Siberys Mark of Making [Archive] - Wizards Community

Siberys Mark of Making [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
orangevoodoo
07-20-07, 03:38 PM I'm having some difficulties with handling the Siberys Mark of Making. True Creation 1 or 2 times /day, caster level 15. So...15 cubic feet of gold. Real and Permanent. Two full adamantine dwarven crafted suits of full plate. Sure you can't make magical things, but you could make all the GP requirements for any magical item, so the caster would only have to come up with XP. Assuming I'm crazy enough to let players have this, I can figure out the value of aforementioned items. But how much "value" does one get for 15 cubic feet of diamond dust? Or platinum earrings, or a 15 cubic foot statue of your favorite person in marble? I understand that a craft check is needed to determine quality of the stuff, but how does quality translate into value on such a large scale? Normally, it'd just be the amount of XP you are willing to spend is the amount of GP you make, but an Heir of Siberys gets True Creation as a Spell-Like ability and thus doesn't pay XP. There seems to be no easy way to adjucate this. Any thoughts? Does anyone know how much gold fits in a cubic foot off the top of their head? Or mithril, adamantium, cold iron, byshik, diamonds, etc? Any help would be appreciated.
Shady314
07-20-07, 04:12 PM Check the errata.
Edymnion
07-20-07, 04:37 PM Check the errata.Yes, the errata corrected this oversight. The Siberys Mark of Making still has the XP cost. Although, honestly, at the level you could even get this ability, it shouldn't be *THAT* overpowering.
DarkWarriorKarg
07-22-07, 11:31 AM The other question is... is this a theoretical question, or is a PC gaining it?

From your writing, it seems that you're worrying about something that's not even close to happening...
Edymnion
07-22-07, 12:22 PM The other question is... is this a theoretical question, or is a PC gaining it?

From your writing, it seems that you're worrying about something that's not even close to happening...Yes, and like I said before, by the time he actually gets the ability to do this, even without the errata drawback, what reason does he really have to do it? He's one of the most powerful people in the world. Even without this, he's already supposed to have the kind of wealth that even KINGS can't dream about, enough money to potentially buy and sell small countries (if there were any in Eberron).

This is the kind of guy that has counciled with Dragons, fought the most horrible beasts in the land, and is likely one of the most recognized faces in Khovaire due to all the press he would be getting. He's likely also built up huge amounts of prestige in his House (especially if he has Favored in House), and as such already has access to virtually any mundane object he could ever want, so is it really so bad to just cut out the middle man and let him make it himself?

Are you honestly afraid that one of the movers and shakers of the world is going to just start selling off stuff instead of going adventuring? If he does, just retire the PC and have them start a new one that still has a reason to adventure.
orangevoodoo
07-22-07, 04:29 PM Ah, missed the errata. Helpful things those. And you have a point, someone at that level is quite powerful and can get nearly any mundane or low magic item fairly easily, but there is a difference between "fairly easily" and "Yes, I'm serious, I'd like to buy several islands. Can I get a discount if I buy a whole chain?" And yes, a character was considering picking up this class.
Edymnion
07-22-07, 06:27 PM And like you said, they still need to make the craft check.
Even if they make 15 cubic feet of diamonds, unless they can make the gemcutting craft check, they're still just going to get ugly rough stones that aren't worth anywhere near as much as cut stones.
Gothic_Demon
07-25-07, 11:22 AM 15 cubic feet of gold or diamonds is great, but what would a character do with it? Carry it all around with them?

How would they use it? "Here barkeep, here's a diamond for the food and I'll just carve some gold off of this here block for the ale..."

Could they trade it? Not likely, as it's not legal tender (not coinage), or not in a useful shape for selling.

Could they give it to the Kundarak bank? Probably not, as the dwarves would start getting rather antsy about someone turning up with that much gold or diamonds every day.

Plus, the reason these things are worth something is because they have a certain scarcity. Once a character starts mass-producing rare items they stop being rare and quickly lose their value.

Mass-produced currency that the crown can't support leads to collapsing markets as prices fluctuate wildly, which leads to hungry peasants and rebellion. I'm sure there are a few powerful organisations would want to put a stopper on PCs creating wealth out of nowhere.
Edymnion
07-25-07, 12:49 PM Could they trade it? Not likely, as it's not legal tender (not coinage), or not in a useful shape for selling.Gold is a trade good. A bar is worth 50 gp, and can be traded for 50 gp worth of goods. It doesn't have to be coin form.
Shady314
07-25-07, 04:09 PM @Gothic_Demon
What would a player do with it? Everything you'd normally do with money. I'd personally buy myself some land. Bribe some important people. Commission some magic items from Cannith etc.

It's really just another possible source of player wealth and I'd adjust the loot/wealth they acquire accordingly.

And it would NOT collapse the "world" economy. Though there really isn't one in Eberron. That always cracks me up. Oh my god they found a large source of valuable items and are now very rich! How will the economy handle this! ;)
Sir Elton
07-25-07, 11:25 PM @Gothic_Demon
And it would NOT collapse the "world" economy. Though there really isn't one in Eberron. That always cracks me up. Oh my god they found a large source of valuable items and are now very rich! How will the economy handle this! ;)

Actually, there is national economies, local economies, and in the case of Khorvaire, a continent wide economy. But because there is no trade agreement with the other continents . . . No world economy.
Shady314
07-26-07, 07:13 AM Actually, there is national economies, local economies, and in the case of Khorvaire, a continent wide economy. But because there is no trade agreement with the other continents . . . No world economy.

Wow that's exactly what I said... No WORLD economy. Double checks... Yep that's what I said all right... so uh thanks for agreeing with me?? :confused: I guess.

While were on the subject though, there are trade agreements with Aerenal and Riedra. And Aerenal and Sarlona have a continent wide economy also. :) It's just that it takes more than that to make a true, world economy, in the sense I think most are imagining when they say it.(Globalisation) But it's really just those pesky Dragons in Argonnessen screwing it all up by technicality.
Gothic_Demon
07-26-07, 08:25 AM Gold is a trade good. A bar is worth 50 gp, and can be traded for 50 gp worth of goods. It doesn't have to be coin form.

True, but (a) gold bars still generally bear a hallmark for people to be sure that the gold is legal and supported (the Kundarak bankers probably do this), and (b) this doesn't change the slow erosion of the economy as gold slowly loses its value because someone is creating half a tonne of it each day.

And it would NOT collapse the "world" economy. Though there really isn't one in Eberron. That always cracks me up. Oh my god they found a large source of valuable items and are now very rich! How will the economy handle this!

I didn't mention the world economy either. :)

The reason was that this is a smaller scale issue. There's only so much wealth being bunged into the local economy that it can support before it begins to burst. If the PCs just wanna horde their gold thats fine, but if they want to start buying things with it soon people will start expecting higher prices (as the value of gold or diamonds goes down), and start running out of things to sell them.
Shady314
07-26-07, 08:29 AM I didn't mention the world economy either. :)
True but you did mention "collapsing markets." I assumed you meant more than the local hamlet's fairgrounds. ;) But there is that damn saying about when someone assumes...

The reason was that this is a smaller scale issue. There's only so much wealth being bunged into the local economy that it can support before it begins to burst. If the PCs just wanna horde their gold thats fine, but if they want to start buying things with it soon people will start expecting higher prices (as the value of gold or diamonds goes down), and start running out of things to sell them.

You are talking about dilution and it causing price inflation. It would make the economy screwy but it wouldn't collapse the market and lead to revolt. It would probably lead to a mass exodus as that farmer takes the crazy amount of gold you paid for a loaf of bread and goes somewhere else where he is now rich.

Anyways it could only happen if the player literally flooded the place with gold just to be a jerk AND the economy was a completely closed one with no way of spreading the wealth into new areas. So long as the player only pays fair market value for all the available goods and material in the area the economy will remain not only stable but quite strong.
Gothic_Demon
07-26-07, 08:48 AM You are talking about dilution and it causing price inflation. It would make the economy screwy but it wouldn't collapse the market and lead to revolt. It would probably lead to a mass exodus as that farmer takes the crazy amount of gold you paid for a loaf of bread and goes somewhere else where he is now rich.

Anyways it could only happen if the player literally flooded the place with gold just to be a jerk AND the economy was a completely closed one with no way of spreading the wealth into new areas. So long as the player only pays fair market value for all the available goods and material in the area the economy will remain not only stable but quite strong.

I agree completely. I think the OP fears that his players are going to abuse it, and as such this would certainly come into play. And not to forget that gold is the least of the OPs worries; as soon as his players figures out he can make half a tonne of Adamantine, Mithral or Diamond every day...

As a side note: gold mines produce an average of 100,000kg of gold per year in our world, and a player who can use this ability once per day could create 500kg per day, or 182,500kg per year. That's quite an overspill of gold.
Edymnion
07-28-07, 09:41 PM True, but (a) gold bars still generally bear a hallmark for people to be sure that the gold is legal and supported (the Kundarak bankers probably do this), and (b) this doesn't change the slow erosion of the economy as gold slowly loses its value because someone is creating half a tonne of it each day.Gold has an intrinsic value, nobody cares where it comes from as long as its purity is of acceptable levels. Gold is gold.

And the second part assumes the player is making gold in a vacume, which they aren't. Think of all the powerful organizations in the setting. Now think what they would do if someone started undermining their wealth and power. Do you honestly think somebody that is actively devaluing the currency of the realm would be allowed to do so, unmolested?

If nothing else, House Kundarak would make them an offer they couldn't refuse. Come work for them and make valuable materials as directed, or deal with the assassins. Someone that did this would never get to the point they could devalue gold, because they would be killed long before it reached that point.
Gothic_Demon
07-30-07, 08:05 AM And the second part assumes the player is making gold in a vacume, which they aren't. Think of all the powerful organizations in the setting. Now think what they would do if someone started undermining their wealth and power. Do you honestly think somebody that is actively devaluing the currency of the realm would be allowed to do so, unmolested?

If nothing else, House Kundarak would make them an offer they couldn't refuse. Come work for them and make valuable materials as directed, or deal with the assassins. Someone that did this would never get to the point they could devalue gold, because they would be killed long before it reached that point.Agreed, as I stated a little lower in my original post.

For the OP: If this was a player in my campaign, my responses would be thus:
a) Assassins and 'offers you cannot refuse' from major houses (esp. Kundarak and Cannith) and from the major criminal networks.
b) An increase in greed and prices for everyone who knows that the player is now stinking rich.
c) Interest from powerful nobles, esp. kings and queens, who want the individual to supply their war effort/rebuilding effort, etc.

Basically, this power becomes a curse as well as a blessing if the PC starts advertising it by using it all the time.
mightyix
08-04-07, 03:06 AM Heck, just having a Syberys mark, you're not going to be able to hide the fact you've got one without really heavy clothing all the time. You're going to be in seriously high demand by your house and won't have time to do anything for yourself without peeving someone of stature.
itraylor
08-05-07, 08:58 AM Having to pay the experience points for the price of the item in gold with the Siberys Mark of Making actually ruined this class for me. I see how overpowering it can be when abused, but while characters of other houses get to use their Siberys mark and capstone ability freely the characters with the Mark of Making don’t, without the expenditure of hard earned experience. Maybe they should have just given them another option aside from True Creation.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
orangevoodoo 07-20-07, 03:38 PM	I'm having some difficulties with handling the Siberys Mark of Making. True Creation 1 or 2 times /day, caster level 15. So...15 cubic feet of gold. Real and Permanent. Two full adamantine dwarven crafted suits of full plate. Sure you can't make magical things, but you could make all the GP requirements for any magical item, so the caster would only have to come up with XP. Assuming I'm crazy enough to let players have this, I can figure out the value of aforementioned items. But how much "value" does one get for 15 cubic feet of diamond dust? Or platinum earrings, or a 15 cubic foot statue of your favorite person in marble? I understand that a craft check is needed to determine quality of the stuff, but how does quality translate into value on such a large scale? Normally, it'd just be the amount of XP you are willing to spend is the amount of GP you make, but an Heir of Siberys gets True Creation as a Spell-Like ability and thus doesn't pay XP. There seems to be no easy way to adjucate this. Any thoughts? Does anyone know how much gold fits in a cubic foot off the top of their head? Or mithril, adamantium, cold iron, byshik, diamonds, etc? Any help would be appreciated.
Shady314 07-20-07, 04:12 PM	Check the errata.
Edymnion 07-20-07, 04:37 PM	Check the errata.Yes, the errata corrected this oversight. The Siberys Mark of Making still has the XP cost. Although, honestly, at the level you could even get this ability, it shouldn't be THAT overpowering.
DarkWarriorKarg 07-22-07, 11:31 AM	The other question is... is this a theoretical question, or is a PC gaining it? From your writing, it seems that you're worrying about something that's not even close to happening...
Edymnion 07-22-07, 12:22 PM	The other question is... is this a theoretical question, or is a PC gaining it? From your writing, it seems that you're worrying about something that's not even close to happening...Yes, and like I said before, by the time he actually gets the ability to do this, even without the errata drawback, what reason does he really have to do it? He's one of the most powerful people in the world. Even without this, he's already supposed to have the kind of wealth that even KINGS can't dream about, enough money to potentially buy and sell small countries (if there were any in Eberron). This is the kind of guy that has counciled with Dragons, fought the most horrible beasts in the land, and is likely one of the most recognized faces in Khovaire due to all the press he would be getting. He's likely also built up huge amounts of prestige in his House (especially if he has Favored in House), and as such already has access to virtually any mundane object he could ever want, so is it really so bad to just cut out the middle man and let him make it himself? Are you honestly afraid that one of the movers and shakers of the world is going to just start selling off stuff instead of going adventuring? If he does, just retire the PC and have them start a new one that still has a reason to adventure.
orangevoodoo 07-22-07, 04:29 PM	Ah, missed the errata. Helpful things those. And you have a point, someone at that level is quite powerful and can get nearly any mundane or low magic item fairly easily, but there is a difference between "fairly easily" and "Yes, I'm serious, I'd like to buy several islands. Can I get a discount if I buy a whole chain?" And yes, a character was considering picking up this class.
Edymnion 07-22-07, 06:27 PM	And like you said, they still need to make the craft check. Even if they make 15 cubic feet of diamonds, unless they can make the gemcutting craft check, they're still just going to get ugly rough stones that aren't worth anywhere near as much as cut stones.
Gothic_Demon 07-25-07, 11:22 AM	15 cubic feet of gold or diamonds is great, but what would a character do with it? Carry it all around with them? How would they use it? "Here barkeep, here's a diamond for the food and I'll just carve some gold off of this here block for the ale..." Could they trade it? Not likely, as it's not legal tender (not coinage), or not in a useful shape for selling. Could they give it to the Kundarak bank? Probably not, as the dwarves would start getting rather antsy about someone turning up with that much gold or diamonds every day. Plus, the reason these things are worth something is because they have a certain scarcity. Once a character starts mass-producing rare items they stop being rare and quickly lose their value. Mass-produced currency that the crown can't support leads to collapsing markets as prices fluctuate wildly, which leads to hungry peasants and rebellion. I'm sure there are a few powerful organisations would want to put a stopper on PCs creating wealth out of nowhere.
Edymnion 07-25-07, 12:49 PM	Could they trade it? Not likely, as it's not legal tender (not coinage), or not in a useful shape for selling.Gold is a trade good. A bar is worth 50 gp, and can be traded for 50 gp worth of goods. It doesn't have to be coin form.
Shady314 07-25-07, 04:09 PM	@Gothic_Demon What would a player do with it? Everything you'd normally do with money. I'd personally buy myself some land. Bribe some important people. Commission some magic items from Cannith etc. It's really just another possible source of player wealth and I'd adjust the loot/wealth they acquire accordingly. And it would NOT collapse the "world" economy. Though there really isn't one in Eberron. That always cracks me up. Oh my god they found a large source of valuable items and are now very rich! How will the economy handle this! ;)
Sir Elton 07-25-07, 11:25 PM	@Gothic_Demon And it would NOT collapse the "world" economy. Though there really isn't one in Eberron. That always cracks me up. Oh my god they found a large source of valuable items and are now very rich! How will the economy handle this! ;) Actually, there is national economies, local economies, and in the case of Khorvaire, a continent wide economy. But because there is no trade agreement with the other continents . . . No world economy.
Shady314 07-26-07, 07:13 AM	Actually, there is national economies, local economies, and in the case of Khorvaire, a continent wide economy. But because there is no trade agreement with the other continents . . . No world economy. Wow that's exactly what I said... No WORLD economy. Double checks... Yep that's what I said all right... so uh thanks for agreeing with me?? :confused: I guess. While were on the subject though, there are trade agreements with Aerenal and Riedra. And Aerenal and Sarlona have a continent wide economy also. :) It's just that it takes more than that to make a true, world economy, in the sense I think most are imagining when they say it.(Globalisation) But it's really just those pesky Dragons in Argonnessen screwing it all up by technicality.
Gothic_Demon 07-26-07, 08:25 AM	Gold is a trade good. A bar is worth 50 gp, and can be traded for 50 gp worth of goods. It doesn't have to be coin form. True, but (a) gold bars still generally bear a hallmark for people to be sure that the gold is legal and supported (the Kundarak bankers probably do this), and (b) this doesn't change the slow erosion of the economy as gold slowly loses its value because someone is creating half a tonne of it each day. And it would NOT collapse the "world" economy. Though there really isn't one in Eberron. That always cracks me up. Oh my god they found a large source of valuable items and are now very rich! How will the economy handle this! I didn't mention the world economy either. :) The reason was that this is a smaller scale issue. There's only so much wealth being bunged into the local economy that it can support before it begins to burst. If the PCs just wanna horde their gold thats fine, but if they want to start buying things with it soon people will start expecting higher prices (as the value of gold or diamonds goes down), and start running out of things to sell them.
Shady314 07-26-07, 08:29 AM	I didn't mention the world economy either. :) True but you did mention "collapsing markets." I assumed you meant more than the local hamlet's fairgrounds. ;) But there is that damn saying about when someone assumes... The reason was that this is a smaller scale issue. There's only so much wealth being bunged into the local economy that it can support before it begins to burst. If the PCs just wanna horde their gold thats fine, but if they want to start buying things with it soon people will start expecting higher prices (as the value of gold or diamonds goes down), and start running out of things to sell them. You are talking about dilution and it causing price inflation. It would make the economy screwy but it wouldn't collapse the market and lead to revolt. It would probably lead to a mass exodus as that farmer takes the crazy amount of gold you paid for a loaf of bread and goes somewhere else where he is now rich. Anyways it could only happen if the player literally flooded the place with gold just to be a jerk AND the economy was a completely closed one with no way of spreading the wealth into new areas. So long as the player only pays fair market value for all the available goods and material in the area the economy will remain not only stable but quite strong.
Gothic_Demon 07-26-07, 08:48 AM	You are talking about dilution and it causing price inflation. It would make the economy screwy but it wouldn't collapse the market and lead to revolt. It would probably lead to a mass exodus as that farmer takes the crazy amount of gold you paid for a loaf of bread and goes somewhere else where he is now rich. Anyways it could only happen if the player literally flooded the place with gold just to be a jerk AND the economy was a completely closed one with no way of spreading the wealth into new areas. So long as the player only pays fair market value for all the available goods and material in the area the economy will remain not only stable but quite strong. I agree completely. I think the OP fears that his players are going to abuse it, and as such this would certainly come into play. And not to forget that gold is the least of the OPs worries; as soon as his players figures out he can make half a tonne of Adamantine, Mithral or Diamond every day... As a side note: gold mines produce an average of 100,000kg of gold per year in our world, and a player who can use this ability once per day could create 500kg per day, or 182,500kg per year. That's quite an overspill of gold.
Edymnion 07-28-07, 09:41 PM	True, but (a) gold bars still generally bear a hallmark for people to be sure that the gold is legal and supported (the Kundarak bankers probably do this), and (b) this doesn't change the slow erosion of the economy as gold slowly loses its value because someone is creating half a tonne of it each day.Gold has an intrinsic value, nobody cares where it comes from as long as its purity is of acceptable levels. Gold is gold. And the second part assumes the player is making gold in a vacume, which they aren't. Think of all the powerful organizations in the setting. Now think what they would do if someone started undermining their wealth and power. Do you honestly think somebody that is actively devaluing the currency of the realm would be allowed to do so, unmolested? If nothing else, House Kundarak would make them an offer they couldn't refuse. Come work for them and make valuable materials as directed, or deal with the assassins. Someone that did this would never get to the point they could devalue gold, because they would be killed long before it reached that point.
Gothic_Demon 07-30-07, 08:05 AM	And the second part assumes the player is making gold in a vacume, which they aren't. Think of all the powerful organizations in the setting. Now think what they would do if someone started undermining their wealth and power. Do you honestly think somebody that is actively devaluing the currency of the realm would be allowed to do so, unmolested? If nothing else, House Kundarak would make them an offer they couldn't refuse. Come work for them and make valuable materials as directed, or deal with the assassins. Someone that did this would never get to the point they could devalue gold, because they would be killed long before it reached that point.Agreed, as I stated a little lower in my original post. For the OP: If this was a player in my campaign, my responses would be thus: a) Assassins and 'offers you cannot refuse' from major houses (esp. Kundarak and Cannith) and from the major criminal networks. b) An increase in greed and prices for everyone who knows that the player is now stinking rich. c) Interest from powerful nobles, esp. kings and queens, who want the individual to supply their war effort/rebuilding effort, etc. Basically, this power becomes a curse as well as a blessing if the PC starts advertising it by using it all the time.
mightyix 08-04-07, 03:06 AM	Heck, just having a Syberys mark, you're not going to be able to hide the fact you've got one without really heavy clothing all the time. You're going to be in seriously high demand by your house and won't have time to do anything for yourself without peeving someone of stature.
itraylor 08-05-07, 08:58 AM	Having to pay the experience points for the price of the item in gold with the Siberys Mark of Making actually ruined this class for me. I see how overpowering it can be when abused, but while characters of other houses get to use their Siberys mark and capstone ability freely the characters with the Mark of Making don’t, without the expenditure of hard earned experience. Maybe they should have just given them another option aside from True Creation.