell. Even if they did something like that it would be granting divine spells, not spell.
Edymnion 12-08-06, 11:52 PM	Of course, clerics and sages of the established faiths in Eberron would draw attention to the similarities between your shoe faith and worship of the Traveler, and maintain that you were in fact worshipping an aspect of that deity:rolleyes: . Them's the breaks!Yeah, but does the Traveler grant the Travel AND Protection domains? ;) Heh, you know, I'm glad to see my Cult of the Shoe is still alive and well. :D
Quasidork 12-09-06, 03:10 AM	I was thinking of giving the shoe god the following Domains: Travel Protection Stinky I figure that a new deity of such tremendous power as my shoe, It'd get a "new" Domain. And for all those who tried to tell me I worshipped "The Traveler" I'd say to them, "I can see my shoe, I can hear my shoe as it strikes the ground, I can feel the warmth my shoe provides me by lovingly protecting my feet. I can even smell my shoe, as it absorbs my sweet to make it apart of it. When was the last time you could say any of that about your deity?"
McFrankPatrick 12-09-06, 03:25 AM	Hmmm . . . so now we are left with the original question. Is it your belief in the shoe that grants it divine power, which it then bestows upon you? Or by believing something so wholeheartedly are you somehow tapping in to some fundamental power of the multiverse that grants power to all divine casters? In other words: Shouldn't the Shoe have divine rank?
lordalm 12-09-06, 02:30 PM	:rolleyes: :nonono: :ton: :thumbsdow
Manyfist 12-10-06, 09:22 PM	Take your Left Shoe... convince your self that its a diety, maybe do the same with several other people just for safe measures, and feel your clericness. Diety: Left Shoe(Immediate Diety) Portfolios: Anything you want Domains: Anything Alignment: Anything Symbol: A Human Foot:D Wallah you now have Cleric powers from your own shoe. Of course in FR you would of been stuck down by real deities, not so in Eberron.
Edymnion 12-11-06, 12:39 AM	Hmmm . . . so now we are left with the original question. Is it your belief in the shoe that grants it divine power, which it then bestows upon you? Or by believing something so wholeheartedly are you somehow tapping in to some fundamental power of the multiverse that grants power to all divine casters? In other words: Shouldn't the Shoe have divine rank?I actually have, behind the scenes, in my games that *ALL* magic comes from the three progenitor wyrms (Eberron, Siberys, and Khyber). All nature magic comes from Eberron, all "good" magic from Siberys, and all "evil" magic from Khyber. Study, force of personality, faith, and all the rest are just the trappings of how the mind centers itself on the magic around it, and learns to harness that power.
strange_person 12-11-06, 12:59 AM	It's been established that Rakshasa Rajahs have divine rank. Who do they grant spells to? Who worships them? I propose that, in Eberron, "divine rank" is just another kind of power, and "ability to grant spells to divine spellcasters" is not included with it. Eberron has different rules than other D&D settings; for one, it's got AP. For another, divine spellcasting isn't as restricted by alignment. Perhaps, as a corrolary to that second one, divine spellcasting isn't "granted" at all; it just happens. You say the words and do the dance and brandish your symbol and fire comes out of the sky. Nobody really knows where it comes from, just like nobody really knows where your loyalties lie. Maybe you think it comes from a man with a beard who lives up in the sky; maybe you think First Tower is actually older than the foundations of Sharn. It doesn't matter. What realy matters is, will it enhance versimilitude and the overall enjoyability of the game? There's nothing to suggest that the lich Erandis d'Vol is a power on the same level as a Rakshasa Raja, so I'd say she doesn't have Divine Rank. You can give it to her in your game, but don't come crying to me when the players start to ask "If Vol is so powerful, why bother with intrigue? Instead of all this crap about the Emerald Claw being suppressed by Kaius III, why doesn't she just teleport into the throne room and stake him, then conquer the Five Nations all by herself?" Admittedly, there are some interesting possible answers to this one, but that's a whole other topic.
(Psi)SeveredHead 12-14-06, 07:43 PM	IMO, deities shouldn't have rules. IMO if you have to use rules, they should depend on the setting. For instance, in Dark Sun, sorcerer kings are worshipped by their templars as deities, but they're not deities. They don't get deific powers, but being 20th-level mages/20th-level psions who can't die of old age, it's not too difficult to see why people might think they're deities. IMO if it can interact with PCs, it shouldn't be a deity. The Silver Flame in the cathedral isn't a deity, it's a conduit. (The actual Silver Flame, which happens to be symbolized by a flame, isn't actually there.) Similarly, Vol isn't a deity, otherwise the PCs couldn't defeat her without some weird plot hook. The only special case I've seen is the Undying Court; an individual councillor is a challenge, but the whole court together may be able to do more than grant spells. (Maybe that's how they were able to fend off dragons. Of course, it could be they powered their clerics to do the hard work.)
Mathus 12-15-06, 12:23 AM	I am all for the thought that your enemies are always a level or two ahead of you. If your PCs go Epic, make E' d'Vol Epic +1. If you really want to make it a challenge make her divine. If I recall correctly Divine can be killed by one rank below them. Can you imagine the challenge of a campaign where E d'Vol hits deity level as the PCs get some really epic classes. They you let them know the only way to stop her is to contact another deity level creature and convince them to "loan" you some of their power? Do you try adn convice the Deatless to assist you? Maybe you trick a Lord of Dust into fighting her right before you re-bind him. Or even crazier you go Xoriat in some strange pact of madness. Ooo talking about pacts, I bet the quori would hate to see a deity level power monger try to dominate Khorivare before they do. I am sure they would help players defeat her as they don't want to see any power centers, good or bad develope. My response is the reason epic or divine class power groups do NOT take over is that they fight each other. And sometime it takes the assistance of the players to help keep taht balance. I look forward to the epic challenges my players will face at 23+ level. So make E d'Vol any level or epic class, or even divine if you want. I just wouldn't make her that powerful until the PCs are there to stop her.
JulesCARV 12-15-06, 03:05 AM	Does Erandis really want to become a deity? She wants to revive the Mark of Death, and restore the living flesh of the House Vol, and thinks that mortals can defeat death some day, but becoming a deity, per se, seems to be rather blasphemous to her own beliefs. I was under the impression that she was a fairly pious believer in the Blood of Vol. Of course, if she is just in it for her own sake, wanting to become a deity, and doesn't give a damn about the ancient faith of the Blood of Vol, that at least explains why she's a wizard, and not a cleric as you'd expect a religious leader to be.
ASuperHero 12-15-06, 10:07 PM	Actually, as a half-dragon, Erandis cannot be a Lich, as the Lich template only applies to humanoids. As a Dragon type, she would have to be a Dracolich. Actually, she would have had the type Dragon (augmented humanoid), and she would have qualified for the Lich template.
(Psi)SeveredHead 12-16-06, 03:29 PM	Actually, she would have had the type Dragon (augmented humanoid), and she would have qualified for the Lich template. I don't think it really matters either way. It's my belief that faith gives the spellcaster power, not the object/person/deity that they actually worship. In many cases, this makes the "deity" just a symbol. Vol is just the current symbol of the Blood of Vol faith; if she were permanently destroyed tomorrow, her clerics might keep getting spells until they become aware of her permanent destruction. When it comes to "admittedly evil" Silver Flame clerics, they believe they're worshipping the "evil spirit" portion of the Silver Flame, which is why they still hold faith. Others, like those who led the Lycanthrope Purges, probably interpreted their faith to destroy the lycanthropes, and might have an "E" written on their virtual character sheets, but they won't believe they're evil.
ChimericalWolf 12-16-06, 03:36 PM	It's my belief that faith gives the spellcaster power, not the object/person/deity that they actually worship. In many cases, this makes the "deity" just a symbol. Vol is just the current symbol of the Blood of Vol faith; if she were permanently destroyed tomorrow, her clerics might keep getting spells until they become aware of her permanent destruction. Actually, from what I understand, most Clerics of the Blood don't even know Erandis is still alive. They believe in a sort of self-empowerment that House Vol was the first to embrace. As I understand it, having not read up on the Blood for a while.
Dragom 03-17-07, 01:55 PM	Spells can be withheld Only if the Cleric "Believes" himself to have broken with his faith.
ArcTan 03-17-07, 02:14 PM	Actually, the point of Eberron is that there ARE no gods. Or at least no way to prove there are gods. If you completely break the tennents of your religion, you still get spells. Well, no. I mean, this is theoretically possible, but since divine magic is powered by faith, if you completely renounce everything your faith teaches, you lose your powers. Your powers come from your own conviction that you're serving a god or a cause or a principle. Completely turning your back on the ideas of what you're taught requires taking up a *new* faith. People like Cardinal Krozen, and the idea of being cross-aligned with your religion, have to do with self-delusion, hypocrisy and doublethink, all of which are quite common in real-world religion. But that's not the same as saying you can openly serve demons in the Silver Flame and still be a Purified, or that you can openly spurn the concept of honor and still serve Dol Arrah. If you stop worshipping your god and worship your shoes, you still get spells. Let's not take this too far. The reason you don't worship your shoes in Eberron is because there's no reason to. Faith is real, honest belief, and it's hard to really, honestly believe that there's something about your shoe that makes it worthy of worship. If there is, then it's probably because you're attributing some kind of spiritual quality or ideal to the thing you're worshipping, so much so that you could credibly claim that it's that *idea* you're really worshipping that fuels your faith. People in the Blood of Vol don't worship the lich Erandis d'Vol, they worship the idea of internal power and overcoming the laws of nature through will. People in the Silver Flame don't really, as such, worship the giant silvery light show in Flamekeep, but what's behind that -- the duty of all living things to suppress and bind the corruption inherent in the world (the "universal binding force" of the Flame). People who worship Olladra don't really worship some chick with a short skirt and a dice cup as much as they worship the idea of taking joy in life and being optimistic in all situations.
ArcTan 03-17-07, 02:18 PM	It's been established that Rakshasa Rajahs have divine rank. Who do they grant spells to? Who worships them? I propose that, in Eberron, "divine rank" is just another kind of power, and "ability to grant spells to divine spellcasters" is not included with it. This is exactly what Keith Baker has said, which is why he avoids using the term "Divine Rank" for what rajahs and daelkyr lords have. They have the equivalent Salient Divine Abilities and Divine Immunities of a deity, but they do *not* technically have DvR. DvR doesn't exist in Eberron, and neither do its most important concepts -- that you have to have a certain number of worshippers to have it, that it lets you grant divine spells to worshippers, that it grants you control over a divine "portfolio". Eberron has different rules than other D&D settings; for one, it's got AP. For another, divine spellcasting isn't as restricted by alignment. Perhaps, as a corrolary to that second one, divine spellcasting isn't "granted" at all; it just happens. You say the words and do the dance and brandish your symbol and fire comes out of the sky. Nobody really knows where it comes from, just like nobody really knows where your loyalties lie. Maybe you think it comes from a man with a beard who lives up in the sky; maybe you think First Tower is actually older than the foundations of Sharn. It doesn't matter. What realy matters is, will it enhance versimilitude and the overall enjoyability of the game? There's nothing to suggest that the lich Erandis d'Vol is a power on the same level as a Rakshasa Raja, so I'd say she doesn't have Divine Rank. You can give it to her in your game, but don't come crying to me when the players start to ask "If Vol is so powerful, why bother with intrigue? Instead of all this crap about the Emerald Claw being suppressed by Kaius III, why doesn't she just teleport into the throne room and stake him, then conquer the Five Nations all by herself?" Keith Baker has come right out and said that even though Erandis hasn't been statted, it is a known fact that she has less than 20 character levels (and should generally be run in a campaign as being a reasonable challenge for the PCs, not an impossible one). She definitely doesn't have the rajahs' effective DvR at all. The Lord of Blades is another mortal being who's frequently worshipped, and his official writeup (not binding on DMs, of course) puts him as a 15th-level character. Definitely no DvR there either.
ArcTan 03-17-07, 02:20 PM	IMO, deities shouldn't have rules. IMO if you have to use rules, they should depend on the setting. For instance, in Dark Sun, sorcerer kings are worshipped by their templars as deities, but they're not deities. They don't get deific powers, but being 20th-level mages/20th-level psions who can't die of old age, it's not too difficult to see why people might think they're deities. IMO if it can interact with PCs, it shouldn't be a deity. The Silver Flame in the cathedral isn't a deity, it's a conduit. (The actual Silver Flame, which happens to be symbolized by a flame, isn't actually there.) Similarly, Vol isn't a deity, otherwise the PCs couldn't defeat her without some weird plot hook. The only special case I've seen is the Undying Court; an individual councillor is a challenge, but the whole court together may be able to do more than grant spells. (Maybe that's how they were able to fend off dragons. Of course, it could be they powered their clerics to do the hard work.) I would interpret the "divinity" of the Court as giving the Court DvR-like powers when they act as a whole, and saying that their presence has allowed the population of Aerenal to develop many more high-level Clerics and positive-energy centered PrCs (like the Sacred Purifier) than would otherwise be possible, but that they don't grant divine spells or actually act as a god any more than anyone else.
Einherjar_Lucian 03-18-07, 01:48 PM	I actually have, behind the scenes, in my games that *ALL* magic comes from the three progenitor wyrms (Eberron, Siberys, and Khyber). All nature magic comes from Eberron, all "good" magic from Siberys, and all "evil" magic from Khyber. Study, force of personality, faith, and all the rest are just the trappings of how the mind centers itself on the magic around it, and learns to harness that power. I agree, here. The three are the source of the magical power. Spellcasters (and, likely, Psionicists too) are simply individuals who tap into the Power Cosmic in one way or another. Consider in this case, then, that the Soverign Host and the Dark Six, and even the Silver Flame, are pools or fragments of this supply of energy which have attained their own consciousness. They may have initially been created or just influenced by initial, ancient worshippers, but over time, they have gained a momentum or personality of their own. Mortals would become a "god" simply by the fact that they have amassed enough ability to tap into the ambient magical power that they are unmatched by lesser beings. They're no more a divine being than you or I, but they attain such influence over a fragment of the power source that it becomes attuned to them in much the same way that the Sovereign Host were "born". This doesn't give the "god" the ability to grant spells. In fact, it doesn't make the "god" a deity at all; this "god" is simply a conduit to a power which has aligned itself to the concepts that the worshippers believe in. This fits especially well with the Silver Flame. The "Voice of the Flame" is simply that... the remaining consciousness of Tira Miron, the couatl, and the demon lord, who are bound to the Flame. The real actions they take are limited only to influence: a whisper here, a nudge there. This is not to say that just because the "gods" have a consciousness of sorts means they're aware of, or even care about, the mortals. Or, rather, that they're in any position to do anything to help or hinder their mortal worshippers. Or, I could be completely wrong. You decide!
mhacdebhandia 03-18-07, 05:34 PM	Erandis d'Vol is "nothing more" than a powerful lich who is manipulating the religion of the Blood of Vol from behind the scenes. She is not a deity. She is not an object of worship for the vast majority of the faithful - at most, she appears as a mythical Queen in certain scriptures. We can probably assume that those who are aware she exists and serve her directly revere her as a divine or at least semi-divine figure - but that would be because she's a powerful champion of the faith, not just because her surname is d'Vol. The Blood of Vol, as a faith, is about the inherent divine power of living mortal blood and the struggle to overcome Death. It's based on the beliefs of the elven line of Vol, which gave rise to the dragonmarked house which bore the Mark of Death. Those beliefs are derived from even older philosophies developed by the elven necromancers of the Qabalrin civilisation in Xen'drik - the ones who were destroyed by the fall of the Heart of Siberys.
Daydreamer 03-18-07, 06:40 PM	1. No because shes not a god. 2. She doesnt grant spells, much of the blood of vol is completely indepedent of vol, and believes that undeath is the path to divinity. IN fact, i believe the religion existed before vol under another name and was transoformed by her for convience. 3. You can worship ANYTHING in Eberron and get spells. Technically according to Eberron you can worship a tea kettle and get spells as long as you really believe it. Does that make the tea kettle a god? That third issue is one of the few things about eberron i dont like. I am not saying the gods should exist, but there should be some sort of referant for the granting of spells-it always made the world metaphysically bankrupt if not. ( in MY opinion-you can of course think differently).
mhacdebhandia 03-18-07, 06:55 PM	On that third issue, Daydreamer - I think it only makes sense to require that independent religions have some sort of truly "metaphysical" or "transcendent" component to their belief structure, because that sort of thing is actually pretty necessary to religion in the real world. By that, I don't mean that all religions have to propose the existence of a spiritual dimension to the world, but they do uniformly propose that there is some reality or set of principles or truth which transcends the world we live in, and it would be a clever (or smart-arse) player indeed who could propose a form of transcendent importance to a teakettle.
strange_person 03-18-07, 11:42 PM	Well, obviously, it's a microcosom of the universe. It even comes with some nifty apocalyptic imagery. In the middle, there's water and herbs (which really is most of the Dragon Between; look at any habitable planet from space, and chances are everything you can see is clouds, water, and green). Up above, there's mysterious stuff; folks what go up there don't come back. Down below, there's a hard mineral shell, and then fire. The fire leaks up through the minerals, boils the water, and then the whole contents of the middle section get poured off and put somewhere else (a teacup, or the Afterlife, depending on how you take it), which has no fire underneath and is nicely decorated and generally more pleasant. Milk and sugar rain down from above, and the whole thing is left to recover from the torment of the fire; then, once that gets boring, it all rejoins the Creator. I could picture a religion like that. It would probably be very low-key, with lots of sitting around in coffee shops and talking about the metaphoric signifigance of "one lump or two," and the occasional megalomaniac Catclysm Mage trying to dig a hole deep enough to boil the ocean.
Daydreamer 03-19-07, 02:18 AM	I dont mean that they CLAIM such a component is there, but that it only makes sense IF such a component is there. Otherwise-tea kettle god. I will remark that Keith baker once specifically remarked that the rajahs cant grant spells but are as powerful as gods. I have no doubt many rajahs are worshipped, its even hinted at in secrets of sarlona that a certain barbarian tribe worships them. in conclusion, vol doesnt have divine ranks.
The White Sorcerer 03-19-07, 03:44 AM	2. She doesnt grant spells, much of the blood of vol is completely indepedent of vol, and believes that undeath is the path to divinity. Clarification: The Seekers believe that blood is divine, and strive for true immortality. Undead are beings that can no longer reach true immortality, but have sacrificed their divinity to teach those that come after them.
strange_person 03-19-07, 03:48 AM	So sentient undead are the Volite equivalent of Bodhisattvas?
The White Sorcerer 03-19-07, 03:50 AM	So sentient undead are the Volite equivalent of Bodhisattvas? Considering how little I know about Bodhisattvas, the only thing I can say is: Maybe?
Nuclear_Buddha 03-21-07, 01:03 PM	Considering how little I know about Bodhisattvas, the only thing I can say is: Maybe? Allow me: yes. It can be looked at in such as fashion. They're martyrs and bodhisattva all rolled into one: They die for their faith (to become undead) and they forgo true immortality so that someday others might become truly immortal. Well, the true believers do, at least. I'm sure there are some that seek to become undead for cynical reasons.
The White Sorcerer 03-21-07, 01:35 PM	Here is, I think, a pretty convincing argument as to why Vol doesn't and shouldn't have divine ranks or be viewed as a deity by her followers: She's undead. According to the Blood of Vol, undead have lost their inner divinity.
strange_person 03-21-07, 01:48 PM	So, if she killed all the "real" gods and came back alive again, then would she have Rank?
The White Sorcerer 03-21-07, 06:29 PM	So, if she killed all the "real" gods and came back alive again, then would she have Rank? If she managed that, I would certainly have no objection about giving her divine rank. Good luck trying to find, much less kill, the "real" gods, though.
strange_person 03-21-07, 07:12 PM	Well, if you're willing to accept my contributions to http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683655 then it would be a simple matter of finding and assasinating some gods in some place where they're not hiding in fear of the Mark Allergy. Once you've got 'em on the ropes, one of the Faerunian gods might be willing to sell out the Sovereign Host's hideout in exchange for amnesty.
Daydreamer 03-22-07, 02:58 AM	presuming they exist.
The White Sorcerer 03-22-07, 08:40 AM	Well, if you're willing to accept my contributions to Let's assume that I am as willing to accept those contributions as I'm willing to accept the idea of all the major D&D continents on the same planet. That is, it might be a cool idea, but it's not really valid to base arguments on it.
Hellcow 03-22-07, 10:26 AM	It would be a clever (or smart-arse) player indeed who could propose a form of transcendent importance to a teakettle. I agree. The concept that in Eberron you can "worship anything" is really more of a game mechanic than anything else. It's saying that you can create small sects with unusual beliefs and have them receive divine power. However, the DM must approve any alternate religion, and should feel free to dismiss anything that seems frivilous. It's POSSIBLE that someone could come up with a religion where he believes HE is god and gain spells from it... if the DM believes that his relion is logical, internally consistent, and has a belief structure that suits the needs of the game. Domains must be justified; if I believe in "Me-ism", why does that come with the War and Death domains? A cleric can technically gain spells from any set of beliefs... but he can also LOSE his spells if he fails to follow his doctrine. Likewise, he can commune or atone - who does he believe is answering his spell or accepting his atonement? It doesn't have to be a god as such - but if he believes in Me-ism, under what circumstances could he lose his abilities, and how does he see commune working? Likewise, the whole point is that it takes a person of truly exceptional faith to start a new faith. There's no rules for this, because PCs are truly exceptional people. But there's a reason that you don't see scads of kettle-worship style faiths mentioned in the books - because it is easier to derive clerical powers from worship of one of the major religions than to start your own. So where do spells come from? How is it taht a cleric who violates his faith loses spellcasting ability? Who responds to commune or atonement? The key is that in Eberron, there's no way to know with 100% certainty. But SOMETHING answers. Some force strips the cleric of power, and returns the power on atonement. A few possibilities: Gods do exist. The amazing number of cultures that worship variations of the Sovereign Host, using similar names and symbols for their gods, along with that fact that it's easier to gain divine power by worshipping a Sovereign than by worshipping a shoe, suggests that there is some truth to the beliefs of the Sovereigns. These gods provide power to other faiths. As someone suggested on another thread, the Lord of Blades doesn't have divine rank, but some people worship him and gain spells. But what if those spells actually come from the Traveler? The Traveler is a god of both artifice (giving a connection to the warforged) and chaos. Perhaps it enjoys empowering this little faith and letting the warforged BELIEVE their lord is a god, because of the chaos it will cause in the future. All divine magic is drawn from Siberys. Regardless of belief, Siberys is the ultimate source of power... and there's no reason SIBERYS can't be a sentient force. Why it chooses to play the role of a hundred different divinities, why it enforces the codes of each, that's a mystery - but it does. Gods are an invention of the mortal psyche, and exist as concepts in the collective unconscious. They have no physical existence, but are nonetheless forces with sentience, capable of drawing on the power of Siberys to empower their followers. By this theory, mortals create their gods, which is why its easier to gain power from a major faith than to create your own. And by this theory, the Lord of Blades IS a god - but he's also a mortal, and the god and mortal are two entirely separate entities. The worship of the Lord of Blades has created a divine avatar of the LoB on this metaphysical level, but the mortal LoB has no contact with it or control over it; it is the idealized form of the Lord of Blades as seen by his followers. If you WANT there to be gods in Eberron, make it so. The point of Eberron is that it's uncertain, that you can't MEET a god. But the cosmology can certainly support the idea that there are gods out there.
Hellcow 03-22-07, 10:33 AM	In response to the original question, others have hit it, but yes: The Blood of Vol doesn't worship Erandis d'Vol; as TWS has said, the fact that Erandis is undead actually means that she has LOST her divine spark, though she has also escaped death and can thus guide the living in their struggle. Clerics believe that their powers are drawn from the collective divinity of mortals, a force which should one day enable them to overcome death and the gods. Everyone has the divine spark within, but it's this gestalt force that is the source of power; when I commune, I am in touch with the essence of all mortals*. Not a "god" in the traditional sense, but rather like the Undying Court; the combined essence of a billion nascent divinities. * This is, of course, one possible interpretation. A follower of the Sovereign Host could say that the powers of the Blood of Vol are actually gifts of the Shadow and the Keeper... and maybe they're right. Only the DM knows the truth.
ChimericalWolf 03-22-07, 01:32 PM	...Erandis d'Vol... Well, I suppose you know what your doing enough that I'll ask instead of dictating.... Wasn't the 'd prefix the product of a much more modern view on dragonmarked families as socio-political entities? Established, in fact, long after the Wrath that befell Family Vol? Wouldn't Erandis probably view it as a silly modern trapping, and possibly be offended by the fact that these other Houses are powerful enough to be revered, while hers was destroyed? Baseline, is this an in-world social title, one that could be rejected by the character, like a Fighter or Paladin being called knight, or is this a sort of game-rules title to designate a Marked individual, like saying that, whether task-mage, witch, or fire-weaver, a Wizard is always a Wizard?
Hellcow 03-22-07, 01:53 PM	Wasn't the 'd prefix the product of a much more modern view on dragonmarked families as socio-political entities? Established, in fact, long after the Wrath that befell Family Vol? Actually, the precise source of the d' prefix has to my knowledge never been clearly defined. You are correct in that it is a social custom associated with marked members of the Dragonmarked Houses, and that Erandis' birth and the destruction of the Line of Vol predates the social customs of the twelve. HOWEVER, Erandis has been established as using the d' prefix in canon sources going all the way back to the ECS (page 228). From this, it could be construed that the d' prefix was a custom invented in Aerenal and carried to Khorvaire by House Phiarlan, later adopted by the houses of the Twelve. Essentially, I personally don't care if Erandis uses the d'; she's certainly not part of the modern house structure, and SHE doesn't care about their ways. You could certainly just call her "Lady Vol", or simply "Vol", and many do (though again, "The Blood of Vol" doesn't worship HER). Nonetheless, she has been established as having the d' in canon sources - thus it is possible that she does use it. If so, either the line of Vol started the practice, it's a curious coincidence, or she decided to adopt it later, just as someone could always call himself a knight without having been formally knighted.
strange_person 03-22-07, 06:07 PM	Does anyone call themself d'Tarkanan?
Hellcow 03-22-07, 06:25 PM	Does anyone call themself d'Tarkanan? I've never listed anyone as doing so. Halas didn't. The aberrants aren't part of the social structure of the Twelve; even if you pick up the idea that the Twelve adopted it from Phiarlan/Vol, the aberrants weren't orgainzed as a house However, I could certainly see an individual aberrant using the d' or calling himself a baron or viceroy as a form of mockery. "I'm Baron Bal d'Tarkanan." It's worth noting that the aberrant lords described to date favored descriptive names over standardized titles. The general public doesn't even know the true names of the Lady of the Plague or the Dreambreaker; Halas' consort didn't call herself "The Lady of the d'Plague." A key point on this is that the aberrants don't share the same common blood as the typical dragonmarked house. Thora Tavin has set up House Tarkanan as a mockery of a dragonmarked house, and many of its members take the Tarkanan name. But only a handful are actually related by blood, and we don't actually know if Halas had any relatives in the aberrant army.
strange_person 03-22-07, 06:30 PM	However, I could certainly see an individual aberrant using the d' or calling himself a baron or viceroy as a form of mockery. "I'm Baron Bal d'Tarkanan." That's pretty much what I was thinking. If some megalomaniacal mutant can do it, what's to stop the Lady Vol from a simmilar affectation?
Vharuck 03-22-07, 06:41 PM	This is exactly what Keith Baker has said, which is why he avoids using the term "Divine Rank" for what rajahs and daelkyr lords have. They have the equivalent Salient Divine Abilities and Divine Immunities of a deity, but they do *not* technically have DvR. DvR doesn't exist in Eberron, and neither do its most important concepts -- that you have to have a certain number of worshippers to have it, that it lets you grant divine spells to worshippers, that it grants you control over a divine "portfolio". Keith Baker has come right out and said that even though Erandis hasn't been statted, it is a known fact that she has less than 20 character levels (and should generally be run in a campaign as being a reasonable challenge for the PCs, not an impossible one). She definitely doesn't have the rajahs' effective DvR at all. The Lord of Blades is another mortal being who's frequently worshipped, and his official writeup (not binding on DMs, of course) puts him as a 15th-level character. Definitely no DvR there either. Pretty sure I remember seeing Erandis briefly mentioned in the ECS (the section on the Lhazaar Principalities, if I'm correct) as being a level 16 necromancer.
The White Sorcerer 03-22-07, 07:50 PM	Pretty sure I remember seeing Erandis briefly mentioned in the ECS (the section on the Lhazaar Principalities, if I'm correct) as being a level 16 necromancer. Close, she's just a wizard. At least you didn't think she was a cleric, which is really common.
strange_person 03-22-07, 10:14 PM	A necromancer is a wizard specializing in the school of necromancy.
mhacdebhandia 03-22-07, 10:48 PM	I believe the distinction being made is that Erandis is not specified as having specialised in necromancy.
ArcTan 03-22-07, 11:57 PM	So, if she killed all the "real" gods and came back alive again, then would she have Rank? ...No, because that's stupid and impossible. ETA: While the idea that killing a god zaps you with the god's magic god-spark and turns you into a new version of that god may have its place (Forgotten Realms, bad Piers Anthony novels, etc.), it is not at all a standard fantasy or mythology idea and has no place whatsoever in Eberron. Please don't drag it in.
ArcTan 03-22-07, 11:59 PM	Well, if you're willing to accept my contributions to http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683655 then it would be a simple matter of finding and assasinating some gods in some place where they're not hiding in fear of the Mark Allergy. Once you've got 'em on the ropes, one of the Faerunian gods might be willing to sell out the Sovereign Host's hideout in exchange for amnesty. And hey, if you accept my ridiculous home campaign's presuppositions, you can become a god by closing your eyes, clicking your heels three times and saying "There's no canon in houserules".
ArcTan 03-23-07, 12:01 AM	Here is, I think, a pretty convincing argument as to why Vol doesn't and shouldn't have divine ranks or be viewed as a deity by her followers: She's undead. According to the Blood of Vol, undead have lost their inner divinity. Isn't the ancient Qalbarin faith upon which the BoV based, though, ruled by a being known as the Queen of the Dead, with whom Vol might be identified by an ambitious iconographer? (Vol is not literally a goddess, but she would be seen as the greatest of all boddhisattvas, the harbinger who is destined to lead humanity to immortality.)
The White Sorcerer 03-23-07, 01:23 PM	A necromancer is a wizard specializing in the school of necromancy. Unlike Lady Vol, who isn't.
Isran_Imrador 03-26-07, 09:53 AM	Nonetheless, she has been established as having the d' in canon sources - thus it is possible that she does use it. If so, either the line of Vol started the practice, it's a curious coincidence, or she decided to adopt it later, just as someone could always call himself a knight without having been formally knighted. I will be sure to use this sometime... So this thread is still alive and well, how about that :D (3 years...) So when will we see a book about Aerenal, Keith? Isran
EvilClosetMonkey 04-01-07, 01:51 AM	OK, I've ran a search and frankly got tired of looking through ton's of stuff. If this has been addressed, I apologize. On the topic of godlyness, faith and spells. It's been said that spells aren't witheld, or not often. What about ressurect? Doesn't Dol'Uur *the realm*(spelling?) get a little mad about some upstart cleric continually snatching souls who should be resting? I mean, I joined the Eberron scene because it isn't the epic-spawning Faerun. And lo and behold, the first DM I play with since the change is allowing rez chuckin' like no tomorrow (yes, it was a poorly designed campaign). I was under the impression that, because the concept of Gods was ethearal at best, that the 'planes' had some 'authority'. Now keep in mind I don't mean authority as individual beings per-say, but forces beyond mortal comprehension with SOME rules to say the least. And I'm not neccessarily saying the spell would be refused, but maybe a cost would be in order (a Marut or somesuch?). If there is a link, pls direct me to it. Otherwise I'll start a thread. Tnx for your time.
strange_person 04-01-07, 01:55 AM	According to Hellcow, the Entrapping trait applies to dead people. Entrapped souls can't be directly rezzed, but can be retrieved and reinstalled by planar travel.
Daydreamer 04-01-07, 04:14 PM	OK, I've ran a search and frankly got tired of looking through ton's of stuff. If this has been addressed, I apologize. On the topic of godlyness, faith and spells. It's been said that spells aren't witheld, or not often. What about ressurect? Doesn't Dol'Uur *the realm*(spelling?) get a little mad about some upstart cleric continually snatching souls who should be resting? I mean, I joined the Eberron scene because it isn't the epic-spawning Faerun. And lo and behold, the first DM I play with since the change is allowing rez chuckin' like no tomorrow (yes, it was a poorly designed campaign). I was under the impression that, because the concept of Gods was ethearal at best, that the 'planes' had some 'authority'. Now keep in mind I don't mean authority as individual beings per-say, but forces beyond mortal comprehension with SOME rules to say the least. And I'm not neccessarily saying the spell would be refused, but maybe a cost would be in order (a Marut or somesuch?). If there is a link, pls direct me to it. Otherwise I'll start a thread. Tnx for your time. no campaign setting can cover for a dm violating its basic 'metaflavor'. Its an issue with the dm-or the players-or both-not the setting.
The White Sorcerer 04-01-07, 04:32 PM	Doesn't Dolurrh *the realm* get a little mad about some upstart cleric continually snatching souls who should be resting? That's what the plane has maruts for. Also, I wouldn't exactly call a 9th-level cleric an "upstart."
Battlesmith 04-02-07, 05:27 PM	Thanks to a few people on the boards here, I've actually come up with a sort of scenario regarding Vol taking more initiative in the way of gaining divine status. As is, there's no certainty regarding divinity in Eberron, which is what gave me the freedom to work with players that don't care to deviate from RAW, but still make Vol an even more imminent source of danger. Vol, being the behind the scenes leader of the Blood of Vol, doesn't actually get worshipped. Even if you went by FR canon, with the whole -worshippers equal godliness-, you wouldn't have Vol getting enough direct worship to gain any sort of rank. My idea was to alter the Death Giant 'Trap the Soul' ability (make it a little less powerful, with other changes thanks to feedback on the boards), and apply it in sort of a "Favored of Vol" status to a few major players in the EC. Shortly after this occurs, entire villages and caravans on the sparsely populated fringes of the nations start to turn up full of withered corpses. As the players get more involved, and higher into levels, the attacks strike closer into the hearts of the nations, and the souls stolen are eventually carried back to Vol. If enough are ever taken, Vol would theoretically have enough power to at least act as a god, if she didn't outright become one. Obviously, I'm aiming to take this campaign into higher levels (Not epic. I've never liked epic), and I'm also aiming to work at the speed of plot, instead of setting a deadline for the characters. But if you wanted to see Vol gain some massive deific power, I guess this would be one way to do it. -Battlesmith
rimersh 04-04-07, 01:02 PM	Gods in Eberron... Simple and clear.... yes there are Gods, BUT they MIGHT or might NOT even be real. In Eberron there are RELIGIONS... Can a religion have divine ranks? Yes the FIGURE HEAD of that religion is VOL... So simple answer...we play Eberron here because in this world at least the CHARACTERS are the heros and not the ultimately high level and nigh-on undestructable Quasi NPCS. Please stop trying to make this another Forgotten Realms setting with the corner store God waiting to make the characters the Red headed step children of the world. Hope you all understand me, this is not intended to be the canned world of days gone by but a new challenging world where just maybe strange unexplainable things happpen that might just spawn yet another religion.